[Closed] On one copying Sonder??

When you say "copy", I think you might mean that they've both just picked the same frame from the catalogue

The heatubes are different?

you need to compare the numbers, not the pictures, surely?

Some of the Sonder photos have the same gap between the top and down tubes. The shape of the headtube just looks different because of the badge coming into view i think. Haven't checked the geometry, but SA and HA are basically the same

I would be a bit bummed if I had paid almost double for the Sonder based on those pics

from the sonder owners page on fb;

yep, they've copied the Signal, Camino Ti and Broken Road, we're looking into what we can do about it.

When you say “copy”, I think you might mean that they’ve both just picked the same frame from the catalogue

I don't think Sonder buy catalogue frames.

However, given Alpkit are the past masters of copying/rebadging others folks designs there's a pot/kettle nuance about this situation.

from the sonder owners page on fb;

yep, they’ve copied the Signal, Camino Ti and Broken Road, we’re looking into what we can do about it.

I wasn't aware that a bunch of angles and lengths etc was copyright-able, so this will be interesting.

Doesn't Brant design for both? Perhaps an agreement to get bulk purchase benefits?

According to Neil at Sonder. It is his design and his moulds.

I was going to say is there a brant connection? I don't think there is...?

Seems on-one are happy to steal pics online, what's a few frame designs too?

It's alright, they've a good customer service line you can call. Oh wait, my bad, you have to page brant on here and do it all publically while a few more back links and special offers are dropped into the thread for added bonus.

There is. When he did that Pact Bikes thingy.
https://outdoorsmagic.com/article/alpkits-new-bikes-first-pictures/

I'm curious what moulds Neil is using for tubular metal frames.

I assume the moulds refers to the carbon frames...

I wonder how well protected his IP is, as they might well be in the big catalogue now

I would still buy the Sonder. Sonders 10 year warranty and excellent customer service far outweigh the crappy 2 year warranty from PX and appalling CS.

Brant does full refunds from 10 years ago on frames that didn’t break and are no longer owned by the person getting the refund.

Beat that Alpkit 👍

more from fb

Same factory, 100% our own design, they supplied their own (replica) drawings so the factory couldn't say no.

I used to work there and Brant did design the original BR and Camino TI before i joined Sonder (so i guess still has copies of the original drawings which he modified to match our current, updated designs that i've done), these drawings are our property though as he was paid for the work.

bad news. Looks like a direct copy. No wonder Sonder are upset.

Oh boohoo. Paging Jeff Jones.

However, given Alpkit are the past masters of copying/rebadging others folks designs there’s a pot/kettle nuance about this situation.

+1

As @jimdubleyou says, this'll be interesting.

A hardtail frame is hardly the bleeding edge of bicycle design, so what are Sonder claiming as 'their' design?

Many things look like other things, doesn't make them the same though.

However, given Alpkit are the past masters of copying/rebadging others folks designs there’s a pot/kettle nuance about this situation.

Have they previously used the same actual design, just tweaked a bit?

I can see why they feel it's a bit cheeky, and I've seen similar situations in my work - freelances submitting essentially the same work to different clients.

*opens biscuits*

First they rip off the three little pigs and now this.  In the race to the bottom PX really are ahead of Daffyd Thomas😀

^^^^ okay now I'm def opening the biscuits

A hardtail frame is hardly the bleeding edge of bicycle design, so what are Sonder claiming as ‘their’ design?

Yep and all the individual features have been used before (the seat tube gusset thing, the down tube bend towards head tube). If the sum of a load of features used by others before but in a certain configuration makes the frame unique/copyrightable is doubtful I would think.

Lol I'd buy the cheap copy😆😂
Overpriced junk anyway

https://m.pinkbike.com/buysell/2175567/

Did bikes not look broadly the same for like a century? Can you claim IP on what is basically some angles?

Same frame (essentially) built in the same factory, but one is £450 more than the other. How does that work ? But I know which one I'd buy.

I'm sure brant will be along in a minute to confirm that the Broken Road is just a copy of the Ti Pact that I designed but with some fancy dropouts.

Did bikes not look broadly the same for like a century? Can you claim IP on what is basically some angles?

I think you probably could if it was an exact copy. There's more to a bike than angles, tube shapes and profiles for tyre clearances, some brands have a 'look' which depends on subtle differences (e.g older Rocky Mountain frames had the seat stays above the top tube, GT triple triangle, BMC ermmmm triple triangle). And there's a cost saving in not having to prototype (why have several samples made, then more for CEN testing, if you could just copy a frame that already works and will be sure to pass first time).

Whether the frames are identical and whether you can patent angles and dimensions is one thing. The black and white images PX used as placeholders were Sonder's pics just coloured in as they had the Sonder logo and one had the wrong dropouts as the Titus has through axles. So beyond cheeky.

