[Closed] One for the Red Light Jumpers

LONG LIVE SANCTIMONEY!

Excellent.

Another thread full of self-righteous cyclists defending their choice of deliberately breaking the law and jumping red lights.

Then in another breath the same riders probably bemoan motorists not treating cyclists with respect etc etc

🙄

Another thread full of self-righteous cyclists defending their choice of deliberately breaking the law and jumping red lights.

edit and most motorists treat us with disrespect coz we are different, not the norm, freaky, basically they hate us coz we're in a different gang, basic human behaviour. It's very little to do with how we behave, they just bring up RLJing as a rentaquote, loads of motorists RLJ too.

It's very little to do with how we behave

If only that were true! Was the irony intentional?

Looks like another "Me, myself, I" debate....

Who says the pedestrian didn't look ? He may have done so but not seen the cyclist.

The judge didn't award larger damages as a civil action will follow. I don't understand how the cyclist has stayed out of prison.

I hope the cyclist get's taken to the cleaners financially.

If only that were true! Was the irony intentional?

Looks like another "Me, myself, I" debate....

Surely the whole point of traffic lights is that it presents a uniform language or system that all understand and are expected to abide by.
Red light = stop
green light = go

It presents an objective control - everyone abides by the rules/language, minimal chance of things going wrong/people getting hurt.

If you RLJ in a car/bike/lorry/by foot/spaceship, you're making a subjective judgement call and are acting without informing other road users of your intentions = you're not following the common rules/system/language.
If no-one else is expecting what you're going to do, accidents are more likely to happen.

Why is the cyclist always the bad guy in this? Pedestrians are constantly crossing roads when their light is green (or at places where there is no light at all) and no-one ever says they shouldn't be doing it.

red lights are there because there is deemed to be a significant risk at that junction

No they aren't. It's just to give everyone a turn and keep the traffic flowing. Risk has bugger all to do with it. Look at a countryside crossroads with high hedges etc. It's tricky to see what's coming, but there are no lights as there is little traffic flow to control.

---------------------------------

Anyway. I jump red lights all the time. I really, honestly don't give the slightest toss what anyone thinks of it.
Why do I do it?
Mostly, just becasue I can, and I know I can get away with it. (Lets be honest here....!)
Otherwise, becasue I get from A to B faster. Simple

.

Yes Donk - seriously - and agree with much of fuzzhead's comments above. In the "me, myself, I" society that we live in, selective recognition/acceptance/observance of standard rules of behaviour and order is increasingly adopted with obvious consequences.

Cyclists are merely one example of this trend.

x-post edit...... QED above - a perfect example.

I really, honestly don't give the slightest toss what anyone thinks of it. Why do I do it? Mostly, just becasue I can, and I know I can get away with it.

Not being judgmental here (hopefully), merely making an objective observation that realise may be misinterpreted!!

OK so presumably you ride like a paragon of the highway codes virtue, do you find this makes motorists treat you with respect? Or do you still get tossers cutting you up and otherwise endangering you? I've tried periods of following the rules to the letter and others just doing what I please but consider safe, no discernable difference from drivers attitudes IMO (yes I know, not statistically significant). Tend towards the former nowadays anyway just cause I'm becoming an old fuddy duddy.

How about a bit of parity, unless the majority of drivers negotiate the road network with their eyes shut, even the good ones will accept that lots of other drivers speed, RLJ, use the phone and otherwise dick around on the roads. How come there isn't a load of hate for drivers? No, drivers who speed/rlj/whatever are nasty [i]individuals[/i] but all cyclists are arseholes because [i]some[/i] cycle dangerously. we're a minority and we get all the usual stick minorities have historically got.

How come there isn't a load of hate for drivers?

Because the vast majority of people are drivers and the vast majority of those drivers occasionally speed, use their phone, jump red lights etc.

I've got to admit I RLJ pretty much every day on my commute, I treat them more like 4 way stop signs. Yes it's illegal but I was criminalised at university when I once had a drag on a spliff, that's when it all started to go wrong...

I find this sort of nonsense very depressing - illustrates how blinkered and selfish many folks are.

Safe or unsafe is irrelevant - at some point this becomes a subjective judgment, and that is always dangerous territory.

Legal / illegal - pretty clear cut, and yes, most of us will break traffic laws. RLJing by motor vehicles is thankfully a lot rarer than for cycles.

