[Closed] Orange Stage 5 hard going

Hows it climb when you lock the shock out?

Not much help but my 2017 Segment climbs miles better than the 5 29 it replaced. The stock Maxxis tyres do seem draggy though.

What are the seat angles like between the Stage and 5? Have you had to move your saddle forward to compensate for the extra reach?

Are you using the same tyres? Same wheelset? The whole weighty rims and draggy tyres always seems really significant to me when i swap between bikes.

My mate has one.. and he's had lots of Orange 5/Alpines/etc. He climbs better on that than any of those and the Niner WFO he was riding before. Might just be new bike legs tho!

Hmm Ive not long had a stage 5 and love it. Climbs Incredibly well IMO.

Infact its probably the best bike out of the many I've had. Its bloody brilliant 😆

That’s what I keep hearing Alex and Chestrockwell, positive reports of how much better the newer bikes are. New bike legs, I wish, trying to be enthusiastic but it’s killing me!

Just put the same Stan's Flow mk3’s rims on it to match my Five but feels the same, really heavy pedal stroke on each climb.

Tyres, I messed about with. Immediately took off the Minion and HR2 after the first bad ride, plus they were sliding about all over the place. Went back to my preferred Butcher / Slaughter combo and it felt ok. Pre my ride to Wales I didn’t trust the standard Control carcass so took off the Grid Butcher and Purgatory from the Five 29 and fitted to the Stage. Next ride I was dying at the back on every climb! So the front was only a compound change and the rear was obviously not as fast as the Slaughter but not to the point that it should kill me. So off they came and Minion back on for Wales paired with a Tomahawk. In Wales these were good on the firm terrain but now I’m back on Southern muck they are useless.

I believe the seat angle is steeper and I’ve moved the seat further forward also to try and get the weight off the back wheel.

Climb switch was ok on the big climbs but this is noticeable on every small incline that you wouldn’t bother switching I feel. I’ll try it again but on my Five which has a CCDB cs, I only use the climb mode on big climbs.

Thanks J273, that’s what I would expect and why this is doing my nut in!!

Have you had a ride on any other bikes recently? Feel better or the same? Mibbe you have a virus or something, making you a bit empty?.

Just a thought.

Like nobeer I was wondering if it is really the bike, if you've got something like low iron or something you could be blaming the bike (i was iron deficient last year), worth validating with another bike.
I did have problems with the fox shock on my old five, but not so much as would explain your experience, also seems contrary to most peoples view of the new oranges, my segment flies.

However i also believe some bikes just dont suit some people, but seems unlikely if not your first orange.

Fair point and I had considered this as I have been fighting a on-going issue for a while now. However, as a man of many bikes, can never have too many 🙂 I was out on my Clockwork last weekend and was happily climbing away at the front of the pack. My fitness is down from last year for sure though due to illness so it could be a factor.

Spent a while with the Orange dealer this afternoon and they couldn't spot anything obvious with the bike. They did suggest looking at setting the suspension back up again to make sure this wasn't sapping my energy. They are a Shockwiz dealer so I might hire a pair from them next weekend to see if it's way out or not.

I did set my forks and shock up using the Fox recommended settings and then tweaked a little from there.

I'm still at a loss but I'm going to swap pedals and seat for my Five's next just to rule them out.....

Steeper seat angle? I don't get on with them. read somewhere It's to do with having proportionally longer femer... or something like that

When i demo,d one i found the swme zapping lazyness on the climbs ,i stopped after first lap raised the saddle only a tiny amount and it made a world of differnece ,maybe its to do with the sa but just a tad helped massivly

My mate had this problem with one. His old 5 climbed like a mountain goat & he always said it was the best bike he'd ever had, so he just expected the new one to be at least as good.
Wrong. He was knackered after an hour on a test ride & ended up with a Bronson C.

I'll do a straight swap for my hard tail if you cant sort it 8)

How far forward exactly have you moved the saddle? Is it too far forward to engage your glutes properly? Your quads will give out fairly quickly if they are the only thing powering you up the hill? Tyres do make a huge difference though. Went with downhill casing in the mud last weekend and it was like fighting a wall of slowness all weekend. Also what tyre pressures are you running? And is your suspension tuned as the old 5 29er?

I tried a Stage 6 which was fine although not a billy goat by any means. Found it a bit dead on the down too but it was just a snapshot hours ride.

Pick yourself up a joint angle measurer and check you are in a similar pedalling position to other bikes
[img] [/img]

It has to be pedalling position. As a dedicated sit spinner myself, I know how even a tiny tweak out of position can make it feel seriously odd and much harder work.

Try taking by the rear mech clutch off. Seen multiple reports recently of dodgy Shimano clutch mechs making climbing really tough.

Been messing with the seat height, even took it too high so I was stretching too far! Back down now and feels about right and very close to my Five.

Saddle, I don't think it's too far forward, I'm about midpoint on the rails. I started off with it way back, which is how I have my Five but with the extra reach on the Stage, I've pushed it forward by about 10mm. Good point though Speedstar, will investigate further to make sure not too far forward.

