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4 of us out for a ride today - 1 of the group has an issue with his bottom bracket half way round. We find a bike shop and buy the parts to sort it out. The guy in the shop knows we've got about 20 miles to go, and all we have with us is trail tools. We ask if we could very quickly use a tool of his to fit the bits we've just bought from him (he's already told us he's not in a position to fit it for us) - to which he refuses out right. I think he's a bit of a cock - but am I being unreasonable?
Yes
Problem of his own creation, really... Not reasonable to expect other people to bail him out.
Shops lending tools- shop tools are expensive, and if you lend stuff out there's a reasonable chance it goes missing or gets damaged, so there's good reasons not to lend to strangers. So I can't say he's a cock, but I think he's also possibly not the nicest human being- he's not been unreasonable but he could have done more.
name and shame
Tough one. I've had people not return tools, so the next day I can't repair paying customers bikes. I'm out of business, have to shut the shop, and go and spend my own time and money replacing my own tools.
What tool were you after?
I take it you were going to do it there and then in front of the shop? Or at least in the very near vicinity?
Yeah, I'd say they're not coming across well- but what do I know?- I keep getting east and west mixed up.
I don't lend the tools I use to earn my living to anyone.
And if I'm asked I explain it exactly like that.
I would expect anyone else who uses tools to earn money to do the same.
50/50 he could have been busy using the tools hence not able to fix your mates bike. Also as above stuff goes missing, gets covered in crap/damaged etc.
Neal- what if they were going to do the job as you watched, then hand them straight back to you?
You didn't sell a guy on a ride with his mates a bb recently did you?
I can understand your point though..
I've lost track of the number of tools I've lent out and not got back - up to and including a £150 BB facing tool.
Neal- what if they were going to do the job as you watched, then hand them straight back to you?
Probably not, some of my stuff is pretty easy to damage and cost a fortune.
Anyone who knows how to use them properly, would have their own.
Plus, I can't afford to replace them, and without them I can't earn.
You didn't sell a guy on a ride with his mates a bb recently did you?
No I don't work in the same trade.
I can understand your point though..
Good 🙂
one local shop had a sign
"The guy who lends out tools is out buying more tools"
If you were going to do it in front of his very eyes in his shop and he wasn't using them himself then I'd say he's being unreasonable - given that it's very hard to damage a BB spanner. If you were going to walk outside then I can understand his reticence...
Yes.
It usually escalates.
Can I borrow a spanner?
Can I borrow a preload tool?
Can I take over a corner of the shop and make a mess?
Can I borrow a hammer?
Its stuck.Have you got a bar?
I've dropped the spacers-can I have some more?
Can you face it whilst I'm here?
Can I have some anti seize?
It won't go in,what have I done wrong?
Why are my cranks stiff?
Can you check I've done it right?
I gave you back the spanner?
It wasbroken when you gave it to me.
I never borrowed a hammer?
Closely followed by slating the poor 'customer service' to anyone who'll listen.
If you were going to fit the part in the shop, then I'd say yes. Or you could have bought the tool from his shop - assuming he had one in stock to sell (BB spanner by chance?). Perhaps that's what he was hoping, an extra £20 for a tool.
If you were going to fit the part in the shop, then I'd say yes. Or you could have bought the tool from his shop - assuming he had one in stock to sell (BB spanner by chance?). Perhaps that's what he was hoping, an extra £20 for a tool.
Reminds I must get my tools back I lent out for one quick job should be done, 2 years ago now.
Seems silly but as mentioned his tools are his living.
given that it's very hard to damage a BB spanner
I've also lost track of the number of BB tools I've broken - and I'm a professional.
You either lend your stuff to anyone who asks, and risk loss or damage, or you do not lend at all. LBS guy can't be making judgements on everyone's trustworthiness.
I used to keep a box of 'customer tools' for such occasions (in my younger less before I had the humanity drained from my soul).I was emptied in 2 weeks.Used to keep a track pump on a chain for customer use...got nicked,got replaced,got nicked,got replaced,got nicked,gave up.
He's also on dodgy grounds with his insurance possibly. I doubt very much that his public liability insurers would be too delighted if a customer got injured using shop tools and shop workshop space, got injured and sued.