For me, when riding in traffic it comes down to being visible [u]and predictable[/u] - So riding in an assertive position in the lane, and acting predictably - i.e. according to the normal rules and conventions of the road.

Choosing to step outside of these conventions, IMO, make you more vulnerable.

Donk, I tend to find if we treat each other with respect, then it benefits everyone. So as a cyclist, I will move in from two abreast if the road is narrow, but will stay two abreast if that is the safer option. I will wave thank you to a driver who waits for the correct opportunity to pass me rather than cutting me up. I have given up gesticulating at those who do cut me up (after one rage incident) as it does no-one any favours.

Simple common sense and manners - might as well control what [u]we can[/u] contol ie ourselves!! The argument that we should break the law/behave badly merely because others do doesn't real hold much water for me. Sorry!

Legal / illegal - pretty clear cut, and yes, most of us will break traffic laws. RLJing by motor vehicles is thankfully a lot rarer than for cycles.

it comes down to being visible and predictable

Every car driver i know know EVERY cyclist jumps red lights all the time...

Why is the cyclist always the bad guy in this? Pedestrians are constantly crossing roads when their light is green (or at places where there is no light at all) and no-one ever says they shouldn't be doing it.

Because we do not have a jay walking law in the UK. Except for those locations where there is a "no pedestrians" sign, there is every legal right to cross the road.

The law doesn't make it safe to do so - that is the pedestrian's responsibility. The law merely doesn't prohibit crossing the road at non-approved crossings...

... unlike red lights, where the law specifically removes the driver / rider's responsibility for checking that the way ahead is safe - by mandating that all traffic stops

I will wave thank you to a driver who waits for the correct opportunity to pass me rather than cutting me up

I have given up gesticulating at those who do cut me up

The argument that we should break the law/behave badly merely because others do doesn't real hold much water for me

would you accept I have a point with our minority status?

again. Seriously?

Come on, be objective on this.

I see cars, busses and trucks RLJ (rarely m/cycles, funnily enough - perhaps there's an attitude there to be learnt?)

BUT - how frequently?

Once per day, perhaps a few times on a bad day. What percentage of the overall traffic flow does that represent?

Compare those observations with cyclists - once every red light? 50% of cyclists at every red light?

REALLY, there is no comparison between cyclists and other traffic oon this - either in absolute numbers or as a proportion of the overall traffic flow for that vehicle type.

It's very little to do with how we behave

I agree with this.

Every cyclist could be the most virtuous, law abiding, respectful road user to have ever lived, and we'd still annoy drivers for not paying 'road tax', for not having insurance, for being slow and holding up traffic, for wobbling, for not having MOTs, for not wearing helmets and costing the NHS a fortune or whatever other imaginary problem so far dreamt up.

Drivers have been made to feel like pariahs for years. We (and I say we for most of us here ride and drive) are attacked from all sides and taxed half to death for the privilege. We're constantly reminded that the future for our beloved multiple thousand pound purchases looks grim. The road network which supposedly grants us our freedom, our ability to work and live where we please, the system that supports our very way of life and the one on which so many of us have come to feel utterly reliant has become an overcrowded, over regulated, frustrating and inhuman place to operate.

All the while we're fed glossy images of the car as an item embodying individualism, expression, the open road, adventure, spontaneity and freedom. These enticing images glare down at us from vast billboards as we sit in traffic jams of our own making, and they make us feel cheated. Where is our open road? Where is our freedom? What happened to this once liberating and exciting machine that now feels such a burden?

And at that point a cyclist filters by. Free from the shackles of tax, of ANPR and speed cameras, rip off insurance companies and endlessly rising oil prices and the wars they create, and representing the green, the virtuous, the vegetarian, hippy, those self righteous little shits push in the queue while having the temerity to judge us for driving to work to earn an honest living and pay our taxes like upstanding, law abiding citizens.

Viewed from behind the dashboard, a bicycle simultaneously embodies certain things drivers don't want to deal with: Their own sense of guilt and their own feeling of being conned, of being trapped.

So drivers are pissed off anyway. What's worse, we're pissed off in enclosed steel boxes that positively encourage detachment, a lack of human co-operation, a lack of empathy and a sense that we're in control, masters of our domain when we're really so very, very not.

Virtuous cycling isn't going to change that. We drivers will still hate us cyclists.

