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I've tried long low and slack and they are terrific for DH or trail centres but that's probably only 15% of my riding.
I want a HT without a super slack head angle, doesn't need a 35mm stem and doesn't pedal like the BB is behind the saddle as the seat tube is so steep.
I also don't want a XC race machine with a short head tube to get "aero"
Short of buying a 90s MTB or putting a flat bar on my gravel bike is there anything in today's HT market that fits the bill? Something that'll take 120mm suspension fork or a rigid fork?
I've mentioned it a fair few time in various threads and feel I must point out I have no affiliations with Planet X or anything in the biking world. 😉
Their Whippet frame is IMO exactly what your looking for. I made similar references to the ride characteristics when I had it.
However, when I'd finished with it, the build was very close to my main HT, a SC Carbon Chameleon, so that could also be looked at too. The latest one has slightly different geometry so perhaps one from a few years ago may be more suitable.
Other than that, I'd scope out something with similar geometry to the Whippet if you fancy a better name etc.
will a steeper head angle be any better for your normal riding?
plenty of newish trail hardtails around that aren't "modern" geometry. canyon grand canyon? 68deg head angle, 74 seat angle seems pretty "classic", 120mm fork
Sherpa?
will a steeper head angle be any better for your normal riding?
This +1, although I'd still say 120mm and 68deg is still pretty steep.
I think slack-ish but with a mid length (65-80mm) stem actually works really well and likely to be the future of bikes designed for just being fastest in the real world.
BMC Twostroke
Cannondale Synapse HT
Both 100mm XC race bikes, but with trail bike head angles and sensibly long stems.
Britango mught suit? 74.5 SA? (Edit - sorry, seems they aim it at a 140 fork now, was 120 before)
I know it’s very stw to immediately suggest something you’ve discounted, but (once I got used to the slightly different feel) my current gen Solaris with xc tyres and a light build is a lot of fun on the same xc trails that have been around for years, comfy for a long day out and is still a lot more capable when the going gets steep.
If you’ve tried a ‘light build’ slacker bike and didn’t like it, fair enough, but if you haven’t I’d get a go on one before discounting. If not, something second hand?
I use a sherpa exactly for this sort of riding. Bit heavy but can ride all day.
Fairlight Holt
Sonder Broken Road
Sonder Frontier
Specialized Chisel?
Sonder Frontier or Dial?
Stanton Sherpa, it’s not LLS. Or if you can live with the compromises of the 27.2 seatpost and T47 bb, Fairlight Holt, it’s marketed as Unashamedly XC.
You are describing my Nail Trail.
120mm fork, 68*/74* angles, moderate reach, low BB, 12kg weight.
I’ll add my voice to those recommending a Sherpa. I’m on a mark 1 and although the geometry has been updated for mark 3 it’s still more conservative than most ‘trail’ hardtails. I run 100mm SIDs on mine which keeps the handling sharp and pretty ‘XC’
I've got a Jones Spaceframe I'm looking to sell? Steel, black, 135mm hubs front and rear, from the one-size-fits-all era. Thomson, Hope on Crest, CK headset, SRAM 10 speed, carbon cranks...
Spot on for the riding you describe.
Secondhand Voodoo Bizango or Bokor if you want bolt through. 74 seat angle, 67 head angle.
Sonder Frontier - 68deg head angle, 73deg seat angle and designed around 100mm forks.
Sonder are very helpful and will tell you if a 120mm fork will work with the frame.
As mentioned above, the Whippet is a good shout. Selling mine if you want an XL? 😉
I just bought a Trek Procaliber. 73 seat angle. Nice and light but not silly. rated for a 120 fork though they come with 100 unless you get frame only. Just got it and done about 100km so far - initial reaction is it was just what I was looking for i.e more than a gravel bike but not a trail centre sled. I do mainly XC sportif and SDW etc.