Angle finder is an interesting suggestion. Will get myself one of those.

Changed pedals and seat tonight. Only spun up the run and all felt ok but it has done many times before. Hoping to get out and try again tomorrow.

Ha, yes the Shimano clutch was my first culprit! Found it was causing a problem so that led to me having an excuse to buy SRAM groupset 🙂

Brakes rubbing? Goosed hub, bb bearings? Chain too short? Flat tyres? Saddle position? Different crank length? Too many pies? Illness? Mates keep adding ballast to your frame?

(Seat position shouldn't change based on the frame length, just all about your position above the BB. Easy one to transfer from your old bike to the mm; height, angle and fore aft.)

Saddle position isn't affected by reach.

You really need to be in the same position over the bottom bracket as you were on the 529.

Did your old bike have an inline or layback post.

I find bikes with steeper seat angles really hard to pedal as I much prefer to be further behind the bottom bracket. More of a kops position suits me better.

Just a thought.

You might be onto something with ballast being added, lol

Ok, yes you're correct reach won't affect saddle position. The steeper seat angle will though. I was trying to measure and match the position of the saddle to my Five but that is a lot further back from the BB then the Stage due to the seat angle, I think. This is why I had the saddle pushed right back.

Na, the Five didn't have a layback, just an inline. Will do some more measuring.

Stepper seat angle is meant to be better for peddling but so far I'm not convinced!

If you figure out be sure to post the solution here please.
I went out on my fatty with a local bunch and was at the front most of the way.
Went out with them again on my 5 and was at the back from the start, absolutely hated it.
Which made me wonder what is wrong with my 5, I just put it down to heavy draggy tyres and rode the fatty every time after.

Took my 5 to the lakes and got reminded why I bought the bike. Was ace going down the descent on the red, as I was riding alone I didn't have anyone to gauge how slow I was up the climb.
So is 45mins for the red at whinlatter crap?

Crank length the same?

I have to agree with some of the earlier posts on here; the changes between bikes are actually very minimal. It wouldn't make that much difference, that hills became impossible. Check yourself out first I'd say.

Agree with some of the others, maybe time to get a blood test - to see if you're suffering from anaemia etc.

I know I have a background health issue but this is nothing new, had it for years and years. Also I own a fair collection of bikes so I am able to jump between them and I know when something feels wrong. My experience on the Stage is so far removed from everything else I've ridden that I knew there is an issue with this bike and me. As I said, riding my Clockwork last weekend I was fine, jump back on the Stage and I struggle.

I'll get out on it this afternoon hopefully and try again with some more adjustments.

Do you feel comfortable when riding it or do you get lots of aches and pains in your legs ?

Steeper seat angle? I don't get on with them. read somewhere It's to do with having proportionally longer femer... or something like that

My new bike has a steep seat angle (as is in fashion at the mo..). It climbs very well but after the first couple of rides my legs ached in places that weren't normal. I wouldn't have wanted to do a really long ride until I got used to it.

Time yourself on each of your bikes to compare. It might be all in the mind.

I'm way out of touch with recent geometry trends in MTBs, but I would have thought that a steeper seat angle only improved climbing by putting more weight on the front wheel whilst seated, to stop it wandering.

Otherwise, steep seat angle = further over BB + moving saddle forward = furtherer over BB!

You could be several cm further forward compared to the BB than you used to be, as others said above that could really mess with your pedalling, engaging muscles that haven't been used before, etc. etc.

Also +1 for timing (unless racing your mates counts as timing). As they say in road cycling and I've noticed repeatedly with over-competitive commuting, it never gets easier, you just get faster! Perhaps you're going quicker whilst also feeling more knackered 8)

LOL at the seat angle comments. What do you think happens to your seat angle when you ride on anything other than perfectly level ground?!

Probably depends if OP is a sit and spin or stand and mash climber. If you're sitting in a fundamentally different aspect to the BB then you can expect the load on your legs to be different. Even foot placement can do that. Standing pretty much makes seat angle redundant. Of course seat angle will move as the bike moves through its travel, but depending where it was placed initially will go some way toward determining the arc it moves through and thus the actual limits. If standing to climb and it seems harder work than expected, suspension setup and design are the options. Locking out suspension to climb shouldn't really be necessary anymore, active suspension to enhance traction is a desirable climbing feature of a modern FS bike.

Generally I'm sceptical of bike fits for FS MTBs simply because of moving suspension, position etc, but in a case like this if every thing else had already been tried, maybe it might be worthwhile? They do cost money, but it'll be a smaller hit than changing bike.

LOL at the seat angle comments. What do you think happens to your seat angle when you ride on anything other than perfectly level ground?!

It changes, by the same angle as every other angle on the bike, which retains the various relationships and distances between saddle/BB/bars/pedals etc.

What's your point? 8)

LOL at the seat angle comments. What do you think happens to your seat angle when you ride on anything other than perfectly level ground?!

