[Closed] Ovalised Ti headtube -options?

If it's a routine frame, by the standards of built Ti, I'd just send it back and get a refund.

If it's something more specialized then you're more invested - you might have spent a lot of time with the purchase, had it designed etc, or the builder is generally good and you'd like to give them the chance of putting this colossal blunder right. I mean anyone serious would be mortified at this quality of workmanship surely?

So I'd try and work with the builder in this second case but don't like the sound of the big rounding tool. Sounds like the way of the bodge. I have no real clue on this, though, maybe it's legit - Someone here will know if this is bollox or not.

1.2mm ovality on a 44mm diameter is dire. That's nowhere near acceptable tolerance, in fact it's an order (or two!) of magnitude more. Hambini would have a field day with that...

Send it back, reject it. If for whatever reason you're invested in it (custom?), you could get them to try to fix it but like you say, I seriously doubt you'll cold set it. Titanium has a modulus of elasticity about half that of steel, so expect it to spring back a lot if you try to cold form it. Whether you can push it far enough without damaging the weld is one question, how they are going to stress relieve it is another, think several hundred degrees for an hour or so! (caveat - it's been a LONG time since my materials modules of my Mech Eng degree so check this rather than take it as gospel!). I fear that a big conical tool won't do the job as it'll always spring back slightly oval. I suspect that percussive adjustment to the front of the head tube will be required.... I wouldn't be happy with that.

What's the warranty and customer service like on it?

For example

If its planet x and its 2 years refuse the frame.

If its alpkit and 10 years then I'd accept it.

Regardless if it is custom or not. A ti bike is for life or at least 5 years!

As @hambini says, why not just have a set of measures made so you can see if they fit in the bb and headset. That way within seconds you can tell if it's too big, too small, just right, oval etc. Where is the quality control on these frames to let a bike go out that's so poor? Do they not have any pride in their work?

Is this the replacement for the one you had to send back?  If that is the case then I'd be asking for a full refund and buying elsewhere.

Ti can be bent slightly, I have a ti and when i got it the rear spacing was about 128mm, but warmed it up and just forced the stays apart a bit more in a springing motion. Opened them to about 133mm and left a prob with the disc mount seemingly out of kilter. Again the heat gun and some more bending and its fine, straight and etc.

If(speaking hypothetically) a tube of ovalized then it has effectively been squeezed at opposite sides, so cold set or no it must have moved in order to get that shape from its original round Or am i missing something here info wise ?

What I mean is whatever this rounding tool does exactly it sits in the tube, and spreads it to the correct shape yeah ?.
And as you say you'd think if you remove it it would just spring back to its oval shape.
But wouldnt the headset cu just do the same thing as the tool ?, but youre leaving it in.
If you can return it return it, but if youre stuck with it try putting a jubilee clip around it, tighten till its about circular then drive in the cup.Then take off the jubilee clip. Its an exact fit, so all sides have to be even and if its in then they are.

It soulds too simple so there must be something im missing 😆

I dont think Ti is like spring steel, or anything set in shape and it will bend if you apply an amount of force on it.
Im making a jacket type seatclamp out of grade 3 ti, and it bends just fine.

F m l !

No not acceptable on a head tube whether Ti or not

Send the lads round 😝

Different frame, scotroutes.

a) I guess there are a couple of questions. If this had gone out of round during welding, and they'd caught it in QC )which I 100% agree they should have done) and put it right by whatever means, I'd have been bone the wiser.

b) as per dynati, If it had been a full build delivered and they'd done the "squeeze round, install, let go" method with say, a CK headset which might stay in forever with maybe a couple of cartridge bearing changes, I'd have been none the wiser.

Is there anything wrong with what they might have done in a), and is that the sort of thing that happens during a build anyway?

Is there anything wrong with b) other than it's a bit unsatisfactory, if you know about it?

If(speaking hypothetically) a tube of ovalized then it has effectively been squeezed at opposite sides, so cold set or no it must have moved in order to get that shape from its original round Or am i missing something here info wise ?

Unless it's been warped out of round by round during welding, especially if there were plenty of welds for gussets as well as tubes.

What I mean is whatever this rounding tool does exactly it sits in the tube, and spreads it to the correct shape yeah ?.

That's as I understand it.

I'm happy that Ti can be bent, all the stays are bent for starters, I'm just cautious about flexing around so many welds, which I'm guessing must be more brittle, and especially if they're planning to flex past the elastic return point, which I understand is "quite far" on Ti.

But on the other hand, maybe I'm wrong, and maybe they'd have done it anyway in a) if they'd caught it, with no ill effects.

???

Return for refund as it is not acceptable any which way you look at it

What is it and where purchased ?

I braze my own frames and have had head tubes on early stuff end up all kinds of shapes.

It is easy for Hambini to snipe when all he makes is circular things in a lathe. And does he actually get his bbs anodized or do they end up a crusty mess after one winter of road salt?

