[Closed] No DH WC mostly on 650b discussion?

Gwin was on a 650b Enduro frame. Some of the Syndicate riders rode (or at least practised) on 650 Nomads.

Gwin (and TB) were both on a 650b Enduro Evo.

Oops, I must have misheard Warner on Gwin's wheel size, but I definitely spotted it looked like an Enduro rather than a Demo. Funny, because his return to perhaps ominous form, on what I thought was a 26, seemed like an inconvenience to the 650b story.

gwin was on 650b

Id say its more of an inconvenience to specialized, he cant win on their flagship DH bike

but he can on the wheelsize they said theyd never make
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The SA track isn't particularly steep and is pretty pedally down the bottom. There's been enough debate about whether it should be included as it differs so much from other WC DH courses. What we saw at the weekend was likely not reflective of how the rest of season will pan out.
275 was just better suited mainly because of rolling speed I guess.
When it gets tech and steep there'll be more 26ers in the field I'm sure.

All the top riders have access to prototype tyres, but 650 race tyres like Schwalbe Super Gravity ones are available to buy in the shops now, so the pros certainly have them.

selaciosa - Member

When it gets tech and steep there'll be more 26ers in the field I'm sure.

Trek, GT and numerous others already on 650 DH bikes.

Santa Cruz still up there on a pedally course with 10" of travel and 26" wheels, them bikes must suck balls. 3rd and a mechanical for Bryceland (43rd without being able to pedal 16s down), still most of the field got beaten by a 40 year old on a 26" bike (Steve Peat 16th only 9s off Gwinn)

so yes 650b is awesome, 2nd only to being able to ride.

650 blah blah blah giant blah faster blah blah dead kitten blah but same blah blah enduro.
Santa Cruz dead kitten. Blah blah frame better and blah. But 29er blah but blah dead kitten.

I'd seen that photo of Gwin above since the coverage, but I still can't tell the difference between 26 and 650b without big tyre logos! Schwalbe are very helpful in this respect.

275 was just better suited mainly because of rolling speed I guess.
When it gets tech and steep there'll be more 26ers in the field I'm sure.

Which is odd as most people seem to be of the opinion that bigger wheels roll over obstacles easier and 26" is more fun*. 26" wheels may be stronger, but most riders seem to be riding on rims marketed to Jo blogs as "enduro" rather than DH.

*harder work.

Even if it's not faster, the market for new 26" bikes has apparently collapsed, was it 4 orders (or some equaly ridiculous number) for new SB66C's this year for the entirety of North America? Why would they spend hundreds off thousands of $ running a race team promoting something that isn't selling. The people buying new bikes want the best they can get for their £££, seeing as 650b is (within a fraction of a percent) the same cost to make as a 26" bike/component it's a no brainer, compared to the upgrade from SLX to XT, or X-fusion to BOSS which does have a cost associated with it.

kimbers - Member

but he can on the wheelsize they said theyd never make

And when did that happen?

thisisnotaspoon - Member

the market for new 26" bikes has apparently collapsed, was it 4 orders (or some equaly ridiculous number) for new SB66C's this year for the entirety of North America?

12.

Though that's not stopped team riders from choosing the SB66 over the SB75, which seems a bit awkward.

Not really, anyone with any sense can see the SB75 is a quick hash up to say they have a 650b switch link bike.

I can't imagine that thing with is wacky geometry makes a very good enduro race bike.

Why do some people on 26" wheels like to have a pop at other wheel sizes so much?

thisisnotaspoon - Member

the market for new 26" bikes has apparently collapsed, was it 4 orders (or some equaly ridiculous number) for new SB66C's this year for the entirety of North America?

12.

That was from dealers, though, right? Who are probably pushing what they think will sell. It's all a bit catch 22.

12. I thought you meant the difference in mm between the two wheels sizes. Could we not just have slightly bigger tyres instead?

Hob Nob - Member

Not really, anyone with any sense can see the SB75 is a quick hash up to say they have a 650b switch link bike.

