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Some of you may recall that I've been trying to solve a bit of a mystery with my Flaremax, namely why it seems to be so slow uphill. The great god Strava reliably informs me that I'm consistently slower up hills that I was on various other bikes in the past, despite all the other indicators suggesting that, if anything, I'm a bit fitter than I was.
At the end of the last thread on this I was looking suspiciously at the shock. I tried putting more air in and giving it a service, but to no avail.
Tyres were always an obvious place to look, but I was reluctant to buy a new one and then find I didn't like it. The RockRazor (2.35 speedgrip) and Magic Mary (2.35 soft) are also a fairly standard combo for a bike like this. But I was clearing out the shed last week and found some tyres that I'd forgotten I had. These were a Racing Ralph and a Nobby Nic. Both 2.35" and in the old pacestar compound. So, I figured I might as well try them.
First surprise was the weight. The Ralph only saved 110g over the RockRazor, but the Nic saved a surprising 375g over the Mary. So that was 475g of rotating weight dropped and presumably a faster compound on the front to boot.
The ride at the weekend only included one decent climb that I've done multiple times, but I was a full 2 min and 17s faster than I was on the same bike with the older tyres last week. Even more surprising was that I knocked 1min 15s off my previous PR set back in 2014. Result.
Although that was just one climb it was also really noticeable how much fresher I felt at the end of the ride than I had felt on a similar ride the previous week. Riding up and down mountains had basically become fun again rather than just a slog.
Of course, in theory, I'd also lost a lot of grip and I think I could feel this, but not as much as I expected. I think the reason for that is pretty simple, I just don't ride that hard. I enjoy the challenge of getting down a descent, but care very little about the speed going down and would far rather ride something slowly and in control than fast and out of control. So I doubt I'm getting close to the limits of the Nic let alone the Mary.
Now, to be clear, I'm not recommending that anyone else does this. I'm sure that most people using a Mary (or similar) need that grip and a lighter tyre would ruin the bike for them. But it's worth being honest about how you ride and what you really need. If you don't need heavy tyres they can really suck the joy out of a hilly XC ride. It was also a bit of a shock to me how much heavier my tyres had become over the years without me really noticing. I used to think my old 26" Hans Dampf was a decently aggressive front tyre, but at 765g it now seems positively anorexic.
Just had a quick browse on the Schwalbe site and the lightest Magic Mary 29er I can find (2.4" super trail casing) weighs 1220g. That is only 70g lighter that the 4.8" Jumbo Jim tyres I used to run on my fatbike. If you go for the super gravity casing they weigh more than the fatbike tyres.
That’s Interesting!! I’ve got a 2.5 on my MTB, which isn’t ever going to be lightweight XC bike!) and a Ive though about a 2.3 for the front. It’s just a a fair few Bob for me to spend on a tyre on on a hunch! 🤦🏻♂️
Your 'heavy' set (Mary + Rock Razor) is my lightweight summer set 🙂
It’s just a a fair few Bob for me to spend on a tyre on on a hunch!
Yes, that's why it took me so long to get round to trying something so obvious really. I didn't want to blow £50 on a lighter tyre and then find that I'd totally ruined the bike.
Your ‘heavy’ set (Mary + Rock Razor) is my lightweight summer set
Yes, it's very much horses for courses isn't it. If you ride them the way they were designed to be ridden (or you are fit enough not to notice the extra weight/drag) then they are great tyres. I was just surprised that "normal" trail tyres had got so much heavier over the past 5 years or so. But I guess that's because "normal" trail riding has changed too. If we are riding longer slacker bikes designed to go faster and plough through stuff more easily then it stands to reason that we are going to need heavier tyres.
I like the Racing Ralph as a rear tyre in the dry on reasonably hard surfaces. It's much grippier than I expected. In the wet, different story, but that's not what it's designed for.
Mary is perfect for things like BPW, but since I put a Spesh Eliminator GRID on the front and BPW is out of the question (boohoo!) I don't miss ol Mary.
As someone who for several years ran MM front and rear, having the Big Betty on the back has made a noticeable improvement to rolling resistance, I've actually just picked another BB to try on the front to see if it improves the rolling more, I've found no difference between the MM and BB for grip and braking on the rear so far.
Yup, I've got massive #ENDURO tyres as that's what the bike came with. But realistically for Swinley April-September a semi (or actual) slick works really well on the rear, and the front doesn't need much more. It's probably even counter productive most of the time as there's only a handful of loose sections where any tyre will dig in.
Yet everyone has DHFs or MM as part of the uniform.
Mary's a brilliant tyre but it's way on the spiky end of "allrounder", much further and it'd be basically in the same camp as a Shorty or similar. It's kind of become a default choice I guess because it can do pretty much anything, but yep a lot of the time it's too much and sometimes it's not even as grippy as a less spiky, more traditional allrounder is.
From memory you are just looking at climb times, no power or HR data, correct?
This thread is very much of interest to me. I have recently acquired a Bird Aeris with a 2.3 Maxxis DHF Minion on the front and a 2.3 Maxxis Aggressor on the back and want a set of new tires for the summer and because both tires have thorn holes.
