[Closed] Observation on price of a new Orange.......

orange bikes have always been vastly overpriced.
now with the prestige 'made in yorkshire' tags on the box welded stuff, they are just taking the pi55.

Isn't the p7 made in taiwan tho? Or is that the crush? Either way it was 1100 when I looked at one in 2009. 1900 is a joke, has it a bb made of pure gold?

Like that guy on here the other day who posted a pic of his build sheet. Can't believe people pay that money for an Orange.

Even the bottom bracket upgrade to Hope is 60 quid.Is that above the base price of the bike ? because if it is and you are paying extra that makes it about 90 quid

I wouldnt say Orange bikes have always been overpriced. I'm onto my 3rd P7 but I wouldnt buy another at current prices. For the price of a P7 frame I could something like a Blue pig and forks (or brakes).

😯

eh?

keep taking the drugs

Tech specs? Few bits of steel welded together with a jig. Same as in 09.

kaesae - Member

I can't really give a comparison without knowing technical spec for both years and also 2009, in relation to how much other companies bikes have increased in price.

There simply isn't enough data based on what you have said and the information you have provided to justify an informed and educated opinion on the matter.

There is however sufficient info to create an arguments, my gues is that you will get 6 posters all in.

Good point though, you have varified and in my opinion proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt that Orange make mountain bikes.

I've re evaluated my view point based on opinionism, 24 posters at most!

🙄

Looking at how much has groupsets and forks have went up since last year, i'm not surprised.

Fox Floats - £400
Hope wheels - £250
SLX cranks - £100
Rear XT Front slx mech - £80
SLX Shifters - £60
Elixir 5 brakes - £200
Good Maxxis tyres - £50
Cassette and chain - £40
Finishing kit - £60
Headset £20
Frame - £500

£1760 Costs £1800 off orange

Doesn't seem massively unreasonable, Would cost more building it up yourself i reckon. And if the frame is hand welded in halifax you're gonna be paying a premium, but then it isn't being welded by someone getting payed an unfair wage in bad conditions.

(all prices rough guesses and i know they'd get them much much cheaper, but you wouldnt)

P7 is Taiwanese

overpriced English/Taiwanese tat

I thought it had a handmade in halifax badge?

Maybe the badge is

Frame - £500

And, love it or loathe it, I've just bought a carbon 456 with a headset and seatpost for £101 less than that.

£500 for an off the peg steel frame is crackers, no matter what it says on the downtube.

Aye well, it'll be Halfords next time after all, but not for paint.....
It'll be the whole bike I'm after!

Didnae wish to be starting any arguments, and thanks to spock for giving a components pricing breakdown - it does put things into perspective.

My next Orange purchase will be limited to a T-shirt, but not in Kermit green.

And the R8 frame is 600 ,only overpriced by about 200 quid

Maybe the badge is

+1 😉

the oranges are over priced until you start with the alpine and the 5 ect also oranges keep there value better but dont hold me to that 🙄

the prices spock quoted are price we pay to buy.
i thing orange will get things just a little bit cheaper.......not much cheaper tho........ 🙄

Do Taiwanese bike workers get paid an unfair wage and work in bad conditions? Certainly the photos of Taiwanese bike factories I've seen recently look fine. Not sure about wages but I had a conversation with someone in the bike industry and he said the image we have of coolies slaving away in tin shack factories is out of date and that a wage of $20000 is not uncommon. Not sure why you can build steel framed bikes in Italy for £500 but the idea of doing the same in the Uk is deemed impossible.

STW dont half plug them in the mag of late.... 😉

That price list is retail isn't it? Presumably orange pay a lot less than that. One of the main reasons you buy a ready made bike is because it's cheaper than the retail price of the bits. The orange isn't even that! They make the finish kit themselves as well, so 60 is way too high. 500 quid for the frame is ridiculous as well.

Rip off pure and simple. However fools are easily parted etc

Orange are still a tiny company so will struggle to get the component prices down compared to some of their competition, although they will be quite a bit lower than the above prices. The also now have a reasonable overhead to provide service and sales backup to a huge chunk of the world they now sell bikes in.

