[Closed] Observations of cyclists in London from a migrant who came for a weeks holiday

In Cardiff, by contrast, we're a bunch of saints. 😀

I think the problem here is that at the moment cycling is seen as a sport rather than a mode of transport, with behaviour to suit.

Strangely I thought cycling in London last month was much better than riding in Edinburgh, many more cyclists, drivers more used to cyclists, considerably more cycle lane infrastructure. Edinburgh feels like death race 2000 in comparison.

Riding in London is WAY more civilised than it used to be. Drivers are far more considerate, know how to act around bikes; and the infrastructure is much better. I feel far safer riding round London than I do around Sheffield.

There are times/places when the sheer number of bikes gets a little overwhelming though. The Tour d'Embankment at 6pm on a weekday being a classic example...

Are we also to blame for cycle (ha!) of spiralling negativity around cycling/cyclists in UK?

Just ****ing stop it please.

There are times/places when the sheer number of bikes gets a little overwhelming though. The Tour d'Embankment at 6pm on a weekday being a classic example...

*waves*

I don't like it, but it is the quickest/safest route to South West London.

I'll be leaving a little earlier today - which makes a hell of a difference...

my observation of cycling in central Leeds, is that most, not all lycra clad (proper cyclists ;o)) are a law un to themselves.
most folk riding cheaper bikes, usually wearing a reflective tabard, with a rucksack (blokes riding to work) seem to adhere to road laws.

to clarify that, most lycra clad riders are tossers.

my observation of cycling in central Leeds, is that most, not all lycra clad (proper cyclists ;o)) are a law un to themselves.
most folk riding cheaper bikes, usually wearing a reflective tabard, with a rucksack (blokes riding to work) seem to adhere to road laws.

to clarify that, most lycra clad riders are tossers.

Are we also to blame for cycle (ha!) of spiralling negativity around cycling/cyclists in UK?

We?

You and me?

I dunno, do you ride like an asshole? If you don't, you're not, and I'm pretty sure I don't so I'm not.

So, no, we're not to blame.

Anyway, London is a fairly unique melting pot. A huge number of people, with every piece of infrastructure bursting at the seams. The tube is overcrowded, the roads are bunged up, the pavements are rammed. The fastest—not just the most convenient but the fastest—way to get around is by bike and thus it attracts people who wants to go fast; in the centre there are lots of jobs for competitive, determined types of people; and wherever you go you're still going to have to do some form of battle with motorised traffic.

All of this means that much of the cycle traffic in central London is carrying people who are in a rush and who like spending their plentiful cash on fast bikes and gear. Much of it is still the habitat of the Mamil, even though it's got a *lot* better thanks to the new infrastructure.

I get annoyed by lots of people on bikes in London being in far too much of a hurry to have enough regard for others around them, but it's important to remember that a lot of these people are just symptoms of what is still a largely hostile environment. It's just that in London there's vastly more of them than anywhere else.

PS: flouting, not flaunting. Quite different 😉

to clarify that, most lycra clad riders are tossers.

Interestingly, my experience in Dundee is the exact opposite.

*coughconfirmationbiascough*

And my experience in Greater Manchester is that drivers of motor vehicles have the worst attitude, as well as being the most dangerous.

In Cardiff, by contrast, we're a bunch of saints.

Lol! Where about's?

Never cycled in London, but Cardiff is scary enough at times. Used to ride around Brighton (7 years) and never had an accident, first year of commuting in Cardiff and I had 2 collisions. Newport road is a dangerous place.

I love cycling in London 😀

Beats getting public transport anyday!

to clarify that, most lycra clad riders are tossers.

Now, where does that leave us? 😐

My feeling from commuting in Leeds is that it's nothing like what the media suggests. Yes, there are inattentive drivers and there are red light jumping cyclists but I also get drivers who give enough room and give way to me to balance it out, and I rarely see any actual aggression. Maybe because it's because I'm female (and visibly so - long ponytail and a quite often a hi viz pink gilet) or maybe it's just not like London.

[I wear lycra and obey red lights. I may have crashed into a pedestrian or two in my time, but the policeman who witnessed it agreed it wasn't my fault]

Most people who make vast and daft generalisations are tossers.

Now, where does that leave us?

now in know that I am a tosser, but that does not alter my judgement on lycra clad cyclists in Leeds

You can't really compare Basel to London. It's a mid-sized town; London is one of the world's biggest cities.

I've found London drivers to be pretty good. The cyclists themselves are far worse generally, at least in rush hour. But it's all about the route you take. Certain roads and hotspots are bad, others are extremely pleasant.

Newport road is a dangerous place.

I'd imagine it is at rush hour, that's why I go out of my way to avoid it.

Cardiff is pretty relaxed outside of a few spots, and even then only at rush hour.

There's something about Britain generally with transport, or at least in the south east, which is very aggressive. Driven in France and USA many times and it's positively relaxed by comparison (especially Rockies and west coast USA). Haven't cycled on roads outside UK (not counting minor bit in Morzine to get to/from trails), but generally observed it seems to be chilled riding about too.