You don't think that's awkward? "We're withdrawing the best bike we've ever made because everyone wants to buy this quick hash up. But our race team will still use the old one because it's so much better"

Interesting/geekish stuff here, Gwin was fastest on the rough, steep opening section, despite the short travel bike.

http://dirtmountainbike.com/mountain-biking-events/downhill/uci-world-cup/world-cup-downhill-2014-pmb-geek-stats.html

Interesting indeed, although they forgot to include a wheel size comparison. Too little 26 data to compare? 😈

Was it Sea Otter last year that we saw the first 650b DH podium result? Many were howling that it wasn't a proper DH course and that DH would remain 26. It's going to be interesting seeing how the WC downhillers get on this season in their bike choices, presuming they have them. How many of them are going to try getting away with riding their Enduro bikes?

There were a couple that had 650/26 bikes which could take both wheels with the thought of heading back to 26 for the rest of the season, the Nukeproof was just whet us poor buggers have been doing for ages and sticking a triple clamp on a trail bike and calling it mini DH 😉

I'd expect Gwinn to be back on the Demo next weekend as Cairns looks a lot steeper.

Not really wondering how many would pick enduro bikes though, this track is the exception not the rule.

anyway much more interesting than wheel sizes is how far off the pace Gee was, how much some of the kids have stepped up, what a great result for Manon and how there looks like there could be more than 2 winners of any round hopefully.

I'm pleased for Manon but Rachel did look genuinely ill.

One things for sure, all those guys better hurry up if they want to win because Loic and Troy are going to be unbeatable in a year or so.

Its not about the right tool for the job, its what the sponsor wants you to ride because they want to sell more to the public. Sounds like the OP has been taken in by it exactly as the marketing men would hope.

How many of them are going to try getting away with riding their Enduro bikes?

Once they get to the proper tracks - none.

Eh FunkyDunk? I haven't said 650b is better, I'm interested in what actually happens now that they're more widely available, ridden, and raced. Previously it was conjecture. Successful riders like Gwin was can sell a lot of frames.

Once they get to the proper tracks - none.

Poorly expressed re the Enduro bike option. Didn't they suggest Gwin's frame had been adapted to take the triple clamps? Maybe others might do the same?

All I heard was they chucked the triple clamps on it, not exactly a massive mod, they might have tweaked the shock mounts to keep the geo or dropped the travel in the fork a little.
Nukeproof had a modded bike that would probably sell well to the pinkbike kids with a MASSIVE fork and a normal bike.

On a wider note. If all of the riders chose what they actually wanted to ride what do you think it'd be not for what they were being paid to promote or ride for as a team?

I thought it was "win on a Sunday, sell on a Monday". Giving a rider a bike that you want to sell which they're less likely to win on seems like a massive marketing fail. How many Demos did Specialized not sell because of its (relatively) appalling results last year?

I like that Gwin rode a shorter travel bike but was fastest through the tech top section - and despite Rob Warner commenting on his slower line though the rocks. It didn't look pretty but it didn't look slow if you watch it back without prejudice! Brendog's Scott Genius looked like a huge pile of rubbish was through the same section.

When it comes to win on sunday, sell on monday, they'd rather have a win on an unavailable bike, than no win at all. Brand first then model, after all Specialized won't just want to sell Demos off the back of worldcup wins.

mikewsmith - Member

There were a couple that had 650/26 bikes which could take both wheels with the thought of heading back to 26 for the rest of the season,

Stevie Smith did that last year- though IIRC he said he just preferred the setup with 26 inch wheels, rather than preferring the wheelsize.

Specialized probably don't care what he's riding so long as he's actually competitive after last year.
They sell bikes because they are one of the biggest brands in the world and can hit some very competitive price points. Within hours of the win they had the press photo out on social media. All that matters is the Big S is up front.

Its not about the right tool for the job, its what the sponsor wants you to ride because they want to sell more to the public. Sounds like the OP has been taken in by it exactly as the marketing men would hope.

Eh? The sponsors want to win because it sells more frames. But they need to make a good product for the job (taking there is no 'best') in order to do that. They do back to back testing and put a lot of time into finding what they think is best. The racers train to win and don't want to be held back by having to ride a load of rubbish.

The margins at the top level are small and every little thing can help. And 650b is taking off because people are trying it and finding they prefer it. It's not a case of 'marketing men' pushing a product that no one wants like everyone suggests.

