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Pace stated the bike had been used on a couple of rides, but only by them. Pretty much a photoshoot bike.
The condition backed that up. It could have passed as an ex-display.
Regarding the rotor thickness, I was running SRAM HS2 rotors, which are 2.0mm rather than the standard 1.8mm.
Been thinking about this a bit more - especially OP's two photos showing the same mounting 'braze on' but used in two different styles.
I've also been looking for the 'the frame builders Post Mount attaching guide' but struggled to find much beyond PVD - maybe MickR knows?
http://www.peterverdone.com/disc-brake-mounting-systems/
My initial thoughts on previous pages are that the less substantial leading arm of Pace's design is causing the vibration/oscillation and that the second photo frame builders solution was better.
However! One of the those mounts must be incorrect from an angular position (probably bike/photo #2). The reason being that as larger discs are fitted and adapters required to move the caliper outwards to suit - if the angle of the mount on the frame isn't correct then the spaced away caliper won't be in the correct position relative to the disc.
It's likely the Pace mount is correctly mounted/angled and that 'clocking' it as per photo #2 is incorrect from an angle point (?) although it would result in a more substantial mounted caliper with a longer weld.
I've not been able to find the braze on but my knowledge only extends to stuck in the 1980's Ceeway and Paragon parts porn.
It's worth noting the 2nd picture I posted is from a frame builder that specs that mount as being 180mm only.
So additional mounts won't work because, as you've rightly noted, the angle and position is likely to be off.
That makes sense then - #2 photo has rotated the mount to remove any possibility of chatter at the expense of it only ever working for a 180mm disc.
Pace has fitted it correctly but it's probably not the best design of braze on available - see Paragon.
From what I can tell...that's correct.
But as it's a custom build, not production run, it's likely the customer has specd the frame with that in mind.
I'd have zero issues with any of my bikes being 180mm rear only.
I've got what appears to be the same brake mount on my custom Marino frame.
It's welded on in a far more sensible looking way over a larger area to transfer all the forces over a bigger area of the seat stay.
It runs a 180 rotor with no adaptor but currently got it running a 203 with adaptor.
I live and ride in the Tweed Valley so steep is normal.
No vibrations of any kind with several different brakes on it.
To me I know which one looks like the better way of attaching the mount...
Spread the load and put a brace in the right place to spread it further on to the chainstay.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/stu-b/53532648891/in/dateposted/
My thoughts too.
And then the bridge/stay between the chainstay and seatstay spread that braking load even further. As shown on the Marino.
Surely the bridge/stay between the chainstay and seatstay on the Pace can't be doing anything with the front end of the brake mount up in the air?
Exactly.
Even on a cheap assed Marino.
All the same bits just joined together in a better way.
The mount looks to be available at Ceeway so will be used by plenty of people. If there is an issue then it is the attachment method - unfortunately not easily changed if you already have a batch of painted frames.
If it was a car manufacturer they'd first look at FEA, but it could also be practically investigated by an accelerometer and impact hammer to determine the natural frequency. Then fit a number of tri-ax accelerometers, log some data during the event and perform a modal analysis / make some nice animations to show what is happening. All of this is a bit out of budget for a small UK frame seller.
ISO is easy - it is basically three radial dimensions and all the rotor size adjustment is sorted by the brake manufacturer. I make so few frames, dropouts are just designed for each one (particularly to suit the seatstay angle) and then zapped out. It is one piece including the disc mount so can never be fitted out of position.
And don't worry, SRAM is coming with Universal Brake Mount.....
https://www.pinkbike.com/photo/27666989/
It does look a bit flimsy and hence I could see how it might resonate under breaking. My RC529 feels completely solid under braking but it’s it a much more solid mounting system
Thanks OP for the post and replies.
It was on my list along with the Mason Raw (so expensive - I know UK manufacturers) and Fairlight Holt (tyre clearance issue as previously read on here).
