this is just a bit of fun
jesus, don’t set them off again
From my hazy memory of doing it (no I wasn't sub 12 hours), it is roughly 1/3 climbing, 1/3 descending and 1/3 approximately flat.
1 possible theory:
On the approximately flat bits, an accomplished distance rider should be able to do 15mph unassisted on an XC type bike. (do the 'rules' allow you to turn it off?)
the downs are obviously coasting, and that leaves thirty something miles of climbing to use the motor for. how strongly you need the assistance for the hill is the key to getting this right.
Rival theory:
calculate desired average speed (8.3mph) but allow for stops, gates or thinking you can do it faster, etc. and then exert no energy - either your own or motor - in exceeding this. Only when downhill coasting allow yourself to go faster. theory being that a steady 10mph is more efficient than some at 15mph and some at 5mph; and stopping for every gate and rambler is more inefficient the faster you are going.
What I said still applies tho – as the motor puts in power proportional to the power you put in then the slower you go the slower the battery gets used up.
It doesn't apply.
That isn't how the E8000 delivers assistance.
You have no experience of using one. So stop arguing.
You are 100% wrong in your assumption
Yes spinning rather than mashing may make a small differnce ( as the motor is in a more efficient zone) but the key thing is how much power you are putting in.
no it isn't. (as above)
you don't know what you're talking about.
100W is 100W. The only difference the speed makes is the efficiency of the electric motor.
you're wrong again.
Stop trying to argue about things you have absolutely no experience of.
ok, last post as its not really what the thread is about.
Take two riders who hate climbing and love descending. If one is ebiked and the other not, then yes the ebiker will have more fun in the given time.
Lots of bike riders have fun climbing as well as descending. In this case the ebiker doesn’t have more fun just because he can go further.
Dear Mr Fun Policeman
I happen to enjoy pretty much all aspects of mountainbiking. Yes, even climbing but I'm particularly fond of cornering, jumping, drifting and manualling. If I were to go out on my Ebike for 2 hours I could cover far more distance and considerably more elevation. This would mean I could hit at least 40% more corners, jumps and flat sections where I like to manual. It would also mean my enjoyment of otherwise featureless/dull uphill corners would increase from the ability to treat them as if they were flat corners and some even berms and wallrides due to the increased speed available. due to the speed/power increase many previously unrideable technical climbs also become a new challenge while others become a different challenge (because of the speed increase). The assistance also means I wouldn't be as tired over any brow and especially towards the second half of the ride so I'd actually have more energy for "stunts"
Are you honestly saying I'm not allowed to claim I've had more fun in that 2 hours compared to the 40% less involvement I'd have had on my non-Ebilke in the same timescale?
Yours Sincerely
Gx
Ps. Have you even ridden a (decent) Emtb?
All I’ve got to say is have fun as it’s a great ride along the South Downs way. I don’t care if you do it on an E bike or normal push bike the name of the game is to get out there and have fun. And I should know as I’ve had two major operations in 15 months and I love mountain biking so for me it was either get an E bike and get back up the hills or give up my bikes. I chose the new E bike and I haven’t looked back.
Geex,
Rather than just saying that is wing and the e8000 didn't work like that why don't you just explain how the e8000 does deliver power?
This would save it going into a bun fight cycle.
Ta x
Good luck Rob. I hope you enjoy your challenge with or without STW approval
Are you honestly saying I’m not allowed to claim I’ve had more fun in that 2 hours
Yes. How many times do I have to explain it. If we both rode for 2 hours, I can guarantee I have had as much fun as you have. Why? because I enjoy all parts of my ride.
Going further might increase your enjoyment but it will never be more than mine because I enjoy every minute of that 2 hours.
If you don't enjoy such large parts of your sport if you haven't got an ebike, then why did you do it in the first place? I think any logical person would conclude that they don't actually like mountain biking at that point and quit.
this is just a bit of fun
And on a bicycle.
Challenge for next time - singlespeed butchers bike with enough bacon to survive the trip on board?
How many times do I have to explain it.
Can I vote for none? 🙂
This would save it going into a bun fight cycle
Not how effective trolling works
Not how effective trolling works
With or without power assistance?
Geex,
Rather than just saying that is wing and the e8000 didn’t work like that why don’t you just explain how the e8000 does deliver power?