Purely for looks as the Aeris looks undertired on the 2.3 Maxxis I was going to get a 2.6 Schawalbe Magic Mary on the Front and a 2.4 Hans Dampf on the rear....but I dont want the climbing prowess to be hampered...
I am nowhere near the limit of the DHF Minion at the moment so are there any fairly lightweight trail tires at 2.6 and 2.4 width that wont add too much extra weight??
One thing that makes me laugh is that people used to look at my fatbike with its great big tractor tyres and assume that it was heavy and slow. In fact it was neither. Nowadays lots of people are riding round in trail bikes with heavier tyres than that fatbike and nobody bats an eyelid.
From memory you are just looking at climb times, no power or HR data, correct?
That's right and I'm certainly a long way from proving anything at the moment. Personally, rather that trying to control all the variables (which is almost impossible) I prefer to collect enough samples that everything else averages out. So I'm pretty confident that the data I have strongly suggests that the FlareMax with the previous tyres is slower up hills than any of my previous bikes as that's based on hundreds of samples up dozens of hills. I can't really say that knocking 475g off the tyre weight accounts for all of the difference that I saw in that one climb. In fact I'm sure it doesn't and only time will tell what the real effect is. But looking back at all the tyres that I've used on various mountain bikes over the past ten years there is a general trend of them getting heavier and heavier despite the fact that I'm not really riding trails that are much (if any) tougher.
I used to notice it going from winter tyres (Shorty and a Minion) to Bontrager XR5 in a 2.3.
I always waited until the trails had dried and were running harder.
The biggest difference was being able to keep up with friends who used to drop me on climbs.
The bike always felt livelier with the lighter tyres, but there’s something to be said for the front grip from the Shorty when it’s muddy.
I was always amazed at the amount of slop/clag/tech pro XC riders seems to tackle with relative confort on effectively a semi-slick. Then I rode a 40mm G-one around some local single track on my old gravel bike and a lightbulb moment happened. Had way more grip than I thought possible, but so much more roll too.
Looking at going full XC for the new Sherpa when it arrives, for late spring - autumnn anyway (tho probably with a cushcore xc, still paranoid!)
I can’t really say that knocking 475g off the tyre weight accounts for all of the difference that I saw in that one climb
It didn't, unless the climb was many hours long. Knocking over a minute off a PB is not going to happen just because of 500g tyre difference as you have accepted anyway and after 10 more rides of the same climb it won't suggest that.
I used to use Maxxis Larsens back in the 26" days, they were damn good all year, except for a on the slippiest mud.
Purely for looks as the Aeris looks undertired on the 2.3 Maxxis I was going to get a 2.6 Schawalbe Magic Mary on the Front and a 2.4 Hans Dampf on the rear….but I dont want the climbing prowess to be hampered…
I am nowhere near the limit of the DHF Minion at the moment so are there any fairly lightweight trail tires at 2.6 and 2.4 width that wont add too much extra weight??
My Aether now has a 2.5 DHF on the front and 2.4wt Dissector on the back. The DHF has been my front tyre for 2-3 seasons of the 4 for a number of years now. When it gets a bit too sloppy for that I’ve got a 2.6” Hillbilly for one bike and a 2.6” Magic Mary for the other at the front.
The dissector is new - it replaces an aggressor effectively - it seemed to roll pretty nicely yesterday on a 40km / 975m of climbing ride I did. It also kept going through mud better than I expected.
Although I do have a 2.6” Slaughter to try when it gets really dry.
My hardtail has a Forekaster 2.6” on the back - that has also surpassed my expectations in recent mud and rolls fairly fast.
just swapped from my winter shorty/minion combo to my summer ardent/ikon combo.
bike feels positively spritely. I'm sure I'll regret it when the weather turns later in the week.
You are quite right @kerley There are various online calculators that can probably tell you what knocking 500g off your tyre weight should save you on a climb. I've not looked but I'm sure it's much less than the 10% I saw on that single climb. Of course it's not just weight. The pacestar Nic has less drag (grip) than the soft Mary too, but I'm sure you are right. Given a few more data points, the difference will be a lot less. The interesting thing will be to see whether it persists at all.
There is certainly a psychological factor at work here too. A bike/wheel that feels more lively does encourage me to push harder and there is a point at which things become enough of a chore that they stop being fun and I "give in".
While the PR was nice, what was more encouraging was that I enjoyed the ride. Recently I've been finding that rides over about 20 miles and 3,000' of climbing have just felt like a slog, which is annoying as they were the rides I liked best in the past. Last weekend's ride was only 18 miles and 2,400' of climb, but I finished feeling fresh and up for more, which was encouraging. But as you say, only time will tell.
There's definitely something to be said for picking the right tyres for the job... In the current climes of people deliberately overbiking themselves for most of their riding (often with electric assistance), the default to grippiest tyres that they can find for all conditions can make things a real slog at times if you're not going full bore all the time.
