You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Hello all,
First time poster long time lurker.
I've come into mountain biking and bikepacking from a hiking background. I've been into UL hiking for about 12 years now and munro bagging for the last 4. I used to BMX when I was a teenager, and in my twenties I was obsessed with longboarding. Now, in my thirties, the biking bug has bitten me again.
Two years ago I bought a budget 29er to dip my toes so to speak. A Carrera Sulcata. I've now had several bikepacking trips, mostly overnighters but also a 4 day adventure around the Cairngorm loop (at a leisurely pace). The bike performed well enough but it is definitely budget kit and I have grown to dislike the bike, in particular the geometry (bike feels short and unstable) and budget hardware (especially the brakes and shocks) making for an unsafe feeling ride, unresponsive turning, and inconsistent braking.
I'm not an n+1 cyclist and I would like to keep my stable to '1'. It therefore needs to be able to handle commuting & shopping duties, AND touring/bikepacking on gravel, single track, techy stuff.
Therefore I've been looking for a KISS type bike, namely a relatively slack steel hardtail that is 29 and 27.5 compatible. After spending far far too long comparing bikes and deals I've narrowed down to the Onza Payoff.
However, hoping some people could give some advice as I am very much the newb when it comes to technical knowledge:
- The Payoff is said to be 29/27.5 compatible. Fine. But there is (almost) nothing online about people running it 27.5+. I'd like to set up the bike with two wheelsets, 27.5x2.8 tubeless monstrosities for mountain fun on maybe 30-35 id rims, and a sick set (<2") of 29ers for city use. Is this going to work out for me with this rig? Onza don't list BB drop dimensions.
- Further to the above, I cannot find much on the rim spec. A bit of googling would suggest the id is 19mm on the rims but I am not 100%. Can anyone confirm? Can anyone recommend good city (tarmac/gravel) tires that'd pair nicely with the stock rims?
- My main concern is the gear range on the Payoff. 32 chainring and 11-34 cassette gives 1.03 - 3.19 if my maths is correct, which is a narrower range tham my sulcata, which is 0.82 - 3.83. I definitely find myself using the low end of the gear range on big days out. How is the best way to add some low end range? I see a few possibilities:
1) Replace cassette with a wider range. Do I need to change rear mech or shifter for this?
2) Add a front mech and second ring to make it a 2x10. Probably an expensive route? Would need to buy accompanying hardware inc shifter
3) Add a cog to the cassette? No idea if this is feasible?
4) Swap my chainring for one with more teeth. I'd gain some low end at the expense of high end.
- Can anyone confirm the Rock Shox Revelation solo air has a lockout? I believe it does?
- I'd like to try running a rear rack and small panniers instead of current seatpack for a few reasons, but mainly to allow me to add a seat dropper. As the frame doesn't have eyelets whats the best way to securely mount something like a titanium Tubus rack?
Any help would really be appreciated on this one! I'm loving digging into the subject matter, leanring new nomenclature, reading reviews, etc, but theres nothing like getting direct responses to queries.
Thanks!
Genesis Longitude.
Hi,
For bike packing I’d want a 30 upfront with at least a 11-46 at the back. Depends on the mech some will go to 46 some don’t.
I’ve been using the same rack since starting riding in 1997. It’s been on some bikes with p clips and some with mounts. I’ve only broken one clip but If I was buying a bike specifically for that I’d find one with them.
Swapping all that sounds expensive.
I’d find a bike that had all of that rather than upgrading.
Think the payoff is cheap enough (699?) At the mo to make it worth swapping the cassette, sunrace 11-42 10 SPD would do without changing anything else, lack of mounts would be a bigger issue for bike packing. P clips would sort that so not massive but an extra faff.
I've got one as my hardtail, had it about 4 years, very happy with it as a trail bike, they are quite heavy though.
11-34 is a pretty narrow range these days. Can certainly fit a wider range cassette. Are you 10 spied currently? Lots of wide range options in 10, 11 or 12 speed - you'll most likely need new shifter, chain, cassette and derailleur though - even if you're 10 speed currently, your existing derailleur might not cope with a wide range cassette - A Deore 10-speed 11-40 cassette and chain might work with your existing shifter, which then allows you to fit a bigger front ring for more low end.
Lots of versions of the Revelation about, most have a compression lever that's basically a lockout.
On-One Bootzipper might be a more backpacking friendly style of bike, although rigid and not recommended for suspension.
Sorry guys, can't figure out how to quote properly.
Fine bike but non-sus corrected geometry is a no go. I do like the idea of a rigid bike but in reality some squish will be useful.
Theres a good sale on the tarn 20 just now on edinburghcycles which was tempting but its still £1200.
Yes I think upgrading the drivetrain in one way or another is going to be expensive. I suppose the cheapest solution would be to size down my chainring. Rough calculations:
32t = 24-76 gear inch
30t = 23-71 gear inch
28t = 31-67 gear inch
Sizing down so far does give me concern over top speed tho!
