[Closed] No UKGE in 2016

Just seen that too. Didn't agree with a few of his decisions but it's definitely still a real shame to see it go

So that's the World Series round and now UKGE gone for 2016. Is Enduro already past its peak in the UK?

Why doesn't Charlie W run it?
He's always come across as diplomatic, reasonable and professional.

Gutted, such a shame, absolutely brilliant series.
Sad times for enduro racing in the UK

Were they the ones that did that shambolic compulsory insurance thing where they couldn't tell anyone what cover they needed? I remember thinking at the time they didn't seem like a good long term prospect if they were that clueless. Apologies if I'm confused and that was someone else..

legend - Member
Just seen that too. Didn't agree with a few of his decisions but it's definitely still a real shame to see it go

+1, Didn't agree with how it was taken in 2015, with the insurance/full face fiasco and the way it was handled putting me off the series, but a shame to see it go. Hoping someone can full the void and keep UKGE going, loosing the national series would be a blow.

Seems odd one person leaving a team leads to cancellation of the whole lot, howrever...

The UKGE team will be doing possibly two events in 2016, one of these will be a week long bike festival, the other remains a close guarded secret!

Bike festival = charge punters several hundred ££ for a week in a field. Has to be more profitable than individual events?

Maybe Charlie will step up in the future, he's already a big part of it, bit its not a one man job and Steve really was the driving force behind the series, finding venues, digging trails, working with BC etc
It'd s huge undertaking to organise a race series that went from one end of Britain to the other.

Enduro isn't dead, you only have to look to Ard rock's success and PMBA, they are both reasonably priced and laid back (no Insurance no full face) . Maybe someone else will take over UKGE (british cycling to step up!) or maybe between PMBA and Ard rock promotors, could make a longer combined series.

Mike Marsden always puts on a good show.

I assume anyone could pop up and become the "National" series if they wanted to?

Hopefully someone will, take an awful lot to get a series as epic as ukge

I know Steve took a lot of the stuff said on here and elsewhere, about the insurance and ff rules personally , and hes held up his hands and said it was his fault. With a new baby I suppose his perspective has changed, life's too short to sit around taking crap off keyboard warriors

perhaps Kimbers, from some I spoke to when I was back in the UK epic is apt... I hope those waiting for refunds get theirs.

Maybe at this point it needs to get it's roots sorted, and work out where it's going.

That's a great shame. They've made some dumb decisions this year and backed those up with some of the most awful PR imaginable, but the events themselves tended to be well received and even if it was a bit self proclaimed it was seen as the national series.

Best wishes to Steve Parr and his family- he's a good guy and MTB through and through

as for enduro racing in the uk - its in rude health given its popularity and demand for places. There's a need for a premier national race series to rival the BDS and feed the world stage. If I was a race organiser with a tried and tested timing system and time on my hands I'd be all over this as the goodwill is there.

TBH it explains a lot- hope this works out for him, sounds like it's the sensible move. These things aren't one man shows but they do tend to depend on one or two maniacs to make them happen at all, especially at the start, that's got to weigh heavy at the best of times.

Seemed fairly inevitable when you looked at how the events were run, the PR, the bizarre demands they had of competitors and their extortionate pricing. Hopefully someone with a bit more skill at organising events and more willing to admit they're wrong sometimes (or just not make mistakes in the first place) will put on a similar series.

with a tried and tested timing system and time on my hands I'd be all over this as the goodwill is there.

Is it?!...about half the comments on any UKGE thread were along the lines of "how much?...I'm not paying that to ride the same trails I can ride for free the weekend after!"...

There seemed to be a misconception that Steve and the UKGE lot were getting rich off the back of 'good willed' mountain bikers despite Scottfitz of QECP and other organisers standing up and saying how expensive events are and how little money is made.

.....even if he was making good money (but the fact he lost his house suggests not) why shouldn't the man pushing the National Series make a living from it?!

MTBers are a funny lot, think nothing of dropping a few thousand on a bike, £500 on new Pikes, £30-50 for a tyre, £200 for a dropper post....they now have their Enduro bike...but balk at being asked to pay for entry to an event to race like minded individuals on similar bikes.

