[Closed] One for the Red Light Jumpers

I'm interested in those who state they RLJ when they consider it safe and appropriate... why not do the same in your car? By all purposes there must be hundreds of junctions you stop at when there's no traffic and you could simply 'jump across'.

I'm sure you could RLJ in a car safely, and appropriately all day long - so why the mental disparity? or is it simply the fact that you have a number plate to make you identifiable to the 'powers that be' if you get seen/caught?

Al, you forgot to quote the bit where I still disagree with you

The bigger issue to this whole thread is that our infrastructure still doesn't support cycling as a viable and safe form of commuting

Why would you do that to yourself?

You would do that because when the lorry/car and caravan etc comes over the bridge in the other direction you don't want squashing between it and the large vehicle you are currently passing on the outside and there isn't a space to nip into to save your ass.

When you see the big vehicle coming towards you, you pull into a gap in the line of traffic on your side? Just a thought, seems to work for me.

cynic-al - Member

But you think my RLJing is visible to other road users?

[b]The bigger issue to this whole thread is that our infrastructure still doesn't support cycling as a viable and safe form of commuting, and people feeling they have to break laws to make it safe validates that.[/b]

36 and rarely.

don simon - Member
Two sides to every story and I imagine that if Mr Hyer had looked before stepping onto the crossing this might have been avoided

Just want to say, that in a forum full of idiotic comments, this is close to the most idiotic I've seen. Blaming a pedestrian for being hit whilst crossing the road at, presumably, a pedestrian crossing when the lights are green is amazing. The cyclist was the only one in the wrong here and irrespective of your views of RLJ, his actions, and his alone caused the accident. If this was a pedestrian stepping off the curb and walking into the road and the rider didn't try to avoid, they get to share some blame, as it was, none for Mr Hyer.

When you see the big vehicle coming towards you, you pull into a gap in the line of traffic on your side?

Where is queue of traffic that leaves bikes sizes spaces between the all the cars?

I come from a road club background the sort of things people are talking about just would not be acceptable by the old guard in our club, you'd be asked not to come back.

In fact, bring back Cycling Proficency tests.

monkey - I don';t want to give cyclists a bad name.

prezet - you can't see so much from a car, so it's more dangerous, and it looks worse, and is less acceptable to the public.

You are generalising about when us RLJers RLJ. Some are more careful than others. Sorry if this messes up your moral highground!

atlaz - Member

don simon - Member
Two sides to every story and I imagine that if Mr Hyer had looked before stepping onto the crossing this might have been avoided

Just want to say, that in a forum full of idiotic comments, this is close to the most idiotic I've seen. Blaming a pedestrian for being hit whilst crossing the road at, presumably, a pedestrian crossing when the lights are green is amazing. The cyclist was the only one in the wrong here and irrespective of your views of RLJ, his actions, and his alone caused the accident. If this was a pedestrian stepping off the curb and walking into the road and the rider didn't try to avoid, they get to share some blame, as it was, none for Mr Hyer.

How do you know? He might have had headphones on, been drunk, clearly saw the cyclist coming etc etc...

You would do that because when the lorry/car and caravan etc comes over the bridge in the other direction you don't want squashing between it and the large vehicle you are currently passing on the outside and there isn't a space to nip into to save your ass.

The road leading up to the bridge is about 1.5 car widths per carriageway so I generally ride down the outside of the stationary traffic before inserting myself into an appropriate spot ready to cross the bridge.

you can't see so much from a car

I can't see how that's true - unless you're already half way across the junction. I believe cyclists RLJ'ing isn't all that acceptable by the public either. In fact, it's normally the first thing they moan about when cyclists are mentioned.

I'm sure you can find worse comments than that! Don isn't saying that Hymer is to blame at all, just that it is likely that if he'd looked the accident wouldn't happen. I can't imagine anyone would support the idea that you should cross the road without looking, regardless of what the lights say.

How do you know? He might have had headphones on, been drunk, clearly saw the cyclist coming etc etc...

As I understand it, the cyclist was RLJing. Therefore, it is the cyclist's fault.