I run a Ralph/Ray combo on my XC bike in the summer (albeit with a tyre insert in the rear cos I'm still fat and clumsy), and that setup is a hell of a lot quicker to get up to speed than a Mary/Betty combo (although the Betty is remarkably fast rolling for what it is) on mt trail bike.
Got the latest Nobby Nic in Super Trail Addix Grip compound (orange stripe) on the rear of my trail bike at the moment in place of Big Betty... It's quick! Not quite Rock Razor fast, but very quick for what it is. Grip is good too, not quite the edge bite or braking grip of a Betty, but a good step up from the old Nobby Nic.
Did a well known route the other day and was also surprised how much more draggy the Shorty on the front was. (glad I had it, it was horrendous conditions) but lordy that's a draggy tyre. I'm always surprised at the difference a lighter tyre makes
Props on your Strava KOM though, a minute out of any climb is cause for celebration. Regardless of the tyre combo, you're clearly doing something right in training, well done!
There is certainly a psychological factor at work here too. A bike/wheel that feels more lively does encourage me to push harder and there is a point at which things become enough of a chore that they stop being fun and I “give in”.
Agree with that. I don't even bother trying to sprint up road hills on MTB whereas on a bike with road tyres there seems a lot more point to it.
Thanks @nickc Not a KOM though. Those days are long gone. I have to content myself with PRs these days. But beating a time that I set in 2014 is two fingers at the grim reaper.
Yes but it's not just weight but also tyre compound.
When I had a Trek Stache running with a 3.25 Vee Bulldozer on the front and a Vitorria Bombolloni 3.0 on the back I was utterly amazed how well it climbed and handled in general. I expected it to be draggy and slow and it was neither.
I bet you're pedalling harder because you're feeling the bike respond more positively, less like you're fighting inertia. I'm sure this is also the reason I pedal harder on my ebike because it bloody flies when you put some effort in, and also why I like how my hardtail responds so instantly.
Cotic recently started offering some much lighter / quicker rolling tyres than their usual WTB options, on the grounds that they're too much tyre for quick a few places/riders. Tyres are a big part of how a bike behaves!
Yes, I'd agree with both of those points. Knocking a minute off a ten minute climb isn't simply down to weight or drag and means that I put more effort in. But why did I put more effort in? Part of the answer is because it felt like I was getting some reward.
Tyres can certainly transform a bike and I'm certainly guilty of feeling constrained in my tyre choice. A trail bike should have trail tyres, but what is a trail bike? When I bought my 2013 Five I thought that was an aggressive trail bike and at the time so did most people. Now its short reach and 67 degree head angle makes it look more like an XC bike. Anyway, the point is that I should be picking the tyres to suit how I actually ride and not how I think I should ride.
Anyway, the point is that I should be picking the tyres to suit how I actually ride and not how I think I should ride.
Nail hit firmly and squarely on the head there... 👍🏻
I was tempted to fit some beefier tyres on my XC bike, I know it would make it more capable. But I bought that bike specifically to get some decent XC miles in on it, and whilst I can't get the same edge bite out of a Ray/Ralph that I can a Mary/Betty combo, they're more capable in the rough stuff than they look, and are significantly lighter and faster elsewhere.
Anyway, the point is that I should be picking the tyres to suit how I actually ride and not how I think I should ride.
I agree.
I would say the same for a lot of bikes/bike components.
I fitted a 2.8 Vigilante on my bike today. That is phat grippy rubber.
roverpig
Full MemberAnyway, the point is that I should be picking the tyres to suit how I actually ride and not how I think I should ride.
Yeeesss. Mostly. Unless you actually plan to start riding how you think you should ride, in which case having a bit more tyre is probably a good idea (especially if taking on new challenges, you don't want to have any extra worries or handicaps). So I guess, I'd say keep 'em in case.
I guess that’s the point @Northwind I’ve kept these tyres on thinking that next week I might ride something that justifies them, but meanwhile they just suck some of the fun out of what I actually do ride. I must admit that I didn’t realise they were quite as heavy as they are either. But they’ll sit in the shed now, so they are still there if I do summon up the courage to ride those tougher lines.
I was running a Hans Dampf up front on my Solaris and changed it for a MM for winter, and moved the HD to the back. I'd started riding some more gnar stuff again so wanted more front end grip. Bike was Instantly more sluggish and felt much slowwer on the flat or uphill. Down was fine but anything flat or up was a chore.
In the end I didn't end up using it much over winter, so it was a bit pointless and I need to change the tyres back round now its drying up again.
I know what the op means. I have a Flaremax too and it came with WTB Vigilantes with the tough casing. They're 1200g, so the swap to Bontrager XR4 front and XR3 rear was very noticeable, though I think it may have had as much to do with a decrease in rolling resistance as it has with weight. They don't lack grip and the more rounded profile makes the bike more lively. I'm not especially heavy or or fast so can get away with lighter tyres, though I did puncture the rear twice last year on rocky trails but I was probably being a little optimistic with how low I could go on pressure.
