[Closed] One for the Red Light Jumpers

Not defending RLJ - I do sometimes in my car and on the bike
but RLJing a pedestrian crossing at 26 mph is madness.

Not all RLJing is the same. Unless you are thick?

Two sides to every story and I imagine that [i]if[/i] Mr Hyer had looked before stepping onto the crossing this might have been avoided. That said [i][b]if[/i][/b] all RLJers are going to cause accidents like this, they should be banned from riding, anywhere! (I've seen the conditional used successfully in another argument somewhere so it's OK).

right so you imagine , if and might ...so you are speculating widely then

Thanks, very helpful

Wonder how many times this happens with cars running red lights every year.

right so you imagine , if and might ...so you are speculating widely then

wonders if two wrongs make a right

DS on here , the bastion of well considered and moderate thought NEVER retract that lie.

piedi di formaggio - Member

Personally I don't see any reason that a red light should be jumped and this sort of thing is bound to occur.

No, it isn't. This is like saying "A driver exceeded the speed limit past a school and hit a child, therefore, all drivers who speed are potential child killers". RLJing safely is safe, RLJing dangerously is dangerous. OR, riding safely is safe, riding dangerously is dangerously.

You're not supposed to do reductio ad absurdum in your opening post, bad form.

I think you should look up non sequitor

Are you really claiming that if people ignore red lights it is not inevitable that this sort of thing [ which i assume means accidents] will happen?
In what sense is this an absurd statement ?

Junkyard - Member

Are you really claiming that if people ignore red lights it is not inevitable that this sort of thing [ which i assume means accidents] will happen?

No. [i]Ignoring [/i]red lights is a terrible idea. But taking note of a red light among various other conditions and acting accordingly is not the same as ignoring it. Safe RLJing does not make accidents inevitable- beyond the point at which riding bikes makes accidents inevitable, anyway.

That is just the sort of anti-cyclist article I'd expect in the UK press. Obviously the hundreds and hundreds of people killed, maimed and injured by cars every year is an order of magnitude higher than those caused by cyclists, but it's not new-worthy because we accept them as unfortunate "accidents".

Really, it's tragic, but perhaps we should concentrate our efforts as a society on the biggest road killers: motorists.

RLJing safely is safe

COMPLETE BOLLOCKS!

Either its right or it's wrong; Red means stop, it doesn't matter if the road is clear or if there is no traffic, it means stop.

As soon as you create grey areas where its permissible, people start creating excuses as to why accident happened.

As a 30000+ mile a year driver and a life long cyclist I never do it.

Call me puritanical but if cyclists want the slightest bit of respect on the roads, obeying the law and respecting everybody on the street is the first thing you start doing 👿

BenHouldsworth - Member

COMPLETE BOLLOCKS!

Either its right or it's wrong; Red means stop, it doesn't matter if the road is clear or if there is no traffic, it means stop.

I made no comment on [i]right[/i] or [i]wrong[/i], only on safety.

RLJing is not inherently unsafe- do it safely, and it is safe. Do it unsafely and it is unsafe. You will never in a million miles hit a pedestrian that isn't there.

Right and wrong (or legal vs illegal) aren't the same as safe and not safe.

>rosenblatt
>top city

wait, this isn't rollonfriday

its a tautology to tell me something safe is safe but what you need to do is explain to me why a minority of road users ignoring the agreed rules will not lead to more accidents....is it because everyone who drives outsides the rules is a great driver and doing so safely?
i will never in a million miles hit a pedestrian who is not there doing 90 whilst pissed on the wrong side of the road but that does not make it safe.

Obviously you can be safe or unsafe whilst rljing [ or for that matter drink driving or doing 90 on the wrong side of the road] but this does not mean that it is ever safer than stopping or adhering to the rules everyone expects you to do.

Cyclist Andrej Schipka, a German IT manager, was found guilty of careless cycling and fined £850 plus £930 costs and a £15 surcharge for the crash on July 5 last year

Pretty sure this is still less than the truck driver who crushed a cyclist recently.

why a minority of road users ignoring the agreed rules will not lead to more accidents....

Ahem. You do know that the vast majority of road users ignore the agreed rules every time they use their vehicle? Show me a motorist and I'll show you someone who breaks the law.