Also, 5 miles into the ride, bb falls out, rider falls off and dies (or worse still from purely an insurance view is in a wheelchair for life), shop gets the blame for letting an inexperienced mechanic use their stuff etc and family sues.
Its crap I know but that's the way these things work (I'm an insurance underwriter, I see claims like this - it does happen).
Cheers
Danny B
I think it depends on the way the whole thing panned out,
Scenario 1; you go into the shop, explain the fact that your stranded 20miles from home and need a repair to get you home, he recommends the parts needed for the fix and sells them to you and only then turns around and says you can’t use any workshop tools, then he’s being a bit of a cock.
Scenario 2; you go into the shop, ask for XYZ, which he sells you and then when you explain the situation he refuses to lend you the tools, then it’s more understandable.
In either situation I would want a refund on the parts that I’d just bought which were effectively useless. The next time your mates want some new bikes/shoes/shorts etc. and need to try some on for size before buying cheaper online I can guess where they’re going!
I broke a pedal and bought a new set from Alpine bikes (in Glentress). I asked the chap if I could also borrow a large allen key to get the pedal off, and they offered my the use of the workstand too.
Also I snapped a seatpost (towards the end of a ride) and went in looking for an I-Beam one, they didn't have any but offered me a lend of a demo post/seat so I wouldn't spoil my day.
But, it depends on the circumstances and I'd have asked before buying the BB.
In either situation I would want a refund on the parts that I’d just bought which were effectively useless.
A nice credit note for you then as there's nothing wrong with the parts.
I understand all the arguments about not lending tools but not helping a customer to find a solution to a problem like this is not a good way to build a business. Assuming it's an external BB it's a 5-minute job (or a low-risk lend) that will make the difference between winning goodwill or getting roasted on the Internet.
I think a lot depends on the context op. If you buy on line and keep your bike in order it can save you a lot of unpleasant trips to an LBS, and saves an LBS monkey the mental anguish of having to deal with your unreasonable/ robbing intentions.
Agreed Cheezpleez lot to be said for extra customer service.
Does he sell BB tools? If so he's got a good reason to refuse.
Yes.
It usually escalates.
Can I borrow a spanner?
Can I borrow a preload tool?
Can I take over a corner of the shop and make a mess?
Can I borrow a hammer?
Its stuck.Have you got a bar?
I've dropped the spacers-can I have some more?
Can you face it whilst I'm here?
Can I have some anti seize?
It won't go in,what have I done wrong?
Why are my cranks stiff?
Can you check I've done it right?
I gave you back the spanner?
It wasbroken when you gave it to me.
I never borrowed a hammer?
Closely followed by slating the poor 'customer service' to anyone who'll listen.
You are right!
Yes, you are being unreasonable. If it had been me, I would have offered to fit it for you and charged you for the pleasure. Or I might have told you to go forth and multiply.
Never EVER ask a mechanic/engineer of any sort to borrow tools unless you know them very, very well. Know as in the biblical sense.
Would you go into a car garage and say can I borrow your ramp?
He would have had to watch you doing it or risk losing the tool. He didn't have the time to do that. Personally I would have made you pay a deposit on the tool, credit card and then lent it
A nice credit note for you then as there's nothing wrong with the parts.
Not in scenario 1, the parts supplied don't enable you to fix the bike so are not fit for purpose.
Not in scenario 1, the parts supplied don't enable you to fix the bike so are not fit for purpose.
Why then as that's the parts needed not having the tools to fix it yourself if nothing to do with part being not fit for purpose. That's like saying a TV is not fit for purpose as they didn't supply a HDMI cable or screwdriver to fit the stand on with.
How could
whenbits go missing
happened 😕We ask if we could very quickly use a tool of his to fit the bits we've just bought from him
Would you go into a car garage and say can I borrow your ramp?
I would and have asked my the LBS if I can use their pump after having some work done in said LBS...
Same but different...
I won't even lend my tools to my mates anymore. Call me a grumpy old git if you like, but I've spent a lot of time and money gathering all the specialist tools I need to fix my bike, my mates haven't bothered, and expect to borrow mine. When I used to lend, they wouldn't come back, and I'd have to drive for an hour or so to retrieve them next time they were needed.
Instead, I now offer for them to bring their bike (and a couple of beers) over to my place on a Sunday and I'll help'em fix it. Works bettter for all concerned.