Probably better than being sold in someone elses equivalent of halfords.

off to look at those p7 specs as the price sounds a bit silly, I have seen a pure7 somewhere which is a cut price version/excuse to bump to price of the normal one.

if the frame price is correct, then a blue pig has got to be the bargain of the century (steel frame wise).

I don't think £500 is too much for a nice steel frame - my Ala Carte is that much and it's well worth it - beautifully welded, excellent dropouts, nice tube profiles and lovely Japanese steel.

Given the price rises in steel compared to alu in recent years I'm not hugely surprised. Back in the day an Sworks hardtail frame was £699 for years - so £500 isn't too bad for a top end steel bike.

GB

Well some people are not ready to pay premium for something made in the UK. Fair enough. However, what would happen when your boss will tell you that due to the lesser amount of people buying the good you produce, you'll be made redundant by the ned of the week?
Don't believe stoner's crap. What goes around comes around. The habit we have and the way we shop/consume is what keeps our jobs going. Yes you are paying a little extra, but then this little extra is what keeps your jobs afloat too.

I have never understood why most people on here would buy something like a santa cruz over an orange. The way I look at it, both are single pivot bike and they probably have a very similar geometry. The only difference is one brand communicate on the "American dream" and the other not. I am not sure if that is very relevant to the bike. Now I may be stupid but I don't buy my bike for pictures of them in the shiny pages in bike mags. I buy them for the ride. And lets face it. A uk made bike is going to ride so much better in the UK than a Californian bike. That is just my 2p.

gee, a salsa al la carte is worlds away from the p7.
the p7 is standard gas pipe, like a on one or a blue pig.

But in taiwan do you get à national health service, pension, environmental regulation, paus holiday.... I know where i would rather live and work. Makes things more expensive to produce though. Though the p7 frame is not uk produced it is à uk company. Stw goes for cheapness at any cost shocker. If you are worried aboutcost buy stuff secondhand.

Is it just boggo steel? Didn't realise that. So is it UK welded or not? The Salsa is Taiwanese. Plus I imagine Orange don't sell as many?

the p7 is standard gas pipe, like a on one or a blue pig.

Juan Santa Cruz design beyond the US market.

I like orange bikes. I had a five a few years back and I still have a clockwork (newer one) that I use as my winter bike. But I have to agree with the OP. They seem to me to be overpriced when you look at the alternatives.

i like them too.
would love a 29'' version of the five.
but they are very expensive, and when bought as a package you are ripped off.

If it has any bearing on the disussion, I chose Orange because it is a British brand, and being of the age I am I still have a small part of my being that grasps, albeit weakly, to that as being part of something 'Great'. There was never any suggestion of buying anything from anywhere else, and nor do I think there might be in the future.

Only after purchasing the first one did I bother to notice that there were alternatives within that strict parameter, but the Orange logo at the time - with the Union Jack wings - sold me! It reminded me of Victor comics, and exploring uncharted territories, and inventing the modern world we know today, along with many other 'jolly wheezes' (and I'm speaking as a Scot born in Ireland!). I'm also aware of the many negative associations that the flag has for other reasons, but there you go. I can't deny it held a sway over me. Psychologists and marketeers can now step in with their views.

Oh, and I am aware this has nowt to do with the pricing concern that I introduced this thread with, but it seems to be flowing this way for me.

mike, your reasons are as good as any to buy a bike mate.

i usually buy em cos they look nice.........or i thik they do.
how shallow am i........... 😉

This thread really was covered days ago with a price comparison of an Orange 5 and SC Heckler.
Supply and demand.If your product is in demand and you are selling out then you can raise the price.Sorry,but its capitalism.
Its up to us,the punters,to decide whats "value for money",but really we're pretty heavily swayed by marketing.
Orange market themselves as a premium high end brand and price their products as such.The clever bit is knowing just how far to go before sales start to suffer because of the pricing.

Mike T - I'm sort of with you. My P7 has Hope, PACE and x-lite gubbins, about as British a bike you can get, but the prices lately have me going nada mas.

Ton - you, me and the vast majority of the rest of us, bud!
Place of origin and price of purchase be damned - a minger is a minger, and I wouldnae be seen riding one either! 😐

Observation on price of any new bike product.......

Fixed that for you. Everyone's as bad as each other to be honest.

