[Closed] Old vs new

Nope.

Been riding 26" wheel 100mm travel Dirt Jump/4X bikes with super short stays, stiff fork, low BBs 69/70deg. H/As and 40mm stems with high risers for over 2 decades as my all round (XC, DJ, DH, the E word) MTB.

Luckily Dirt Jumpers ride what works rather than what manufacturers want to sell

**** fashion. ride what you find fun.

Nope.
Been riding 26" wheel 100mm travel Dirt Jump/4X bikes with super short stays, stiff fork, low BBs 69/70deg. H/As and 40mm stems with high risers for over 2 decades as my all round (XC, DJ, DH, the E word) MTB.
Luckily Dirt Jumpers ride what works rather than what manufacturers want to sell
**** fashion. ride what you find fun.

The fashion/fad for dj bikes is still going then?

**** fashion. ride what you find fun.

It's not about fashion - my point was that what we find normal now would be awful 10 years ago, because we weren't used to it.

My point is what I ride daily was normal for me 20 years ago.

it's far from awful.

+1.

Totally depends what you were/are used to. My Trailstar from 2001 has a 55mm stem and 680mm bars. Every bike I've had since has had a similar setup. Head angles have got gradually slacker, stems shorter and bars wider by about a mm or five a year, but if I dig the old bike out for an occasional ride it doesn't feel THAT different to what I was riding 15 years ago.

Anyone want an exceptionally light and high quality 105mm Syntace F99 stem and 610mm Easton carbon bar?

Now all my MTBs are either 660 or 680. Although even then, I find the normal risers rather uncomfortable after I've been using the Fleegles on the Salsa, with their extra sweep. I've had to rotate the risers around to get maximum sweep, which is something I used to absolutely hate.

Just measured up my 2007 Patriot, wondering if it compares with a modern enduro bike.

It's a medium, and on the slack setting, which I've been running (if I've measured these right):

66 degree HA
73 degree SA
1190mm wheelbase
345mm BB height
605mm effective TT length

Compare with Specialized Enduro:

65.5 HA
74.7 SA
1160mm wheelbase
350mm BB height
584mm effective TT length

Quite surprised at how #enduro my old bike is. I thought it was short, but the medium Specialized is shorter. The HA on the newer bike is a lot steeper though, and that's something I thought was making my bike harder to climb with. Might move the saddle forwards.

I'm comparing them because of idle curiosity but also I want to figure out if there's something about the modern bike that makes it more suitable to wider bars and mine less suitable.

Also I think I might be able to get 27.5 wheels in there.

The HA on the newer bike is a lot steeper though, and that's something I thought was making my bike harder to climb with. Might move the saddle forwards.

Seat angle?

Don't forget that each degree on the seat angle is effectively 10mm on the effective top tube. ~2deg = 20mm = about the difference.

Sorry yes seat angle 🙂

Is that specialised considered long Lee and slack..? My bike fit not feel long even with a 60mm stem, it feels quite short.

What size is the bike Mol?

When I slapped a set of 170mm forks, a 40mm stem and some 780 bars on my '08 S-Works Enduro, the geometry instantly came in line with a lot of todays 'AM/enduro' bikes

Getting on my '97 Kona Lava Dome though and everything feels odd, even with 680mm bars

It's M, Rusty. I think I could probably have gone for a L tbh.

I do want to try a wide riser on it, just a question of when I get round to it. Although I do like it as it is.

Worth noting I've never ridden a modern enduro bike 🙂

Ah, the fabled Kona! I wondered what it looked like. Performance-wise, it would be interesting to see how different our riding is when our bikes are more similar.

I'll bring it out next time then SR. I'm curious to see what effect it has on my Strava times, being 6lbs lighter than my Salsa but also fully suspended. Should be a good deal quicker on those rough climbs. It's a very very fast bike.

I may even leave the tiny bars on for a laugh.

Just taken my 2008 Reign to Molini in Italy. Admittedly it's got a longer fork, shorter stem and wider bars than it was specced with when new but I made those changes as soon as I bought it, eight years ago. Static head angle is about 67 with a 160 fork and it still does the business. The front wheel does look like it's off a shopping trolley though, after riding 29 and 29+ pretty much full time for the last few years.

I wonder if it's worth larger wheels? Or if it'll cause trouble?