I wouldn't go anywhere near trying to organise a series and those that do have my utmost respect, most people I've met at events have been excellent fun, friendly, helpful etc but the keyboard warrior mentality must get tiring and leave organisers wondering why they bother.

Maybe Charlie will step up in the future, he's already a big part of it, bit its not a one man job and Steve really was the driving force behind the series, finding venues, digging trails, working with BC etc

NEW RACE FORMAT FOR 2016…MASH UP!
Saturday and Sunday Races to suit your timetable
3 stages for each round
Race all 3 stages as many times as you want, your best time from each stage counts for the overall results
Live Transponder timing to so you can check your progress after each run
Each stage will be open for 3 hours
Best 3 stage times win
Prize for fastest time on each stage
No insurance or full face helmets required but recommended
Entry for round 1 will go live on January the 4th £45 + £1.50 booking fee
http://welshgravityenduro.com/welsh-gravity-enduro-mash-up-series-2016-dates/

MTBers are a funny lot, think nothing of dropping a few thousand on a bike, £500 on new Pikes, £30-50 for a tyre, £200 for a dropper post...

Err, is it possible you might be over generalising a bit?

I'm guessing that a majority of those that were complaining on threads about the price/insurance/FF rule had no idea of the scale of the events, the severity of some of the stages (hence the need for more rigorous insurance stipulations), and the challenges in making unique stages for that weekend. It's clear that some aspects of the series could have been better but I'm disappointed by the attitude of some on here who are more than ready to stick the boot in.

Sounds like SP has had one hell of a year. I congratulate him on what he and the team have achieved and wish them well for the future.

Is there a list of the organisations that offer Enduro in the UK (for the remainder of this year plus next)?

I've found the minienduro.tv site, Ard rock and Welsh Gravity. Are there others?

I've experienced this in the past as the Secretary of an MTB Club and several other incarnations going back over the years.

These things take off due to the passion and enthusiasm of a select few. These people do their best to make it happen and when it's successful lots of other people are more than happy to take advantage and join in - but not help. Then when things grow to a point where the individual is not sufficient resource and insurance gets involved (read liability) the same people who took advantage sit around criticising and doing nothing to help. And then even complaining the people who gave them their pleasure are to blame somehow!!

Good luck to SP, thanks to him for all his efforts. If people want the UKGE to continue - step up and do something yourself.

PS. I've never set a tyre anywhere near a UKGE or other event - way too soft for that hard stuff.

oldejeans - Member

I'm guessing that a majority of those that were complaining on threads about the price/insurance/FF rule had no idea of the scale of the events, the severity of some of the stages (hence the need for more rigorous insurance stipulations), and the challenges in making unique stages for that weekend. It's clear that some aspects of the series could have been better but I'm disappointed by the attitude of some on here who are more than ready to stick the boot in.

You'd be guessing wrong. Many of those riders already ride at the venues away from race day and/or are well aware of what the terrain at places like Hamsterley is like. Many of those same riders had also ridden UKGE rounds previously.

There was never a 'need' for insurance, it didn't help the organiser and it barely helped the rider other than to give them some money to blow at CRC while they were healing.

As above, still didn't want to see the series disappear but Steve even admits in the statement that things were not handled well

chris_db - Member
insurance gets involved (read liability)

The UKGE insurance debacle had nothing to do with liability

the severity of some of the stages (hence the need for more rigorous insurance stipulations)

That was the problem, severity was not the basis for the personal insurance. The minimum insurance they required you to take out had negligible benefit.

End of the day UKGE rounds are subject to the same economic forces as any product, if it's too expensive then people won't go.

Also if you need customers then annoying them and not listening is never going to end well unfortunately.

Good luck to SP, thanks to him for all his efforts. If people want the UKGE to continue - step up and do something yourself.

Yep thanks for some fun races if you're reading this Steve. Sometimes its hard to know when to call it a day with things - but it's usually obvious when you actually make the leap. Hope it feels that way to you.

I know there were efforts to get a UK Enduro federation going. Wonder if that's the way forward for a national series? Each promoter putting up their best race as a round for it? Bit like the EWS.

Maybe not, but it's a thought.

The Oz Marathon series runs the same way, people run their event and run it well but lift each of their events up into a national series.

