[Closed] Orange 5 29 ... Struggling with turn in ?

Slam the stem, get over the front, lean the bike more. Some or all of those.

Fit smaller wheels 😉

You're entering the corner quicker than you thought?

More body English required generally with 29ers in smaller spaces.

Far to many variables to diagnose so far.

Had a similar problem myself recently, found that a Hans Dampf just wasn't doing it for me on the front of my bike. Have since switched to a Maxxis Minion, which has given me more confidence in the front on my bike.

Mmmm I recorded the ride on strava and according to that I smashed all the times I had set last year on the same trails on a different bike so could be going faster.

I only have one 5mm spacer below the stem would moving that make a difference.

I'm running a purgatory front tyre.

Stop and session a few corners. You do have to lean 29ers over a bit more IME.

You already got the bar as low as it'll go?

Just looked at strava again and some of the segments I have beaten my times by up to 40 seconds. So could of been going faster.

Mboy.... I popped into the shop the other day but you weren't there. Had a nice chat with one of the mechanics. Nice shop mate.

But is there rise in the Stem? Turn it over, or get a zero degree stem. Basically you need to turn the front end in harder and need to adjust your grip levels accordingly. Don't sit back up hill and take the weight off the front, get over the top of it.

I had this issue on loose gravel uphill 90 degree turns. I took 3psi out of the front tyre and all was good.

yay a renton thread

forget about the bike, watch this

Ok, I'll bite and I don't own one.. 😛

That flexy rear end of yours, you know when you turn in the front digs in and alters the angle to suit and leads you round? Well, that rear wheel of yours is bending in that swingarm so much that it's not turning in but wanting to stay bolt upright and continue straight ahead.

I reckon you'll need to think of it like an arctic truck, approach the turn and set up about 200mtrs away, then prepare, then instigate the turn about 150mtrs before the apex to allow that rear end of yours to catchup just on the apex.

HTH
😆

Cheers bigjim. I know how to corner and haven't had trouble cornering for the past 30years.

I am struggling a little on the current bike, it's not really an issue just wondering why it happens and if anyone else suffers with it.

I know how to corner and haven't had trouble cornering for the past 30years.

Great video...hadnt ever heard of riders advocating using your outside leg to 'push' against the frame and help it down into the corner....thats what my other half does on a horse!...for a left hand turn she gently pulls on the left rein but presses against the horse with her right leg....i'd best not let her on a MTB for fear she'd be better than me!

Well that solves it.

Solves what ?

Let's just be clear..

I am not selling the bike.
it isn't to small.

It was happening more where the outside of the turn was off camber so I would end up sliding down the outside of it.

Is it just a case of more steering input needed.

Isn't the usual response for stuff like this:
a) clown bike wheels are stupid
b) should have spent the money on a skills course instead of a bike you can't ride

Great video...hadnt ever heard of riders advocating using your outside leg to 'push' against the frame and help it down into the corner....thats what my other half does on a horse!...for a left hand turn she gently pulls on the left rein but presses against the horse with her right leg....i'd best not let her on a MTB for fear she'd be better than me!

I tend to try and out my weight through the outside foot.

I tend to try and out my weight through the outside foot.

Thats fine and what i suspect most of us do, coming from road motorcycles its what we did there too when hanging off on the inside of turns...only i've had to learn not to hang of the inside anymore and instead push the bike down in a moto-x style.

I expect you're riding faster and the gyroscopic effect of the bigger wheels means you simply need more steering input.

And more grip.

I didn't feel as though I was struggling for grip ?

The Wyre soil is notoriously a 26" & 27.5" friendly area, 29" is always a compromise

Ahhh That Five 29er will soon be mine .... its coming

Lower and shorter stem ,them big old 29ers need to be lent to get them round corners mate

Triangulate your weight between inside hand and outside foot and push the bike into the turn so it leans right over. If it's understeering, push more with that inside hand. Point your belly button where you want to go so that your hips shift to the outside of the bike. Look to your vanishing point.

I know how to corner and haven't had trouble cornering for the past 30years.