The idea of queuing in a line of cars while waiting for a light to change is frankly ridiculous, I find it hard to believe that anyone does it and I can't say I've ever seen anyone do it on my commute.

I come from a road club background the sort of things people are talking about just would not be acceptable by the old guard in our club, you'd be asked not to come back.

Understandable. Organising safety for a large group and keeping that group together is a very different prospect to making your own decisions about you own safety and your own progress.

I come from a road club background the sort of things people are talking about just would not be acceptable by the old guard in our club, you'd be asked not to come back.

Club rides aren't really the same as a daily commute are they? The ones I've been on aren't otherwise I probably wouldn't have gone back, asked or otherwise!

6 pages for what clearly is a black and white (or should i say red & green?) thread - really, do we have to keep on with this?

clearly is a black and white thread

If you take the time to examine it more closely, there are shades of grey...

It's not black and white at all.

ransos - Member

How do you know? He might have had headphones on, been drunk, clearly saw the cyclist coming etc etc...

As I understand it, the cyclist was RLJing. Therefore, it is the cyclist's fault.

If only life were so simple.

Did your road club take group rides through jammed up traffic?

The point I'm making is when a club is out, riding safely, calling out when a car is approaching, waiting at lights, and Mr 40+ Cervelo rides down the middle of the road and cuts in front of the car at the front of the queue, that rubs off on all of us.

As cyclists we are representing each other, other people poor calls effect me next time that driver THEY pissed off passes me.

We've got a responsibilty to each other as a collective, do some people not see that

I must admit that I have gone through some red lights in the car, when it has been perfectly safe to do so. It's fine if you want to label me as some sort of menace on the roads, because I know that isn't the case and I'm not really bothered what you nutters think.

The only reason I don't do it more often is that if I do it on my bike and a Policeman sees me he flashes his lights and shakes his head at me, end of story. (Has happened once turning left at a junction where there *should* be a left turn filter light for that phase of the lights as nothing can cross the junction to go that way at that time) If I do the same in the car it's inevitable that I'll be pulled and have the book thrown at me. Those are the practicalities of the situation.

I'm not sure why my motives are under question, I don't see anything wrong with wanting to make good progress and to make the minimum number of stops during a training ride, so long as you don't endanger anyone whilst doing so. Why is it selfish when my actions have no impact on anyone else?

If you take the time to examine it more closely, there are shades of grey...

It's not black and white at all.

just going to be going round in circles on this one - so i'll stop posting on this thread.

+1 paulrockliffe

The public perception argument is complete rubbish. Car drivers dislike cyclists for selfish reasons, they use the RLJ thing to express their dislike because they don't have a rational reason. If they understood that every cyclist is one less car sat in front of them in their queue there wouldn't be the same antagonism.

+2 paulrockliffe !

How do you know? He might have had headphones on, been drunk, clearly saw the cyclist coming etc etc...

So as long as I run people over who are rocking out, drunk or have seen me on pedestrian crossings, it's shared blame? 🙄

I come from a road club background the sort of things people are talking about just would not be acceptable by the old guard in our club, you'd be asked not to come back.

I come from a road club and all road men I know run red lights, go on pavements go down wrong side of the road when there are ques of traffic. What road club are you from the boring-vicars.c.c or the Jobsworth.c.c?

in the eyes of the law, its black and white.

No-one's disputed that.

The main point discussed has been safety.

Why is it selfish when my actions have no impact on anyone else?

Is it not selfish because it perpetuates the myth that all cyclists are RLJing hooligans?

Alex, you come out with Leeds chaingang without mudguards between 1st October and beginning of March and you're made to ride at the back and if you come back again without them, well, no one does it a second time.

They have behavioural code, not written, but you soon find out when you've broken it.

How does it perpetuate anything if the only person that knows about it is me? I suppose some drivers might read this thread and form an opinion, but honestly, I think my swift progress ranks higher than that given the probabilities of that happening.

Mudguards make perfect sense in a chaingang in winter. What's your point exactly?

