You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Quite an entertaining watch as Nick Craig - 53 and still finishing top ten in elite races - explains to Si Richardson from GCN how he stays stupidly fast. I think genetics might just possible come into it and I suspect that if I followed the exact same routine as Nick I'd be even slower than I am, but it's interesting that he's basically mixing up a high proportion of very steady riding with a few shorter, sharper sessions that seem pretty impromptu and unstructured as in 'I just get out of breath'. Hmmm...
It's funny as you'd expect CX racing to be require an awful lot of training requiring HIIT but in reality following (and racing against Nick Craig) and other top riders in our league and the UK, they do a lot of base miles riding. Unfortunately sadly lacking for me at the moment is any sort of time to get rides of more than an hour or 2 in. I found at the weekend that I really struggled with the pace at a CX race, partly down to lack of aerobic fitness from not doing longer rides, bad fueling, 2 bad nights sleep and recovering from covid and still having a cold. The proverbial wheels fell off. Might just have to get up earlier to get those base miles in!
Oh and proud dad moment when Nick awarded my daughter the Under 10 NWCCA league trophy last year!
Interesting watch, and seems to back up the "loads of Z2" stuff that's being discussed on the other thread.
Am I right in thinking he lives in New Mills? I recognised a fair few bits of where they were riding. And I'd be interested to know where Charlie's Cairn is.
Am I right in thinking he lives in New Mills? I recognised a fair few bits of where they were riding. And I’d be interested to know where Charlie’s Cairn is.
Hayfield.
Charlie's Cairn is on the descent from 20 Trees into Hayfield, roughly [url= https://www.streetmap.co.uk/map?x=404195&y=387052&z=115&sv=404195,387052&st=4&ar=y&mapp=map&searchp=ids&dn=561&ax=404195&ay=387052&lm=0 ]here (streetmap link)[/url]
The trails they used in the video were around Kinder Res - the steep cobbled climb is [url= https://www.streetmap.co.uk/map?x=405332&y=388172&z=115&sv=405332,388172&st=4&ar=Y,y&mapp=map&searchp=ids&dn=561&ax=405332&ay=388172&lm=0 ]this one[/url] and there was some filming in the woods and moorland just south of there too above Hayfield Campsite. Some of it was used in both directions.
I'll have to have a watch of this later. Saw him at the weekend racing cross, he was top ten and I thought not bad for a guy getting on, then it was pointed out he was not only leading his age category but also well ahead of many much younger than him as there were multiple categories racing at once. Main thing is though that the purple sparkle paint on his race bike is very very nice.
Interesting video. I do sometimes find them a little condescending, but then these riders are what I would class as pro-am at the very least.
I turned 40 last month, and I feel I wasted my 30's not getting fit enough to see me through the next 20/30 years of riding. I worry that I can't get fitter at this stage, or at the very least it takes a serious effort compared to doing it 10 years ago.
My other thing, about Z1/Z2 rides. For him and the likes of him, he can do more on his ride than me. I would literally need to ride at 12mph on the flat to stay in those zones and that's not easy even on the flats around Cheshire. I bet he can get quite a few climbs in and do 16mph+ and stay in those low zones.
@stcolin has the same problem I have in Zone 2, I have to go very slow. Keeping a steady mid Zone 2 on the turbo is around 14-15mph. I have been challenging myself recently to getting some up of the smaller hills hereabouts in Zone 2, just to see if I can. Well I can - at about 4.5mph!
Oh and I've left it a bit late in life to think I'll ever get up the cobbles at Kinder Reservoir.
Look on the brightside @stcolin, if you race in your 40s you'll be as fast as you've ever been, it will be peak performance. Guys in my club who went fast in their 20s are all sad they they're now old and slow, relatively speaking.
I turned 40 last month, and I feel I wasted my 30’s not getting fit enough to see me through the next 20/30 years of riding. I worry that I can’t get fitter at this stage, or at the very least it takes a serious effort compared to doing it 10 years ago.
After my entire twenties were spent clubbing in London, I started cycling/MTB on a social basis in the local woods on. Claud Butler Osiris hard tail aged 30. My first every sleepless in the saddle was with a social team at age 38 and 5 laps nearly killed me. I started self-training / racing solo at 43, and being coached at 46. Last year at 49 I was 9th National solo 12hr. I’m not a lifelong cyclist nor do I have great genes. It is possible. And yes it takes hard work, but so does everything if you want to be higher up life’s ladder.
Video bookmarked for lunchtime viewing!
I wonder if he also has to fit in his training around a day job spending 8+ hours sitting down in front of a computer?
I enjoyed that. Thanks for posting.
The key difference for him (and me) as we are getting older is the recovery which he talks about quite a bit.
At 55 I am not noticeably slower than at 45 (according to Strava) yet I am much more tired a few hours after riding these days.