Less stress of running a series and more people working for events.

I was going to enter Ae when I was back but when 4 people said don't bother then I decided not to bother. The other events get great feedback so maybe something is going right there.

I've slagged Steve and UKGE as much as anyone tbh but is this really the time? Or for that matter snidey comments about "keyboard warriors" etc. It's not been perfect but it's still been a huge positive for the UK scene, and that wouldn't have happened without Steve (and others o'course). So cheers feller.

All national series I've been involved with have been based on people running their own events within an overall framework.

The only issue with this is that the events can vary quite a bit, see the abuse that the No Fuss guys got for the Scottish Enduro held at Glenlivet.

it's obvious to most people that Steve invested huge amounts of emotional energy into UKGE, that has to be applauded.

the sub-text (maybe just on this thread) seems to be 'UKGE is dead!', fwiw i reckon it's a bit early to announce the demise just yet.

Maybe a quiet year wouldn't be a bad thing - a bit like Glasto'. But maybe without SP driving the bus next time.

I was going to enter Ae when I was back but when 4 people said don't bother then I decided not to bother.

you missed out, Ae was excellent, tough 40k loop and a really good mix of off piste and DH tracks

All national series I've been involved with have been based on people running their own events within an overall framework.
The only issue with this is that the events can vary quite a bit, see the abuse that the No Fuss guys got for the Scottish Enduro held at Glenlivet.

I think its an option and a good way to keep a national series going, it works well but it is tough to get right, loads of people complaining about tweedloves inclusion of stage 6 at EWS this year (including chris ball!)
The stages at UKGE this season have all been consistently excellent (well maybe not triscombe as last minute FC work meant 2 tracks had to be axed)

fair enough but having to deal with proving my insurance was good enough and bringing the FF was too much hassle. The points were about attitudes and organisations, that and people I spoke to were waiting for refunds and getting soundly ignored, cancellations were not being replied to and stuff like that. In contrast everyone recommended the PMBA events without hesitation.

but having to deal with proving my insurance was good enough and bringing the FF was too much hassle.

so infact you were never going to enter at all?

A big shame there won't be UKGE next year. Have done all races this year and despite not getting the results I've wanted, I've had a really good time so far this year overall.

I really hope there is some sort of national series next year, whether it's a standalone one or separate races under a 'national' banner...we can't not have a national series in this country...otherwise Welshies - expect to be inundated in your series!

I stuck myself on the waiting list for King & Queen and was going to enter the Ae round but asked mates who raced this year and last first. Got enough of a response. Not sure what your going to do next year Kimbers as official STW PR man for the series may be redundant 😉

Being serious if things are not working, work out why. Fix the problem and move on. If you can't work out the problem you shouldn't be running it.

I see and understand that Parr had some issues but when you are taking money as a pro you need to be a pro. I know a lot of race orgnaisers here, just spoken to the guys doing the Gravity enduro here on some stuff around safety and neck braces, very responsive and understand.

hey legend - do you know them all personally?

and please correct me as to why they thought insurance was necessary.

im gonna set up my own racing PR consultancy, with the success ive had supporting ukge....oh

anyway, fortunately Steves still running a couple of events next year, Im really hoping the success of those will see him back for a new series in 2017

I dont just wave ukge's flag coz i have a mancrush on Parr, I do it because i think its the best race series in the country, I really look forward to every round; 3 days riding and racing in some of the best locations in the UK , the smaller races like PMBAs and QECPs might be more relaxed and more like a mates race, but the only other races in the UK Ive done that come close to being as consistently good as ukge are the tweedlove ones, not ridden any SES ones but hear they are equally good.

UKGE and steve handled the insurance/ff thing poorly, fortunately it wasnt enough to put me off, this year has been the best season yet; the stages have been more challenging and the timing etc better than ever before, its just a shame that numbers were down, <20 quid a year for insurance and a new helmet are a drop in the ocean compared to the price of an enduro bike and all the gear
and Im certainly no riding god, regularly finish at the back but its challenging and enjoyable

the UK enduro race scene will be a lot worse off next year, it sucks for the teams too, wonder what theyll do, some really fast youths race the seires!

