[Closed] Not recovering- STW coaches/couch GP's assemble

Following

I assume you are doing stretches post-ride?

No I'm not- never have, I'm guessing you are going to recommend this. Does it help?

A quick look at strava trends suggests a marked doubling of load last month compared to the months leading up

Your symptoms suggest either your trying to lose weight at the same time as increasing workload (less food)

Or to much high intensity.

Or no rest weeks.

Cumulative and multifaceted fatigue are very real.

Cheers Terry.

Yeh I'm eating a bit below maintenance. Done a few high intensity rides, but didn't think it was that much of my overall volume in the last month.

Legs feel wrecked!

Should I just rest until this coming Saturdays big ride?

I wouldn't rest

I would go out. Avoid group ride spin the legs get the blood flowing real easy easy ride.

As for eating below maintainance. You know that plus training doesn't go. Fuel the engine. The weight will come off as a product of the exercise.

I'm not saying don't monitor intake I'm saying give it what it needs.

Training to get fitter/faster what ever you want to call Vs training to lose weight are almost mutually exclusive when. It comes to approaches- yes there are elements of both in either but to succeed fully in one does mean making sacrafices at the other end.

And I'm going to bang my drum again on this one. Racing weight by Matt Fitzgerald. Very worth while read especially seeing what you have been writing on Strava in acompanyment to this post.

Have you tried looking at training stress scores (or similar)? Number of hours can mask how much effort you've been putting in. Does look like you've quite a bump in volume lately, combining that with reduced calorie intake is only going to go one way...

Are your legs sore all over, or pain in particular locations?

All over, lower half of quads the worst.

TSS reverse order

818- Last week. That might just answer my question, recovery week needed I guess.
637
659- this was the supposed recovery week, there was a really intense session in that week of 3.5 hours.
145- was 5 hours, did some strict z2
486
835
472
600
386
114
469

Aching or general all-over fatigue? I suffer from an inflammatory response that leads to aches after extreme exercise. Still laid up with viral illness after heavy training over the winter. It might be similar. Ibuprofen reduces this inflammatory response for me.

Everything I hear basically says what Trail Rat says. Eat to fuel your riding. Eat more when riding as most of us don't eat enough.

You've just done 3 big weeks and Sunday was a big ride off a load of weeks that were below that quantity.
Take a proper rest week. ie nothing or noodling around in Zone 1 and reassess how you feel on Monday. Watch out for illness symptoms as well.

PS I'm not a coach or a nutritionist etc etc.

Edit as you've put the TSS scores up. Yes you've blown your average TSS out of the water. Rest at least this week and don't go crazy the week after.

Useful podcasts - Trainerroad, Consumate Athlete

Stretching / massage is at least easy to try to see if it has any impact - get on the foam roller and do the basic leg stretches and see what happens.

Sounds like you're describing something more systemic, though - dial it back to zone 2 the usual recipe there.

Eat more, stretch, use a foam roller.

your TSS is all over the place. Take a very easy week and eat properly, then build up TSS more gradually, there is a lot of advice about ramp rates out there.

In fact, your TSS doesn't make sense?
Working back:
Last week was 7 hours but 818 TSS? How did you manage that? Your FTP must be wrong?
week before 9 hours - 637 hard but doable
6 hours for for 659 - again, pretty much impossible?
5 hours for 145, ok, recovery
8 hours for 456, that's pretty chilled too.
5 hours for 835 TSS?!!
and a few of the subsequent ones are impossible assuming 100TSS for 1 hour is flat out.

Are they not lined up right?

Ian that tss is based on heart rate and time.

5 of those hours were lugging an Enduro bike around 50 miles of Wales with draggy tyres and hills with 2 guys who are inherently faster than me. About 4 hours of this my h.r was close to lactate threshold. The other 2 hours earlier in the week were quite hard on the same bike too.

Basically 7 hours of hard work hence the high TSS in comparison to the 9 hour week when more of that was at z2 etc.

Sorry, those are relative effort scores. Not TSS- same sort of thing but im guessing scaled/scored differently.

Thise numgers are based on time at HR from summit

ahhh magic strava TSS. Bonkers numbers (both low and high versions)

Not really magic though are they. Time at heart rate multiplied by time with factors etc. Arguably pretty consistent. Ok hydration etc and power is more absolute but it's a decent guide.

Shows a week relative to the next for comparison doesn't it which it's intended for.

@chilled76 - how much time (or percentage) is in each HR zone? Without seeing the underlying figures it sounds like you are just beasting it all the time. I'd skip the BHF ride, it will just encourage you to beast yourself again.