[img] [/img]

Had a much better ride out today. Spent some time measuring my other bikes and trying to transfer these numbers to the Stage, actually ended up lowering the seat by about 5mm, seat back by about 10mm just to try and get close to my Five and XC bike. Seat angle really brings the position much further forward on this bike.

Swapped the Hope pedals out for a set of Nano's which I use on most other bikes, changed the saddle to a Charge as this is the same as my Five, fitted an Aggressor tyre on the rear. Also took the sag down to 25% both front and rear plus re-baselined the compression and rebound on the shock.

Ride out to the local single track was ok, bike felt good but not amazingly different on the climbs. However, was able to get much better purchase on the Nano's and also able to slide forward and feel supported better on the saddle so climbs were dispatched ok if still a little hard.

When I got to the single track I stopped and changed my tyre pressures down to 21 front, 23 rear and headed off. Bike felt amazing, blisteringly quick and so composed. Didn't put a foot wrong and had one of the best blasts through the woods I have had in ages. Compared to Friday where I could hardly ride and it felt like I was on ice through the trees, front and rear sliding all over the show! Horrible experience with lots of expletives! Only did one lap as it started to rain sadly and I had a long way home. But the bike felt great all the way home on the lower tyre pressure! Don't know if it was adrenaline from a great run or if the bike was better but I really enjoyed the ride home and I couldn't stop smiling with the bike feeling great.

Hopefully I can repeat this on my next ride out

Just following up on this thread OP and wondered if you had got your problem sorted

Really close to getting a Stage 5 myself but have a few reservations following this thread

Thoughts welcome!

I have a stage 5 too, but I hate climbing and don’t care where I am in the pack, I just sit and spin up to the top but can’t say it’s any better or worse than any other bike? In fairness rode Macc forest this weekend which has a number of pretty steep climbs and they were fine.

But, I know it’s a cliche, it’s just so much fun on the downs!! Really quick and assured, poppy and playful too, and that’s all I care about really.

I am on the debonair shock, which was improved massively when I stuck 4 bands in! added a Luftkappe to my pikes too which is amazing.

I’ve never seen anyone go fast uphill on and orange. It always looks like hell.

Thanks for replies

Last question i'm 5-10 and deciding whether to go M or L frame size. Seem to be just on the boundary between the two

Any thoughts from current owners?

I’m possibly a fraction taller at 179/180cm and the large I had a demo on felt spot on.

I'm 5'11" and riding a large. Running a 150mm dropper, and could probably fit a 170mm one in, so I think at 5'10 you would be fine.

Best climbing full suss I've owned!

Looks like L it is then!

I know i said last quesion before but.....

Any other thoughts on sizing or stuff to look for from other owners?

It'll be first 29er i've owned but ready to give it a go i reckon

Only thing I would say is that I've had to add volume reducers to the shock on both Oranges I've owned (and I'm only 70ish kg). So worth bearing in mind if you find yourself blowing through the travel.

So the OP found climbing hard work on the Stage Five, jonundercover reckons all Oranges are crap at climbing but benman reckons the Stage Five is the "best climbing full suss" he's owned. That's cleared that up then 🙂

Compared to Friday where I could hardly ride

You might just've been poorly. I've been slightly ill for a week or so - not snivelling or coughing but when I try to pedal hard I just get tired. And I couldn't run hardly at all last week. Something to consider.

Only had a very quick go on one but it felt quite perky uphill.

Thanks for replies

Last question i'm 5-10 and deciding whether to go M or L frame size. Seem to be just on the boundary between the two

Any thoughts from current owners?

I'm 5'10" and ride a size Large Stage 5. There's loads of standover. I'm running a KS LEV dropper with 125 mm travel which I have to run a fair way out of the frame to get proper seated position when climbing. I will be upgrading it to a 150 mm travel dropper. The size Medium frame felt far too small for me.

On the sizing issue, I am under 5ft 8in and the medium felt too small for me. So I reckon large for you at 5ft 10in.

I'm 5' 10" and always ride medium Oranges - Patriots, Fives, Alpines, P7. I demoed a medium Stage 5 and it felt great size-wise and was a bloody good bike (though I ended up buying a new Five, which suited my priorities slightly better). I could ride a large but prefer the smaller frames, especially now they're all a bit longer anyway. Good for very tight, techy stuff too, tho probably not quite so stable on fast straights. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

jonundercover - I know plenty of Orange riders who fly up hills - long ones, steep ones, techy ones. It's not the bikes.

My sons just bought a Stage 5, it hasn’t slowed him going uphill!

My 2012 Patriot was an awesome climber with a CCDB coil and no platform switch. I loved that bike.

On the sizing issue, I am under 5ft 8in and the medium felt too small for me. So I reckon large for you at 5ft 10in.

Fair point (it's more my stumpy legs), but the fella's 5ft 10in.

slight hijack, but quick un for you... would you ride your Stage 5 at Revolution BP?