I wonder if he also has to fit in his training around a day job spending 8+ hours sitting down in front of a computer?
From the video he does indeed, except he's sitting in a van
Hayfield.
Charlie’s Cairn is on the descent from 20 Trees into Hayfield, roughly here (streetmap link)
Gotcha, ta.
Nick Craig – 53
Jesus he's only 53? Saw that on my youtube feed and assumed he'd be about 70. Sorry if I'm being unkind but clearly life has been too... That said I probably look like Iggy Pop's gray bearded left testicle. I think it's after 55/56 the serious decay has started setting in for me. But we battle on...
So in summary:
a) He tends to do shorter races now
b) He can't produce the power he used to
c) 4.2wkg for an hour on Zwift is sweet spot for him, so there is of course genetics.
d) 2-3hrs several times a week just just riding along in low zones
e) Race Recovery takes 2-3 days / longer
g) He's doing unstructured structured training - low zones with efforts where required.
f) Yoga / stretching /core strength is important
g) I'm 50, its all downhill from here 😀
h) All riding / training is enjoyable
The big take away for me was "not basing happiness with the sport on results". That something I've very much fallen foul of.
Jesus he’s only 53? Saw that on my youtube feed and assumed he’d be about 70. Sorry if I’m being unkind but clearly life has been too… That said I probably look like Iggy Pop’s gray bearded left testicle. I think it’s after 55/56 the serious decay has started setting in for me. But we battle on…
That's not Nick Craig, that's an older digitised image of Simon Richardson (the GCN host)
Jesus he’s only 53? Saw that on my youtube feed and assumed he’d be about 70. Sorry if I’m being unkind but clearly life has been too…
If you're referring to that pic up there, that's an aged picture of Simon Richardson, not Nick!
If you’re referring to that pic up there, that’s an aged picture of Simon Richardson, not Nick!
Fabulous.
Poor Nick!
My other thing, about Z1/Z2 rides. For him and the likes of him, he can do more on his ride than me. I would literally need to ride at 12mph on the flat to stay in those zones and that’s not easy even on the flats around Cheshire. I bet he can get quite a few climbs in and do 16mph+ and stay in those low zones.
That's the thing, it's not staying in your current Z2, it's about making your current Z2 capabilities greater than they are now. It's essentially the old adage of "It doesn't get easier you just go faster".
It all ties in nicely with the modern crop of mega talented Pro riders, as linked elsewhere its basically a 80/20 split of 80% of you time spent in Z2 and 20% in Zone 4 & 5 as nothing is ever won in Z3 and there's no point having an amazing top end if you're on your arse cos you can't spin along all day.
My other thing, about Z1/Z2 rides. For him and the likes of him, he can do more on his ride than me. I would literally need to ride at 12mph on the flat to stay in those zones and that’s not easy even on the flats around Cheshire.
Me too (also Cheshire). Si Richardson's zone 2 power of 250 watts is my best FTP! If I give long Z2 sessions a go I think it will have to be on the turbo.
He does come across as a rather nice person...was an interesting video. I saw him at the CX race in Falkirk and did feel star-struck...he was a very regular face in the MTB press in the 90s, but still seems to be rather handy on a bike.
Me too (also Cheshire). Si Richardson’s zone 2 power of 250 watts is my best FTP! If I give long Z2 sessions a go I think it will have to be on the turbo.
Motor pacing for amateurs! Get my wife to drive along at 15mph in front of me. I'm sure lungfuls of diesel fumes from a 12yr old SUV won't do me any harm 🙄
Or, god forbid, have we finally discovered a legitimate* reason to own an e-bike? So you can do Z2 everywhere despite headwinds, luggage, hills?
*JOKE!
Well maybe my lowly FTP of 210W says a lot then (according to Zwift). I do get the point though, I just need to keep riding at those low zones and it will sort itself out in the end.
If you’re referring to that pic up there, that’s an aged picture of Simon Richardson, not Nick!
So he's only 38? It gets worse... Where's the embarrassed face emoji when I need it?
Or, god forbid, have we finally discovered a legitimate* reason to own an e-bike? So you can do Z2 everywhere
You be on to something there. A bike which by the use of a power meter, motor and braking requires you to maintain a fixed power irrespective of terrain - provides resistance on the flat/downhill and assistance uphill.
You be on to something there. A bike which by the use of a power meter, motor and braking requires you to maintain a fixed power irrespective of terrain – provides resistance on the flat/downhill and assistance uphill.
Ah bugger, you mean you couldn't do it as standard? I was getting excited at the prospect of using an e-bike as an ultimate Zone 2 commuter, I could easily do 6hrs a week of relatively nice roads in nice countryside, all at Z2 and saving myself a packet in train fares and diesel.
You don't *need* the resistance on downhills surely, they just wouldn't count towards the accumulated time in Z2?
Ah bugger, you mean you couldn’t do it as standard?