Glad we agree on most things then! But minority status....hmmm.....I actually think that we live in a society where the fear of the tyranny of the majority is so entrenched that in many aspects of life we have exactly the opposite. Again, cycling mirrors that wider trend well IMO.

For me, when riding in traffic it comes down to being visible and predictable

For me it's about being assertive and random

If people havent got a fekking clue what I might do next, they keep out of the way! 🙂

It's like what I keep telling Mrs PP when we're on the motorbike or car "Keep it fast and loose, look dangerous, and people will keep WELL AWAY!

🙂

RKK I've read more on this but this is the first I could find

The Transport Research Laboratory reported in a [url= http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/Behaviour-at-cycle-advanced-stop-lines.pdf ]2007 London-based study[/url] that 17% of cyclists at the studied sites violated red lights. However, 39% of the time, vehicles encroached into advance stop boxes, which is also a traffic-light violation, and at some sites, the number of motor vehicles violating a red light and continuing all the way through the junction (as opposed to just creeping over the stop line) exceeded the number of cyclists guilty of the same behaviour

pretty sure london has a higher % of cyclists than most of the UK

<edit>so RLJ cars aren't rare compared to cyclists.

Also and I know some will give me stick for this but I don't think you can ignore the potential consequences of a car running a redlight and a bike*, quite a big disparity there. So to paraphrase someone on here, get all the cars to stop at redlights then work on getting the cyclists to aswell.

*still not said it's right but with cars killing 000's of people pa and cyclists killing <10, where do you think they should spend the roadsafe budget?

that 2007 report is well out of date already.
the volume and behaviour of cyclists in London is very different to what it was 5 years ago.

I would estimate that on my commute that between a third and a half of all cyclists run red lights.

I do most of the same commute as you, bakes. I was going to post saying that I'd put it at more like 10-15% but it depends on the lights. Some are safer than others (yes folks, it's true).

For example, everyone turning left into the cycle lane [url= http://goo.gl/maps/9l07 ]here[/url] (after the lights but before the road junction, no ped. crossing) jumps red, but it could be for some that that's the only red they run in an 8 mile commute. Certainly there are way fewer jumpers at the Old Street Roundabout and the junction at Bank.

We're back to the fact that the "x% of cyclists run red lights" stat isn't particularly useful on its own.

I'd probably say that 5% of cyclists run 90% of the reds they encounter, 70% run 10% of the red lights they encounter. Or something. but stats like that would paint a more useful picture.

would something [url= http://www.directline.com/about_us/news_22082011.htm ]a bit more recent[/url] suit sir? doesn't mention cyclists but does highlight that RLJing is fairly prevalent in motorists.

I used to be dead against RLJing.
Over the years I've tended to take a more pragmatic approach motivated largely by my own selfishness

Some examples: Empty pedestrian crossing - where the pedestrian has already crossed. Why would I stop? It just seems completely daft to abdicate my decision making process to a box at the side of the road when I can perfectly judge that its okay to carry on through. Would I stop in the car? Yes probably but then the consequences of a misjudgment or indeed getting caught are higher and the car has a great big engine for getting me back up to speed quickly.

While driving do i realy care if a cyclist jumps the lights to turn left - no in fact motivated by my own selfisness I would rather they did it everytime as then I don't need to worry about the cyclist in front of me when the lights change.

It is perfectly possible after all to behave like a dickhead while doing nothing illegal. In life its probably more important to follow the universal rule of not being one than necessarily adhere with every single law.

I regularly jump red lights when I consider it safe to do so. I slow down to a stately 5-10mph to do so, or am pulling away having given way to a pedestrian crossing. I know that by the letter of the law this is wrong, but will continue to do so. There are certain junctions that I encounter where I wouldn't dream of it.

I don't think twice about jumping on my bike after several pints, which is still an offence (if i'm staggering whilst walking I tend to walk with the bike, using it for support!). It wouldn't surprise me if I break the speed limit on my bike pretty regularly too (easily done in 20 zones). I walk my bike on footpaths/pavements, sometimes i'll ride (when connecting one piece of badly designed cycle path to another). I've also been known to ride at night without a front light (not regularly, but its happened, always in well lit areas and wearing hi-viz). There is even one small roundabout that the right turn off is very tight and off camber, if its clear I'll occasionally go the wrong way around it.

I know all of this is 'wrong' and against the letter of the law, but based on my own risk assessment of the situations consider it safe to do, if I cause an accident, or some blame can be attributed to my actions then I will accept responsibility. Any of the anti RLJ's done any of the above? I don't see how the above are any different.