Take it easy for at least two weeks. By easy I mean nothing more than zone 2. When you feel like you've recovered then 80% of your riding should be zone 2 and 20% zone 4 or 5, possibly even 90/10. Look up polarised training.

If you use a heart rate monitor and/or a power meter for almost all your rides, so the figures are meaningful, what is your fitness/fatigue/form?

Strava "analysis" pack has a fitness trend, but you can get them for free using https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/elevate-for-strava/dhiaggccakkgdfcadnklkbljcgicpckn?hl=en or https://cricklesorg.wordpress.com/

Elevate (and I think Crickles too) regards a "form" score of -10 to -30 being optimum for progression, but further negative as over-training.

After intensively trying to regain the 20mins sustained power figures I had before lurgy from mid Jan, my "form" was typically -7.5 to -22.5 to mid March, tapering off towards my holiday week last week, when I hoped to tackle Draycott Steep and other Mendip cat3 hills on my road bike. But then I caught a milder lurgy just before the hol, abandoned taking the road bike and stuck to a hire bike on the cat4 hills around Longleat. My "form" went positive during the hol, in theory my legs should have felt good to challenge my PBs, but the lurgy informed me on the first day's single climb up Longleat estate's ~430 foot climb I was in no fit shape to get near my PBs.

it sounds like you are just beasting it all the time.

Yeah, I'm surprised that anyone should be feeling so bad after only 5-9 hours riding per week but I guess that depends on work rate etc.  Talk of TSS etc is way over my head as I just ride for enjoyment.

Eat more, stretch, use a foam roller.

Also:

Sleep more, 9+ hours a night, in a blacked out room.  No screens for an hour before bed.

Massage

Ice Baths

Contrast Showers

it sounds like you are just beasting it all the time.
Yeah, I’m surprised that anyone should be feeling so bad after only 5-9 hours riding per week but I guess that depends on work rate etc. Talk of TSS etc is way over my head as I just ride for enjoyment.

Yeh thats really what I thought and doesn't correlate with last year and why I've asked about it.

Form is supposably -7 today so not bad really on the scheme of things. I'll post the data later when I've got chance to take screen grabs etc.

I use HR for every ride/run- for thi fitness/freshness/relative effort data.

Forget stretching and all that, just take a week off. You are knackered and your body is not recovering. Rest, eat well and relax. When you re-start cycling you'll be amazed at how good you feel and how strong the legs.

I found compression tights very effective for recovery after running. I was pretty sceptical about them but tried them and for me they work. I've not really used them after cycling as it's never left me with aching legs in the same way as running.

Don't know anything about TSS but when I had the same symptoms a year or so ago when I was training for the Dragon Ride I found that taking an entire week (might even have been 10 days) off really helped me. I think I had just accumulated too much fatigue.

I've since found out my hormone levels are all ****ed up, which is possibly why I got so fatigued and couldn't recover in the first place, but nonetheless it was simply time off the bike which sorted it out and it didn't come back.

Something I forgot to mention yesterday is that since having a turbo trainer (Direto) with an integrated power meter in late Dec 2017 and then buying a power meter crank (4iiii) in April 2018, the peak negative "form" spikes have definitely not matched my peak negative "form" from heart rate monitor alone. Over the last 27 months of fitness cycling, I've had many times when I've given my legs pretty severe DOMS (typically with ~2 days delay), through riding cumulative volume and/or intensity.

Power "form" vs (hrm "form") on given dates over the last year...
1/4/2018 -40 vs (-29) {I remember my legs being dead for days after the ~77 mile ride that day, biggest ride in months}
25/5/2018 -40 vs (-14) {day of my single 100 mile ride to date, again very sore legs for days after}
15/7/2018 -40 vs (-37) {end of my most intense week to date, 300 miles and 20,000 feet of climbing}

Since beginning this mid life crisis fitness seeking cycling, I've always been conscious that I was rarely up for PB chasing session up hills, after finishing a shift at work as a postie. I started recording my deliveries as private activities I upload to Strava and it soon became apparent that they really do add an appreciable amount of stress on my body in addition to my riding (Crickles estimates I do ~6000 XSS total in a typical 6-week working period). When around November 2018 I started trying to make it a mission to do at least a 20min turbo trainer power training session around my FTP after every shift, having cycle commuted, the first few weeks absolutely drained me! But after a while, my body adapted and got stronger, I've had an FTP test either side of my mid Jan to mid Feb lurgy with new PBs... Just pretty gutted to have had another lurgy for the last ~2.5 weeks where I've felt it wise to cut right back on training, seeing those gains virtually drop day by day once again.