I was just about to say the exact same
Last post to Geex
You need to understand a bit more about the terms you use. 100w is a measure of power at an instant. 100w is 100w The cadence at which you are pedalling is irrelevant. If its putting out 100 w at 2 rpm or 100 w at 20000 rpm its still just 100 w output.
this is basic o grade physics
so sorry dude - either you don't understand the terms or you can't explain your thinking
Edit I wonder if you are confusing torque with power output? Because if its a torque figure - Nm then your point is right - torque is power divided by rpm so for the same torque figure the higher the rpm the higher the power
To go backto Rob - its a fun idea. You are going to have to do some clever work to hypermile it. Not only will you need to not use the motor for a large chunk you are going to have to work out at what speeds and cadence its most efficient
Good luck with the challenge, Rob.
I like the idea of tackling it on an e bike. I reckon you will find the second half harder than the first!😉
Be sure to post how you get on.
As to the question of why? Why not, I say.
Hope you have a good time.
Cheers
Sanny
Good luck Rob, I'll be riding the SDW again this year....Over 3 days! Lol I just love the SDW,a real life affirming ride.
Anyway, good luck again and I'll be following how you get on!👍
That’s stupid and totally pointless. The perfect combination. Enjoy 😊
“Why would riding faster with a motor make it more technically challenging than trying to clear it under your own power?”
I think you’ve forgotten the huge variety of climbing that one does on a MTB and how much it varies with your terrain. My local trails are mostly either so steep you have to push up or easy and thus boring singletrack climbs (which one often skips and gets to the top via a fire road).
On the ebike I can pedal up stuff that is normally push-up only, and the easy singletrack climbs become like riding gently downhill singletrack, mostly about the corners, because you can go uphill that fast.
The cadence at which you are pedalling is irrelevant
I think what geex is trying to say is that on this particular bike the assist is proportional to input cadence, not input power. So by pedalling more slowly in a higher gear you'd get less assist.
Is that right?
You’ve no idea what geex is trying to say because you’ve never ridden him. You have no right to an opinion 😉
All the e-bike arguing makes me laugh
I had a normal bike for years, i now have a e-mtb
I had lots of fun on the normal bike, i had lots of free time to ride but didn't enjoy climbing (although i do enjoy it on the road bike for some strange reason)
I have lots of fun on the e-mtb, i have very limited free time now (baby) i now enjoy climbing as i can get it over quicker to spend more time riding downhill and getting more laps done in my limited time
Fun for me is measured in how long im smiling for, i smile more on the e-mtb than i did on the normal mtb so im having more fun but most people i see on normal bikes seem to be having just as much fun as me
No matter what bike you ride as long as your enjoying yourself, who cares
Back to the OP, good luck with one battery, i hope to be attempting it this year, will be my first time doing the whole route (done this kind of elevation and more distance on the road bike so kinda know what im letting myself in for)
I will be cheating even more than you though, i plan to use two 504wh batteries (one on the bike and one in my rucksack) and a 252wh bottle cage battery, so will have 1260wh
Will be on a 52lb 180mm travel Specialized Kenevo, will see how far i make it before bailing to the nearest train station
Joneseyboy - I didn't want to talk to TJ at all nevermind argue if I'm honest as he knows **** all about the motor or how it delivers its asistance. Reading his Blind fixation on small (irrelevant) details he believes to be true is just tiresome. I really don't know why he insists on arguing on so many subjects he knows so little about.
eg.
You need to understand a bit more about the terms you use. 100w is a measure of power at an instant. 100w is 100w The cadence at which you are pedalling is irrelevant. If its putting out 100 w at 2 rpm or 100 w at 20000 rpm its still just 100 w output.
this is basic o grade physics
I meant a steady 100w rider input not instantanious (not that it is even relevant as it was just an example)
Was naively believing all E-bike's electronic motor controllers output power based only on power input also part of "O" grade physics curriculum in 1956?
@molgrips. Yes. Sort of. The E8000 assists based on cadence AND torque but outputs assistance at a higher power level with higher cadence. it's plain to see from the power bar on the display and affects battery range quite considerably. The Cadence range where the motor assists most isn't huge though and tapers off again at proper high cadence (130rpm+). Had TJ spent any time on one he "might" have figured this out for himself. Doubtful as I don't think it's on Wiki yet.
*swoon* @ Mr Fun Policeman
If only we could all get the same endorphin rush from trudging slowly up dull climbs as you.