Oh so that rule is only applicable to chaingangs in Leeds is it? Becauses I seem to remember that happening to me. Yet still the old road men I ride with ride on pavements, wrong side of road, through red lights where applicable. Not all the time, not for instance on the wrong side of the road when there is no traffic and the bike is clearly the slowest road user.

[edit]I would also suggest that your club has something written down about chaigangs and mudguards. Unless of course they're not a very organisd club? [/edit]

atlaz - Member
So as long as I run people over who are rocking out, drunk or have seen me on pedestrian crossings, it's shared blame?

My point is that it is possible that the ped could have had some share of the blame. Unlikely, yes, but possible.

Well Alex, the guys I ride with don't because we are not knobs and we think that people who do all these things are knobs.

So now you are calling me a nob?

[edit] for what its worth I live at the top of a hill that feeds down into part a junction on a main road that is part of the commuter route; for me to sit behind the queue of traffic would mean me hobbling down this hill and it would take me 30 mins to get to the meeting spot for the weekday chaingangs when if I rolled down on the wrong side or on the pavement or I took the journey when not at rush hour would take me less than 2 minutes. Are you really suggesting you would stand behind all the cars and take a tiny step at a time? [/edit]

I suppose some drivers might read this thread and form an opinion

Yes, yes they might...

[img] [/img]

I'm calling people who ride on pavements, jump red lights, go down one way streets the wrong way because its convenient to them, and in turn give cyclists a bad name knobs.

The point I'm making is when a club is out, riding safely, calling out when a car is approaching, waiting at lights, and Mr 40+ Cervelo rides down the middle of the road and cuts in front of the car at the front of the queue, that rubs off on all of us.

paulrockliffe +2

I'm agreeing with Ben on that one.

Tony, to the majority of drivers a cyclist is a cyclist, they don't care if its a £99 pound Argos bike or a £5k superbike.

Ultimately, the behaviour displayed by cyclists in cities, which is where, I would expect, most people see them, is what is used by them to form an opinion.

If enough of us behave badly, we all get a bad name.

edit- the reason I mention club rides, is when we get buzzed by some arsehole in a car its more than likely because they spend Monday to Friday having the wing mirrors clipped by cyclists who show little respect for other road users.

I'm calling people who ride on pavements, jump red lights, go down one way streets the wrong way because its convenient to them, and in turn give cyclists a bad name knobs.

BenHouldsworth - Member

I'm calling people who ride on pavements, jump red lights, go down one way streets the wrong way because its convenient to them, and in turn give cyclists a bad name knobs.

Even the ones that aren't seen doing so? Who's the knob then? ;)Or are they only letting [i]themselves[/i] down?

Ultimately, the behaviour displayed by cyclists in cities, which is where, I would expect, most people see them, is what is used by them to form an opinion.

the reason I mention club rides, is when we get buzzed by some arsehole in a car its more than likely because they spend Monday to Friday having the wing mirrors clipped by cyclists who show little respect for other road users.

Just as possible is that the idiot that nearly ran me into a ditch this morning (only to get to the next junction and wait for me to pass him again) did so because he got caught behind a club ride at the weekend. (Not yours of course)

Not yours of course

Absolutely, he wouldn't be able to keep up

I'm not particularly convinced that cyclists can have or need to have a good name with drivers. It's not a case that some cyclists behave badly, it's that some people are idiots, whether they're on a bike or in a car. It just so happens that more people drive cars so there are more idiots in cars. They dislike you for selfish reasons, not because they once saw someone else jump a red light.

If drivers understood the RLJ thing from a cyclists point of view they wouldn't get annoyed and cyclists wouldn't 'have a bad name'.

It's ridiculous that some cyclists can't form their own opinion on these issues, but take their opinion from a minority of drivers that are simply wrong.

and Mr 40+ Cervelo rides down the middle of the road and cuts in front of the car at the front of the queue, that rubs off on all of us.

Minority groups in action again.

My point is that it is possible that the ped could have had some share of the blame. Unlikely, yes, but possible.