Anyway back on topic. Forcing in a cup / really springing open the ht can lead to the bearing binding as it distorts the cup as well as the ht. Check this using a cartridge headset. Remove the cartridge before pressing in the cup. If the cartridge won't drop back in with similar effort then the cup is being distorted.

One workable bodge is to lightly file the headset cups in a roughly matching oval to the tube - at least that won't be overly springing the tube or binding the brg. Add a bit of bearing retainer when you press in just to be sure. I rode a frame like that for 8 years with no creaks.

Thanks Mick. It's a frame that's new enough and expensive enough that "workable bodge" isn't acceptable.

If we've got a frame that's missed final QC and final alignment that happens in the normal course of finishing, that's fine.

If the frame's been messed up during building and none of the available options to rectify is anything other than a nasty bodge, then I think it's refund time.

Any other thoughts?

Who made the frame?

If I want a cheap frame and can accept the odd minor quality issue then I will get what I pay for.

But a titanium frame doesn't really fall into the cheap and a bit risky category. Even if I bought a cheap frame I would expect it accept standard dimension headsets.

Ok so it is still a guessing game what this frame is & where purchased from

Bizarre

What a weird thread, literally the forum equivalent of posting on Facebook saying can't be bothered anymore and everyone saying u ok hun

Just say what frame it is FFS

If they didn't measure the headtube as part of their quality control process then you have to wonder about the rest of the frame. I'd be sending it back and either a full replacement built to the correct standards or my money back.

I braze my own frames and have had head tubes on early stuff end up all kinds of shapes.

Would be interesting to know if the headtube on the frame in question had a headtube which was machined to tolerence prior to welding, or whether it was post machined.

Years ago I made uprights for a race car and the bearing journals for the hubs were post machined, as the journal would be very out of round after welding.

Why does it matter what frame it is? Just a bit of rubber-necking on your part! 🙂

I want to know if a headtube going out of round during welding is normal and fine, and if squidging it back into round during final alignment is normal and fine.

If it is, great. I'll crack on, despite the fact that it should have been caught at QC.

If going out of round during welding is a sign of bad work process and setting it round afterwards is a horrible bodge, I'll see about a refund, as this isn't a case of picking another one off the shelf and replacing - as it was with Sonder who were very good about an alignment problem I had with one of theirs.

I'd quite like to know the make of the frame so I dont accidentally buy one 😉

No pics!?

Yh sounds like either a real iffy frame or a figment of imagination

We are a cycling community who deserve to know bout brand as QC clearly is not their strong point nor producing frames

@nedrapier - just state what frane is otherwise crack on with building it up and get thread deleted as pointless from where I'm sitting

Blimey, Tdog, get back in your box. You want naming and shaming and you're not going to get it. If you hate the thread so much, stop reading it.

I'm midway through resolving an issue with a company. They've made a mistake, which is regrettable, but everyone makes mistakes and it's how they resolve the mistakes that's important.

I posted for a sense-check whether a) the solution they're proposing is absolutely normal and run of the mill, and probably would have happened anyway if they'd caught the issue before it left the gate, or b) there's nothing that can be done at this stage that isn't a horrible bodge.

I'd be very grateful if someone with some experience or knowledge of Ti welding could tell me if it's a) or b)

And I really want to make it clear that I'd be a lot happier if it was a). It would be a flip load less hassle all round.

They should have experience with ti frames, That is partly what you pay for, well informed bike Co. to give you info

Yes it is how they will deal with it of course though so little to go on which can only lead to speculation

The headtube should be chased and faced after welding but it sounds like yours is too far gone. Scrap and refund.

Ive used Chris King Steelset 1 1/8” headsets in dodgy headtubes as they have longer insertion cups but they are pretty much fitted for life once pressed in and not something for a new frame.

Stuff distorts when it gets hot. Who'd have thought.... You can stuff mandrels and heatsinks in during welding, but then you you need to apply more heat because the heatsink sucks it away and so the circle continues.

Ti generally has bungs in there anyway as it is back purged with argon.

Steel is quite thin wall so can't be rescued by much reaming / post machining or you have nothing left. Generally best to avoid distorting it in the first place by careful welding and if possible using a long enough tube so the headset bore is well away from the weld. I've seen some builders use a long piece of head tube that is only cut after weld / braze to avoid it flaring.

Aluminium is thicker so there is more material to ream / face. And it is soft after welding so can maybe be tweaked before heat treatment (see Nicolai and Orange videos on YouTube).

Ti I haven't a clue what tweaking they do. If custom and you requested a very short ht / main tubes joining very close to ends of ht then that is maybe part of the problem.

Not much I can input I'm afraid op.

Does sound a fair bit out of whack to be sure.

I'd be tempted to go with the fix on the assumption it's a reputable company.

That said I also value my teeth.

Good luck with it mate, right pain in the rear for sure.