Bloody hell. I hope I never have the misfortune to shop in any of the LBS' owned by those here. A fellow rider with 20 miles left to cycle, and you wouldn't let him borrow a BB tool (for use in the shop), having just sold him a BB? Insurance? 😯
I Would have got a refund there and then. A refusal would have resulted in trying to waste the blokes entire day.
If you can sue your gym for falling off a treadmill or you can sue your employer when you get injured having a nail gun fight because they didn't give you training that said having nail gun fights was dangerous and wrong then you can sue your LBS for letting you use their tools and then getting injured on their premises or as a result of the work.
Those examples are taken from confirmed claims experiences (a document insurers provide to other insurers when looking at a piece of business) that I have seen with my own fair eyes.
The nail gun kid got £50k!
Cheers
Danny B
<goes to find a nail gun>
<remembers I'm self-employed>
willber - Member
We find a bike shop and buy the parts to sort it out
Well you obviously didn't.
[img] http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRw3QQT2F1VTDMer83_u8kuVPH5x6vx-O7yY9WVPXnV7PdOTT3e [/img]
vs
[img] http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRrf-BfnEkXNsKccIrp_MSekTYPVe_EHyu0T0EfvFngMqsXXZ3a [/img]
willber
Please post the shop name so that if I have a mechanical problem with 20 miles to go I know to push straight past it and not waste any time or money there.
He sounds like a bit of a cock.
He sounds like a bit of a cock.
Disagree. There are rules for tools.
Possibly mecahnic was being narky, but similarly maybe the OP could have helped things by buying a few extra inner tubes / energy bars / coffee.
As an ex-mechanic I don't lend my tools out, and they still manage to go missing.
Why didnt you just say "I will buy this part if you lend me the tool to fit it - the tool wll not leave this shop". If he says no then whats the point of buying it - wait till you get home then buy it on CRC for half the price.
Has the world gone mad? Of course he should be helping you out if he CAN. (based on your scenario).
Profit/awkwardness in front of being a half decent Human. Shame on you lot!
the whole point of using your local ish bike shop is based around customer service with out this why bother, i had similar probs with a shop near me had a puncture went in the shop asked how much to fix tried to charge me £20, so in the end asked if i could just borrow the work shop pump and i would fix the puncture my self, no was his answer, so then u decide wether or not to use his shop in the future, guys with attitudes like that shouldnt open shops, they should just do mail order on the net, his shop has since closed no sympathy from me or quite a few other people what goes around comes around, a prime example why so many people shop on line serious lack of customer services these days
Why didnt you just say "I will buy this part if you lend me the tool to fit it - the tool wll not leave this shop". If he says no then whats the point of buying it - wait till you get home then buy it on CRC for half the price.
+1
I guess, he's a bit blinkered. You could be on here saying "Dave at ABC Bikes is a top bloke, he got us out of a right hole half way through a ride"
But instead....
We dont have to worry, he will be out of business pretty quick with that kind of attitude. Denying the only market he has left - this being the "I need this bit right now!" market.
Had a problem with a crank bros pedal on a work to Balloch pootle last year, axle seized solid (bet that's never happened before eh?) and the chap at the bike shop at Bowling was kind enough to lend me a pedal spanner after I bought some spds from him.
Forgot my spd shoes a few years back on a Glentress trip- the chaps in the (old) shop were kind enough to lend me a set of flats and tools again a pedal spanner so I could fit them- and didn't charge me a penny.
I like that there's still helpful and trusting folk in the world.
I like that there's still helpful and trusting folk in the world.
Which is why I still lend out tools if I like the look of you.
Which is why I still lend out tools if I like the look of you.
This is pretty much what it came down to for me when I was a mechanic. If you gave the impression of being the sort of person who was going to break my tools or take them or is generally a bit incompetent, I'd not lend them (for example, if you're the sort of person who's happy to set of on a ride with a BB that's already pretty much shot and you didn't realise).
If you looked trustworthy, or it was something simple like a pump (and even then most people will come back in asking how it works) then I would.
Sadly, these days, you aren't allowed to let people into your workshop unless they're employees under 95% of bike shop insurance policies. And so having them work on their filthy bike and use grease out in your nice clean shop floor whilst you try and deal with other customers isn't ideal, and bike shops rarely have enough staff to let someone supervise you (if they have time to supervise you they'd do it themselves).