If the law is to stop when the light is red and a choice is made to ignore that law then it is about right or wrong.

Do you choose to obey a law designed to protect others or do you choose to ignore it based on your own risk assessment.

You will never in a million miles hit a pedestrian that isn't there.

Unfortunately some peoples assessment of what is safe is significantly different to others, hence it is better we all obey than make the assumption we know best.

I know there are plenty of situations where a red light could be crossed, I've also nearly been killed by a random pallet falling from a lorry; sometimes planets align and s**t happens.

Plenty of people will say "I've driven that route a thousand times and a children never ran out in front of me", but one day they might.

And one day a salesman gunning his BMW to a late appointment might speed through a crossroads with a green light thinking its empty and you may make your risk assessment of this empty crossroad and get blindsided.

Your choice.

Ben, you are wrong.

It can be perfectly safe to jump a red light.

Do you choose to obey a law design to protect others or do you choose to ignore it based on your own risk assessment.

Obviously you can be safe or unsafe whilst rljing

Really? So you ignore a signal that is specifically there for everyone's safety (they exist for no other reason that I can work out), but that can be 'safe' ?? How does that work then?

An example - you RLJ and get hit by something that you haven't seen for some reason that was proceeding through a green light. Is that still safe because you perceived it to be so when you made the decision to RLJ? Good luck with that one.

Can anybody give a proper valid reason for RLJing that would stand up in a court of law?

fined £850 plus £930 costs and a £15 surcharge for the crash on July 5 last year.

Junkyard - Member

its a tautology to tell me something safe is safe but what you need to do is explain to me why a minority of road users ignoring the agreed rules will not lead to more accidents...

I haven't said that. What I've said, is that people RLJing safely will not lead to more accidents. If a RLJ leads to an accident then inherently it was not safe. As you say, this is a tautology and frankly doesn't need explaining.

Ignoring the agreed rules is likely to lead to an increase in risk, but being aware of them and choosing under certain conditions to disregard them is not the same as ignoring them.

So, define when it's safe to RLJ

Can anybody give a proper valid reason for RLJing that would stand up in a court of law?

Safety of life and limb would be the only acceptable explanation, I believe.

However, to prove that you [i]had to[/i] jump that light to for your own safety and well being would either mean that you were
A - Being chased by evil killer otters or something
B - Going too fast to be safe and in control in the first place, and therefore it wouldn't stand up in court.

So, in essence, no. Of course some would say that [i]they[/i] have a legitimate reason to do so because [i]they[/i] have judged that it is OK. [i]They[/i] are wrong.

Would you break the 30mph limit to allow a Fire Engine/Police car/Ambulance to reach its destination with less of a delay?

Different discussion; red lights are there because there is deemed to be a significant risk at that junction.

Speed limits are designed to allow you to react to potential situations based on the surroundings.

We will butt heads on this all night so I'm out of it; as a someone who drives up to a thousand miles a week at times there is a reasons why I choose to obey traffic laws and that is because people like those posting in this thread are on the roads.

Good night.

That's what I thought CFH

Different discussion;

piedi di formaggio - Member

So, define when it's safe to RLJ

Impossible to give some universal definition, as should be clear. But here are some specifics.

Pedestrian crossing. Someone presses button then crosses anyway as there is no traffic. Light changes to red after they've passed. There are no other pedestrians. This is exactly as safe as riding through a green light.

You approach a crossroads. You stop and observe in all directions, and there is no other traffic within a relevant distance. Therefore you pull away and turn left.

(incidentally, turning through red lights is a common feature in traffic law elsewhere. Is it your proposition that it must always be unsafe here because it's illegal, but that it can be safe in Canada because it's legal?)

you really are in a trolly mood DS
The weather is getting us all down 😥

[s]incidentally, turning through red lights is a common feature in traffic law elsewhere. Is it your proposition that it must always be unsafe here because it's illegal, but that it can be safe in Canada because it's legal?[/s]are you suggesting that is it is safer if we all stick to the agreed rules I mean they drive on the right in Canada and that works ok as well, perhaps you should try that 😉

you will make a decision and that decision might involve breaking the law for the greater good.

Examples of when jumping a red light is for the greater good please.