But then, I imagine Paris or New York could be somewhat more chaotic.

On the driving though, in US I sometimes wonder if it's wide roads, sloppy suspension cars and automatic gears that makes people less aggressive. I find when I get back in my car at home from a foreign trip, I'm suddenly in aggression mode, have to fight my way through traffic and tendency to floor it. US driving in particular and just seem to cruise along at pootle speed with no fuss.

I have no choice but to use Newport Road bit only heading west, no chance of me using it going east 😯

Rest of Cardiff isn't too bad, apart from matchdays.

I sat outside a pub in Euston around 7pm a couple of weeks ago ad was amazed at how many cyclists didn't bother with lights or reflectives. One chap in particular stood out (or didn't as the case may be). Black bike, black and dark camo clothing, no lights, no reflectives and dashing up the inside of traffic. I turned to the chap who I was drinking with (a non-cyclist) and said "I can see why cyclists are hated". Sheer suicidal madness.

"I can understand why a great deal of non-cyclist public opinion is against us"

Couple of things:

1) there isn't, and never will be, an "us";

2) please just go away.

the biggest problem with commuting by bike in London is that it's so much fun, and far too tempting to race other cyclists and wind the drivers up who are stuck in traffic.

the biggest problem with commuting by bike in London is that it's so much fun, and far too tempting to race other cyclists and wind the drivers up who are stuck in traffic.

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12575770

I turned to the chap who I was drinking with (a non-cyclist) and said "I can see why cyclists are hated".

Seriously? 🙄

jimdubleyou

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12575770

I hate that thread.

I agree with everything the OP says apart from the bit about the drivers- I actually find them to be fine (been cycling in London for about 13 years now), albeit a very different style to outside of London. You do have to accept that everyone is in a rush, and people are used to having to push their way out of a junction but once you get used to it it actually works ok (and, despite how it looks at first sight, the drivers are actually pretty law abiding!) The cyclists on the other hand, can be a little anarchic (to say the least!). Although I think it should also be said that some do stop at lights etc.

On the driving though, in US I sometimes wonder if it's wide roads, sloppy suspension cars and automatic gears that makes people less aggressive.

That's because no-one's concentrating or giving a shit about what they or anyone else is doing, generally.

I have no choice but to use Newport Road bit only heading west, no chance of me using it going east

Surely you only need a really short section?

My cycle commute seems to lack inconsiderate drivers and tossers in Lycra. I offer this in evidence:

[img] http://www.ramblers.org.uk/LBSMediaItem.ashx?id=6aeae6fb-d4e7-45e3-a689-26123d59e9e1 [/img]

To be fair, in Basel all road users are kept in check by the bloody trams. Cars get heavily fined or cleaved into 2 if not careful, and cyclists have to be so bloody careful of tram tracks it negates a great deal of bell-endery. Most everyone rides a bike too, so driving in general very respectful. I know Amsterdam is very different, but as we know is a fabulous example of a bike/car system that works/is safe/avoids conflict in a big busy city.

Matt - nice 🙂

On my OP - we/us = cyclists as a generic identifiable community whether we like it or not. They = drivers. My perception in the UK was that ‘they’ were the problem. True, but ‘we’ seem just as culpable.

Also, I am now very confused about flount/flaunt 😆

I did a day trip to London yesterday. It included a rush hour journey on a Boris bike from Waterloo to Euston. It was ace. Car drivers seemed to behave like thinking human beings. Other cyclists were not like Manchester, they were mostly riding at a kind of restful pace, watching out for each other, patient, indeed. Everyone seemed patient. Not like my regular Manchester commute either where it feels a bit more dog eat dog. Loved London cycling.

Safe enough going west to use the bus lane between TGI Fridays and Clifton Street, much better than the other option of going via the roundabout joining East Tyndall St and Ocean Way. I come back that way though as I'm going with rather than against the flow of traffic then.

The other option is to go past Morrison's, come out on Ipswich way then go up Colchester Avenue then if you are going to town come back down through Roath, onto Albany Road, through StudentLand, across City Rd and into town that way.

Newport road is terrible though, and Cardiff badly needs a cycle superhighway to go along the railway line behind all the retail units to get into town.

We won't get it as we have the cycle lane on the pavement, the one that weaves through all the bus stops and bins and broken glass...

I'm usually heading Penarth direction though so going up via Roath etc, is the long way.

Much prefer battling my way through London on two wheels than pootling through Munich or Berlin and having to adhere to the rules...

Amsterdam, London, Paris, New York. In that order.

Cyclists have as much collective responsibility as men: therefore Weinstein is your fault.

Country yokels are always going to fail to understand a big city

I enjoy cycling in London* but I know my way around,not sure if I'd enjoy an unfamiliar British city.The fairly recent concept of 20 mph zones near me seem to have sunk in to the majority of drivers - less folk want to over take me when they're in one. Someone does still try to kill you on nearly every ride though. 🙂
*I'd much prefer a lovely off road jaunt any day.