Oh... and by dodging my question I'm assuming you've never spent a decent amount of time riding a decent Emtb. You probably shouldn't. That way you'll never have to find out how much moar fun you could have been having all this time 😉
I still don't really "get" the challenge Rob. But it doesn't matter what I think, crack on. It's all riding bikes. init?
BTW I'm one of the only Emtb owners I know who intentionally rides my Emtb while switched off for large chunks of time/distance/climbing. Mine is pretty light (@ 47lb) and I run lighter faster rolling tyre compounds than most Emtb riders because of this. (Exo dual compound DHF/SS though not XC tyres)
You're making a very wise choice in fitting XC tyres. But even with those and a light(ish) Emtb I really don't envy your task.
good luck with it.
I really don’t know why he insists on arguing on so many subjects he knows so little about.
are you new here? 😉
Quite new. Yes.
😉
Thing is. I know Teej in real life and quite like him.
“I really don’t know why he insists on arguing on so many subjects he knows so little about.”
TJ’s response to the autism thread was very enlightening on that front!
Geex so actually you simply didn't explain yourself properly. 100 w rider input not 100 w motor output. ( I and the rest of us were discussing motor output) I did say you are either very confused about the physics OR not explaining yourself properly. Now you give a little more detail its the latter
Mind you you are still getting your SI units a bit confused Watts has no time compoinent
You should fit a dynamo hub and charge up the battery from that.
If he got it set up just right, with decent cables, he could give it just a few pedal strokes at winchester, then the dynamo hub would power the motor, which would push the bike forwards, which in turn would spin the dynamo which would power the motor more, which would push the bike forward, which in turn would spin the dynamo which would power the motor more.
He could just sit on his self propelled machine and simply enjoy teh view.
And probably stop for a wee somewhere along the way. I guess..
DrP
Chief, None of the (diagnosed Aspy) autistic people I know (very well) argue about things they don't know anything about. Quite the opposite. But TJ is a pig headed bloke (they are not). This "trait" is not exclusive to Autism. Please don't fall foul of run around playing the "A" card for someonme you've never even met.
TJ what I said was
output a steady 100w...
By that I meant a "rider input" of 100w. to me this was clear. But I really was half arsed replying to you as I genuinely didn't want to have this dull pointless conversation with you in the first place.
My SI units were fine.
Stop clutching at further irrelevancies to argue.
so output 100w = rider input 100w in your explanation. - thats where the confusion came from. Fine. Your explanation was unclear so we were actually discussing differnt things. confusion now cleared up
I agree this is nothing to do with any aspie traits bar of course I took the words you posted at face value and didn't get you meant something other than what you said.
so we were actually discussing differnt things.
No. only YOU were.
😉
"Can’t see what there is to prove here."
I'd imagine scott bikes might want to sell a few models on the back of it .
Anyhow , good luck Rob. Have fun.
What time are you setting off?
this thread is well funny, haven't got a clue what anyone is saying but (@ 47lb) for an eBike, my old Gspot used to weigh that much and i used to pedal that around, so Rob if you run outof juice it will be like riding a big old bouncy bike for XC.. Have fun!
Back on track...
Something I've wanted to try for a bit was to speak to the local shop to me (South Downs Bikes) and have 5 turbo levos lined up along the SDW..one every 20 miles (? a guess) and just smash out the SDW on an e-bike in TURBO mode.... swapping to the next one when the power runs out...
I figured that as I can do it sub 9 hours on a rigid SS, a bit of 'leccy assistance might make it a bit quicker...
DrP
(however, actually, don't they top out at 16mph??? hmm... maybe i'd reach the limit there then...)
yes legal ones top out at 15.5 mph. However you could do all the climbs at top speed and of course you can pedal them faster than that on the downs.
In the up vs down debate. I've heard of uplift days, but never downlift days.
es legal ones top out at 15.5 mph. However you could do all the climbs at top speed and of course you can pedal them faster than that on the downs.
yeah.. if tackling the climbs at 15mph, and using the full sus on the downs, I reckon i'd be MUCH quicker!
DrP
I’ve heard of uplift days, but never downlift days.