The Wyre soil is notoriously a 26" & 27.5" friendly area, 29" is always a compromise

Check your bars are not too wide and/or your stem is not too long.

I ran 780 bars on a 50mm stem and had a similar issue, bike just not going where I wanted it too.

Went to a 35mm stem and the bike was going exactly where I wanted it to go, just felt like I had to put a lot of arm steering input in.

Now settled on 760mm on a 50mm stem. Bob on now.

Check your bars are not too wide and/or your stem is not too long.

Thats a good shout too, the fashion for massive bars isnt for everyone....i tried 780s after enjoying the leverage of 760s...it was crap, caused me all sorts of problems including finding it weird going back to the 760s i'd previously liked.....in the end i changed stem from 45mm to 35mm and brought the bars in to 740mm, much better.

I'm not the only one, they did a bike check and interview on Dirt's website with Specialized team mechanics and Troy Brosnan, he's running 740s too.

740's don't seam to be doing Graves and Rude any harm 🙂

They're not on 29ers.

Are they?

What's that got to do with it? And don't say you need wider bars to help lean a 29er over.

Renton, you are giving Hora some competition for finding the "perfect" bike and I like your threads, a perfectly sensible question asked.

I reckon you are right - a little more physical input is needed on the larger frame and wheels. Soon it will be become natural and when you flip to a 26er you will be turning in too sharply.

Troy Brosnan is 5'5" or something isn't he? He'd be doing an aeroplane impression on wide bars!

I have a very long 29er and it takes a bit of planning, grunt and the occasional back wheel hop to get round very tight slow corners, but apart from that it corners like it's on rails. Just ride your bike, get used to it and stop worrying about component details. With your 30 years experience, as one of the most experienced mountain bikers on the internet you'll get it in no time.

Is the bike new to you?
If so just ride that terrain more so that you get used to it.

when you flip to a 26er you will be turning in too sharply.

Ain't that the truth!

What's that got to do with it? And don't say you need wider bars to help lean a 29er over.

You need wider bars to help lean a 29er over.

😛

You need wider bars to help lean a 29er over.

If you are at speed and have weak muscles! 😆

Bigger wheels = more gyroscopic effect to overcome.

You don't [i]need [/i]wider bars to be honest, but they do make a 29er feel more like a smaller-wheeled bike when steering.

All interesting stuff..

I'm connected to this thread for two reasons: a) because I sold the OP one of the bikes that he subsequently sold on here. Incredibly I was going to buy it back off him (2010 5.Spot) until he changed his mind so I bought something else (Norco) just before he promptly changed his mind again and sold it 🙄

(Seriously though, glad you've got a bike that you like mate, that's the end goal for all of us surely)

and b) because I've just bought a 29er frame (2Souls QH) and all the necessary and will be building it up this weekend. This to scratch my itch that big wheels make sense for big frames and big people (I'm 6'4"). Hopefully I'm right, but methinks I'm going to need to be working on the lean and push method of cornering to actually get the beast round anything.

Nothing helpful to add other than that as my current experience of 29ers is nil (why test ride a few when you can buy a frame you don't actually need for eye-watering sums of money and then spend the next two weeks trying to hide packages and receipts from the missus) though I'll share my thoughts (if I remember) once I've ridden it next week..

Had a good ride last night up the Wyre forest but on certain trails I was struggling with turning the bike into some corners and because of this I was running wide.

I've not changed the set up of the bike at all apart from speeding up the rebound on the rear shock ??

Any ideas what's going on ?

Running wide = not leaning the bike enough, end of story. All this chat about bike setup means nothing if you don't have enough lean angle.

If you are breaking all your strava times *groan* then you will be coming into corners faster and as a result you need to counter steer more (pushing the inside grip forwards)

The faster you go, the sooner you need to look towards the exit of the turn and the more you have to counter steer to get the bike to tip over.

Isn't the usual response for stuff like this:
a) clown bike wheels are stupid
b) should have spent the money on a skills course instead of a bike you can't ride

^ I should add they're both perfectly valid responses too.