The discussion is about jumping red lights.

So...ye sanctimonious of stw...

You are on your bike at a crossroads in the middle of the night. You can see clearly that there's no traffic around but you face a RL.

You are saying it's de facto unsafe to RLJ?

If the sensors don't recognise you, it's also unjustified?

You are saying it's de facto unsafe to RLJ?

Jumping a red light on a bike at 26mph is frankly ridiculous, especially somewhere like Holborn, so I'm not defending the cyclist at all. BUT, the cyclist was fined and the guy is still alive.

Remember the thread about [url= http://www.journallive.co.uk/north-east-news/todays-news/2012/04/21/heaton-vicar-died-after-bike-hit-by-moving-car-61634-30806136/ ]this[/url] recently?

69 year old vicar dies after being 'scuffed' by a motorist trying to pass at a pinch point. Verdict? Accidental death.

BenHouldsworth - Member

Examples of when jumping a red light is for the greater good please.

Simple- fuel economy. This is the reason that it's legal to turn right at red lights in most of the eastern US.

I think what people are saying , given he was hit by a RLJ , is that in general it is more dangerous to ignore RLJ's that to adhere to them.

I think everyone can accept you can do it safely , as we could with drink driving, but in general it is safer to not do it.

I think everyone can accept you can do it safely , as we could with drink driving, but in general it is safer to not do it.

Pedestrian crossing. Someone presses button then crosses anyway as there is no traffic. Light changes to red after they've passed. There are no other pedestrians. This is exactly as safe as riding through a green light.

The fact you believe it is safe doesn't necessarily mean it is, you just perceive it to be so. You could be wrong. Anybody else proceeding on green would not expect you to be there

In a lot of cases nothing happens and one might ask, why prosecute?

And one day a salesman gunning his BMW

Plenty of red lights cover junctions where you can see all of the entry points and therefore accurately assess risk. Furthermore, on routes you regularly commute on you get to know the traffic light sequences and where the gaps are. I commute through a city centre most days and frankly I jump red lights to make sure I'm clear of a junction before the traffic starts to move.

If people can honestly not imagine a situation where this is safe and even sensible then frankly the skills you lack in anticipation make me nervous and I'd suggest you shouldn't be on road.

I wonder if these are the drivers who stop at roundabouts to check for traffic rather than assess this on the approach (where possible) and get around the roundabout with the minimum of interruption.

Furthermore, wonder if they only cross the road when the green man says it safe, and press the button to cross the road even when the road is empty? And if the answer is no, what makes you think it's safe to cross the road without pressing the button?

piedi di formaggio - Member

So the pedestrian who runs out of a door to cross as he has the green man - you didn't see him

Is he running at 500 miles an hour, or invisible? 😆

Junkyard - Member

I think everyone can accept you can do it safely

Hmm. Not so much, no.

I could shoot you and miss I assume we could just ignore it

If people can honestly not imagine a situation where this is safe and even sensible then frankly the skills you lack in anticipation make me nervous and I'd suggest you shouldn't be on road.

Who's saying this? I can imagine lots of situations where it might be perceived to be safer to RLJ, but it doesn't make it right.

Furthermore, on routes you regularly commute on you get to know the traffic light sequences and where the gaps are.

I'll reiterate my previous question:

Can anybody give a proper valid reason for RLJing that would stand up in a court of law?

Is he running at 500 miles an hour, or invisible?

You're right, it could become a dangerous maneuvre should night unexpectedly fall midway through.

Can anybody give a proper valid reason for RLJing that would stand up in a court of law?

I RLJ when I think it is safe to do so and like to think my judgement is good enough to ensure nothing bad happens when I do but if it did I'd happily accept responsibility.

piedi di formaggio - Member
If people can honestly not imagine a situation where this is safe [...] you shouldn't be on road.

Who's saying this?

My post wasn't really aiming at you, CheesyFeet* but actually I thought you did:

piedi di formaggio - Member
Personally I don't see any reason that a red light should be jumped

There was no mention of whether RLJ was right or wrong in your OP, just whether there was a reason for it. Conversely, I didn't say it was right or wrong, I thought I was just illustrating a possible reason.

We're no going to agree though and I've got a glass of wine and this weeks MCN to read, so I think I'll just...