My Marino uses the same mount, but look how it's attached - this is with a 220mm rotor. Just left of shot, there's a bracing tube between the stays too, to provide additional support:
Thank you! Been so pleased with it, took some work getting the design spot on, Marino was so good to work with. He helped with some little tweaks around the shock mount and those reinforcements around the rear triangle. A bit off topic but I'd thoroughly recommend him.
@beanieripper Did or has your riding buddy made Pace aware of this?
Does it still count as 'ex demo' if its been sent to a customer, ridden and then returned?
@BadlyWiredDog - That'd be a hard pass from me.
We could all club together and buy it as a forum bike. What could possibly go wrong?
Can't see the problem myself. You said it was virtually unridden, you didn't use it much and basically demo'd it then gave it back. It has a significant discount over new and has seen less action than many ex-demo bikes so it might be time to put your pitchfork down?
The big question is what frame are you going for next? 529?
I think it's time to gracefully retire this thread.
You've shared your experience of the frame. Pace have accepted a return and given you a refund.
It might be a wider design/engineering problem. Or it might be a one-off ... There doesn't seem to be lots of internet chatter by lots of other people complaining of the same experience. And now, you're just idly checking out the Pace website and find they have the temerity to put this frame up for sale again, I mean, how dare they???
Time to draw a line and move on I reckon.
As I suggested earlier, I'll bet Pace absolutely love the OP.
Wow.
This is becoming quasi-stalkerish now, lol
Time to move on.
Glad to see your both still here 'idly checking in'
Seems to be a slight hint of victim blaming and quasi-witchhuntish posts against the OP in this thread.
If I were Pace I'd be more concerned about the brake mount than what I thought of a particular customer. In fact I'd love to see Adrian explain why it's designed like this. If a frame resonates to the degree I've experienced in some cases it renders the brake unusable and the bike dangerous to ride, so it's fairly serious. It can literally take away 90% of the braking power, nevermind the noise.
I fully support posts warning of problems with products. To be honest I'm getting fed up with buying stuff and finding it's crap and not a mention of issues anywhere online. Or worse still the Pinkbike way of doing reviews, mention what's wrong with a product, but only when the next generation comes out and fixes it.
In fact I’d love to see Adrian explain why it’s designed like this
It shouldn’t be forgotten that Pace reported they couldn’t repeat the problem with the frame nor does there seem to be any reports of other frames doing the same thing. I’ve watched Guy Kesteven’s review and the one he rode was as quiet as a church mouse. Why wouldn’t they put it back up for sale if that were the case?
I’m not saying the OP didn’t have a problem … but Pace are saying it wasn’t a problem with the frame therefore have nothing to report other then to say how well they looked after an unhappy customer.
I did take a screenshot and zoom it but then despite 30 years in the software game failed to add the image to this post.
Anyway, link above with the only view I can find of the NDS (it was tricky to find a view that wasn't of the handlebars) - the Guy Kesteven 'review' model seems to have to rear mount much more securely welded to the frame - more like the examples from other brands etc posted here. IMO would explain his lack of issues.
This thread now 3rd result on my Google search for 'pace rc429' btw, so mission accomplished OP!
Anyway, link above with the only view I can find of the NDS (it was tricky to find a view that wasn’t of the handlebars) – the Guy Kesteven ‘review’ model seems to have to rear mount much more securely welded to the frame – more like the examples from other brands etc posted here. IMO would explain his lack of issues.
Yep, looks very different - the same (same bike maybe??) as the full bike pics on their website - the disc mount is definitely mounted differently to the one the OP bought. Thought it might be a size thing - some frames have the mount welded on differently to deal with the different angle of the seat stays? Doubt it though... "ex-demo" = prototype/photo mule?
Who actually manufacturers frames for Pace these days?
I mean, if they haven't absolutely nailed down both the orientation and weld area in their spec, and only included the x/y/z of the two posts, it's quite feasible that whoever actually welded the frame together just did whatever their stage drawings and manuf engineer told them to. Or as above it's one mount for all sizes, which with the conflicting needs for seatstay orientation and PM geometry means that you end up with this gap/badly mounted adaptor.