Maybe not, but climbing up technical climbs then bombing down a fire road does seem to be a thing in Europe (Germans in particular I think). Never really caught on here, but I reckon some of my riding gets close and I do love a sausage 🙂
Something I’ve wanted to try for a bit was to speak to the local shop to me (South Downs Bikes) and have 5 turbo levos lined up along the SDW..one every 20 miles (? a guess) and just smash out the SDW on an e-bike in TURBO mode…. swapping to the next one when the power runs out…
You do realise you can just change the battery?
This is a bit more of a challenge
Avoid being stranded somewhere and just mount the ebike on a treadmill... no arduous pedaling and no chance of crap weather either!
Can’t see what there is to prove here.
Not everyone is trying to prove something (and Rob especially doesn't need to), sometimes people are just having a laugh.
Go for it Rob.
I also like the flat out turbo many battery idea just to set an assisted record.
Can I just get something clarified?
Am I going to be forced to ride an e-bike if I want to smile whilst I am riding?
very few folk smile whilst cycling any bike.
apparently you need a fatbike for teh grinz
Thats just miserable roadies and east lothian folk who never smile 😉 the rest of us grin all the time 😉
It's going to interesting to see how this turns out.
There's lots of variables, so there's lots of theories whether it can or cannot be done. Or rather with a rider of the stature of Rob, it can be done, so the question really is how much of the battery juice will he use doing it.
And of course the typical STW outrage that some iconoclast dares to not conform to their narrow focus of what constitutes fun or an orthodox bike for the job.
If the challenge is to make the whole trip before running out of juice, then I'd do the first half with the power off while I was fresh.
If the challenge is to make the whole trip before running out of juice, then I’d do the first half with the power off while I was fresh.
That sounds to me like it's completely against the sprit of the ride. Using that logic he may as well do with it off for the whole ride and see what his time is 🙂
What would the SPZ app suggest if you entered the distance & climbing stats for the SDW? How would it decide how to share the power - by time or distance or something, or would this throw it completely? I guess it would never get out of lowest mode?
This ride does open up an interesting question: at what length/difficulty of ride does a particular e-bike become slower than an equivalent non-e bike (assuming no recharging or battery swapping).
Clearly for a 5km loop of some hilly trails an e-bike should be quicker.
For a 500km ride it will definitely be slower as for the vast majority you'll be lugging a heavy bike with no pedal assist around.
But where does the crossover happen? I'm sure it will be in less than the 100 miles of the SDW, but for half that distance would the e-bike still be quicker?
Hello all - all this chat is more detailed that I thought..... I plan to use 'eco' mode on the steeper uphills; for all those that know the SDW lets do a list of them and see how it stacks up. First hill I expect to need the 'assist' is the tarmac out of Chilcomb - who feels like listing out the next ones?
I'm getting ready for the rest of the day, thanks for the interest - I'm sure the bike will do me proud and get me to the Kiosk before I know it.
Enjoy stalking mo on https://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=0gEppCB0bKu3eM1WtLx5spZzUQoo0vFCL&fbclid=IwAR0OxCduaaL1zPEQyKr6ghbtqSBaGqASjolQDO1BwWAf4LcpkWhqxbJhz3s
and Andy G will update the page with some pics as the day goes.
That sounds to me like it’s completely against the sprit of the ride.
There is no spirit of the ride. Rob has already said he'll push some bits to save power, pedal only other parts. It's like me saying I'm going to drive to Spain without refuelling, only I'll run out so will be towed part of the way.
We know Rob could cycle the whole thing, and have a full battery at the end so I fail to see any "interest" in the ride, any more than people would be interested in my ride last night. ( it was great by the way 😁)
I hope the OP can handle riding 60 miles non powered! 😆 (Choose the first 60 miles as non powered if you want to make it!)
But good luck.
As for extending the battery range by going slower, I'd say it's a bit of a moot question. He'll be riding eco mode all the way anyhow, so the speeds aren't going to be blistering fast anyhow, and wind resistance at higher speeds is what causes more drain on the battery than anything else. So I doubt going even slower will extend the range all that much as the wind resistance will be less of a factor in eco and at lower speeds.
Still say 40 miles is the whack on the undulating terrain of SDW, most I've managed on a 500wh battery is 45miles on road/gravel paths, still hand a wee bit in the tank, not much, but it was essentially flat. (I was just testing range, on xkings, wasn't particularly slow mind.)