Mountain bikes have quite a limited life anyway, so I'm not worried about the day 26 will become obsolete. My bike will be well used and need replacing that day anyway.

Oh, and Sea otter was reported to be won on a 29 Enduro last year, not a 650b. This year is the year of 650b it would seem and I suspect there will be not much difference between them and 26.

Oh yes, and interested that Gwin was quickest on the technical top section. I always hear guys new to the sport saying how they need a downhill bike to ride this and that. 🙂

Don't think it had anything to do with wheel size though, but funny the win was on a Specialized enduro bike.

The margins at the top level are small and every little thing can help. And 650b is taking off because people are trying it and finding they prefer it. It's not a case of 'marketing men' pushing a product that no one wants like everyone suggests.

A mate in one of our LBS's can barely get any 26" frame in, they are just not being made in any quantity. The only exceptions are the older santa cruz stuff and a few other DH bikes. Most of the mainstream has gone over.

I always hear guys new to the sport saying how they need a downhill bike to ride this and that.

Do those guys have the skills of the likes of Gwin? If not, then they probably do need a DH bike

That is the biggest heap of crap I've heard in a while, the reason most new bikes are 650 not 26 is most people have stopped making 26. It's taking off in new bike sales as there is no choice if your not going to go 29. An industry has moved and people are convinced it will be the best of both worlds, DH is moving along as everything else is moving.

Yeah, clearly it isn't a competitive sport and they don't care what they ride. I bet if it wasn't for the marketing the winner would be on a 1992 rigid, dressed in florescent lycra 🙄

It's strange how 25mm difference in travel or top tube length or bottom bracket height can be accepted as making a big difference but if you own a nice 26" bike and don't want to replace it then 25mm makes no difference when it comes to wheel size, it's just marketing!

Or maybe I'm missing the point about DH and enduro racing - the winner is the one with the biggest grin at the finish, not the quickest, right?

didn't Nico do some testing*, and find that 650b wheels were about 2 seconds faster over a 3min course?

which sounds like sod all to us, but i bet there's a few racers from Peitermaritzburg who'd be glad for those 2 seconds...

(*as close as we'll get to a bike testing robot)

edit: 1 second.

(it DOES sound like sod-all to me, but i'm in no position to argue with NV)

ahwiles - Member
didn't Nico do some testing*, and find that 650b wheels were about 2 seconds faster over a 3min course?

which sounds like sod all to us, but i bet there's a few racers from Peitermaritzburg who'd be glad for those 2 seconds...

(*as close as we'll get to a bike testing robot)

Yep, and Clementz said something similar about his new Jekyll (he's a lot less of a robot though).

Exactly, puzzled as to why that's a "biggest heap of.."? Do you think these guys want to be riding 26" bikes but cannot get hold of them because their local bike shop is no longer stocking them?

Do those guys have the skills of the likes of Gwin? If not, then they probably do need a DH bike

A DH bike wouldn't help them, they just think it would.. 🙂

It's strange how 25mm difference in travel or top tube length or bottom bracket height can be accepted as making a big difference but if you own a nice 26" bike and don't want to replace it then 25mm makes no difference when it comes to wheel size, it's just marketing!

Actually it is only the radius of the wheel that makes any difference so it is actually a difference of 12.5mm is that 4.5% bigger?

I love my 29er but there is not that much difference between it and my 26ers so I find it hard to see how 12.5mm is going to make any difference.

Greg Minaar was on a 26er and he did OK.

On mass the industry is moving to 650b they are dropping 26. The 659 has taken off is mostly that there is no choice any more.
The DH world is part of the same industry they are moving across and are all bringing out prototype bikes in 650, when we get to a repeat track from last year we will obviously see the times tumble down.

A DH bike wouldn't help them, they just think it would..

So it helps their mental state then? Still works in that case 😉

while i like the idea of a Dh bike being a 'skills compensator'

my race results testify to both my epic crapness, and that i'm faster on a bike with less travel and bigger wheels (and so my dh bike is for sale - if it's slowing me down, even in Dh races, what's the point of having it?)

patriotpro - Member

Greg Minaar was on a 26er and he did OK.

he did, but Nico says he'd have been 2nd instead of 3rd, if he'd been on 650 wheels...

ahwiles - Member

didn't Nico do some testing*, and find that 650b wheels were about 2 seconds faster over a 3min course?