So, yes, it is a pain, and it can come across as rude, but there are too many issues for shops to safely lend you tools. They will almost always do their best to help you out, but it's a risky thing to lend tools.
A few years ago I turned up in Hayfield with two frames and 3 wheels for me and my wife.
Went to ask in the bike hire place if I could possibly rent a wheel for the day and the lovely chap there lent me one and wouldn't take any money for it. Pretty high possibility of damage to a wheel I'd have thought too. Or maybe he recognised my minciness.....
Don't lend my tools out, aside of the odd allen key, have lent some other stuff out before at races resulting in it getting dropped and lost in the grass or rounded, luckily I have 2 of most critical things.
To replace a bb that's potentially quite a few tools, most of which would be fairly easy to damage and good stuff isn't cheap either, so you'll be stuff for your next job if they get mangled.
If you were stuck I'd probably have fitted the job in, however this could have turned into a 2 hour job if the rest of the bike was in state and it'll have been covered in muck too.
So no don't think he was being an arse, he was busy so couldn't do the job and wasn't willing to lend you £200 worth of tools that would potentially get damaged.
BB's don't just fail instantly either
They had trail tools, so could have removed the cranks themselves. Literally all they needed was a BB tool, and the Park ones are £20. Even if someone knocked on my front door, I'd lend them one and I haven't even sold them anything.
Name and Shame. We can decide if we want to use them or not.
Ultimately it is the shops decision. They are under no obligation. If for whatever reason they do not want to lend you tools then that is their prerogative. Public whining and hand wringing does'nt change that .
Step 1.Get over it
Step 2.Move on.
If you want to know who it was there was something on it earlier in the week.
I wouldn't have lent out the tools myself, as Loco said a BB isn't something that dies instantly.
The only time I have borrowed tools from a shop I waved a 6 pack in the mechanics face (and also explained that I was an experienced mechanic....).
As recently stated, BB's don't just fall apart. People have to take some sort of responsibility for their actions (or inaction....).
Also, some people don't seem to understand just how busy a workshop can be. We make time for tube changes, gear adjusts, pad installs, brake adjusts etc but a bottom bracket CAN be problematic. A cup could be seized in the frame. It could have been cross threaded. It's one of those jobs that CAN take a few minutes, or you can be ****ing about with torches, fluids and long bars and end up getting it out over the course of two days in between other jobs.
Having a customer p!ssing about on the retail floor fumbling away for an hour trying to fix things while getting in the way of other customers and getting grease everywhere is a major pain in the arus.
The lesson to be learned here is to check over your own bike periodically rather than waiting for it to explode in the middle of nowhere.
All lent tools are broken tools!
Cant think of a single time borrowed tools came back in the condition I thought they were.
BUT
Yes! He is a div to sell a part he knows is useless if its needed then and there...
My LBS owner is a star.
I recently needed a headset fitting to a frame and don't have a headset press. He'd just had an operation on his wrist so couldn't do it for me but instead said I could do it myself in his workshop.
One headset was fitted to frame, crown race fitted to the fork, no tools were broken. He didn't even want any money but I insisted on a fiver to go in his holiday fund.
He also got another £70 of business as I bought a couple of tools and a new chain.
I'd have thought that most decent LBS would have quickly fitted a BB that has just been bought from them to help someone who was stuck 20 miles from home. The customer would be singing the praises of the shop.
I think this thread shows people who have worked/work in the trade and those that dont.
The tools are how a shop makes its money etc...
Not un-reasonable to not lend out tools...could have offered to do the work for you? Squeeze it in, however the job that always looks like a quick job normally throws up problems.
I'd say the unreasonable one is your mate for setting off on a ride without a working bike! Fair enough if it "just breaks" (smashing a rear mech on a rock or something) but BBs tend to fail gradually and give you enough warning to fix them.
It's a pet hate of mine turning up for a ride and someone arives with a bike in bits and expects you all to wait while they "just fix" something...
Not unreasonable for a shop to refuse to lend out tools, especially expensive ones. Track pump/allen keys etc, yes but lending out tools to do a full BB rebuild in a corner of his shop? And then the customer ballsing it up and asking for help and suddenly the shop owner is looking at an unscheduled job occupying his workstand for 30 minutes while other pre-booked work gets put to one side.