I've just had a look back at some of the tyres that I used to ride and it would seem that it's not just a case of me picking heavier tyres, the tyres have also become heavier.
A few years ago I was using a 29x2.35 Hans Dampf (in the softer trailstar compound) on the front of my trail bike. As far as I can tell that weighed 850g in the snakeskin version.
The current equivalent Hans Dampf (29x2.35 in addix soft with super trail carcass, the lightest option they currently offer) is 1075g
So it looks like the same tyre, is marketed for the same purpose and if you weren't paying attention you might not realise that it had gained 225g over the years.
I'm sure many would say that the current version is a better tyre than the old one and it is, if by better you mean more grip and fewer punctures. It might even roll better on a roller in the lab, but there is no getting away from the fact that it's a fair chunk heavier.
Even "dropping" to a soft nobby nic only gets you down to 1045g. As far as I can tell Schwalbe no longer make an 850g 29er in a soft compound. I guess there just isn't a market for them, which is a shame as I don't think I ever punctured my old trailstar hans dampf but I did appreciate the extra grip from the softer compound on the front.
Personally I don't mind the odd puncture. I currently carry a tubeless repair thing, a spare tube, a pump, some stick on patches and a tyre boot. I've not used any of these on the trail for years*. If I'm puncturing every couple of rides then I'll switch to something heavier, but I don't need to lug around something that is so heavy that I never puncture.
*At least not on the MTB. I have on the gravel bike, but that runs light tyres and I'm still only averaging a couple of punctures a year.
I noticed in a couple of Pinkbike field tests (the ones where they didn't have 'control' tyres) that they were faster everywhere on less chunky tyred bikes. One was a hardtail and they seemed kinda surprised it was the fastest (or 2nd) descender vs some fullys, and another was a bike they seemed to think felt not that great...again surprised it was one of the fastest downhill. In both cases the 'surprising' bikes had smaller tyres (Forekasters and Trail Boss F/R) against bikes with wide trail Minions etc, and I can't help but feel it wasn't a coincidence. It wasn't a proper DH track they were on, so rolling speed probably won out vs. a bit of confidence in the corners.
I've been running Magic Mary/Dampf on my hardtail and while it's reassuring, it deffo feels slow on anything not steep and downhill, it's less fun just razzing about the woods or on flow trails, and not really any good (like me) for messing around on pump tracks etc. Am going to try some zippier tyres I reckon.. going to try a Kenda Pinner on the front with a 2nd hand Rekon at the back.
I use a Magic Mary Super Gravity Addix Soft 2.4 up front for the peaks. I think this is probably the best type of tyre for all the classic peaks descents or is STW being its usual contrary self?
but there is no getting away from the fact that it’s a fair chunk heavier.
Yep, most bits of bike are getting a bit heavier I think, and I'd be surprised that a noticeable decline is stuff breaking isn't partly a result. This forum (not so long ago) was filled to brim with people trying to justify (or complain about) why the £million pound part they just bought that was bust again.
I think we now have bikes that are fit for purpose. Strava (your PR notwithstanding 🙂 ) be damned
I'm not particularly wedded to aggressive tread patterns in the summer and I like the feeling that a tyre is rolling faster (he says, in the process of fitting a 2.6 Vittoria Mazza) but I do find in summer I want more puncture resistance. And I really don't want to have to increase pressure over what feels right, just to avoid punctures. So I don't really strive to get the weight down. 27.5x2.35 Super Gravity Rock Razor is just a shade under 1kg, so fast tread and mid range weight. I'm hoping that'll be a nice compromise for me on the back. On the front I don't worry about the drag, so I don't think something like a minion is a great hardship either. Horses for courses I suppose.
This thread makes me feel a little guilty though that I fitted a Magic Mary and Rock Razor to a (fairly novice) friend's hardtail. He's loving the grip on <20psi and they're not slower than the cheap rubber the bike came with but that Mary will be a chunk draggier than some alternatives and I suppose we could've gone 200g lighter per tyre.
I really hate heavy, grippy tyres on a bike. I'm happy to put up with some fragility and be slightly slower down things, to be generally happier overall. I do wonder if part of the reason e-bikes have become so popular is due to the massive changes in tyres size and weight.
Previously, you really had to be (and please forgive the expression) "man enough" to run really soft compound, wide tyres on a trail bike as they just suck the life out of a significant percentage of the ride. This got even worse as tyres got wider and people wanted more grip for going downhill faster. We're now at the point that current trail tyres are about 20-30% heavier than DH tyres were about 5 years ago which makes them difficult to pedal all day. Uplifts started the trend, and now ebikes have completed the circle. You get all the downhill speed/grip with none of the drawbacks, but for a clockwork bike, it's just bloody hard work and finding light, grippy trail tyres isn't easy these days.
I really like Specialized CONTROL tyres for this reason, but the range is shrinking and the weight still keeps increasing.
This thread makes me feel a little guilty though that I fitted a Magic Mary
Because that's what STW does. Its like the old "build em up, tear em down" approach the NME had in the early 90s.