There are plenty of circumstances where ignoring the red light is the safest thing to do. I used to cross a pedestrian crossing fairly regularly, it was little used so inevitably someone would arrive, press the button, then cross before the lights changed. It was a quiet area, with good visibility and nowhere for people to hide. If there was no one at the crossing it is perfectly safe to ignore the red light.

However, if you stop at the red light with a car behind, there's a pinch point ahead where there is an island in the middle of the road. It's at the right distance that if you set off from the lights at the same time as a car from stationary there's a good chance their overtaking coincides with the pinch point and you are suddenly subjected to a much more dangerous situation than simply ignoring the red light and getting to the pinch first.

After being nearly knocked off twice I quickly realised that if I was to survive that the red was going to have to be optional. I suppose the sanctimonious on here would just hope they survived the inevitable?

There's some absolute nonsense on here, in a majority of situations a cyclist is perfectly capable of judging the safety implications of crossing a red light far better than whichever suit somewhere at the Council decided to apply a blanket on/off rule to all situations.

There are obvious issues with idiots forcing their way through traffic or pedestrians, but that it isn't safe to RLJ all the time at every junction or crossing does in no way mean that it is never safe to RLJ at any junction at any time.

Be interesting to know how the sanctimonious idiots on here approach crossing a major city at 3am when the lights only change when they detect a car? Do they sit and wait for the next car to arrive hours later, or is it more likely that they simply haven't had a broad enough riding experience to appreciate that all situations are different and should be judged appropriately on their merits?

Seriously. How hard is it to understand:

Red - stop and wait
Green - go

If you can't get your head around that you really shouldn't be on the road (or pavement, as you probably think that's ok too).

I do most of the same commute as you, bakes. I was going to post saying that I'd put it at more like 10-15% but it depends on the lights

how do you know my commute?
you're right, it does depend on the lights and how safe it is to jump them. maybe it's 30-50% at those that are safest to cross.
that left turn into the cycle lane on New North Rd is a prime example of one which I think is fine which is why everyone goes through it (I go straight on) - what they should do is extend the cycle lane so it meets up with the road before the lights.

Prezet, the ironic thing is that your moronic adherence to a blanket determinism decided by a computer marks you out as someone that is less likely to be suitable for riding a bike in public than anyone that is prepared to use their own judgement in assessing risk. But you won't see that will you.

OK so presumably you ride like a paragon of the highway codes virtue, do you find this makes motorists treat you with respect? Or do you still get tossers cutting you up and otherwise endangering you?

I find that riding in accordance with the law makes no difference to how motorists treat me compared to other cyclists. I don't see that as a reason to behave as badly as they do.

Having read through the examples of when RLJing is supposedly safer, all of them are examples of poor cyclecraft.

I also find it ironic that this insistance on blanket adherence to traffic laws exist among a community who gained access rights largely through an illegal trespass

Prezet, the ironic thing is that your moronic adherence to a blanket determinism decided by a computer marks you out as someone that is less likely to be suitable for riding a bike in public than anyone that is prepared to use their own judgement in assessing risk. But you won't see that will you.

Probably not, as I tend to stick to what the law dictates. By your own standing you pick and chose what you feel applies to you at the time.

Examples of poor cyclecraft?

I suppose you could say that if your definition of good cyclecraft was to constantly defer to ever risk and assume everyone was going to drive like a knob. A valid point perhaps, but I tihnk you're taking it to an extreme where you'd never go out on a bike on the road.

Perhaps you could explain how you would apply cyclecraft to my example to avoid cars diving for a late over-take at a pinch point? Would you wait at the red light until all the cars had cleared you just in case?

Yeah, I do and no kittens have died. There's a huge difference between ignoring red lights and making an informed decision. No doubt you'll have this image of me hurtling through every red light going, but that's nowhere near the truth. Some red lights I'll run all the time, most I'll never run, some I'll run occasionally, depends on the junction and the traffic.

Perhaps you could explain how you would apply cyclecraft to my example to avoid cars diving for a late over-take at a pinch point? Would you wait at the red light until all the cars had cleared you just in case?

The problem is solved by not riding in the gutter.