EDIT: I know this isn't the translation: it's just I always think that's what it sounds like... 🙂

Can anybody give a proper valid reason for RLJing that would stand up in a court of law?

I RLJ when I think it is safe to do so and like to think my judgement is good enough to ensure nothing bad happens when I do but if it did I'd happily accept responsibility.

So that's a no, then?

The argument based on 'sometimes there is no need to obey the law' is kak. The law is a blanket set of rules that are designed to make things best for most people - usually as a result of evidence and case law. There are plenty of times I stop at a red light light, both on a bike and in a car, and think - I can *see* there is nothing coming/no one crossing, but I don't go. I think this boils down to me wanting to comply with a system I broadly agree with and although it frustrates I realise is in my general interest. Maybe in 100 years time, probably in the Netherlands, we will have evolved enough to update the law to say 'when approaching a junction, or seeing someone wanting to cross the road, it would generally be a good thing to slow down/let them cross etc' and reply on peoples' nice-ness. But whilst there are 70 million of us all trying to squeeze ourselves onto the same overloaded infrastructure, a simple set of rules is fine. Red light jumping boils down to the same thing no matter who does it - selfishness.

I commute through a city centre most days and frankly I jump red lights to make sure I'm clear of a junction before the traffic starts to move.

If people can honestly not imagine a situation where this is safe and even sensible then frankly the skills you lack in anticipation make me nervous and I'd suggest you shouldn't be on road.

Personally, I wouldn't have thought commuting through a city centre on a bike was that situation.

CaptainFlashheart - Member
Can anybody give a proper valid reason for RLJing that would stand up in a court of law?
I RLJ when I think it is safe to do so and like to think my judgement is good enough to ensure nothing bad happens when I do but if it did I'd happily accept responsibility.
So that's a no, then?

Of course it's a no. In the same way jumping a red light covering a pedestrian crossing on an empty dual carriageway at 4am in the morning when you have 500m visibility is still breaking the law.

LONG LIVE SANCTIMONEY!

If people can honestly not imagine a situation where this is safe and even sensible then frankly the skills you lack in anticipation make me nervous and I'd suggest you shouldn't be on road.
Personally, I wouldn't have thought commuting through a city centre on a bike was that situation.

I wonder if you've ever commuted through a city centre then? Imagine, you're in a left hand lane which goes left and straight ahead and you're at the head of the queue, the first three of four cars are turning left. The lights turn green and you'll find yourself cut up on more than the odd occasion by traffic turning left as it out accelerates you.

Not sure if this is as clear in type as it is in my head...

I think the trouble with red light jumping 'safely' is that you set up a grey area in your own mind. This will range from the 'perfectly safe' (you are the only creature alive after some type of apocalypse) to the perfectly unsafe, where the child's face is on the tarmac in front of you.

There is a limit to what is safe, which will invariably be different for each person, depending on their risk/hazard perception.

A single instance of RLJ may well be 'safe', but saying it is 'safe' to RLJ is completely wrong. All in my opinion.

Matt

So that's a no, then?

Do you never ever break the law in some way? I doubt it very much.

LONG LIVE SANCTIMONEY!

Not sure if this is as clear in type as it is in my head...

Hands up who ever had an alcoholic drink in a pub before they turned 18, or bought some cigarettes before 16. That was illegal you know.

matt_bl - Member

A single instance of RLJ may well be 'safe', but saying it is 'safe' to RLJ is completely wrong

I don't see that [i]anyone[/i]'s said it's inherently safe- that'd be nuts; only that it can be done safely.

I commuted by bike into Leeds for 15 years.

I choose to obey laws because I know how few obeyed them or respected them when I was cycling to work.

Have you ever thought that folk like me who choose to stop and not go through on amber, choose to not close down gaps close to the kerb, leave 5 seconds before setting off to make sure cyclist are clear, are the ones who keep you safe?

I frequently commute late at night by bike and encounter red lights. Are you supposed to wait like a fool at the intersection for a car to come along and trigger the sensors, or do you check and ride through if clear? I do the latter.
Alternately you could hop onto the footpath, breaking the law again and push the pedestrian button.