However trying to defend a cyclist who ran a red and hit a pedestrian on a pedestrian crossing is a bit too much of a stretch IMO

D0NK - Member
However trying to defend a cyclist who ran a red and hit a pedestrian on a pedestrian crossing is a bit too much of a stretch IMO

I agree - which is precisely why I'm not doing that.

My point is that it is possible that the ped could have had some share of the blame. Unlikely, yes, but possible.

Not if the cyclist was RLJing.

Wrong, sorry.

Wrong, sorry.

Yep, RLJing is wrong. Knock someone over when you're doing it, and it's your fault. No-one else's.

Yep, RLJing is wrong. Knock someone over when you're doing it, and it's your fault. No-one else's.

What if you just had your bike serviced and left the shop only the bike service centre did a sub par job/didn't do it but signed it off brakes then fail etc. Is it your fault then?

What if you just had your bike serviced and left the shop only the bike service centre did a sub par job/didn't do it but signed it off brakes then fail etc. Is it your fault then?

You'd ride off without checking your brakes? Yes, that would be your fault.

Any other highly unlikely scenarios you'd like to imagine?

ransos, you've clearly not thought about what I've said, if you want to label yourself stupid, up to you.

alex it's your responsibility to have a road worthy bike, but you could claim against the LBS.

So you pick your bike up from 'the bike shop at the top of the hill' check the brakes in the car park. They seem fine so you pay. You pedal off down the hill the lights change and shock horror your brakes don't work because whilst the brakes seem fine in the car park they weren't up to the task as they hadn't been correctly adjusted/serviced. Crossing the road is a nun with a pram full of orphans and you kill them all out right. Then Ransos pops his head from behind the hedge next to the crossing and wags his finger whilst tutting loudly.

Well you've still got an unroadworthy bike, so yes you're at fault I guess

ransos, you've clearly not thought about what I've said, if you want to label yourself stupid, up to you.

I've thought about what you said. You're wrong. You could try to be more wrong, but you would be unsuccessful.

I don't feel the need to label you when you so helpfully plastered your wrongness all over the internet.

I guess

That sounds a bit like a shade of grey to me.

RLJ due to failed brakes could perhaps be deemed as an accident since you weren't intentionally RLJing, but I suspect you'd have to be able to prove that and should still accept some responsibility for riding an un-roadworthy bike.

So you pick your bike up from 'the bike shop at the top of the hill' check the brakes in the car park. blah

Yes, it's your fault. You're going to have to try harder!

RLJ due to failed brakes could perhaps be deemed as an accident since you weren't intentionally RLJing, but I suspect you'd have to be able to prove that and should still accept some responsibility for riding an un-roadworthy bike.

Sounds like another shade of the aforementioned grey.

So you pick your bike up from 'the bike shop at the top of the hill' check the brakes in the car park. blah
Yes, it's your fault. You're going to have to try harder!

What is your profession? Lawyer?

sorry for making a typo

What is your profession? Layer?

Bricks?

What is your profession? Layer?

Lady of 'ill repute'? 😉

see edited post

[edit]I get brick 'layer' but not lady of ill repute 'layer'; that is a hobby not a profession [/edit]

surely that depends if you charge or not? I believe red lights may be involved!

It is your responsibility, and yours alone, for making sure that your bike is roadworthy. It may be possible to dream up some highly improbable circumstances in which you couldn't avoid an accident, but that's just [i]reductio ad absurdum[/i].

the lady of ill repute is the profession the person laying the lady of ill repute is the one with the hobby.

brick layer is a profession

get it?

It is your responsibility, and yours alone, for making sure that your bike is roadworthy. It may be possible to dream up some highly improbable circumstances in which you couldn't avoid an accident, but that's just reductio ad absurdum.

citation needed

As long as red lights and jumping are involved

citation needed

Is "reductio ad absurdum" the new Edinburgh Defence?

Did someone say Emily Batty?

For what?

It is your responsibility, and yours alone, for making sure that your bike is roadworthy.

That right there; unless you are now making up your own laws that no one else is privy to?