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fortunately you can still enter what could be the last ever UKGE in the Dyfi valley in a couple of weeks
its gonna be a tough round but the trails are excellent

it will be epic, course is amazing

www.moredirt.com/event/949

you will need insurance too, cheapest is cycleplan www.cycleplan.co.uk ,20 quid

😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

please correct me as to why they thought insurance was necessary.

UKGE said it was to ensure riders could cover themselves in event of an injury so they were not out of pocket if off work. Except the minimum required by them didnt provide that, it gave you a small amount of cash if you broke a bone (and only if it broke, sprains, poked out your eye etc. got nothing).

Many reasons were theorised by riders, a lot was made of the connection between the promotion of the company that provided the organisers insurance and also the fact there was a connection with one of the members of the organising team and said insurance company. Of course you could use other insurance as kimbers has directed so it was kind of moot.

I did offer my own insurance policy, £1 policy, pays out £1 if you are injured and refunds your £1 at the end of the year.

(pp gift of course)

kimbers - Member

it sucks for the teams too...

it's very possible that i've missed something, but...

maybe 'teh industry' that seems to love selling us £4k carbon #Enduro bikes, could do a bit more to support* #Enduro [i]races[/i]

(*not necessarily cash**, but logistics, PR, Legal, social media, etc. etc. it all needs covering, it all takes time and effort)

(**but i bet that wouldn't hurt)

Although it's sad it's gone, I and everyone I race with had made the decision we weren't bothering again next year. I've done a few each year, and they have seemingly got worse IMO. Coupled with the other points/issues others have mentioned, it just didn't make sense to spend the money.

The first year we went to Dyfi I still say was one of the best races we did.

Charlie's series has largely been applauded by everyone who has entered, so I expect a few of us will end up there.

I see Si Paton making some noise about the British Enduro Series, so I fully expect there to be some sort of national series year.

I've done a few each year, and they have seemingly got worse IMO

really?

this years series was by far the best one ive done- dyfi this year should be the schnizzle!

isnt charlies series all trail centre stages?

yeah theres a BES facebook page already

will prices be similar to BDS ?

Don't know, not done any of Charlie's yet. but then every UKGE I've done has mostly used existing trails anyway, apart from the odd scratched in detour.

We shall see what comes of it all. There are plenty of other events out there selling out and doing great to suggest enduro racing in the UK is doing very well, something obviously wasn't working with the UKGE this year with the numbers down a big chunk.

Let's see what happens 🙂

Si Paton step forward , British Enduro Series on its way?

Si Paton step forward , British Enduro Series on its way?

A BDS round next year costs £95. And you think Enduro is expensive?

i wonder if the three day riding thing is anything to do with the numbers being down
I am a master for example which is probably the biggest cat in enduro and I much prefer pmba racing (one day) as I am at an age where work kids etc makes the commitment of steves races a bit much
All the best for the future though chap

I am a master for example which is probably the biggest cat in enduro and I much prefer pmba racing (one day) as I am at an age where work kids etc makes the commitment of steves races a bit much

I think this is definitely an issue worldwide - in just about every series, this has been mentioned.

Mainly it was the FF+insurance thing that put me off, but all I want is the more laid back "mates racing" vibe. Wearing or having to carry a FF over some 40km course just didn't seem right.

Also as stated, multi day events are ok once or twice a year for average joes like me, but a whole series of them is maybe too much time commitment for most?

That's what happens when you create a racing series for old men...

🙂
The masters are usually faster than the seniors! A lot of last years fast masters are now in elite

I will be sad if nothing replaces it but if we have a new series I will be happy. The whole direction Parr was taking the series seem to be at odds with the origin of UK Enduro racing.

Same here, myself and a few others decided that we wouldnt race it next year. Always raced a few rounds each year since 2012 but only been able to do two this year due to injury.
I was planning to do more laid back events like mini enduro and red kite next year.
I have done a few different series (Irish, Italian, EWS, Tweedlove) and I think its better with no seeding, practice saturday/race sunday with no unofficial practice allowed.

Oy Hels and MC, fancy running a national series?