Interesting, that is quite a difference.
Even more interesting, Adrian has just put a short or whatever they're called on FB of him night riding last night on a 429 and clearly shows the rear brake mount with a Hope 4 pot brake and the mount is the same as the OPs!
Can we just arrange a list of all the brands that it's not allowable to criticise on here to make it easier for newbies to not anger the regulars?
Nobody should be untouchable, and I'm very glad that posts like the OPs exist.
I'm glad you've finally got it sorted dude, crap situation.
, I have my money back in my account.
Strange, that was the final point of my saga with them with some RC37s back in the late 90s.
This thread has really filled me with confidence about my pre-order RC429 frame!
I can't comment on the frame yet as it was due to be here in November, then two different times in December, then it's been stuck in customs which, bizarrely, was followed by issues in the paintshop, then being stuck in customs again, then it was here last Friday but wasn't and now it's going to be here next Tuesday!
The communication from Pace has been dire and the only time I hear anything is when I actively chase them for updates.
It's going to be my first Pace frame and it would be fair to say that it'll also be my last. I can't stand dealing with companies with shitty customer service.
Who actually manufacturers frames for Pace these days?
Same people who do the new Cotic Solaris isn't it, at least for the RC429? Certainly built in Central/Eastern Europe.
For a little bit of balance the customer service I had with my RC627 was great. Quick email replies and phone calls answered by the organ grinders. I'd have another, if they make the XL head tubes a bit bigger.
I'm having a very similar sounding problem to yours with my 429.
I had thought it was brake related, but I'm wondering otherwise now.
Have you posted here? Pace RC627 / RC529 / RC429 | Facebook
For a little bit of balance the customer service I had with my RC627 was great.
Yeah, i had great service from them with some ancient forks that they found some spare parts for. But i've not bought anything from them for probably 20 years... and i even used to occasionally run into them on the trails around York on their prototypes BITD.
Things change though!
@nerds so the key here would be - show us a picture of your frame, and how the brake mount casting is welded on!
Got to say, that just instantly looks like something that's going to resonate and flex (and eventually crack) with the cantilevered mounting just attached with a relatively short weld in the middle. If someone presented me with something like that in my line of work, I'd need a LOT of real-world instrumented measurements of stresses, and a good hard look at the quality + QA of welding especially where it starts and ends, before I'd agree to it !
bitmuddytoday
Seems to be a slight hint of victim blaming and quasi-witchhuntish posts against the OP in this thread.
To be fair the OP came across as a having a very pointy finger, appeared to have never considered that he might have overlooked anything in the assembly and that everything was Pace's fault. Then he sets up a post on here and digs his heels in. A few keyboard engineers decide that it "looks a bit bendy" and off we go. A Pace bashing.
Some of us were playing devils advocate and suggesting that maybe the bike was fine and maybe he should have looked inward. ESPECIALLY as the frame had already gone back and there was no way of checking so this was all hearsay.
Balance.
For a little bit of balance the customer service I had with my RC627 was great.
Is Pace customer service under question in this thread? I've read they engaged with OP, took return of his frame, reported they could not replicate the problem (i.e. no fault found in frame) yet still offered a full refund.
That seems good customer service to me. What more would be expected of them?
As I've said in this thread before - the OPs findings might make me question buying an RC429 but would certainly not discourage me from buying from Pace.
I have a RC529 and have nothing but good things to say about the buying experience and I really like the frame, I did try to sell the frame on here because I needed to make space for a new gravel bike but there wasn't any interest so it will be getting built back up again.
keyboard engineers
I like the idea that posters on here can be dismissed as 'keyboard engineers' when you have little to no idea what knowledge or experience they may have to base their opinions on.
I love the fact that someone who suggests the spacers on the caliper are in the wrong place when they're not uses the phrase keyboard engineers as an insult. 😀
Is Pace customer service under question in this thread?
It has been, yes.