"Recovery rides" of up to ~1 hour, where you ban yourself from using the large chainring and stick to the easier sprockets can help your legs recover from DOMS, using such easy gears may seem useless/feeble but it really can help your muscles.

after finishing a shift at work as a postie. I started recording my deliveries as private activities I upload to Strava and it soon became apparent that they really do add an appreciable amount of stress on my body in addition to my riding

I worked on the post many years ago when it was a 6 day week and a second delivery. I'd pretty much jog around the second delivery as the bag was always pretty light. Despite having the afternoons off I didn't do much riding. These days you are out and on your feet a lot longer even if it is 5 days a week, I'm not surprised it's having an effect on you. Didn't Bernard Hinault always stick by the mantra of never stand when you can sit, never sit when you can lie down and never ever walk anywhere? The fact that LeMond was off playing golf rather undermines it but without a doubt your job is not ideal if the aim is to be as fast a cyclist as possible.

It probably isn't ideal, but given I'm 45 and only began using bikes to try and get fitter in Jan 2017 (even though I've had/used bikes for 40+ years), I'm not going to be the next Cav or Froome! As someone who has had Seasonal Affective Disorder for ~25+ years, with other bouts of depression thrown in, it's been a good way of getting me outdoors doing exercise (which is often never easy, but once I'm out there I barely ever regret it).
My biggest regret is I just wish someone had taken me on a ride to the South Downs hills back around '93, when there were people I knew that appeared to be keen cyclists, these days nothing comes close to the sadistic challenge of trying to chase my PBs up several cat3/4 hills on a ~45+ mile ride.

Some really helpful comments folks, really appreciate the input.

I said I'd upload some of the data

I still think its Monkey AIDS

I still think its Monkey AIDS

Hi Rob

What was Saturday's ride? A chuffin' criterium!😲

60% of your time was in zone four. Looking at my last couple of rides with a HRM, the figures (minutes) are Z1/Z2/Z3/etc

38/14/9/4/0
32/42/37/21/5

As I and others have said you are overdoing it. Z1 & a little Z2 until you are recovered. If you keep trying to push it you'll end up with chronic fatigue and it will take a long time, as in months, to recover.

Not really magic though are they. Time at heart rate multiplied by time with factors etc. Arguably pretty consistent.

I'm really wary of HR as a measure of effort as for me it is a very poor relationship, *especially* when I'm tired.

so, from this this ride which was the first of three back to back fast centuries, to this ride my average heart rate fell from 140bpm to 129bpm for similar speed and effort, and my max went down from 162 to 150 (I've got a really low max heart rate). That would be a completely different zone. The problem is that HR drops as fatigue increases from day to day for me, compounding the problem - it'll consistently underestimate the effort I'm putting in and can lead to a vicious cycle. I know whitestone overdid last year - I'd take his advice and rest up.

I found compression tights very effective for recovery after running. I was pretty sceptical about them but tried them and for me they work. I

Science says placebo

Shawn bearsden says never under estimate the power of placebo.

I like my compression tights.

There is also the same written for icebaths unless your standing vertical in the ice bath and getting the hydrostatic compression effect with that of the cold.

I also like ice /alternating showers

But science studies does say other wise

I do however agree with shawn Bearsden don't under estimate placebo.

Thanks for mentioning that Ian 😥 In my case it was chronic fatigue allied with heat stroke on last year's HT550, it probably took me nine months to recover.

The fatigue had accumulated from doing lots of long single day and multi-day ITTs, effectively MTB races, I think I did seven in each of 2016 & 2017 which when you consider that the shortest was 100 miles and most were in the 300km category isn't surprising. Let's just say I'm being a bit more selective in which rides I make a real effort.

How are you setting your heart rate zones and determining your Lactate Threshold Heart Rate?
https://cricklesorg.wordpress.com/
gives you a rolling LTHR and when it changes, gives you new zone bands that you can enter as custom zones on sites like Strava.

It's not concerning me at this stage, but I'm aware my LTHR has dropped from being 170-175 through most of last year to being no higher than 166 so far this year, even after 3+ weeks of regular turbo training in the kitchen around FTP (which can heat up to ~23C and initially the heat stress massively drops my power for any given heart rate above ~130bpm before adaption).

FTP is set through a zones chart based on lactate threshold. I've tweaked them slightly based on what I've been able to hold for periods of time/ when breathing deepens etc.

Knowledge of when I blow up /what I can hold. I have my LT threshold pegged at 172. Done tests etc looking at HR for last 20 mins of a hard effort etc.

I used tables from various different methods, mostly stuff by Joe Friel books and ended up settling on the one based on LT.

Something definitely not right. I did a 30 minute leg primer last night and my quads feel like they are beasted today- little cramp spasms driving to work.