There are a lot of dicks about in the UK, some drive cars, a lot drive taxis, some ride bicycles. Higher population density means more dicks, that's just the way it is.

Having ridden round New York a fair bit lately, I was impressed by the infrastructure and attitude of the drivers towards cyclists. It's still hectic, but you're viewed correctly as a fellow road user there.

Unlike here in the UK.

Are we also to blame for cycle (ha!) of spiralling negativity around cycling/cyclists in UK?

No, of course not.

I've commuted by bike for over 20 years (including Edinburgh) and have not experienced this "cyclist mayhem" you are describing. Forget about my anecdotal evidence, though, the actual traffic statistics demonstrate that cyclists are not causing a huge problem on our roads.

Motorists in the UK kill 4 or 5 people every day, and are responsible for 98% of pedestrian death and injury. If you are worried about bad behaviour by road users, that would seem like the obvious place to start...

The worst areas of Paris at rush hour make all parts of London look orderly and civilised. Pedestrians, cyclists, cars, taxis and buses all trying to occupy the same bits of Tarmac. There's beauty in the chaos.

I cycle regularly in Bristol - depending on my mood I either do the 4.5 mile road route or the 8.5 mile cycle track route (Bristol to Bath track).

On the road I think drivers are quite careless around cyclists and far to keen to squeeze past in inappropriate places / when trafic is coming the other way. I'm not a slow cyclist (probably average between 18 and 20mph on the flat) and yet you can still feel cars hovering dangerously close on your shoulder sometimes.

This year I've had to slam brakes on / serve at least 3 times to avoid accidents with cars who eithe rhavent seen me, or have seen me and think I'll just have to avoid them.

I'm pretty visible in a bright blue coat and run lights front and back. Now got 3 lights on the back and one on the front. I'm about to add a little blinker to the front to go alongside the regular solid light.

Even the cycle track now is getting quite hectic - it's like a race track for lycra'd up roadies. I go quite quick in the quiet bits, but when it gets busy I slow down and don't take any chances overtaking. Some people don't take his approach and swerve in and out causing other people to have to take evasive action. I've seen paramedics twice so far in the last couple of months tending to people involved in crashes.

You just get idiots on bikes and in cars these days. Roads / cycle tracks and getting busier, people have less patience and are getting more aggressive. Bound lead to problems.

I have a Dutch friend visiting at the moment. After many years she has just moved out of Amsterdam as she is fed up of all the cyclists.

Yes, she cycles too.

🙂

London's fine for cycling, I got a Boris bike from Paddington to Oxford street for a while, I could only conclude that the traffic is so bad that actually it means the streets off the main roads are actually quite quiet.

Only place that I genuinely feared for my life was Hyde Park corner, drivers seemed to treat it as a go-kart track.

curto80 - Member
1) there isn't, and never will be, an "us";

While that may be the case unfortunately to some motorists cyclists as a group are perceived as a "them".

I commute in Edinburgh and while it isn't perfect it is generally fine. Unlike Senor J's experience in London, alarming moments are once a week or less frequent, not once per ride. When I visited London in 2010 the roads all seemed pretty alarming. But that's all subjective.

Only place that I genuinely feared for my life was Hyde Park corner, drivers seemed to treat it as a go-kart track.

That's why you don't ride around it, you take the cycle path through the middle. Far easier.

...whereas I really enjoy Hyde Park corner... It's ever changing singletrack!

Usually coming from Piccadilly and heading for Belgrave Square, so the "through the middle" option doesn't really work.

That's why you don't ride around it, you take the cycle path through the middle. Far easier.

Manchester is a city in dire need of cycling infrastructure - great that we have ChrisB fighting our corner but whether he has the cash to make it happen and the traffic design authority to spend in the right way remains to be seen

the behaviour change in motorists needs to happen nationally, starting with the change in the road legislation that was started in 2014 but stalled...

...whereas I really enjoy Hyde Park corner... It's ever changing singletrack!

+1

I use it in the other direction from Belgrave Sq to Constitution hill, you just have to be brave (or stupid) enough to use the same lanes a car would. Out to the inside lane, 2nd lane from the inside around the top, 3rd lane at the Piccadilly junction, drift left for constitution Hill. It helps if you can sprint a bit!

Trafalgar Sq is an absolutely hateful place. Nothing but aggro at half 5 in the morning entering from the Strand going to the Mall, and same again going home from the Mall to Northumberland Ave.
I've started using Lambeth Bridge, St Georges Cross, Southwark Bridge to travel west to east now as there's less conflict.

Manchester is a city in dire need of cycling infrastructure - great that we have ChrisB fighting our corner but whether he has the cash to make it happen and the traffic design authority to spend in the right way remains to be seen

He was talking about his job at a Cycling UK event I was at last weekend, he suggested budget negotiations are in progress and will be revealed soon.

It does sound like he's gone into it with his eyes open and that he's got Andy Burnham's ear.

And they must want to make it work or they wouldn't have appointed someone with such a platform.

Trafalgar Sq is an absolutely hateful place.

agreed, I actually walk up a short alleyway just to avoid it.