The 3 day thing really just felt like spreading it further to justify for the cost as much as anything else. Seeding felt the same to me- they could say "2 days racing" instead of "1 day's racing and 1 day's practice" but it was effectily not much different. It's like those music festivals that swell to 3 days to increase the price, then you realise it's basically the same amount of good bands, spread thinner and you just have to spend an extra day trying not to need a poo.

(aside... Seeding's crap in enduro though, because of the variation of stages... At inners I seeded badly because seeding was done on a very pedally, untechnical trailcentre stage... Then spent all day passing everyone in front of me because they couldn't ride the natural or difficult stages- they were just fast at the pedalling. Which was quite fun but if I'd been taking it seriously, it'd have been annoying to lose all that time)

Golden rule of uk enduro- if innerleithen mtb racing didn't do it in 2011, it's probably shit 😆

Northwind
[img] [/img]

The reality is it folded due to lack of riders, caused in the main by the insurance issue. That was a debacle start to finish. When it was announced I scratched out a couple of basic numbers using the overalls from 2014 and it was pretty clear at that time the number of 1 race riders would plummet as a single race went to over £150*, putting the whole series in jeopardy. That happened.

Now we have the interesting option of a BDS clone, but that again risks alienating the one race riders that are the icing on the enduro cake. Without them you can't fill a race, and if you cant fill a race, you cant run a series long term. Enduro is all about running what you normally ride (to some extent), and so its appealing to a 1 time a year rider, unless you price it the same as a decent hotel at a trail centre in which case kipping in a field with no facilities becomes less appealing. MUCH less appealing.

* The cost needn't have gone that high, and thats the main issue as to why it was such a balls up. Someone should have thought this through in advance and if insurance was really necessary come up with several options at various prices including an option for a weekend cover PAYG type thing.

Ben insurance could be had at <20 quid

But you are right it was never thought through properly

Nortwind, the 3 day thing worked really well for me it was a great excuse for a long weekend away with your mates and without fridary, practising a 40k loop with 1000+m climbing then racing it all the next day, meant I was less than optimal on Sunday!
While qualifying works really well ime, far more likely to have overtakes/holdups on raceday without it
At the same time those that couldnt do the 3 days were at a disadvantage and I think that put plenty off too.

Ultimately I'm just sad, there's now no national* series as challenging for me to look forward too

* when I say nation I mean UK, like most of the people in Britain I don't live in Scotland!

I still say you should all come race at Dyfi in a couple of weeks and give your opinions after!
Actually Ben you should definitely ride this one too 😉

Ben insurance could be had at <20 quid

I know, I insured my whole team for £60, but if the organisers make it hard to establish whether your insurance covers you at £20 then the insurance is £90+ through their 'preferred' supplier by default, which is stupid.

I am a master for example which is probably the biggest cat in enduro and I much prefer pmba racing (one day) as I am at an age where work kids etc makes the commitment of steves races a bit much

The whole usp for enduro is it's dh for munters to unfit to race xc.Having a series aimed at and based around a handful of elite/wannabe's instead of "average joe who doesn't live and breathe racing 7 days a week" was always going to end badly.
I think enduro will be stronger in the uk for the loss of UKGE with more accessible regional events.

Shame about this, best enduro races going IMO, best timing, best format, upto 3 days riding, 6 timed stages and seeding meant that you had clear track for your timed runs and if your paying to race that's really what its all about....this year the stages were better than ever as well.

I enjoy the Scottish but hate the long queues for a early start time, you should be able to select these when you enter, also the more technical stages can be a bit 'busy' due to all abilities and ages mixed in together.

Ard Rock is the benchmark though...superb!

The whole usp for enduro is it's dh for munters to unfit to race xc

i don't think i'd have been quite as blunt as you Rorschach, but i think you've got a point.

The guys and girls and the sharp end of the races are extremely good riders. often they're people capable of winning Dh races, they're just looking for something a bit different.

but it seems there aren't/weren't enough of those people entering the races. Steve Parr really didn't seem to want average punters at his races, which is fine, it's his baby, but here we are.

I dont agree with rorschach at all that the UK will be better off without UKGE and a national series

it means theres no stepping stone to the EWS the way there is with the BDS to WC DH and as pointed out before BDS rounds are more expensive than UKGE

Ultimately though without enough punters it couldnt work, possibly steve didnt look after the weekend warrior types enough, but I think it was that and the insurance and how it was handled that really was the problem

hopefully someone will come in and fill the gap, especially if the UCI get on board with enduro then BC might come back on etc

our national DH series does an excellent job of fostering talent and producing DH world Cup and Champ winners, I think we need that for enduro too.