Is it unreasonable to not lend your own tools? No
If LBS's want to survive do they need to offer "added value" and go the extra mile? Yes.
Their choice.
So would anyone here buy some wood from a timber yard and expect the owner to lend you a saw and maybe some clamps whilst you did a bit of DIY in his shop?
Maybe you could take the wood to B+Q, buy some paint and borrow one of their brushes to paint it with in the shop?
FFS
Grease wrnech monkey veteran here - lending out tools is a PITA, often you have folk losing them, breaking them, coming back inwith "could you give us a hand", "how do we do x" etc.
The mechanic has no way of knowing whether you know what you are talking about.
In those circumstances I might lend the tool or allow someone to fix their bike in the shop though.
I would have asked for a refund on the bottombracket. No good to you if you cant fit it.
And totally agree - the shop owner/shop assistant is a cock.
If it was an external BB. The splines on the BottomBracket would round off before you came close to breaking the BB-tool.
If internal BB. Once again, its the threads on chainset thats gonna go before the actual extractor.
None of the tools he could have borrowed you would have cost more than £20.
Lesson learnt though. Avoid the shop. Warn others to never use the shop. And name and shame on here for good measure.
His shop, his tools, his choice. Lending out tools is a big no no and as previous posters have said, it soon turns into more than a simple case of lending a bb tool. Personally, given the situation I would have supplied and fitted the bb - it takes very little time to do so (assuming it's a relatively new bike, external bb, not a 20 year old frame complete with seized bb) - the rider would have continued on his way, and I'd have had more money in the till. It does depend on the customers attitude too though, and how they approach the shop keeper.
So would anyone here buy some wood from a timber yard and expect the owner to lend you a saw and maybe some clamps whilst you did a bit of DIY in his shop?
Maybe you could take the wood to B+Q, buy some paint and borrow one of their brushes to paint it with in the shop?
FFS
B&Q will cut any timber that you buy for you.
At our local store, the first 15 cuts are free, then it's 50p a cut.
But they'll also split your order in two for you if you're buying enough to need more than 15 cuts, so that's 30 free.
It's called customer service.
Ultimately it is the shops decision. They are under no obligation.
That's not in dispute. But he still sounds like a cock.
we keep it really simple, and its exactly the same for everyone
no one borrows any tools from our workshop, even the shop staff
it's been this way in the last 6 shops I have worked in (independants and chain stores)
others have explained why mechanics do not lend tools, in addition our liability insurers are very strict about this issue, due to previous payouts to customers who have maimed themselves using lent tools 🙁
of course we would always try to accomodate a customer IF times permits
but, we'd never drop everything in the middle of a pre-paid £6,500 custom build where the customer is collecting that evening
or get drawn into the other problem, where the BB fitment suddenly develops into a range of other issues (front derailleur / chain / loose swingarm pivot, missing spokes, etc.) that need sorting before the bike is safe and ready to leave the workshop
I can only assume that those who have suggested the LBS guy was being unreasonable sit behind a desk for a living.
In which case, my computer has a virus, but I've got my memory stick here, can I please borrow your PC for a couple of minutes so I can finish this letter / report/ essay I'm writing? Thought not.
As we all know (hopefully), there are two sides to every story. Attitude is everything and generally I have found those people who spout 'customer is king' come up a little short on courtesy, politeness and general bon homme.
It's a tricky one, however please do not name and shame because maybe, just maybe the attitude of the group when entering the shop was not all that convivial and could be the reason for refusal.
Please do not ask to borrow the tools I have invested in for me to put food on my table, as refusal may offend.
FWIW I'd never ask an lbs for the loan of it's tools, as i rarely use them and this is mainly due to how unpleasant i found some of my dealings with them which are exampled by some lbs folk on here. I just found it 'better' to learn to do stuff myself. I could be jealous, having worked in a&e's for years i don't get to choose my customers and moved well beyond judging those i deal with, it's rarely worth the hassle. I'm surprised that i seem a lot less bitter than those who work in lbs's, i never realised it was such a harsh environment to exist in. As with all of these threads, there are good and bad lbs', and good and bad customers; fortunately we get to choose which we want to be.
Its not as if the guy just walked in off street asking to borrow the tool. He had bought the part in an emergency.
The shop had said they were too busy to do it. So why not let fella use tool in such a situation?