On a new build I went from a 2.3-Shorty 2.3-DHR combo to slightly bigger 2.5-Shorty 2.4-DHR.
I hated it felt like I was peddling through porridge, wasn't sure if it was bike or tyre, but as I had them spare I went back to 2.3 and got my zip back. Not massive difference but enough to suck the fun out, I can see why ebikes are appealing with fashion for big tyres. When things are dry I'll break out a 2.3-HighRoller 2.25-Crossmark combo which is even zippier.
Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against a Magic Mary (in whatever compound). They are great tyres and if they suit how and where you ride that's great. But a super gravity 2.4 does weigh more than the 5" fatbike tyres I used to use. The ones that everyone thought were comically large and must be really heavy. Well they were comically large but it turns out not that heavy.
I think @Daffy nails it. Mountain biking seems to be moving more and more towards a downhill oriented sport, with increased use of uplifts and motors. That's obviously what the market wants and that's fine. There are still products that cater to those of us with more of an xc or all day trail bent. You just need to be careful and realise that the make and model tyre you bought a few years ago may now weigh a fair bit more.
Good to see that you've worked out that the Flare Max isn't a bad climber 🙂
Early in lockdown I decided to relook at my bikes and where I ride them, and decided to 'throw out' the 'allrounder' approach. So I lightened off my HT and just used it for XC/trail riding; put super sticky and super stable Michelin Enduro tyres on my Flare Max and just used it for the steep, rough trails and used my gravel bike for mixed routes from home.
I'm lucky in that I live in the Tweed Valley, so have a vast amount of trails from natural right up to full-on DH/Enduro and trail centres as well. So I decide what I want to do, and pick the bike to suit the route.
Tyres-wise though there's a limit to how light I'll go on the HT, as it's still rocky everywhere and I don't want punctures - so it's running a worn-out Mary and a Minion SS.
i must say having recently purchased a couple of 2.6x29 marys to replace the old marys they have got heavier for the same tyre as well imo.
i am loving the grip. Its great but my god its hard.
When I got my Scandal I stuck some heavy duty WTB tyres on it, which made it a fun bike to play on some pretty serious trails. However, I found it was always getting left in the shed in favour of my Sentry which did that kind of thing much better. After one 35 mile ride on the Scandal, I wanted to get some faster rolling tyres on, so on went some Vittoria Mezcals. Knocked nearly 1kg off the weight and it feels (to me!) like an e-bike going up hills now, very fast and light. Downside, it’s decidedly not fun on lots of trails I love, bigger rocky drop offs feel awful and pressures have to be stupidly highly to stop them squirming coming into hard corners on steep downhills. I may try some inserts to see if that helps.
Overall, for me, my Sentry with Minion DHF front and HD addix rear is a much better all round bike, although I’m going to try and throw in a few more faster, but milder, rides for the Scandal. 🙂
The older 2.35 x 29 MM was 1142g and the new 2.4 is 1320g so yes I agree it is going up.
But - I only really notice this on road. Once i am off road then all the resistance (other than gravity obviously) seems to come from the terrain. So yes, if a real chunk of the route has lots of road in it, then go lighter, but if its all off road then i think the difference is negligible.
Plus to get any significant weight down you are now having to look at xc tyres.
Same as Daffy - I prefer the bike to feel sprightly and am probably always a bit ‘under tyred’ for the descents and really rough stuff. For where I ride 95% of the time though it’s fine.
I think once a bike is rolling you don’t perceive much of the tyre weight differences, what you notice is the hysteresis losses in the tread and casing. However, in many tyres, increasing mass goes hand in hand with increasing hysteresis losses - and then stickier compounds exacerbate that.
Interesting thread this. I find myself agreeing with the idea that being over-tyred is a thing that I’m now guilty of especially on my hardtail.
Like steamtb above I’ve got a sentry but I’m still on the standard tyres wtb trail boss 2.4 rear vigilante 2.6 front both in the high grip tough compound and there is no shortage of grip but they are draggy on the ups. Fine for winch and plummit stuff but not so nice on pedally flow trails. That’s not what the bike is designed for though.
After I got this bike it really showed up the shortcomings of the hardtail I was riding so that has morphed from a Xc bike with 100mm fork and 29x2.25 trail boss front and rear into a 64 head angle 140 forked bike and I chose vee flow snaps 2.6 f 2.35 r. Both marketed as ebike tyres. Plus rimpacts on the back of both bikes. Partly this is because riding buddies have similarly built bikes I must admit.
So like steamtb the hardtail is now built for similar trails as the fs and living in Sheffield it’s great on my local cheeky stuff which is often steep and moist. Good in the dark peak too.
It’s obvious that it’s a real slog on pedally hard pack though. Trails like cooking on gas at lady cannings are just horrible on either bike compared to when I used to ride 26ers with purgatory control 2.35 or hr2 2.35 on the back. It just feels so much harder to pedal and keep speed up.