So the second time in a week that OnOne have been discovered using someone else's pictures?

It's starting to get deliberate...

Cant beat free advertising, alpkit didnt mind with the Jones alike bar so what comes around goes around

taxi25

Member

Same frame (essentially) built in the same factory, but one is £450 more than the other. How does that work ?

One of them had prototypes, design work, jig prep, sourcing and preorders of materials, CEN testing etc and the other one didn't.

Whether the frames are identical and whether you can patent angles and dimensions is one

and

I think you probably could if it was an exact copy. There’s more to a bike than angles, tube

IANAL alert... There are generally four ways to protect IP: patents, trademarks, copyrights, and trade secrets.

Although, if you are Specialized, I suppose there is a fifth way to protect your IP: lotsa lawyers.

I doubt that the Sonder or On One designs - a series of frame angles + tube lengths, could be patented, as there is no unique invention and a "design patent" would probably also be similarly difficult to prove uniqueness - I'm sure a quick scour of Alibaba would find many frames with similar enough design features. I guess maybe a case could be made for a trademark, if they were particularly unique, but otherwise it's just a variation of the double-diamond frame.

I've built prototypes for both companies, including all the bikes in that Outdoors Magic article. I know which of the 2 I would buy a bike from were I in the market, which I'm not. Paradoxically 7 of my bikes have frames sourced from one of these 2 but none bear any resemblance to a current model on their website. There's no love lost between the 2 of them for various reasons.

I know which of the 2 I would buy a bike from were I in the market.

Which one?!

I know you're not gonna answer this pistonbroke, but knowing which one you'd buy and why might be useful.

Is it just a case of one of them.are decent people and the others are shysters. Or is one of them making shit bikes and cutting corners, or ripping people off and trousering the money?!?

or ripping people off and trousering the money?!?

You can download the accounts for both companies online, I doubt either are making huge profits.

41 posts, 39 showing, I wonder what juicy goss has been deleted?

I had this frame built 6 years ago by Waltly titanium in China - I feel I've been ripped off by Sonder and On One! The notion that there's some sort of "intellectual property" theft going on here is a joke. If I was doing it again I'd go direct to Waltly, save a wedge of cash for starters

First they rip off the three little pigs and now this.  In the race to the bottom PX really are ahead of Daffyd Thomas😀

Three little pigs?

Are you all forgetting brant is a wizard?

Three little pigs

Reference to Suck! and a boo-hoo story one if them posted implying that OO/Brant purposefully ripped them off.

41 posts, 39 showing, I wonder what juicy goss has been deleted?

To be fair the forum does that all the time, it just gets confused and breaks stuff once a thread gets to 40 posts, so I very much doubt anything's been deleted.

I had this frame built 6 years ago by Waltly titanium in China

Goes off to browse the Walty store on Alibaba

Goes off to browse the Walty store on Alibaba

?

https://waltly.en.alibaba.com/product/60107130242-218697098/Long_Travel_Hardtail_29er_mountain_titanium_bike_frame.html?spm=a2700.icbuShop.41413.31.7f7532d50qGC1T

Main types of IP are patents, copyright, trade mark, registered design and unregistered design. Conceivably there could be some narrow design right covering an exact copy...so there MIGHT be an IP angle.

All the sonder owners must be crying 😅

So, is this good or bad publicity for On One?

Certainly seems a bit iffy for the professional reputation of the designer in question.

I’m not. Should I be?

https://twitter.com/marc_jowett/status/1179426374676824077?

I’m not crying either...quite happy with my signal ti. Great bike.

I think Lidl and Aldi are frequently in court for various IP reasons such as copyright, trademark or "passing off"...
http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/search/max-results=7?q=aldi

*hangs around "middle of Lidl" looking for cheap ti frames*

41 posts, 39 showing, I wonder what juicy goss has been deleted?

Nothing juicy just people being edgy, well offensive.

Weird. Brant is normally all over the PX/OO ‘publicity’ threads.

Don't go looking at Ribble's new MTB's. Same factories probably. Big deal.

So I ordered my "Mutsu" should be coming Saturday.

Maybe I am going to hell but I am planning on buying my bags from alpkit and some gear so that might make up for it...

Aren’t those Hebden Bridge Trouser Company trousers just copies of stuff you can buy on Cotton Traders?

Aren’t those Hebden Bridge Trouser Company trousers just copies of stuff you can buy on Cotton Traders?

*something about trousers having been around for a long time and you can't copyright a waist size*

(also, I may have got this wrong but I seem to remember one reason they don;t make in trouser town any more is that their original manufacturer started making and selling the original HebTroCo products so it may be that you can buy HebTroCo copies on Cotton Traders, not the other way round).