A P7 is £1900 because that's what (some) people are prepared to pay. If they can sell enough to make it worth their while then fair enough. My money would probably go on something made by Ragley or On-One or as a wildcard a Genesis with an 11 speed Alfine which looks (IMHO) much better vfm at £1500.

Ewan - Member

That price list is retail isn't it? Presumably orange pay a lot less than that. One of the main reasons you buy a ready made bike is because it's cheaper than the retail price of the bits. The orange isn't even that! They make the finish kit themselves as well, so 60 is way too high. 500 quid for the frame is ridiculous as well.

Rip off pure and simple. However fools are easily parted etc

I did mention that, my price list isn't rrp (would be much more) ,its what you're likely to get it for from merlin, crc etc. (eg the rrp on the Fox's is above £500) .

I'd be happy to pay £60 for that finsihing kit, Orange's own stuff isn't crap, it's decent stuff. Probably equal quality to race face entry level stuff i reckon.

£25 SDG Bel Air saddle?
£10 Seatpost?
£15 Bar?
£10 Stem?

I think its great that Orange and Hope, etc, can make and sell 'premium' products, lets just all enjoy living the dream.

If not we would all drive a Kia?

Surely as British firms can't compete at mass production then quality product with even better quality marketing is the way to go.

I bought an Orbea Alma earlier this year and the 2011 model that is no different to the 2010 model is about £1000 more expensive. Thinking I got a bargain now!

"Mugboo - Member

I think its great that Orange and Hope, etc, can make and sell 'premium' products, lets just all enjoy living the dream.

If not we would all drive a Kia?"

Some would say that the Orange hardtails are essentially Kias with union jack stickers over the namebadge. I'll buy "made in the UK" as an explanation for the bikes that are, but not for the far eastern ones, they're just laughably expensive. My Hemlock's just as british as a P7, but it doesn't have a british price tag.

Like I said on a previous thread.....

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

= this...

[img] [/img]

Is that really THAT expensive for what I've got? Considering that I'm very, very happy with it, I wasn't even bothered about the price & the fact that I didn't want a far eastern, mass produced frame.
I'm old & old fashioned, I wanted a frame that was BUILT in Britain (like my HT) with a few British bits on, built up in a British bike shop, to give a bit of income to British companies. Don't go saying, 'well Shimano, Easton, Fox...etc aren't British' cos thats a bit of common knowledge innit?
Both my bikes are a bit unique & if you don't like the price, buy summink else, plenty of off the peg stuff to go at out there.

IMO Fives, Alpines etc aren't bad value. Sometimes not sensibly specced, which makes them less good buys than they could be but they're not that far off the competitors. And they are damn fine. It's the hardtails that are taking the mick

Trying to stay on topic as i also have a large array of britishness in my garage that i can go on about at length.

I have never ridden a P7 but they tend to do very well in the tests i read, having just bought a blue pig to replace a 456 (if i dont keep it) it would be interesting to know how it compares. it uses a reynold 631 tubeset so the blurb says or is this the main tubes? these cheaper tubes (compared to the soul etc) appear to compromise weight rather than the ride, and the ride disguises the weight.
As above, bikes are now made in taiwan due to the expertise they have and the quality they can achieve. Cost is secondary even in these hard times.

There is a relentless price hike which probably means people will be buying for things to last longer/get used more so maybe people like orange will benefit as they are a known quantity with a well proven product.

Comodities, labour, fuel etc are rising relentlessly (although no pay rise for 5 years here) which has to have a knock on effect.

Anyone know how many bikes orange sell a year?

"Northwind

I feel the same way about my Hemlock which is covered in Hope stuff but if an Orange hardtail makes someone feel good then why not?

I'm a tight arse so my bikes are an ex demo Hemlock and a second hand Summer Season (powdercoated in met black) with an always improving spec bought at bargain prices as they come up.
I like to kid myself that i buy British, it makes me feel good.

Just to add, my mate bought a mint P7 off of Ebay last year and the second hand price is way cheaper than new. So let those that want to bash the credit card go ahead and the rest of us can claen up later! 😀

esselgruntfuttock - Member

Like I said on a previous thread.....

Big windows at BikeScene?

The problem lays within the customers not orange. There will always be people who think paying more means they get more.