I think I might put the trail boss 2.25 on the back and lose the rimpact. It’s a tough and fast rolling compound but will probably tear a sidewall first time out and regret it straight away! 🙄
I'm also a huge fan of the Nobby Nic / Racing Ralph and run this combo year round.
The big problem with the old Nic tread pattern (even the Addix version) is that it has a propensity to wash out on off-camber stuff and especially on loose over hardpack trails. This I think is due to the gaps in the tread pattern. A very fast rolling tyre considering the fact that it has full size treads, but somewhat unpredictable.
The newest, redesigned Nic is like night and day. I've just fitted one in the 27.5 / 2.35" guise to my Giant Anthem and the thing sticks like glue on trails where I've had problems with washouts on the old tread. Some reviews have said that the increased grip comes at the expense of rolling resistance. I can't say that I've noticed any increase though, and I'm still beating PRs on Strava. However, I haven't done any 30+ mile rides on it yet so will need to see how it goes. In general, I'm very happy with this new tyre and it suits the XC / light trail riding that I do.
There's a couple of negatives though. The new versions have been beefed up somewhat. My previous gen Nic in the same size and compound (Addix Speedgrip) only weighed 716g when new. The new one (Super Ground / Speedgrip) weighs 870g. I'm happy to live with that as there's obviously a lot of extra rubber in there and the snakeskin protection now runs through the whole tyre, not just the sidewalls. Also, whereas Schwalbe tyres have always sized up exactly as advertised, my new one measures (sidewall to sidewall on 25mm ID rims) only 2.30". We'll see if this stretches out over the next few rides.
Also, the tread pattern and general carcass shape seem more optimised for 30mm id rims compared to the old version.
I don’t like big heavy tyres. They suck all the fun out of riding.
For a new build I’m doing I have purposely gone for light weight xc tyres (vittoria barzo) and hopefully ill get away with them. I have added rimpact to the wheels which add a 100 grams to see if they allow me to run a light xc tyre. I have also gone carbon rims for lightness.
A frame can weigh anything and I don’t notice it. Wheels and tyres are what I feel and judge when riding.
chiefgrooveguru
Free Member
I think once a bike is rolling you don’t perceive much of the tyre weight differences, what you notice is the hysteresis losses in the tread and casing. However, in many tyres, increasing mass goes hand in hand with increasing hysteresis losses – and then stickier compounds exacerbate that.
On a road bike this is almost certainly true, but on a MTB, especially on climbs/switchbacks/undulating and twisty stuff, you're constantly having to accelerate that extra weight and even more so on very technical climbs. It all adds up to an energy sapping ride. Think about it, every time you go to ride up a rock, you have to spin-up an extra KG to get over it and it actually slows down at a similar rate as a lighter one due to gravity negating momentum.
It'd be interesting to see power rates and heart rates on a climb at a constant time for ascent, but different tyres.
I have never regretted fitting lighter tyres, but then I don't spend my time riding down sketchy, rocky off-piste trails or downhill tracks. Coed y Brenin is about as gnar as I ever get, and Ralphs or at most Nics are fine round there. Most people are over biked and over tyred most of the time - they might be happy with that trade off for the few times they actually need it, but I'm not. That's not a criticism, just an observation that what different people like is different.
Think about it, every time you go to ride up a rock, you have to spin-up an extra KG to get over it and it actually slows down at a similar rate as a lighter one due to gravity negating momentum.
The total weight of the bike and rider is typically in the 70 to 100 kg range. That extra kg is less than 2% of the total. Yes, heavy tyres do make the bike feel sluggish, but IME people vastly overestimate the effect on speed compared with the effect of rubber compound and knob shape.
"Think about it, every time you go to ride up a rock, you have to spin-up an extra KG to get over it and it actually slows down at a similar rate as a lighter one due to gravity negating momentum."
The first half is right. Not sure about your physics on the second half! Greater rotating mass takes more work to accelerate but then it has more inertia to resist deceleration. If you're braking lots then you lose that energy but otherwise the extra work you had to put in helps to keep you rolling.
I really do think rotating mass is something that affects feel a lot more than it affects performance.
Yes, heavy tyres do make the bike feel sluggish, but IME people vastly overestimate the effect on speed compared with the effect of rubber compound and knob shape.
Yep. I have a Magic Mary on one bike and a Verdict Wet on another. The VW is a complete drag when used for anything other than winter mud. The VW is also lighter.
The total weight of the bike and rider is typically in the 70 to 100 kg range. That extra kg is less than 2% of the total. Yes, heavy tyres do make the bike feel sluggish, but IME people vastly overestimate the effect on speed compared with the effect of rubber compound and knob shape.
But surely if you can feel it, you're not feeling it through your finger tips, you're feeling it through your legs, through the effort needed to shift it. If it's THAT noticeable to your legs, even on the flat, it's going to be bloody noticeable on a climb and have a significant cumulative effect at the end of a ride where you've had to do that hundreds of times.
“If it’s THAT noticeable to your legs, even on the flat, it’s going to be bloody noticeable on a climb and have a significant cumulative effect at the end of a ride where you’ve had to do that hundreds of times.”
