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Do you hire the one who did a design for another customer, then basically re-used it for a competitor – or one who didn’t do that?
Who knows how it happened. Once you've made one, anyone else can just copy it. A HT frame is an incredibly simple design to clone, all the parts are freely available in every frame factory.
Do you hire the one who did a design for another customer, then basically re-used it for a competitor
I think the point was made earlier that the current sonder line-up aren't 'brant' designs?
all it takes is for on one to pop some cheap stuff up for sale and all will be forgiven 🙁
Who knows how it happened.
One person probably does, but hasn't showed up yet.
I think the point was made earlier that the current sonder line-up aren’t ‘brant’ designs?
OK maybe I got the wrong end of the stick. If that's the case and the "copied" bikes were someone else's design then it's less dodgy, granted.
I could make a killing from Ti pitchforks.
No one copy my idea, please.
footflaps
someone else made one which looks similar,
It doesn't look similar....it looks identical.
Now that’s a test I’d like to see. 3 identical frames, all painted Matt black, 1 ALU, 1 steel, 1 titanium. See out of a spectrum of 5 riders who could notice any difference
IIRC a good few years ago the mag did exactly that - two Charge Dusters both painted black, ridden back to back by anyone who fancied a go at telling the difference. One Ti the other steel but they didn't tell the testers that.
The general conclusion was a bit vague but seemed be essentially err... no they couldn't tell!
That said I'm sure I *could* tell my Tinbred from a steel one properly blinded. It's just... zingier.
It doesn’t look similar….it looks identical.
Bar the head tube and the writing.
and the angles
I wouldn't hang my hat on the angles being half a degree different when measuring them side by side
You can expect some apparently genius marketing email form PX/OnOne/Brant within a day or two slagging Alpkit and the ex PX staff that now work there. Or how wonderful Superstar Components now are, Ginger Fruit/Neil and Brant must have had a love in!
Bar the head tube and the writing.
And the dropouts being a completely different design
nedrapier
Bar the head tube and the writing.
Headtube looks very similar - visual difference could easily be head badge placement & how the white background has been placed around the Sonder frame in the pic.
The writing - ah yes. Silly me. I didn't think it needed mentioning that the branding would be different.
big_scot_nanny
and the angles
The angle variation looks close enough to be manufacturing tolerance.
teamslug
And the dropouts being a completely different design
They look the same to me - hard to be 100% sure as the pics are so different but very little (if any) difference between them. Maybe this is one of those blue dress/gold dress things...?
The angle variation looks close enough to be manufacturing tolerance.
Given 1° is enough for a bike to be lauded as bleeding edge uber modern or an outdated death trap?
The frames are close enough in design that the original On One website images were Sonders.
Given 1° is enough for a bike to be lauded as bleeding edge uber modern or an outdated death trap?
You could probably get a 1 degree angle change with tire sizes and pressures.
Hi all, Brant here*
They're different bikes, stop wasting your time.
*not brant
Teamslug can't see a difference on zestar
Stumpy, they're definitely different. I've got a Signal, it's definite not straight taper, and definitely is on the zestar.
I was referring to the Mutsu. They are definitely different because I have got one!!.
dangeourbrain
Given 1° is enough for a bike to be lauded as bleeding edge uber modern or an outdated death trap?
Marketing, innit?
jameso, who I think designs bikes for a living (Pinnacle, is it?) reckoned on half a degree between batches in this post - quite a while back:
https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/how-is-head-angle-measured/
and this MBR article comparing the Strive to the Capra talks about variation in head angle spec. v's measured:
https://www.mbr.co.uk/news/yt-capra-vs-canyon-strive-best-345073
nedrapier
Stumpy, they’re definitely different. I’ve got a Signal, it’s definite not straight taper, and definitely is on the zestar.
Hmmm. Strange. what is straight taper - do you mean 1.5" straight?
The Alpkit website say the headset is: "IS42.IS52 headset" direct copy from the website.
The On One website says the headset is: "Headset Type Tapered / IS42/28.6 IS52/40" direct copy from the website.
which i think is the same headset.
You could probably get a 1 degree angle change with tire sizes and pressures
Whilst I don't disagree my point is more, that in an industry which is currently dominated by 2mm here, 0.3° there, dismissing those differences as mf tolerance sounds more like making the facts fit the narrative than the other way around.
If you don't credit the accuracy of the numbers Its got to be accepted its just as likely (if not more so) the bikes are radically different and manipulated to fit around a particular set of on trend/niche numbers (by tyre size or what ever), as opposed to being the same but being manipulated so as to look different.
Edit :
jameso, who I think designs bikes for a living (Pinnacle, is it?) reckoned on half a degree between batches in this post – quite a while back
Sounds a lot but, even if it were 5 as opposed to 0.5, you don't just pick a number anywhere in that range it's x+/- 5 not x + 10
dangeourbrain
Sounds a lot but, even if it were 5 as opposed to 0.5, you don’t just pick a number anywhere in that range it’s x+/- 5 not x + 10
I spend a fair amount of my working day considering tolerances, so understand how they work.
I never said that it was definitely explained by the variation in manufacturing tolerance - just that it could be explained by that.
I don't know if they definitely are the same frame, but they do seem very close in terms of appearance & numbers.
I also don't know what tolerance a bike frame manufacturer works to. In the industry I work in, +/- 0.5 degrees would be out of the question but it seems plausible for a bike frame & slacker tolerances = cheaper parts.
To be honest, it's not implausible that a manufacturer would apply a biased tolerance to an angle to ensure they only ever went 'slacker' than the design intent. e.g. 65+0/-1; the reality being that the manufacturer would probably target the mid-point of the range.
Brant Brant Brant, please copy a Surly cross check but at £250 🙂
"it’s definite not straight taper"
I think by definition, nothing is?
Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.
Are the tube profiles the same? Same weight?
Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery
Or...
‘Creativity is great but plagiarism is faster.’
It's just a bit of a power game with PX, they weren't happy about Alpkit taking on whatever staff they did from them. A show of strength, we know more factories/frame manufacturers and can copy anything you do and sell it cheaper.
I’m just annoyed that neither one has a sweet headbadge. That’s like a cake with no icing. Can another bike brand please copy it and add a nice headbadge?
It’s just a bit of a power game with PX, they weren’t happy about Alpkit taking on whatever staff they did from them.
I'm not aware of what happened but I do remember something about PX moving staff onto zero hours contracts - or something like that?
Would those things be connected?