Next!

for those who didn't read the [url= http://cycalogical.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/on-red-light-jumpers.html ]link[/url] I included earlier, which offers some plausible reasons for RLJing (author still notes he doesn't RLJ himself) here's part of it

Traffic engineers have spent the last 50 years designing most of the hazards out of roads [b]for motorists[/b]. Most road junctions do little to make cyclists safe, and many are downright dangerous. It therefore follows that most junctions, including light-controlled ones, are hazardous to cyclists, and that gives rise to a very important moral distinction. Let me first propose three moral principles which shouldn't prove controversial. First, it is important to respect the law. Second, it is important to respect the safety of others. Third, you have a duty to ensure your own safety. For a motorist at a junction, there's no dilemma: if you break the law by running a red light, you endanger others and quite possibly yourself. For a cyclist at a junction, if you respect the letter of the law at a UK road junction, you can quite easily find yourself in a situation that endangers you, because of the poor safety characteristics that are engineered into the junction. Furthermore, too often you encounter drivers that do not respect the law. They drive too close to cyclists, encroach into advance stop boxes, overtake dangerously, left-hook you, and so on. So it makes sense to get the heck out of this concentrated collection of hazards toot sweet, as the French have it. It's a sad fact that most collisions happen at junctions. It's possible to use the moral defence of self-preservation, provided of course your actions pose no significant danger to others: at some junctions the risks of being mixed up among a pack of accelerating motors are higher than the risks involved in carefully crossing the junction against the lights.

+1 Prezet.

There are belligerent folk on here who obviously know best; they can predict the actions of every other road user, they can tell when someone whose just received bad news/is rushing to an appointment/is a tool etc is on the road and might do something rash- they are immune to the chaos theory that governs a road network serving nearly 70 million.

In fact they are the One, they are Neo, they see and control the Matrix!

I'm up and down the motorways and driving through cities everyday, I see accidents on a regular basis and most of the ones I see are at traffic lights- go figure.

Can we stop posting this irrelevant b*ll*cks about lights that don't change because a bicycle doesn't activate the pressure sensors? That isn't an offence because the lights are then not operating in compliance with the approriate regulations.

It's exactly the same as drivers who don't stop when the lights are broken. We're not talking about that. We're talking about "jumping" red lights. Which is clearly something different.

how do you know my commute?

Strava: I saw your name near mine on a few segments, recognised you from here, clicked on your name and saw your commute route. Don't know if that's stalking or not? I guess that's for you to decide! I've not been to your house, btw.

For a cyclist at a junction, if you respect the letter of the law at a UK road junction, you can quite easily find yourself in a situation that endangers you

Usually through poor road positioning. I would agree that this isn't helped by the presence of narrow cycle lanes that encourage riding in the gutter. If a cyclist isn't prepared to improve his safety through using primary, then there is an easy option - dismount and use the pedestrian crossing.

I wonder if shite like this and Ben's subsequent post (he's still not answered the simple points put previousloy IIRC):

Seriously. How hard is it to understand:

Red - stop and wait
Green - go

If you can't get your head around that you really shouldn't be on the road (or pavement, as you probably think that's ok too).

...results from folk thinking that anyone who jumps red lights is like the typical London RLJer. It seems that plenty of people are capabvle of applying their brains and RLJing rarely and only when safe to do so. But some don't appear to have the brain-power to understand this.

they can predict the actions of every other road user

Don't know about that, but I can certainly predict that zero other road users will perform zero actions.

Al, what previous points do you want me to answer?

Edit- In fact forget it, I think what you say is wrong and what I say is right

Ah yes, the primary position. See BenHouldsworth's post about drivers not paying attention etc for reasons why it can be safer to ride where the cars aren't. Doesn't offer anything that just getting out of everyone's way doesn't, yet introduces the possibility of being mown down by Mrs Threescreamingkidsandonthephone. No thanks.

I despair at a lot of the narrow-minded someone else knows best nonsense on here. I don't mind you doing whatever you want, but don't expect anyone with a brain of their own to take any notice of your rubbish.

personaly i think that any RLJing is unsafe and anyone doing it is a complete cock and is making the image all cyclists bad in the eyes of all other road users - if you'd stop in your car you should stop on your bike.

they deserve whats coming to them (usually it has 4 wheels, weighs approx a ton and is doing 30mph).

Strava: I saw your name near mine on a few segments

cursed Strava. I've not used it for a couple of months.
:wanders off to counter-stalk nedrapier:

Ben:

cynic-al - Member

You are on your bike at a crossroads in the middle of the night. You can see clearly that there's no traffic around but you face a RL.