It’s not as simple as that. If each pedal stroke takes you further then it doesn’t matter if it’s harder. If the first few pedal strokes are harder but the rest are easier because of the increased flywheel effect then it balances out, etc etc
Humans are incredibly good at feeling tiny differences but incredibly bad at analysing their effects accurately.
Part of the reason why it took me so long to get round to changing tyres is that I didn't really feel it being any slower. It was just a combination of Strava telling me that I was consistently slower up longer climbs and a feeling of being unable to do (or at least enjoy) the longer rides that I used to enjoy. Despite other measures (such as Zwift) suggesting that I was fitter than I had been in the past I still tended to put this down to a loss of fitness with age.
The tyre weight issue is an interesting one. I've mentioned my old fatbike a few times, but that still holds my record time on a few climbs, despite having tyres that weighed 1,290g each. So there is more to it than just weight I suspect.
Interesting to hear that the new Nobby Nic has more grip than the old one and can still be had in an 870g version. Thanks @devash
I'm still somewhat horrified by how heavy modern tyres are.
I remember when "fast" tyres we're around the 400g mark, and budget tyres about 600g. How over a kilo is acceptable on any bike that has to be pedalled up and along as well as down is beyond me.
I'm a big fan of fast rolling tyres too, but then I enjoy getting out and covering as much ground as possible, and not smashing through massive rock gardens, and my local terrain is slop in the winter so I ride on the road!
I think once a bike is rolling you don’t perceive much of the tyre weight differences, what you notice is the hysteresis losses in the tread and casing. However, in many tyres, increasing mass goes hand in hand with increasing hysteresis losses – and then stickier compounds exacerbate that.
That’s an interesting point and would explain why I set some of my best climbing times on those 5” fatbike tyres. It’s not so much the weight as the suppleness of the tyre, but the two often go hand in hand. These heavier trail/enduro tyres have a stiffer carcass, which is what you want to resist the tyre folding over under hard cornering at low pressures, but it means a lot more hysteresis losses.
Plus there is the compound of course. The old Nic that I’ve put on uses the same pacestar compound and the same snakeskin carcass as those jumbo Jim fatbike tyres. I guess that just rolls a whole lot better than the soft compound and heavier carcass on the Mary. Maybe that is more important than the 375g weight saving. I don’t know.
Humans are incredibly good at feeling tiny differences but incredibly bad at analysing their effects accurately.
It is almost like you need to actually test it using timing and power meters isn't it....
So yesterday I did a bit of Googling and I think there is about 100g difference between my trail boss 2.5 tough fast rolling and my vee flow snap “ebike” tyre- quite soft compound. I’ll swap them over and see if there is a noticeable difference on hardpack pedally flow trails. If their is I suspect it’s the compound not the tyre weight.
It will be compound combined with different tread profile. I have just swapped from a Maxxis Pace on rear to a Maxxis Forekaster. Same width and pretty much same weight. Definitely feels slower on tarmac and about the same off road other than I am not sliding as much. Just means I will avoid tarmac even more which is only a good thing.
I’m still somewhat horrified by how flimsy and tear/puncture prone tyres used to be.
How having to worry about slashing a casing, pinch flatting, burping air or puncturing easily is acceptable on any bike that has to be ridden off road at speed is beyond me.
The other side of the coin of course!
Humans are incredibly good at feeling tiny differences but incredibly bad at analysing their effects accurately.
Though feel is what we're working with every time we interact with the bike... 😄
Swapped out a 2.35 Hans dampf for a 2.8 dhf on the front of my solo running a minion ss out back. Didn't feel any more hard work to pedal but feels like a slightly unruly rocket on descents. Fun!
I changed out wheels and tyres on the + hardtail, saved 800g overall (retained 2.8dhf front and went to reckon rear from dhr), and it transformed the bike in to something much more enjoyable both up and down. Buy nice wheels!
I was surprised that my Whyte s120c came with 'fast' rather than 'tough' tyres given the marketing waffle about short travel enduro blah blah blah. Suits my local lockdown trail-centre rides perfectly though.
I'll either have to mince once I'm allowed back into the Peaks, or put something chunkier on the other wheels.
I've been dragging a boat anchor around on my enduro bike (the one I race enduros on). There are notable race stages where I've given fullgas (with decent FTP and sprint power) and lost large chunks of time. Yup. The flatter stages. Perhaps I should think about how the time deficit from one pedally stage skews the result more than the steep technical stages (unless you end up in a bush).
Because of more general economising, I haven't been buying tyres just because. My Norco (2018 Range) came on double boat anchors (e*thirteen). I had a few front tyre options to swap on for varying conditions but the rear has been a fixture of lurking evil. Over the winter I've had a Hillbilly Grid up front. Last weekend I decided to get the Wild Enduro out of the spares box for the front, the Hillbilly went to the back and the anchor went to the bin. Lo and behold the bike has some liveliness.
On the same race day that the e*thirteen's drag factor cost me time, it survived being ridden down a stage punctured and sealed up fuss free with a bacon strip at the bottom. I got on the podium that day despite or because of my tyre choices - hard to tell.