Especially the single pivot crowd who uptalk their overpriced frames ability to compensate for the price. Is it 600 better than the heckler? No where near.

The same folk will be overpaying for building work when they are OAP's.

Orange have no "problem".

Lots of lovely staff, selling good quantities of bikes, through long standing dealers. Supporting racers all the while, from Steve Peat, Greg Minaar etc...

Orange is still owned and managed by Lester and Steve who created the roots of company back in the late '80's, and industry leg-end Michael Bonney who's been there for *ages* too.

Sustainable business. Not to be sniffed at.

What I don't understand is, similar to the the other thread about 29" wheels, why do Orange bikes ignite so many strong feelings; in this case it's usually from the naysayers. Why is that?

On a similar vein, why do Orange get criticised so much about their pricing yet, for example, Pace do not. Their frames are Taiwan made but are virtually as expensive as Orange. And why do Cotic Hemlock owners seem so overjoyed at £1080 for foreign goods but think Orange owners are being ripped off for UK built at £1399. Really, it's not that big a difference is it?

I like Orange bikes because in my personal experience they ride nicer than the competition I've tried, they rarely go wrong and when they do the company is easy and pleasant to deal with, and last but not least they're British. Why would I chunter about the price when to me it's exactly what I want out of a bike without making any compromises?

I suspect (though may be wrong) that Giant employ more people in the UK than some British brands so in a round about way maybe I'm supporting Britain after all but in all honesty I couldn't give monkeys where my bike comes from, its all food on someone's plate.

Orange have no "problem".

Lots of lovely staff, selling good quantities of bikes, through long standing dealers. Supporting racers all the while, from Steve Peat, Greg Minaar etc...

Orange is still owned and managed by Lester and Steve who created the roots of company back in the late '80's, and industry leg-end Michael Bonney who's been there for *ages* too.

Sustainable business. Not to be sniffed at.

+1

Virtually every year Orange sell out of their main lines and have vast waiting lists, so clearly most people don't think they are over priced and think that the price is well worth the finished product.

podge: i hadn't thought of that - thatser very interesting angle.

i've got a Cotic, a Ragley, and a 20yr old Dawes my dad gave me - how many british workers have i supported?

4?

i'm not saying my bikes aren't brilliant, but i suspect there's more to this 'buy british' thing than i might think...

Cy and Brant are thoroughly lovely chaps who make nice interesting bikes, please buy more bikes from them so they can carry on making new things for me to play with.

On a similar vein, why do Orange get criticised so much about their pricing yet, for example, Pace do not

Good point well made. I now think Pace is bad value as well having looked into it 😀

Clearly Orange have arrived at their prices based on what they think the market will take. Seems to be working based on how much they get talked up here and in the mags. Fair play, the owners are going to make some money.

The thing that annoys me most is all this made in the UK crap. I work for a US company that employs 10,000 people in the UK - does that mean that people should or shouldn't buy my companies products? We live in a globalised world. Get over it.

If its an old Dawes than probably a lot more than 4. In fact even without the Dawes id say more than 4 but as Ewan says above, its globalisation. If the rest of the world thought the same than I guess that a lot of these British companies would really struggle as they'd have no export business and I suspect (again I may be wrong) that export is a big chunk of their market.

Mugboo - Member

"I feel the same way about my Hemlock which is covered in Hope stuff but if an Orange hardtail makes someone feel good then why not?"

Oh yeah, if someone wants to pay hundreds of quid over the mark for a bike that's absolutely fine, unless they're out robbing pensioners to fund it 😉 I think it's a bit of a shame and I like to poke fun at people for doing it but it's their money.

CRC own Ragley yes?

correct

Orange - Yesterdays technology at tomorrows prices!

I brought a P7 pro last year and hated the way it rode so swapped the frame for a 456. Considering the 456 is less than half price for a P7 frame the welds and paint job on the 456 put the P7 to shame.

Kuco - I brought a P7 pro last year and hated the way it rode so swapped the frame for a 456. Considering the 456 is less than half price for a P7 frame the welds and paint job on the 456 put the P7 to shame.

On-one sponsor riders don't they? at least they used to. As do planetx (same company I think).

OO and PX are the same company but that is irrelevant.