You are saying it's de facto unsafe to RLJ?

If the sensors don't recognise you, it's also unjustified?

personaly i think that any RLJing is unsafe and anyone doing it is a complete cock

Wow. If you really think that any RLJ is unsafe, you either don't cycle on the road, or you shouldn't.

If I wrote down a list of all the circumstances I regularly encounter on a 5 mile each way commute and order them in terms of risk to me, and risk to others from me, there would be dozens, hundreds if we're being really detailed, above jumping the safest red lights in the safest cirmcumstances on the route.

cynic-al - Member

You are on your bike at a crossroads in the middle of the night. You can see clearly that there's no traffic around but you face a RL.

You are saying it's de facto unsafe to RLJ?

If the sensors don't recognise you, it's also unjustified?

Wow. If you really think that any RLJ is unsafe, you either don't cycle, or you shouldn't

Exactly. These blinkered chaps on here have clearly little experience of the real world and have just seen a few London cycle-courier videos on here. That isn't the real world and it isn't a reflection on how the majority of people RLJ. At all.

And it's complete rubbish to say that most people that RLJ are going to end up under a truck. Do you honestly think that if that were true the sorts of people that are on here putting together coherent arguments that RLJing isn't the end of the world would be doing it? Or even still here to put the argument forward.

ive seen too many accidents where cyclist have RLJ unsafely and been hit, hit others, or had 'near misses'.

FTFY. Childish, sorry, but was missing a word.

I know this is not the STW way but FFS...

If you want to RLJ, then do so.
If you don't, then don't.

Whatever you do, if you **** up and cause an accident, bear the responsibility and don't whine like a toddler.

If you really think that any RLJ is unsafe, you either don't cycle on the road, or you shouldn't.

I'm 39, been cycling on roads since I was 5 years old, commuted through London and Leeds, and never had an incident with a car.

I personally think I'm onto something, you may not, but as an accident free cyclist and driver, with a family and kids, I'm happy to continue in my accident free, no claims, no speeding ticket ways.

I despair at a lot of the narrow-minded someone else knows best nonsense on here. I don't mind you doing whatever you want, but don't expect anyone with a brain of their own to take any notice of your rubbish.

Despair all you like. The simple fact is you're choosing to break a law of using the road and you're only on here trying to defend your own actions and judgements citing poor cycle craft and road positioning as a reason for doing so.

Still ignoring my point then Ben?

OK BH, well done.

Personally, I find it easy to understand why people take a stance against RLJing for most of the reasons stated, and prefer to always abide by the signals. I'm impressed if they never break the law, that takes some doing. I say that in all seriousness.

I do find it difficult to understand how experienced road users who are making constant and countless decisions every journey, based on judgement and risk, can say that all/any RLJ is unsafe*, without realising that there are countless other things they deal with without batting an eye lid that are far more dangerous.

And if they do realise that, I don't see how they can't understand what a meaningless statement it is. "Any form of cycling is unsafe."

.

*let's use the deserted road, ped. crossing on red, ped. already crossed example. No shops or sideroads!

and while I'm on:

I'm 33, been cycling on roads since I was 5 years old, I commute through London, and never had an incident with a car. Occasionally, I decide I can jump reds on my push bike with no more risk to myself or anyone else than if I stopped and waited.

I personally think I'm onto something, you may not, but as an accident free cyclist, driver and motorcyclist, with a family, I'm happy to continue in my accident free, no claims, no speeding ticket ways.

I don't RLJ, and in fact regulary encounter the hypothetical example of the deserted pedestrian crossing. Near the top of a long hill. Near the end of my commute home.

If I don't RLJ, what's the worst that will happen? Well, I, errr, stop, and um, then, I, well... start again. This is terrible because??...

let's use the deserted road, ped. crossing on red, ped. already crossed example. No shops or sideroads!

Fair enough. I shall add in the wannabe superhero on rocket powered roller skates* 😉

* Could happen!

*let's use the deserted road, ped. crossing on red, ped. already crossed example. No shops or sideroads!

OK, quick poll (genuinely interested in the result)

How old are you & do you RLJ?

Me 42 & no

If I don't RLJ, what's the worst that will happen? Well, I, errr, stop, and um, then, I, well... start again. This is terrible because??...

Nothing's terrible, within reason! That's the point!