I think Lidl and Aldi are frequently in court for various IP reasons such as copyright, trademark or “passing off”…

That is because they use the same colours and fonts but just use a word close to the product they are copying.
I am not sure they would get into the same trouble for using a cardboard box or tin that is generally used and has nothing about it that differentiates if from previously used tins and boxes. Whereas if you copied Sonders logo it may be a different matter?

If I was doing it again I’d go direct to Waltly, save a wedge of cash for starters

I actual tried that with XCAD, they couldn't beat planet-x when I tried to spec a pompino with a few tweeks. There's scope to cut corners and undercut them with plain guage tubes etc but I suspect their proffit margin is of the same magnitude as the bulk order discounts.

I came across this comment under a slightly different context.

But what goes around, comes around. If you offload the manufacture of your top secret designs to nascent capitalist countries in search of cheap labour, what can you expect but to have your designs appropriated? Unfortunately, this process also extends to the smaller companies. All it takes is for some industrious individual in a far away country to order an item from them, and then hey presto, the design can be copied and not much can be done about it (unless you have the money to throw at international trade lawyers, and to my knowledge most smaller companies don’t).

Can I ask those who have got a Ti hard tail, are they worth it over steel/alu/carbon? I've always fancied trying one out. Either a 120-130mm 27.5 or 29er with a fairly slack head angle.

The only justification I need is that it's lighter than steel and looks really classy, anything else is a bonus! 🙂

So, is this good or bad publicity for On One?

Certainly seems a bit iffy for the professional reputation of the designer in question.

Storm in a tea cup. Someone made a bike frame and someone else made one which looks similar, exactly the same thing has been happening since the bicycle was invented. All the steel racing frames in the 30s-80s looked absolutely identical bar a minor tweak to the frame lugs.

The only justification I need is that it’s lighter than steel and looks really classy

There you have it.

Can I ask those who have got a Ti hard tail, are they worth it over steel/alu/carbon?

I had a Brant designed Shed Fire Ti Hardtail (just sold it). The main benefit is it looks lovely and you get to feel smug. Honestly, I'm not sure any rider could tell the difference between Steel, Al and Carbon in a blind test. Although carbon bikes do tend to be very light, which you do notice as soon as you stamp on the pedals.

Obviously Ti doesn't rust and some of the cheap Steel frames have very poor quality paint eg my original 456 was rusting within about a week of being built up and used outside.

Can I ask those who have got a Ti hard tail, are they worth it over steel/alu/carbon? I’ve always fancied trying one out. Either a 120-130mm 27.5 or 29er with a fairly slack head angle.

The only justification I need is that it’s lighter than steel and looks really classy, anything else is a bonus! 🙂

Millions of threads on here, all more or less the same - 'bike for life', 'they all crack', 'Mark Lynskey killed my kittens' etc. This is the most recent I think:

https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/titanium-hardtail-talk-me-out-of-it/

with different materials it's all down to how they have been designed on a one to one basis. No two will be the same so you cannot just generalize.

Honestly, I’m not sure any rider could tell the difference between Steel, Al and Carbon in a blind test.

I actually did this once and couldn't tell any difference at all. I crashed all of them.

Honestly, I’m not sure any rider could tell the difference between Steel, Al and Carbon in a blind test

Now that's a test I'd like to see. 3 identical frames, all painted Matt black, 1 ALU, 1 steel, 1 titanium. See out of a spectrum of 5 riders who could notice any difference

with different materials it’s all down to how they have been designed on a one to one basis.[b] No two will be the same [/b]so you cannot just generalize.

Quite an irony given the subject matter of the thread 😆

Storm in a tea cup. Someone made a bike frame and someone else made one which looks similar, exactly the same thing has been happening since the bicycle was invented. All the steel racing frames in the 30s-80s looked absolutely identical bar a minor tweak to the frame lugs.

This is kind-of valid, but hugely reductive - and you've ignored the point about freelance ethics & industry reputation.

and you’ve ignored the point about freelance ethics & industry reputation.

No, I just don't think there's an issue here at all to worry about. Obviously you're free to disagree. I doubt either company will suffer any loss from this. The frame design is not at all revolutionary nor has anything particularly orginal about it. So just another two frames in a world of look-alike frames, which ride like all the other frames. Commerical success will be down to branding, pricing, the package, service, logos etc. Alpkit / Sonder has it's fans as do On-One / PX. I like both and buy from both and coulnd't give a monkey's that two of their frames are similar / identical.

looks similar

Contender for understatement of the year?

No, I just don’t think there’s an issue here at all to worry about

Put yourself in the position of another bike company looking for a freelance designer.

Do you hire the one who did a design for another customer, then basically re-used it for a competitor - or one who didn't do that?