Another vote for the Sherpa. Bought to replace a LLS Whyte 905. It's a bit Porky at current build with Hope Fortus wheels and Cushcore, But I'd be willing to bet with XC wheels/Tyres it'd be a riot.
I really like the look of the Cannondale Scalpel HT. XC race bike with 66-67 deg HTA. It's not cheap though and I wish they made an Al version.
I’ve got a Jones Spaceframe I’m looking to sell? Steel, black, 135mm hubs front and rear, from the one-size-fits-all era. Thomson, Hope on Crest, CK headset, SRAM 10 speed, carbon cranks…
Spot on for the riding you describe.
They really are, particularly those gen 1 geometry models, aside from the rigid-specific bit if you want a sus fork. I fitted some Terreno 2.25" semi-slick XC race tyres to my Jones diamond frame at the weekend, makes a very quick XC bike as well as a good back lanes tourer. Way more fun + capable than a gravel bike off-road and only slower on long road rides due to lacking the longer lower drops position.
I have a Santa Cruz carbon chameleon 120mm fork 29” wheels for exactly that. Very old school but very capable too.
Don't be afraid of a modern XC race hardtail. I know the attitude goes against whatever the perceived current conventional wisdom is supposed to be - but ignore all that stuff just as some of us have been doing all our riding lives, and just get a bike best suited to the riding you're doing the most of. I run an older version of the Scaplel Ht mentioned above (Flash 29er), it probably has a 69 deg head angle ( I don't really care what the numbers are, it handles superbly). It has a 100mm stem which supposedly should be unridable, but it's not - in fact it's the best riding bike I've ever owned. Also not a fan of low front ends but getting a good position has been a non-issue as 29er fronts tend to be relatively high, the racers tend to run steeply negative rise stem to get low. Riding position and seat angle are spot on for distance and climbing. Current Cannondale could be worth a try, or my mate has an SP Epic carbon hardtail which he similarly rates, and we're both old-skool early 90's xc racer types. I wouldn't go back to riding a 90's version of that type of bike even if you payed me...but equally have no interest in some long low slacked out barge for a hardtail. The middle ground is surprisingly good.
I picked up a Specialized Chisel 2 weeks ago and have been loving it. Riding it with the stock 100mm fork though it is rated to 110mm.
I really like the look of the Cannondale Scalpel HT
I liked the look of it so much that I bought one. In many ways it's the best bike I've ever had. It's much more capable than the gravel bike off road and not much slower on gravel or roads. Obviously it climbs really well, but on singletrack it's an absolute weapon, it was so much fun on the Mayhem course. All that, and it looks absolutely gorgeous.
Boardman MHT8.9.
Haven't you already got a Swift with a rigid fork?
Got a whippet for this purpose to replace a stolen boardman mht8.9. Yari fork on the front, it's lightweight and fast enough in the singletrack. Love it. Geometry is not lls but in between that and old xc. Honestly a great wee bike.
Thanks for all the ideas, to the person suggesting a Jones, I'm not that weird! 😉
I've had a Solaris, just before they went "max" and didn't get on with it at all
Haven’t you already got a Swift with a rigid fork?
Yep but that's for singlespeed and won't take a tapered sus fork. The Geom on that with an 75mm stem is perfect
Yep but that’s for singlespeed and won’t take a tapered sus fork. The Geom on that with an 75mm stem is perfect
Lee Cooper could braze you a geared taper HT version from Reynolds CrMo for not a lot of £.
Whyte hardtail? Not outrageous angles?
Or maybe a stanton?
Yep but that’s for singlespeed and won’t take a tapered sus fork. The Geom on that with an 75mm stem is perfect
Yup, I can understand that.
Pegasus is what you need then ;o)
Yup, I can understand that.
Pegasus is what you need then ;o)
Or a second hand Rooster?!