I'm gonna do this ride Saturday regardless as I've taken sponsorship for BHF and feel obliged to honour the event for the people that have coughed cash up.

After that I'll rest.

Science says placebo

Shawn bearsden says never under estimate the power of placebo.

I like my compression tights.

I spend my life sitting in clinical trials and medical meetings. I have never yet seen a single case of a clinical trial where placebo didn't have a positive effect -I make my own to make sure there is no chance of anything in them that might actually work `:-)

I recently had a real problem with my legs not recovering after rides. I've fixed myself completely now. I significantly upped my protein intake, started having a protein shake with dextrose immediately after every ride to kick start my recovery and now I can ride on consecutive days without recovery problems and feel a lot better.

@chilled76 - if you do ride the route tomorrow stick to z2 effort* otherwise you are just going to delay your recovery further. It might feel like you are crawling along but you really, really don't want to be doing a ride like the one you posted the data for.

* if there's cut-offs then you might want to pace things to get through those but otherwise keep it easy.

Just thought I'd revive this- felt alright for a bit and now it's back.

Haven't ridden since Tuesday as am knackered...

one of you mentioned Crickles- I've been having a play. One thing I've noticed is a massive difference between the Crickles fatigue/form data and the one Strava Summit produces from HR data (I've been using the Strava one). That has currently got my fatigue figure so I am actually just falling into positive form today- where as the Crickles one has me still heavily fatigued and on a pretty negative form.

I'm guessing from the way I'm feeling that the Strava analysis is way off and should now use Crickles- but anyone able to tell me why the two calculations have so much difference in their summary?

I can't tell you the reason why, but IIRC the formula at Crickles and Strava is different, form more negative than -30 is bad at Crickles and Elevate, while for Strava more negative than -10 is considered overtraining.

If you do any activities without HRM data, Crickles will estimate your cardiac stress by using XSS instead of HRM-based CSS. I don't often bother with wearing a HRM for work, so my commutes and delivery time are estimated, after a week of trying to get a training structure going again my CSS is 2056 and my XSS is 4978 over the last 42 days. Crickles has my fitness/fatigue/form at 122/138/-15 today.

Elevate will also estimate stress scores when activity power meter or heart rate monitor data isn't available. In a recent update this year, it enabled an "athlete" settings calendar where you can adjust things like weight/LTHR/max heart rate/FTP over specified date periods and then get stress scores based on those settings (which is handy if you have historical data to give Elevate when you start up). Elevate has my fitness/fatigue/form as 74.9/91.5/-28.9 today.

gives fitness/fatigue/form solely on power meter data, while grabbing my FTP and weight from Strava, today they are 38/81/-43.

Strava fitness/fatigue/form figures vary massively for me currently, depending upon what data it is using...
Power and HRM 61/70/-9
HRM 70/99/-29
Power 53/70/-17

But all my commutes and delivery activities are all disregarded by Strava when I'm not wearing my hrm, which is most of the time.

I don't expect my legs to feel very fresh today on the bike (hopefully outdoors rather than on turbo), given I've done 7 consecutive days involving turbo sessions, six days averaging ~66 TSS and then ramping up to 168 TSS yesterday... Trying to make the most of a 7-day free trial on Zwift using British Cycling benefit promo! I expect to barely use the big ring at all today, using easy gears to keep my power down under ~250W (my new lowered FTP after lurgy for ~6 weeks) and let my legs recover so I can do some short intervals at ~300W tomorrow after work.

A slightly different approach, but I find using an app called ithlete to measure HRV - Heart Rate Variability, basically the variation in the gap between your heart beats - really useful. It's a kind of holistic measure of recovery that you take daily first thing and gives you a useful reference point both in the immediate sense -'this is what my body's doing today' - and over the longer term.

In really simple terms, if ithlete says I'm not well recovered, or well, unless I'm deliberately over-reaching, I'll consider backing off that day or changing sessions around etc. It's also a good way of monitoring what factors affect your recovery, sleep is the biggest determinant for me, and also sometimes spotting the onset of a virus / cold before you start showing symptoms, when backing off can be enough to nip it in the bud. It's also an 'objective' measure that backs up more subjective takes - ie, if I feel bad and ithlete says I'm in the red, it gives me a bit more confidence in maybe cancelling a ride or lowering intensity.

Generally I've found it correlates pretty well with actual performance. I've had days when I've felt good, HRV has suggested otherwise and I've gone really badly and vice versa.

Anyway, I thought I'd mention it as a possible aid to gauging recovery that might be useful for some.

Cheers for that- I have been wanting to look at HRV. How does the app work- does it link with a Garmin strap etc from your phone or something?

I'll have a download of it, cheers for that!