There's so much clearance on the bike that I suspect it's also possible to run 26x3.0 Knards, possibly on my existing rims. Which could be an indecent amount of fun!

Pretty much relegated to pub duties now

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I wonder if it's worth larger wheels? Or if it'll cause trouble?

The BB height is already in a nice place but if you run a lot of sag then 27.5 wheels could be good.

I may even leave the tiny bars on for a laugh.

I wouldn't, much more fun with the wider bars and shorter stem. As far as your Strava times go I'd say you'll be faster over everything apart from the roughest downhills, then the Patriot wins. Couldn't see the rigid 29er being fastest apart from the smoothest trails.

Always had trouble getting the front suspension (all 80mm of it) right on that Kona. Either comfy but too wallowy or rough. Possibly because I was too far over the front.

if you run a lot of sag then 27.5 wheels could be good

Thinking I could pick up some wheels on classifieds then pass them on again if I don't like it.

Apart from the gate of a GT Outpost I had in 1994 I've always had small framed hardtails with short stems and 1x gearing (late 90s dual slalom fashion victim 😆 I'd love an Orange Ms Isle) - bars have got wider, which is a good thing, forks are loads better and disc brakes are more affordable now but everything else is [i]kind[/i] of similar. Maybe the front end on my bike is a little bit longer than on my old bikes and I'd get on one of my old bikes and absolutely hate it cos it was so cramped!

660mm bars are your "wide" ones??? WOW, party like it's 2009 dude!! 😆

These bikes are all 2007s!

That green Kona still looks very "right". Ahead of its time.

We dug out all our bikes from the early-mid 90's and had a Retro-enduro day a few weeks ago. A combination of DH, climbs, 'Junior Kick-start' style trials, average time trials and a mini duel slalom tournament, as well as spot points awarded for age of bike (and being originally specced), condition, best mechanical, longest skid and best use of toe clips.

Thoroughly recommend it for a laugh and some great bikes were dug out including a mint Orange X2 with original (and flawlessly working) Stratos rear shock.

Tom KP

That green Kona still looks very "right". Ahead of its time.

This is how it started life in 1997...

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I don't think it looks 'right' with those bombers on.

I don't think it looks 'right' with those bombers on.

I'm more inclined to agree with you - they mess the handling up a bit too - designed round 80mm forks and they (Manitou X-Vert Supers) are 105mm IIRC. It's become a bit of a frankenbike over the years - regret selling the P2's some years ago

My go to mtb is a 95 cinder cone, when I say go to I mean it's my only mtb other than. A fat bike. It still feels ace tho I would probably like bars a bit wider as they are only about 580 iirc
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660mm bars on the Kona now, bout to take it for its first actual ride in about 5 years.

Got me thinking about changing the frame and forks now....

Right, just been out on the Kona, got some interesting results.

1) Feels bloody weird to ride. Wheels not only seem tiny but also really close together, like riding some sort of weird mini clown bike. Not an issue on the Patriot, my other 26er, cos the front wheel is so far away.

2) Still very nimble on the descents until it's twisty, then having the front wheel underneath my shoulders makes it a bit tuck-undery.

3) In spite of point 2, got some second best times on some descents. It's still quick.

4) Forgotten how much I enjoy short travel FS - 80mm front 63mm rear. It's enough to smooth it out a lot, but still feels like a solid pedalling platform.

5) Smashed my PR on the second of my benchmark climbs (6.15 vs 7.02), it starts of pretty steep but solid stony ground then turns to a shallow slog along a forest edge. Wasn't even trying all that hard.

6) The biggest shock however was the first benchmark climb, which is loose and rocky. 15s off my PR of 5.15 despite not being particularly in the zone and not trying as hard - that would be a good result, except that it took me three attempts to clean the first bit! Far far more difficult getting up the loose rocky steep bits, despite the FS that I thought would make it easier.

And I think it's because of the wheels. Not the diameter in itself, but the rotating mass. The 29er wheels are over 1800g with 750g tyres on; the 26 are sub-1400g with 450g tyres. Whilst this makes it incredibly quick to accelerate, with so little angular momentum rocks seemed to bring me to a halt pretty quickly, resulting in big heaves on the pedals just to keep going.

Definitely 29er next time for racing. It was just too much effort keeping moving on the loose rocky stuff.