Have to agree with most comments, think ive raced 7 or 8 in total, Innerleithen in 2012 being the first, and still one of the best races I've ever done. Hamsterly being the last, and potentially one of the worst.

Whilst the ukge were never going to get it right for everyone, they sometimes didn't help themselves with poor communication, such as race entry dates, and the whole insurance debate.

However, I do think the moves for full face helmets were a good idea. I remember riding the Dyfi round last year. Stage 1 had an open track bit nearer the bottom of the stage, properly flat out. I was in a half shell and genuinely would have really hurt myself if I had binned it. This is also where I agree with the insurance part as well. Although maybe they should have increased entry cost and sorted insurance themselves...allowing more one race entries.

Regardless, the series was amazing, and had a great time racing it. I cannot thank the UKGE team enough for their time and effort, and hopefully they will have success with their one off events next year. If the races were shit, they wouldn't have had 250+ people attending every event.

it means theres no stepping stone to the EWS

Full faces really do depend on how and what you are racing

Stage 1 had an open track bit nearer the bottom of the stage, properly flat out. I was in a half shell and genuinely would have really hurt myself if I had binned it.

This is also where I agree with the insurance part as well.

I think anyone considering running a national series should probably listen to all the views expressed.

I think this is the perfect time for British enduro to have a real think about what it wants and more importantly what the customer wants. I don't think it needs to be so heavily driven by EWS ideas as the UK has different requirements.

If UK Enduro wants BC on-board then it really needs to emphasis the XC side more than the DH. And I think that would also help bring in more weekend warrior types, albeit at the expense of annoying some who want super hard DH type courses.

If UK Enduro wants BC on-board then it really needs to emphasis the XC side more than the DH.

But you may as well just race xc then

It's sufficiently different from DH to make it worthwhile

I was in a half shell and genuinely would have really hurt myself if I had binned it.

Don't race on the road then, lycra shorts and t-shirt, stock helmets and speeds around 50 mph all done inches from people all around you.

Anyway it's your health if you are concerned you can always back off.

The other option in future is that if organisers don't enforce FF then the course design can ensure that stupid speeds are impossible.

So Dragon you want enduro races that are low tech and slow?

That sounds duller than xc !

perhaps you can rely on people making a judgement about a stage themselves?

It's sufficiently different from DH to make it worthwhile

So Dragon you want enduro races that are low tech and slow?

That sounds duller than xc !

Struggling to see how your version of Enduro is different to DH.

That 'non-peddaling Enduro' is basically multi track DH.

kimbers - Member

But you may as well just race xc then

except xc races are won/decided on the climbs.

So Dragon you want enduro races that are low tech and slow?

yes, that's exactly what he said.

I never said I wanted it to be low tech and slow. I just think if you want Weekend Warrior types and also BC support then keeping on emphasizing how Enduro is super hard and like DH isn't going to help.

I think this is the main problem no one actually can define Enduro properly. See how it all kicked off as a result of that Stage at the UK round of EWS. The UK needs to define what Enduro is, and that doesn't have to be what EWS is.

That 'non-peddaling Enduro' is basically multi track DH.

you can still have pedally bits on a technical stage, not to mention the 30-40km to get round the course, being fresh after a transition is really important.

the great thing about enduro stages is that you can mix the fast flowing, pedally stuff with harder techier stuff, thats what makes it so much fun

when everyone was bitching about stage 6 being too long at EWS Tweedlove this year I thought it was a good tough challenge, worthy of a world class event

ahwiles - Member

except xc races are won/decided on the climbs.

Guess you didn't watch world champs then?

nope, i was of course generalising, but you knew that.

what's a typical xc race lap? - 8k(ish)? 30mins(ish)? compare the time spent climbing against the time spent descending, and you'll get the point if you want to.

(hint) the point is this: Enduro racing, and Xc racing, are different things.

even an [i]easy[/i] enduro race, is different from xc racing, perhaps even more so...