Pegasus is what you need then
Had a MK1 (number 10 in fact) sold it on
Marin Team Marin
My daughter's Whyte 603 is mint, I'd be riding it all over if it were my size. 67 degree HA IIRC
I bought a Giant Fathom last year when looking for similar
I've had similar thoughts after building up a new scandal a while ago and not liking it. Still prefer slack-ish, not too long, reasonably low feel. That seems to cover all my bases, and remains fun at trail centres and mountains. Sherpa and Fairlight Holt seem to hit the sweet spots, though the Holt is understandably v. expensive.
Ended up settling on a Kona Unit X frame that i've built up fairly light, 68 HA, 75 SA, which seems steep for pedalling, but it doesn't feel it. Doesn't need a silly short stem. I've kept mine rigid because I prefer that, but it'll take a 100mm fork. Or why not go semi-custom and get something nice from Curtis or similar?
Another vote for the Whippet here - loving mine with the rigid fork but also have a 120mm to go on if needed. Honestly, they're great.
I've got a 21" Ti Sherpa frame, Gen 3, never ridden, that needs a good home. Price would be sensible so please PM if interested.
You could put a flat bar on the new Cotic Cascade. Saw photo of one on their FB page, looked good.
I use a Pivot Les for pretty much exactly what you describe. It's not the cheapest but it is awesome.
I’ve got a 21″ Ti Sherpa frame, Gen 3, never ridden, that needs a good home. Price would be sensible so please PM if interested
One size too big unfortunately
Oh well. I tried. I might have to grit my teeth and put up with Ebay/FB idiocy then.
I’ve had similar thoughts after building up a new scandal a while ago and not liking it. Still prefer slack-ish, not too long, reasonably low feel.
I've a Scandal, use it whenever the gravel bike is not enough and my Enduro-based FS is too much.
It works well for most things, from lunchtime 10 miles/1000ft loops from home to bigger 50 milers and ever as a bikepacking bike (did the Badger Divide on it). Having the right tyres for the route/conditions are key, so run a couple of wheelsets.
No idea about new/old school, lls or angles but I really like my Whippet
Scandal fits the bill...
DrP
This is the kind of bike I’m circling back to now, so watching this thread with interest. My only mtb is an original Scandal 26 which I’ve been clinging on to. In many ways it’s perfect but getting a bit tired now about 10-15 yrs abuse.
I’ve done the gravel thing and that suits most of my local area, but in all honesty not much better than the type of bike op is talking about for the riding I do.
anyone got a kona honzo , that seems to fit the description
Some bike packing bikes are more this way. No suspension but some of the crust bikes are basically updated old school xc mtbs.
I have a Santa Cruz carbon chameleon 120mm fork 29” wheels for exactly that. Very old school but very capable too.
I had same problem when i moved to East Anglia, the slack bikes are great for the "winch up and descend" type of riding, but not if you're riding is fairly flat and weaving in and out of trees.
I looked at loads of frames and ended up with a 2016 Santa Cruz Highball, been great to ride and more traditional geometry
Scandal fits the bill…
DrP
Maybe, although unless you can get a good deal on a frame only the stock build is a bit heavy for that.
Not that knocking 5lb off it would make it less gnarr, it would just double the price to add carbon wheels and SID's. Would make an interesting experiment though.
Not that knocking 5lb off it would make it less gnarr, it would just double the price to add carbon wheels and SID’s. Would make an interesting experiment though.
I built up a current generation Scandal frame with carbon wheels, and 120mm SIDs, was ace. It was replaced with a full sun (Epic Evo) but now have a Chisel frame, which is perfect for local riding (Somerset).
Mines still shod with the original Vittoria Goma's which can't be great for speed, I just know if I take them off it'll rain though, not a bad thing at the moment perhaps!
How about a Curtis - XC7 I think it is. 27.5 wheels, 68HT angle, 74 seat tube angle. £1300 for the frame, though!
I'd try and get a ride on a modern XC bike just in case. Scott Scale, Canyon Grand Canyon or a BMC would probably fit the bill. I don't think you need anything very obscure or niche