Yup. That was the point where lots of folks went "Seems legit- and that's basically **** all, why would we spend a fortune to change our bikes for that?" 😉 Though even then, there's no such thing as an exactly fair comparison between a 650b and 26 inch bike, just too many variables.

Racing is different but for consumers, you don't need to argue that 650b is worse or the same, you just have to believe it's a very minor improvement that requires an enormous change of components. I wonder what the bike industry would have given us this year if they'd not had to spend almost their entire r&d budget on literally reinventing the wheel (and tyre, and fork).

Have to say, I found it interesting that Nico's testing for flex showed that a less stiff bike (was it a Zesty?) was also faster- he went to the lengths of machining bits off axles etc to reintroduce flex. But yet it's still "3.4% more stiffs" that we see in the adverts and press releases. Nico's tests are only important when they align with the marketing I suppose.

It's the Nico stuff thats been extrapolated to say if he raced the TdF on 650 he'd finish 3 days before he started.

Who's Nico?

So the news is that the fast guys and girls are still fast regardless of what they ride?

patriotpro - Member
Who's Nico?

Burn him.

[img] [/img]

if it's slowing me down, even in Dh races, what's the point of having it?

Sounds like you could do with visiting rougher/longer/steeper/faster tracks?

didn't Nico do some testing*, and find that 650b wheels were about 2 seconds faster over a 3min course?

Thats Nico. A decent rider.

Bill who works in IT- fast in Mountain Mayhem and a keen road cyclist and runner wouldn't be anywhere near Nico.

It'd be like comparing a WRC driver and me. Two planets rotating, never meeting.

Who's Nico?

Possibly the rider with the most attention to detail/testing outside of the Honda team.

At one point he won a race by not pedaling, going against conventional wisdom he did some testing, tucked rather than pedaled on the straight before the last wooded section and made up way more time by not being knackered than he lost through coasting.

He rode for Sunn in the 90's, then when they went bankrupt started V-process. Had the record as "most winningest" DH rider ever, untill Peaty overtook him. But he was riding at the same time as Peaty, just retired at 20-something rather than still going at 40.

Basicly if Nico says he was 1s faster on a setup, it's 1s faster.

patriotpro - Member

Who's Nico?

seriously?

Nicolas Vouilloz.

no-one really knows how to spell or even pronounce his surname, but it sounds something like 'voo-yoh'.

he's french, but some french people i've met say 'nah, he's swiss innit bro'.

oh, and he's 10x world Dh Champion, he retired from Dh after everyone else begged him to, at the age of 28.

he's absolutely clinical, and cold, and methodical in his approach to being astonishingly fast on a Dh bike.

hora - Member

Bill who works in IT- fast in Mountain Mayhem and a keen road cyclist and runner wouldn't be anywhere near Nico.

It'd be like comparing a WRC driver and me. Two planets rotating, never meeting.

Same goes for almost single upgrade out there - we'd all be fine on Deore and steel, but lots of us are on carbon and XTR, for the simple reason that boys like toys.

And 650 has taken off because thre's a small benefit, and companies knew they could sell that small benefit, and us lot woul dbuy it. And they have, and we did. Pointless talking about it being a big marketing scam or being unnecessary when folks (and OK, blame it on the Yanks if you prefer) are battering down the shop doors to buy Bronsons and SB ****ing 75s.

It's customer driven as much as it's manufacturer driven - every new product needs folks willing to buy it. Mountain biking has those people in huge numbers (I'm one of the afflicted)

So nice said bike a was faster than bike b on one track. We're they both the same colour? Did one have bad news attached to it?

For something with some slight statistical merit 20 bikes, all the same colour with the size label not showing on the tyre over 10 trails. Then we can look at some conclusions.

.............and be a dick about it

The margins at the top level are small and every little thing can help.

Well, every little thing apart from wearing flappy gnar [s]parachutes[/s] pyjamas. 😀

Although....