People who think shop was reasonable - would they fancy the 20mile push home, knowing full well the shop had the tool to sort it ?
Sounds like shop was trying to blackmail guy into buying the BB tool.
Aside from fixing a puncture. Swapping BB is one of the easiest DIY jobs.
if you bought the parts assuming without asking that he'd let you borrow the tools (or checking if he'd fit them for you if not) then you're the twits, if you ask me.
Swapping BB is one of the easiest DIY jobs.
It can be or it can turn into a total nightmare. Stripped threads, rounded crank bolt, bits all over the place, seized cups...
Maybe the shop *could* easily have fitted it but that means taking time out from pre-booked jobs to do it. Yes it might be 10 mins but it might be 2hrs if there are further problems. Last thing a shop wants is a hoard of muddy bikers faffing round in a corner trying to fix a BB using their expensive tools. 5 mins on a puncture is one thing, taking a bike to pieces is quite another.
Suppose you've ordered a £3000 bike and you're having it built by the shop on Saturday for collection that evening for your first ride out on it on Sunday. You call by the shop that night and they say "oh sorry mate, we didn't do it cos some chump walked in having knackered his BB so we fitted that for £20 and didn't have time to finish your new pride and joy"
Priorities. I'd say going for a ride with a worn BB was the problem, not the shops attitude to fixing it.
^^ agreed
a big problem for a busy workshop, is that...its busy!
we have customers booked into our workshop at least 1 week in advance even in the off-season, and potentially 2-3 weeks in advance during the peak season
that also includes customers buying new bikes, or having custom builds, which always take priority over bike repairs..
as I mentioned in my previous post, we will always try to accommodate "on the spot repairs" but when busy its often not possible, we don't have a spare mechanic with a spare workstand and spare toolkit just hanging about for those instances
customers who have booked in advance always get priority, as the aspect to taking "on the spot repairs", is that we then bump the pre-booked customers down the timetable to the point where we don't get their repairs finished on the day when expected, which means apologies, loss of goodwill and offer compensation like reduced price servicing or vouchers to spend in the shop
the other aspect to "on the spot repairs" (excepting a puncture, which can happen anytime) is that its often for customers who have neglected their bike to the point where it eventually fails, causing the situation the OP mentioned.
And with those bikes, its rarely just the BB issue the OP mentioned, but a host of other neglect-related issues that a competent Cytech / C&G professional mechanic will not let "out" of their workshop due to concerns about liability! That BB fitment can turn into 1-2 hours of messing about
I've lost count of the number of things that have been lent and not returned
It's somthing we tend not to do anymore except for those we know very well
But every situation is differant sounds like the shop could have done things a little differant
And the tools we have are far more than £20 worth
Socket fitting bb tools snap on ratchets etc
The fsa external bb socket is now a silly price to replace
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mobile/MobileModels.aspx?ModelID=36385
IMO, the mechanic knows BB's don't just fail so is well aware that the bike he is being asked to lend tools for is potentially a bit of a heap and therefore probably going to be problematic. Also, if its a heap, the rider isn't much of a mechanic and so will be more likely to damage any tools he uses.
The tools are the mechanics, therefore it's his decision if he wants to lend them out or not, he isn't he RAC or AA and so is under no obligation to get you going again.
He has just taught your pal a very important lesson though. Sort your bike out before the ride, not during.
It boils my wee wee when mechanicals happen on a ride that have effectively been caused by simple bike neglect.
To the few people that think that shops should lend tools to anyone who walks through the door, would you even offer anything in return or is it all just ME ME ME? Hell, if I was in the middle of nowhere and the shop did not have time to help me, I'd see if I could just pay the labour charge, do the work myself and get on with my life. If the shop said no and turned down the cash, then fair enough but it'd be worth a try.
LOL at the lbs shop assistants here bulling it with the expensive tools line ..
Its a £20 tool thats only needed.
Typical to see how lbs will make a tiny thing such as undoing a BB into a technical 2hr job requiring £200 worth od fragile specialist tool ...and you need to be highly skilled to do it lol
yep - easy to see why lbs is in decline.
For the record. I have a pretty good bike tool collection. Many times people in work have asked to borrow different tools to sort their own bikes at home. Worse scenario I have ever had from helping them, is that it comes back a bit oily ..