Traffic lights were actually dangerous in many middle eastern cities and were removed. It seems many arabs thought only fools would take orders from inanimate lights and many disregarded their apparent authority.
Now they just toot their horns whenever approaching intersections at night and its a much safer place.
Busy intersections are controlled by armed policeman which assume much greater authority than an automated light. I think they're onto something personally.

Ben, just because someone admits to RLJing, they are a dangerous driver?

Life is neither polarized nor black and white.

Have you ever thought that folk like me who choose to stop and not go through on amber, choose to not close down gaps close to the kerb, leave 5 seconds before setting off to make sure cyclist are clear, are the ones who keep you safe?

No. What keeps me safe is knowing how to ride safely for the conditions and traffic, trying to anticipate other users and safe appropriate speed. But thanks anyway, Batman. 🙂

But thanks anyway, Batman.

😆

No problem citizen!

But seriously, unless you really are the resurrection, what keeps you safe on a bike is other road users being considerate and vice versa.

Have you ever thought that folk like me who choose to stop and not go through on amber, choose to not close down gaps close to the kerb, leave 5 seconds before setting off to make sure cyclist are clear, are the ones who keep you safe?

<tongue in cheek>
If the more argumentative on the forum hadn't already taken up the opposite stance, no doubt someone would have pointed out that by driving in this manner you might actually be putting cyclists in more danger.

Bad/inconsiderate drivers don't just get frustrated with cyclists, they get frustrated if you don't pull away from the lights immediately they change and so could drive more erratically in a rush to get past that bothersome cyclist.

If out of consideration you wait "too long" to safely pass a moving cyclist on a busy road a bad/inconsiderate driver is more likely to try to nip through behind you only to be confronted by oncoming traffic and forcing the cyclist into a ditch.
</tongue in cheek>

Is TJ on a ban at the moment or something ?

I understand that a red light can be jumped safely but surely stopping for every red light is far safer?

Far safer than what?

Jumping thd odd one safely?

like Hugor I sometimes ride across a couple of intersections at night
theres one in particular which has to be triggered by a car and my weight doesnt do it...
so do i wait for a car or run the light?
in a traffic system which is designed for cars cyclists have to make their own decisions. I ve talked to coppers who agree on this...

Cyclists RLJing.
Cars RLJing.
Pedestrians crossing without looking.
I see lots of this every day.

All stupid things to do, some more stupid than others.

cynic-al - Member
Far safer than what?

Jumping thd odd one safely?

I was stating an obvious point that it's safer to stop at a red light than go through, surely waiting a light to safe to go makes more sense?

Bad/inconsiderate drivers don't just get frustrated with cyclists, they get frustrated if you don't pull away from the lights immediately they change

And not from Amber to Green, from Red to Amber. Amber is the new Green. Certainly on my commute in Central London. Pretty much everybody: buses, cyclists, cars, scooters, motorcycles, taxis, lorries; goes on amber.

All of them are breaking the law. Wrong or right, safe or unsafe, it's as illegal as murder.

Red light jumping is wrong whatever the circumstances, there's no excuse for it. To say there's a safe way to jump a red light is utter twaddle, the same as saying there's a safe way to stick your hand in front of a revolving circular saw.

What really hacks me off about red light jumpers is that they are showing [b]contempt[/b] for the laws that most of us obey. Their actions are utterly selfish and without any consideration for fellow citizens. I hope the victim sues the balls off the RLJer in the case linked.

To say there's a safe way to jump a red light is utter twaddle

What if you can clearly see that there's no traffic from either direction?

Rlj-ing can be done safely but its still not "right" if you get caught doing it you can give your reasons in mitigation and see if it gets you out of trouble. if you actually hit/injure someone then you obviously weren't doing it safely and will get the book thrown at you, as you should. would kinda suck if you got jail time for breaking someones arm/leg while so many drivers get away with killing people due to innatention tho

And when a say suck i mean it'd be a ****ing travesty of justice, of which seem to be quite common

I give up.

I'm dumbfounded at the idiocy, sanctimoney and inflexibility shown here.

What if you can clearly see that there's no traffic from either direction?

This is where the grey area appears, what if someone who comes out from a shop/side street etc see's green and runs to cross.

getting up to a full sprint while he's still in the shop, bursting out the door and throwing himself at your front wheel?