Maybe OO do kind of sponsor a couple of people but no where near the same standard that Orange do. Plus OO is direct sales / mailorder not through dealerships so comparing the two isn't really fair

you are buying into the sport

Clearly Orange have arrived at their prices based on what they think the market will take. Seems to be working based on how much they get talked up here and in the mags. Fair play, the owners are going to make some money.

I bought two frames on the back of 10/10 marks from certain mags. If I had ridden them first I'd have come to an earlier conclusion on certain editorial/journos.

My chameleon is way above these two. When a frame talent compensates at all speeds you know its special.

The same mags never marked it above '4/5'.

In general, IMO why do santa cruz get a rougher deal than the likes of orange in uk mags?

hora,cos they are written by british journo's, who dont want to be seen slagging a british bike company.

I imagine a couple of them really can feel differences and explain/translate this coherently onto paper. The rest are probably just rippers who nail it as fast as they can down something but have no idea how it got down there so fast or what was happening.

esselgruntfuttock, I'd never pay £3,300 for a mountain bike. Not a critism of you- they just 'depreciate' too quickly to buy new nowadays and all of them are over inflated on pricing.

Hora, this was a one off believe me! If lady luck hadn't smiled I'd never have bought it. I'm pleased she did smile & I'm extremely pleased with it &, I think it's worth every penny, but I'd never have saved up or gone without other stuff to buy it.
It's probably the last time I'll ever spend that on a bike. 😕

Believe me if I had that much I'd buy a ti bling roadframe within minutes!

Mildred

As a Hemlock owner i have no probs with someone paying full whack for an Orange, wether its a Five or Crush.

I bought my Hemlock for £680 inc both rockers from Cy as an ex demo. Buying from this British company means that any spares have been quickly supplied and advice from Cy is almost instant.

I have found Hope to be the same and i assume Orange are too.

My bike wishlist reads

Orange Five
Orange Blood
Transition Covert
Nicolai AM

These are not in any real order and unless someone steals my Cotic then they are gonna stay a dream...

If cash is no problem then buy whatcha like and who cares if its really worth it if you love it.

It also doesn't matter if you can 'ride the wheels off it' or not, as long as it makes you smile and hopefully keeps you fit. 🙂

[i]If cash is no problem then buy whatcha like and who cares if its really worth it if you love it.

It also doesn't matter if you can 'ride the wheels off it' or not, as long as it makes you smile and hopefully keeps you fit.[/i]

Pre-f***ing-cisely! Never a truer word said.

Thats what mines doing for me.

On a general note do people think the Taiwanese leave in mudhuts and their machinery/cost to invest is cheap as they are savage locals? Investment and training took someone a lot of balls. The jump from small to large. People seem to think these factories must be magic and cheap to set up. True they won't be in fantastic locations or nice places to be in but then it is a factory ffs.

Just love the argument (implied) that fabricators/welders/workers here must be paid 'loads' or the cost of manufacturer here is a great deal more than overseas.

How much does an orange special colour cost?

There are a great deal of sprayshops in the north that can do the same quality for £30. You just need to tell them what you want and detail the quality.

Frames cost to ship and uk duty aint cheap is it to import.

Still if the market and reviews support the price. WHY NOT?

the issue is if you price lower than your competitors buyers will see your brand as possibly cheap for a reason.

the first image that came to mind when i thought 'taiwan' was one of a futuristic blade-runner-esque city, only with nicer weather.

1st image from google:
[img] [/img]

they probably think [i]we[/i] live in mudhuts...

(and in my case they wouldn't be far from the truth)

i suspect that a lot of our frames are made in taiwan because they're very good at it.

Fox Floats - £400
Hope wheels - £250
SLX cranks - £100
Rear XT Front slx mech - £80
SLX Shifters - £60
Elixir 5 brakes - £200
Good Maxxis tyres - £50
Cassette and chain - £40
Finishing kit - £60
Headset £20
Frame - £500

£1760 Costs £1800 off orange

I know you were sort of defending the price, but it's more usual for complete bikes to work out cheaper than the individual bits at RRP, isn't it?

Agree. If I have an established brand and I day to the account manager at Fox 'I'd like 400 32 Floats' for 2012 I'm sure he wouldn't charge me shop retail.