Smashing into people while RLJing at 26mph and giving them brain damage is terrible. Ending up under a bus with your head stoved in leaving a family behind becuase you did something stupid is terrible.

A great deal of other things aren't terrible.

OK, quick poll (genuinely interested in the result)

How old are you & do you RLJ?

34, no

Wrong side of 45 and NO.

Al, if you want me so say your example is one where there is a low risk of an accident then I'll say it.

Does that mean I think going through the red light is correct, no it doesn't.

accidents happen when people get complacent, regular commutes where they know every turn and everyday they take less and less notice.

Then one day, or one night, at that quite junction you jumped a thousand times circumstances change.

I simply choose not to take that risk; as has already been said, Red means stop, and for me it means stop because I know for others it doesn't.

Carrying doing what you're doing, run with it, but when you wonder why less and less drivers tolerate cyclists its because there are enough bad ones out there to spoil it for all of us.

Easiest way to be safe on a bike and I say this from my own experience if to be like a car, join the back of the queue, sit in line, wait with everyone else, don't cut down between cars and the kerb, don't drag race at lights-they have engines and are faster than you.

I simply do not get what you're up to.

join the back of the queue, sit in line, wait with everyone else, don't cut down between cars and the kerb,

blimey! I would NEVER drive to work, because it would take about an hour and a half! It takes me 20, 25 minutes on a bike*. And by your method, I'd be even slower than the car, because on the few stretches the car can reach 25, 30mph, I'd be going at 20. Sorry, your method is bonkers and unworkable on my commute.

*And, for reference, there are one or 2 out of 26 that I occasionally jump - if it's late and deserted. I generally prefer not to, and I hate watching cyclists cutting through pedestrians crossing on a green man.

Red means stop, and for me it means stop because I know for others it doesn't.

So you don't go on green either?

OK, quick poll (genuinely interested in the result)

How old are you & do you RLJ?

38, No (including deserted ped. crossings)

nedrapier - Member

So you don't go on green either?

I'm 39, been cycling on roads since I was 5 years old, commuted through London and Leeds, and never had an incident with a car.

I personally think I'm onto something, you may not, but as an accident free cyclist and driver, with a family and kids, I'm happy to continue in my accident free, no claims, no speeding ticket ways.

I think as with anyone who rides regularly on the road the fact that neither of us has had an accident is down to luck and judgement. Luck that no driver has been idiotic enough in his/her actions to run either of us over, and judgement that a) you decide not to RLJ, b) I judge each situation on its own merits and act accordingly, and c) that most drivers judge situations well enough not to endanger either of us.

So who's right? Legally speaking you of course, but as has been said many times we all break the law in some way.

OK, quick poll (genuinely interested in the result)
How old are you & do you RLJ?

37, with a mental age of 12 and yes, YES! every red light is an opportunity speed on through, every pavement another highway to adopt for my own use, every pedestrian just another obstacle in my way... highway code, road laws? bah.

Otherwise, 34 and no.

Lots of cycle lanes in Leeds Ned, the only place they end is at lights, which change, so I join the queue and set off again.

If a cycle lane isn't there you can't create one out of two yellow lines and you only end up annoying some drivers who then in future pull closer to the kerb and make the manoeuvre even more dangerous.

The bigger issue to this whole thread is that our infrastructure still doesn't support cycling as a viable and safe form of commuting, and people feeling they have to break laws to make it safe validates that.

BenHouldsworth - Member

Al, if you want me so say your example is one where there is a low risk of an accident then I'll say it.

Carrying doing what you're doing, run with it, but when you wonder why less and less drivers tolerate cyclists its because there are enough bad ones out there to spoil it for all of us.

At last!

But you think my RLJing is visible to other road users?

Oh dear...you've made an ass of u and me!

join the back of the queue, sit in line, wait with everyone else, don't cut down between cars and the kerb

On this particular morning (dry, clear, good road conditions) I saw a bloke on a bike waiting behind probably 50 cars. It must have taken him 20 minutes to get across the bridge where it took me two without putting either myself or anyone else at risk. Why would you do that to yourself?

I despair at a lot of the narrow-minded someone else knows best nonsense on here.

I despair at the convoluted nonsense people dream up to justify their behaviour, which is in fact entirely about selfishness. There's no reason to RLJ other than to shave a small amount of time off your journey. Just have the balls to admit it.

(34, daily city-centre commute for 10 years, no RLJing).