The other idea, which I have NO idea whether is practical, a done thing, or verboten, is to add a second chainring but not the mech or shifter. Similar in how a dinglespeed is setup. Would it even be feasible to have, say, a 28t and a 42t rings and change 'by hand' depending on terrain?
I think however, considering the current sale on Onza bikes (Payoff is £699) it still looks like great value. Might be worth just accepting the narrower range and upgrading it as and when it wears out.
I can find bikes that 'have it all' but these tend to be out of budget.
A 10-speed wide range cassette and *possibly* a new mech (loads on ebay if needed) will be cheap and give you the same range as a classic 3x9 from the olden days.
Grand, I'll check out the sunrace cassette you mentioned. If everything else can stay as is a wider range 10 speed cassette does seem appealing!
Happy with a heavy bike. It'll still be heavy when I strap all my gear to it 😛 Somewhere in the range of 5-8kg baseweight (excluding consumables but including soft luggage) depending on season.
Regarding mounts, willing to sacrifice braze-ons numbers and locations. I certainly don't need one studded with them. My last trip I had an 11 litre seatpack, 4 litre framebag (tiny), and a half filled 22l rucksack (including a mirrorless system and lenses). However this was going relatively UL in shoulder season and I definitely need more space for winter or longer unsupported trips.
I'm confident that a slightly larger frame bag + small panniers (12.5l each or thereabouts) would allow me to ditch the backpack altogether and still be more flexible in packing.
Thanks for the confirmation on the shocks.
Do you think the cassette thestablisier suggested would be compatible to the derailleur? (Shimano SLX Shadow)
On-one do look good but as it is not sus-corrected it's a no go for now. Also not keen on the raw finish, I suspect it won't look so pretty after a few seasons use.
Personally can't see why you would want suspension on a bike with 27.5+
A rigid bike is more reliable than a suspension fork, and weighs loads more.
I think you need to ask yourself what you want the bike to do first and foremost, then go from there.
You mention that you find the Carrera short - I dont know the geometry of it but the payoff is pretty short by modern standards. It's also not very slack - about 68.5 degrees with 120mm forks.
I wouldn't worry about bb height - a 29 wheel with eg. A 2.3 tyre will raise the bb about 5mm versus a 27.5 with a 2.8.
Not overly concerned with weight, more concerned about comfort and fun. I suffer from deQuervain's tendonitis and front sus helps smooth out the ride and lessen the impact on my wrists.
I'm happy to consider a rigid bike if its a good deal, with the caveat that the geometry is sus corrected so I can swap forks out at a later date.
Unfortunately they dont list dimensions and geometry for the Carrera. I guess I could go find a measuring tape, might give me a better idea when comparing on paper.
Carrera was a small frame, probably a mistake, I'm 5'8" with 29"inseam. Felt squashed into the cockpit, especially on descents, exacerbated by fixed saddle height.
What would you recommend for a relatively slack hardtail? My impression was the Onza is slacker than a touring-derived bikepacking bike (like the genesis longitude)
/e: Just checked, longitude is 68deg. Hmm.
I rode the bare bones bikepacking winter ride a couple of times a couple of years apart.
Once on a 2002 cove stiffee, 70 degree head angle, short top tube, panniers,
Once on a new ish 2018 orange clockwork 120 with a slack set taking the head angle to 65, and soft bags.
The biggest difference was taking less stuff.
It was still slow up the hills and tricky in places both times.
The panniers caught in one place. I just walked it. I rode the same bit the next time.
So I’d say get a low enough gear to get up the hills and any bike will let you get out and get some great times.
My memories from both trips were the people, laughs, food, views And problems with maps.
If you like the look of the Onza, go for it and make it work. Ive ridden the Jen ride for the last 3 years. It’s 100 miles in the lakes over two days. It’s an awesome event. I’ve done it on my geometron the last couple of rides ( super slack full suspension). People have done it with me on full rigid plus bikes, hardtails and full suss bikes.
Everyone could tell you why theirs was the best for the ride and everyone was right.
It’s not about the bike, to swipe a phrase, it’s about the ride : )
I have a plus bike (a lovely Bombtrack Beyond+) and it has all the bosses you could possibly want, and will take 27.5x3" tyres and 29"x2.25 tyres, but it is pretty expensive at £600 for a frame in the sale, so although I love mine, it doesn't tick all your boxes.
A few comments that may help hopefully.
Mine came rigid as a plus bike, and it was fine, but its a lot more fun with suspension (even the cheap Suntours that I have). You can pretty easily smash through the 2" of air in the tyre and it jars pretty hard when you do. Also steel rigid forks can weigh as much as suspension forks, so weight difference can be pretty minimal. I do still put in the rigid forks every now and again (they are on it now), but its a bit of a faff to swap, and its just not as much fun.