I fount it took a while to get used to getting a long/low/slack 29er to turn in when I first got one. Just takes a bit for adjustment in your riding style. A friend told me to ride it like an MBR cover photo (exaggerated leaning/"aggression"). It works a treat.

Also I find that bikes with long front centres/short stems give you more confidence in weighting the front, as you don't feel like you're likely to go over the bars if hit something mid corner, so you can really move forward if needed.

I did try slamming the bars, but it didn't work for me.

I know that its often the STW way to just chuck money/believe there is something wrong with the bike, but I find things often just take a bit of time to adjust (as long as you are on the right size bike!).

I know how to corner

I will add to this that riding the same bike on my local trails that I know quite well now doesn't give me the same problems.

I think it's the fact that I haven't been on the trails I rode last night for over a year so didn't remember them to well coupled with the fact that I seemed to be going faster is the reason it's happening.

For the record I love the bike, it's comfy and fits me well. I'm not selling it.

@funkrodent..... I liked the five spot as well mate, really regret selling it to be honest. I'm glad I had the chance to own one though. The Orange almost rides the same as the five spot did which is another reason I like it.

Oh and I wasn't trying to brag when i say I've been riding for 30 years, just trying to explain about my riding.

No-one's cornering is perfect - I bet if you asked all the pro DHers what they'd like to improve most about their riding the majority would say cornering.

Windydave made me comment.

I've also got a five29. It's a big old long bike. It takes some man handling to control and corner, you need to put more effort into it for it to move about.

It requires more leaning for certain.

If you're going faster into corners now, as its a fast bike on the flat, you'll be turning too late, get out wide to slow your turn down, and allow you to turn the bike in smoother.

Don't change parts, all that nonsense about stems and bars is pointless, its not gonna sort out your technique.

The best advice is to get a session with a coach, or to get a riding mate who's a good rider to watch or film you, and tell you what's going wrong.

Slow in, fast out.

I don't want to change anything on it to be honest apart from the brakes. It really is comfortable.

I am not selling the bike.

it'll come good.

And when it doesn't, how much?

Touch much rear brake? back end squatting under braking making the bike slacker. OR after years and years of riding smaller wheeled bikes, your brain is still its reprogramming phase.

First thing that I'd do is rotate the bars away from you? And drop the stem. Play with that first and/or lower rise???

Buy a secondhand shorter stem too. One you can easy sell on for zero loss (X4 etc)

Rickon is spot on. I have a Alpine Five as well, coming from a 26" Five I found you can't be lazy, you actually have to ride properly, look around the corners and actually turn the bars and lean the bike.
It took a bit of getting used to, but I never have any trouble in tight stuff.

Seriously, don't **** around with tweaking things on the bike, work on your technique first! Only then think about tweaking if the bike is stopping you from executing good technique.

I dint want to change anything as 99% or the time the bike feels spot on.

It's not XC bike, big wheels slack angles, you probably just need to use more body language and be a bit more aggressive with it.

I dint want to change anything as 99% or the time the bike feels spot on.

Good call, try leaning the bike more into turns, get your weight really over the front end. I really press myself into the bike on turns to get the weight on the front tyre.

I'd remove that 5mm spacer, will actually make a difference and it's free.

Good call, try leaning the bike more into turns, get your weight really over the front end. I really press myself into the bike on turns to get the weight on the front tyre

Boom! We are pretty much back to the first post. PayPal gift will be fine Renton.

I will try removing the spacer and see what happens.

The stem will drop 5mm

Cheers

Nice one cheers for that.

I meant to the handling of the bike.

absolutely nothing, I would imagine.

Will move your mass slightly lower and further forward. Should help the front wheel bite a little more.

mikeep - Member

Will move your mass slightly lower and further forward

Remember those old threads about wrist pain.....

The stem will drop 5mm

Assuming 66 degree head angle, removing a 5mm spacer -

x = 5 - (5*cos66)
x = 2.97

So it will drop 2.97mm.

So it will drop 2.97mm.

....and if not, I'd agree with comments about a coaching session. Best 'upgrade' for many of us..

Not having it, It will still move 5mm down the steerer.