[img] [/img]

I can't decide whether the 27.5 'revolution' was to help sell more bikes by making them slightly better than before or to give the #26forlife posse more reasons to be dicks?

I wonder what the bike industry would have given us this year if they'd not had to spend almost their entire r&d budget on literally reinventing the wheel (and tyre, and fork).

Exactly the same but with slightly smaller wheels. It isn't rocket surgery - drop the BB a bit, lengthen the chainstays a bit, move the headtube up a bit. 27.5 version of 26, done. You could steepen the head angle but that would go counter to the ongoing increased slackness year by year so you might as well leave it the same and gain more stability. If you're going to design a new frame why wouldn't you use a wheel which is a bit faster rolling, a bit smoother over the rough and a bit more stable?

If all the 4X and DJ frames were switching to 27.5 then that would just be marketing led mindless stupidity. But they're not, are they?

I love my 29er but there is not that much difference between it and my 26ers so I find it hard to see how 12.5mm is going to make any difference.

Logic fail. If you can detect a difference between 26 and 29 then it stands to reason that there will be a difference between 26 and 27.5.

Logic fail. If you can detect a difference between 26 and 29 then it stands to reason that there will be a difference between 26 and 27.5.

Not if the difference isn't linear. It's a much bigger jump between 26 and 29 than 26 and 650b.

Are people saying "oh no, my 26 is too slow, I need a 27.5"? More likely, when people want a new bike they are now getting a 27.5(or a 29) because that's the current thing.

I really fail to see why the "26 will never die" people get so worked up about it all really.

The other debate is 29 or 27.5 - Nino has done lots of testing and thinks 27.5 is faster.. 😉

Why do some people on 26" wheels like to have a pop at other wheel sizes so much?

Fear of the future

I watched with interest to see what Jerome Clementz would do for 2014 after winning the EWS on 26" last season, and given the fact he really is a very small dude (but frighteningly fast). He rode the last rounds of the EWS on the "new" Jekkyl with revised geo and linkage and capability to run 650B or 26", but opted for 26" as that was what he was used to.

Now he's had chance to really test and decide (it was left open to him by Cannondale), he's gone to 650B as he felt it a bit faster. This is a man like Nico, like Fabien Barel, who has made his living riding mountain bikes horrendously fast on all terrain. Of course there's some marketing activity to try and get people to commit to new bikes (they're companies not charities), but there does seem to be real evidence that there is something in it for the slightly bigger wheel being a bit faster for the top guys.

At "average joe" level, is ROI for bigger wheels/new bike as high as a skills course? Hmmmmmmm the jury is out on that.

I love my 29er but there is not that much difference between it and my 26ers so I find it hard to see how 12.5mm is going to make any difference.

Logic fail. If you can detect a difference between 26 and 29 then it stands to reason that there will be a difference between 26 and 27.5.

Logic Fail. 29er vs 26er = Little bit of difference (More wheel flex, more grip, momentum, wider turns)
26er vs 27.5 = so little difference that I can't tell.

I am sure it 27.5 is a tiny bit better sometimes but for what I do I would rather have a 29er for fast none hucking stuff and and strong 26er for hucking and messing around stuff.

chiefgrooveguru - Member

Exactly the same but with slightly smaller wheels. It isn't rocket surgery - drop the BB a bit, lengthen the chainstays a bit, move the headtube up a bit. 27.5 version of 26, done.

I don't buy it. Well, I'm sure it's like that in some cases, for those who were just prepared to knock out a fleet of lacklustre poorly developed bikes and spend all the r&d budget on videos of their bikes going fast. But to do it right is a serious investment of time and resources, for each and every bike or product.

A fast rider will be fast on any bike regardless of wheelside

legend - Member

Sounds like you could do with visiting rougher/longer/steeper/faster tracks?

sorry, missed this earlier...

i wish i had the time/money/skills to do that. i have insufficient resources of all of them.

when you're crap and slow like i am, a heavy, wallowy, Dh bike is of no benefit at all.

he [b]was[/b] absolutely clinical, and cold, and methodical in his approach to being astonishingly fast on a Dh bike.

fixed. remember nico's WC DH comeback.

was it one race or two?

It was Champery, and a lot of the currently (at the time) crowd didn't fare too well either