I also swap in and out the 29" and 27.5" wheels, and again, although it has the 29" on at the moment, I much prefer the semi fat ride. Its a bit lower and more forgiving, but they weigh loads more (my 50mm rims are 750g each so the rims alone weigh as much as a posh set of 29" wheels) so can be a bit of a slog. I use the 29" wheels for long XC rides as I just don't feel like I am in control in the woods.
My bombtrack geometry is probably "old fashioned", but it was designed more as an adventure bike and as above you need to decide what your main use will be and then if you can accept the limitations when you come to use it elsewhere. I use it mostly for messing about in the woods at 27.5" and I did the SDW on it last year on 29" wheels to try and save some weight and rolling resistance.
I would say at £700 the Onza is great value though
I can't really help you much there, I'm afraid. My understanding is that purpose designed bikepacking bikes are shorter for all day comfort and steeper so that the steering is quick - so if you load up the bars and forks with bags it still has good steering response even with the weight of the bags slowing it down.
In that sense the Onza would seem a good choice - it has a rep of being a more all-day XC than mountain masher, quickish steering and flickable.
I've thought about building up a payoff frame even though it isn't on trend with LLS. From the reviews it's fun, tossable, quick. The lack of info on reach and top tube length bothers me a bit buying blind. It only comes in 17" and 19" I'd guess your measurements would put you on a 17" - which would be a medium in most peoples books.
I appreciate it isn’t steel but on one are selling some scandal frames for £80 - would far prefer one of those.
My brother had a payoff so I have ridden one several times. Relatively fun but very short reach which combined with the weight made longer climbs (especially those less technical) hard work in my opinion.
The Onza looks a lot more convincing than the Carrera, for sure, and IMO it's a lot of bike for the money!
A thought on the gearing. When I was running an 11-32 cassette in a 1x9 setup an oval chainring made a small but significant difference. It made the easiest gear feel somewhat easier, but more importantly seems to help smooth out the power delivery which helps a lot with traction on tougher climbs. It's a cheap upgrade and might let you run the bike more or less as-is until the drivetrain is worn.
It doesn't look from the images on the website as though the frame has cable stops for a front mech, so a 2x setup may not be possible.
Another thought: the Payoff takes a 27.2 which will limit you in terms of droppers if you ever want to upgrade to one, especially if the frame isn't drilled for stealth routing.
All in all my biggest concern personally would be geometry, albeit perhaps mostly from a trail-riding perspective than all day bike packing epics.
I built my payoff from a frame. With fox 34's it is comfortably slack,and I'm not stretched out riding it. It's a great place for longer rides.
Mine is pretty much the only bike I ride now. I did the 'puffer on it, it has many done black DH runs and hundreds of pump track laps. During this lockdown it is on daily tagalong duty with our 5 yr old behind.
Mine is 11 speed, 30x11-46. I wouldn't underestimate the difference 29" wheels make to the gearing, you will need lower gears than a bike with smaller wheels.
For bikepacking, you might want more bottle & rack bosses?
I put a push fit to Shimano BB adaptor in from new, and touchwood, it's been quiet so far.
The other thing I'd change is the 27.2mm seat tube. It will restrict your choice of dropper. This hasn't really bothered me as I can't use the tagalong with a dropper, so haven't put one on it.
Mine is a 19". It looks quite big as the standover height is high, but you don't notice it riding.
For the money, I think it's a bargain. The other thing I'd consider now would be a marino as the prices have just dropped you can get whatever shape you want.
I think a marin pine mountain 2018, would be more suitable for your needs, 27.5+ rigid. Can run front and rear panniers. I have one and also a onza payoff, which I built up with 140mm yari. The marin I have used for all day treks on road with schwalbe super moto x tyres 2.6 - fully loaded or take racks off and is more than happy on the trails with 2.6 tyres (lower pressure - tubeless), suspension from the tyres. The onza is quite slack and as a everything bike it isnt
If you find your Carerra too short and steep then the Onza is not going to be an improvement - it's a good bike for its time but it's several years out of date and is pretty short and steep by today's standards.
Also, I'd avoid 27.5x2.8 tyres for big mountain riding. They're alright at day to day trail riding but I found that once I got into big mountain stuff there just isn't a 2.8" tyre out there that will stand up to it properly. They puncture all the time, particularly on the back. Strangely, this isn't a problem I suffer with 29x3.0 tyres, especially now they do Maxxis Minion tyres in that size. I'd stick to as big a 29" tyre as you can get in there, maybe 2.5".
on one are selling some scandal frames for £80
Where are those?
Reach wise my 19" Payoff is similar to my 20" Titus Fireline but not quite as long as the Cotic Solaris (version before current so not longshot). Top tube length 590mm for Payoff and Titus, 600 for the solaris. None of which are modern geometry long shot. Would argue that for bike packing or less gnarr trails you wouldn't want longshot type geometry although the Payoff copes with the gnarr well in my opinion. I'm 6ft and the 19inch fits me fine with a 50mm stem its not cramped. Yes 27.2 post is limiting but the choice for 27.2 dropper posts is getting better.
Where are those?
Some sale XL but believe they all went overnight.