Tyres will make more of a difference, I reckon swapping from continental xkings, to high rollers costs me about up to about 1/5 to 1/4 of the battery.
es legal ones top out at 15.5 mph. However you could do all the climbs at top speed and of course you can pedal them faster than that on the downs.
yeah.. if tackling the climbs at 15mph, and using the full sus on the downs, I reckon i’d be MUCH quicker!
DrP
You’d be even quikerer if you de-restricted it.
You could pull some wheelies too 🤠🕺🤙
taxi25
...We know Rob could cycle the whole thing, and have a full battery at the end so I fail to see any “interest” in the ride...
But there is... 🙂
Member
Can I just get something clarified?
Am I going to be forced to ride an e-bike if I want to smile whilst I am riding?
I don't think so, I said "This is ****ing mint!" out loud whilst riding my bike down an old favourite descent the other day after a long spell off the bike. It has tiny 650b wheels, minuscule 2.3" tyres, I was on my own, and my frame isn't even BOOST.
Cant fathom why my catchy tagline suggestion of 'Rob discharges on the downs' didnt make the cut. Oh well, may the electrons be good to you and hold out till Eastbourne Rob 🙂
I’ve done 34 miles on half a bosch 400 battery.
I weigh 20 stone, and i did walk up one really steep hill.
But on the later flatter bits, the most economical way was to actually sit on the speed limiter.
Acceleration uses a lot of power, pulling a fat knacker up steep hills does too.
I’m interested to see how op gets on tbh. Hope he manages it.
6AM and the church bell chimes in Winchester. Chilly but Rob is kitted up and off. 5 bars on the battery level
Anyone care to assist on getting a shared Google pm to to appear
Another attempt at a photo link
Good luck 👍
On his way
Have fun!
Rob went through QECP at 08:19. Already punctured before Milburries, Stans did its job with a tubeless repair slug.
Battery still on 5 bars.
500whr battery over 100 miles sounds impossible but in reality it is do-able.
If you were to use zero assistance for all decents , and all the flat sections and keep the battery for the stiffer climbs then you need the battery for approx 5hrs of the whole ride
If you could add 100W to your output for those climbs then its job -jobbed.
A std distance rider should be able to tap along at 150W all day on a pedal bike , with an up rider+ bike weight of roughly 85kg.
By adding a battery and motor and an extra 10kg of mass the Watts per Kg of overall weight is significantly increased if run at 100watts of assisatnce 85/150 V 95/250
So 10 climbs of 30 mins @ 100w gets you there . I actually dont think there are 10 climbs that will take 30mins. As with elec assistance and a theoretical speed of 10mph uphill , 10 x 30mins = 300mins = 5hrs = 50miles @ 10mph. So using that logic there would be no flat sections half up and thn half down.
There has to be an allowance for going slower on the flat and on on any gentle rises where using elec would be wastefull.
Thinking about the route, in reality there are probably 20-25 bits where ~ 10 mins of boost would get you over the top alot quicker and alow the battery to recover a tiny bit
Reminder keep an eye on Robs progress:
https://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/viewspots.jsp?glId=0gEppCB0bKu3eM1WtLx5spZzUQoo0vFCL&fbclid=IwAR0OxCduaaL1zPEQyKr6ghbtqSBaGqASjolQDO1BwWAf4LcpkWhqxbJhz3s
can't you just stop at a servo to stuff a load of ginsters and fizzy snakes in the battery when it runs out of energy?
Rob went through Cocking at 09:43. Running well.
Battery on 5 of 5 bars.
is he taking this serious.
hes not wearing his bibs outside his top as per usual.
Rob got to Amberley 1/2 way at 11:05, still 5 bars of battery left. Think the plan is to start using the boost a bit more now. Up Amberley Mount for sure.
I would wait until past Truleigh YHA to start hammering battery, big hills after that and they come up fast
4 Hours to go, looks a long way from Eastbourne to me.
Edit: I just need to refresh my screen ha ha
He's about to go within half a mile of the office, 4 hours to Eastbourne from here isn't too difficult.
Newmarket, Itford, Windover and the Eastbourne Mile climbs left.
Itford is the worst of them, hate that one once you are on the grass.
Robs just been through Southease at 14:45. Still 4 batery bars remaining out if 5.
Proper good effort. 👍👍🥳
I thought he’d be done in by Cocking. 🤷♂️
#whatdoiknow
Really impressive, loving the story.