My experience is that tyres that come up square are draggy. Stiffer carcasses are draggy. Sticky compounds are draggy. The e*thirteens had it all. If there was any camber on the trail, they'd feel like you had the brakes on. The square shape seems worse still with wider rim widths - that other modern fad.
I'm pretty close to knowing what tyre I want on the front of my bike. I've got much less clue about rear tyres. I've been experimenting with Rimpacts on my eMTB but I feel I'm a long way from finding my ideal for the clockwork bike yet.
That’s an interesting point and would explain why I set some of my best climbing times on those 5” fatbike tyres. It’s not so much the weight as the suppleness of the tyre, but the two often go hand in hand.
I imagine that the extra traction from the wide tyre would help to propel you forward more quickly.
as for normal mtb’s i think it’s the tread that makes the biggest difference to the speed of a tyre.
These heavier trail/enduro tyres have a stiffer carcass, which is what you want to resist the tyre folding over under hard cornering at low pressures, but it means a lot more hysteresis losses.
on the other hand, you can use lower pressures (in theory improving traction and rolling resistance) and the side walls will be strong enough to resist pinch flats.
edit: this is a great topic. i have heavy and light sets of wheels with complimenting tyres. i now find myself switching the tyres between the wheels and agonizing over the sweet spot!
I love spring when I get to take the winter knobblies off. The bike is noticably faster. Up and down. Even the ebike.
I generally like a heavier rear tyre but there is definitely a fine balance.
I'm not keen on the trend for mahoosive tyres. They feel horrible to ride (I have them on the eeb and I have to run them HARD to stop the squirm). On the ht a 2.3 on the rear is the max I like unless in going to a bike park on it.
Less knobblies = more speed = more sideways = more fun. Especially when it rains.
Biking eh everything is a compromise.
Ideally I would change tyres to suit conditions and to suit the majority of terrain types being ridden on the day. Apart from racers, who can be arsed with that!
Remember the days when people used to ride around on single ply 120 TPI tyres (thankfully that's over) and wonder why they had about four punctures per ride on rocky trails! You can still buy those tyres if you live somewhere, where they work.
But yeah I reckon some people are using dual ply and inserts they don't really need and too wide a tyre that aren't as efficient but more comfortable!
It is one of the downsides of tubeless. It's a faff and expensive to change tyres often so don't bother. If I had tubes I reckon I would change on the day to suit the terrain/conditions
interesting to see the different sides of the coin.
It seems that people complain about getting punctures. Manufacturer comes out with heavier duty tyre, people complain about weight.
i must admit though that my stumpy feels a drag with thicker rear tyres on. however they are better damped and this makes it feel safer (for me) so i enjoy it more. As people say horses for corses.
We all want the grip of a mary with the rolling speed and weight of a semi slick.
Over on one of the ladies mtb fb groups, someone was asking about tyres. The HT she just bought came 650b x 2.8. Having liked the Mary’s on her ebike she just stuck some 2.8” MMs on her new HT and was asking why it was so slow to ride up hill. We looked it up and she had put 2.5 kg of tyres on her HT - plus the tread and lack of engine - no wonder it felt slow. Does make you realise how easily it is to become over-tyred and pay for it as result.
So to bring this thread back...
Following a PSA on here I recently bought a fast light tyre- Vitoria mezcal 29x2.6
Put this on my hardtail yesterday. Replaced a vee flow snap 29x2.35 with “ebike ready” or something similar on the sidewall. Going by the internet the new tyre is 278g lighter. And a much faster rolling tread pattern suitable only for dry trails.
Went in the same back wheel, tubeless with rimpact still in as I’m a clumsy oaf. 23psi
Went up to a local spot with man made flowy trails. (Lady cannings)
One particular strava segment I’ve done 90-100 times. Go a PR first time down. Did two runs and both within a second of each other (2 minute runs). This is 10 seconds faster than my usual time for the last year in this bike. Last time I went this fast was on a lighter xc type build with fast tyres again. 2 years ago.
Then I lost pressure due lack of sealant and had to go home...
Anyway. Fast light tyres are faster on the right trail. I’m sold.
roverpig
Full MemberThat’s an interesting point and would explain why I set some of my best climbing times on those 5” fatbike tyres. It’s not so much the weight as the suppleness of the tyre, but the two often go hand in hand
Fatbike drag is really interesting I think because it acts fairly different to normal tyres- it ramps up much more with speed, which isn't something I've ever really felt with a normal tyre. Some sort of threshold effect where the hysteresis overcomes the tyre's ability to get out of its own way and instead of just sucking up power with its deformation under weight like normal, you're basically pushing against the tyre's lag and creating something like a bow wave. I'm sure it happens with all tyres at some point but man is it is a thing with fatbikes,suddenly that really fast low gradient trailcentre section that's usually a sprint is a drag.
But it's not generally an issue when climbing for the same reason and suddenly people are impressed by your awesome power, so, don't tell anyone.