[i]....and if not, I'd agree with comments about a coaching session. Best 'upgrade' for many of us.. [/i]

+1

Also can't fail with a grippier front tyre.

iainc - Member
So it will drop 2.97mm.
....should be enough to bring the trails alive I reckon

Havent you heard that only happens if you drop it 2.75!

Pfffft. It's a 29er, morons. Only 650b makes the trails come alive.

Assuming 66 degree head angle, removing a 5mm spacer -

x = 5 - (5*cos66)
x = 2.97

So it will drop 2.97mm.

Weight front more, counter steer harder, look through corner properly. 29ers require more input to turn in than 26 or "that wheel size for people that cannot ride 29ers properly".

[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering ]Countersteering[/url]

Countersteering? Not intuitive, but good on a longer bike such as 29er FS

Flame me but - so you have to adapt your riding style and give it more force/cohere or as you call it 'body language it'?

For me a bike should feel at one with you on trail riding- you lean it goes etc. For you to over ride the bloody thing isn't right.

As for coaching? Coach you into adapting how to ride on a bike that isn't intuitive for the sort of riding that you want?

You should have coaching to make you a better rider not to be able to iron out the inadequacies of a bike manufacturers design/concept.

I'll stick with 26/26 and 650b/26 for all my trail needs 😀

We know that's how you feel hora 🙂

For me a bike should feel at one with you on trail riding- you lean it goes etc. For you to over ride the bloody thing isn't right.

Wow this has got a bit out of hand hasn't it.

For me the bike feels perfect. I am totally happy with how it rides and seem to have gotten used to it already.

Looking at the two sections where it ran wide they were quite high speed and the corner tightened up. It could of been the gyroscopic effect of the larger wheels or something else.

I certainly never felt like I need more front end grip.

Hora.... No offence mate but you talk out of your arris most of the time and currently run a bike that Is to small for you with the wrong size wheels.

AlexSimon - Member

Assuming 66 degree head angle, removing a 5mm spacer -

x = 5 - (5*cos66)
x = 2.97

So it will drop 2.97mm.
That sounds extreme - I make it 4.57mm drop for a 5mm spacer.
(66 degrees is measured from horizontal)

You are correct, in my rush to add a witty comment I rushed my geometry calc.

Looking at the two sections where it ran wide they were quite high speed and the corner tightened up. It could of been the gyroscopic effect of the larger wheels

having had much hilarity riding with sanny on his 'monster fat' at Mugdock with 5 inch tyres last night I'd say that youve nailed it there 🙂

Flame me but - so you have to adapt your riding style and give it more force/cohere or as you call it 'body language it'?

For me a bike should feel at one with you on trail riding- you lean it goes etc. For you to over ride the bloody thing isn't right.

As for coaching? Coach you into adapting how to ride on a bike that isn't intuitive for the sort of riding that you want?

You should have coaching to make you a better rider not to be able to iron out the inadequacies of a bike manufacturers design/concept.

Only because renton (and others) grew up on 26" bikes, and have adapted to riding them. We weren't born and then ready to ride bikes, you had to learn.

Anything that's a little bit different requires you to adjust a little bit, road bikes, 29ers, etc...

I guess that's why some people give up on certain bikes, because they can't be bothered to put effort into getting used to riding them.

hora - Member
Flame me

Ok then. Did you ever stop to consider that with the exception of Renton's machine being called a "bike" most of it is different to his old one? Geo, setup, handling, size, components etc.

Do you expect that if I gave you a Harley for a year you'd then be able to jump an Ducatti 916 and be able to handle it perfectly?

I have noticed your attitude toward women is the same despite the intended victim, but beyond that please use some common sense.

Back to helping you with running wide - I find this occasionally with my 29ers, having a little too much speed and starting to run wide. I've got into the habit of just feathering the rear brake to bring the rear around a bit and thus straighten the bike up.

Try practicing it on the particular section you mention.

'Your attitute towards women'. Im sorry, what?

I posted up a differing of opinion but no ill will towards Renton and you post a fairly reasonable retort but why that line on women?