I dont have one, so I cant confirm, but I understand that the Blevo app for specialized ebikes allows you to set a target heartrate and it will vary the amount of assist to maintain that heart rate.
That’s the thing, it’s not staying in your current Z2, it’s about making your current Z2 capabilities greater than they are now. It’s essentially the old adage of “It doesn’t get easier you just go faster”.
This - when I started coaching my coach showed me some of Froome's data which indicated he rides Z2 during Tour stages at 280W.
Nick Craig has lapped me more than a few times on a mtb or any other type of bike he's been riding. And is a proper gent to, no shouting swearing just a smile and a kind word. I came to the conclusion however hard I train I'll never be as fast as he is because 30 years ago he was twice as quick as me. Fast forward he still is. Yes the right training helps but it's what your born with that matters most.
Nick Craig has lapped me more than a few times on a mtb or any other type of bike he’s been riding. And is a proper gent to, no shouting swearing just a smile and a kind word.
One of the 24hr races at the Malverns, he caught me up in the middle of a technical narrow section and he just sort of disappeared from behind me and reappeared in front of me. I have no idea of how he managed an overtake through the ferns and rocks to the side of the narrow trail without any hint of an issue. 🤷🏻♂️
Smooth, effortless, a few words of encouragement from him and he was gone.
HOW?!
Smooth, effortless, a few words of encouragement from him and he was gone.
HOW?!
I think you're hit the nail on the head, like he says in the video he doesn't smash it up to features like sand as h knows he can ride it better than those around him. I recall an interview ages ago about him when he rode the Olympics etc and he never made enough power to go as fast as he does - in off road terms - the man can find grip where there isn't any.
This – when I started coaching my coach showed me some of Froome’s data which indicated he rides Z2 during Tour stages at 280W.
That's where everyone is in awe of the Pros in races, on the flat and transition stages unless they're in breakaways they're just spinning along in Z2. The difference is they're elite human beings with genetics beyond about 99.9% of the rest of the human population. Bit like those marathon runner chaps, if you're a reasonable runner, even a good club runner try and see how long you can hold 2hr 10 marathon pace for - it's a 4:57min mile BTW The average Elite (better than 95% of all runners) marathon is 2hr 50 give or take.
They're just on another level and only a very few genetically gifted athletes are capable of such things, but those who are also have to have the will to win otherwise it all means nothing.
You don’t *need* the resistance on downhills surely, they just wouldn’t count towards the accumulated time in Z2?
Yeah, you drop to Z1 on the downhills so it wouldn't count. Still, ignoring that I suppose everywhere else you could use an ebike to maintain Z2 based on HR. Hmm, checks bank balance.
Hmm, checks bank balance.
Yeah... I would need to sell at least three other bikes 🙄
What's putting me off trying it on my normal bike is the hill immediately outside my house, the prevailing headwind and all the luggage I would need to carry. Would need gravel gears and about 2hrs to cover 30km in Z2 ☹️
the man can find grip where there isn’t any.
This is also true on Elite MTB, with the likes of Nino racing around on Maxxis Aspens in the wet whereby the rest of use would choose - and likely fall off - a Mudtastic X1 Super quad compound thing,
Enjoyed that.
On the back of that, anyone recommend a good beginners yoga course/YouTube video for a non flexible 54 year old?
The difference is they’re elite human beings with genetics beyond about 99.9% of the rest of the human population.
plus drugs
I enjoyed the video and he's a very likeable bloke. But my main take home message seemed to be that talented riders are talented. This was amplified x2000 when they were talking about MVDP doing a lot of zone 2 training and then winning races, I mean it's interesting but not sure how it applies to me
Abi Carver has done some free content over on Pinkbike
https://m.pinkbike.com/news/how-to-release-chronically-tight-hamstrings-abi-yoga-2016.html
But my main take home message seemed to be that talented riders are talented
Echos my thoughts, Nick is a lovely chap fo'shure, but I can't do the training load he does now, and I'm very much not blessed with his genes.
This was amplified x2000 when they were talking about MVDP doing a lot of zone 2 training and then winning races, I mean it’s interesting but not sure how it applies to me
Because whatever your ability on a bike, a healthy amount of Zone 2 (whatever your Z2 is) training will improve your ability to ride longer, further and even faster.
I'm no super human, very far from it indeed, but when I decided to train for the European 24hr MTB champs in 2018 I set myself a target of riding 300km in 24 hours, which i thought was a reasonable target for a 41yr old dad of 3 with a full time job. To try and hit that target I did 10-12 hours a week, of which around 80% was Z2 chugging along, by way of commuting to work & steady evening rides in all weathers (nothing less than 2 hours) and 2 to 3 turbo sessions a week in the fabled Sweet Spot. I achieved my target - well 280km in 22 hours as they suspended the race for 2 hours due to a huge thunder & lightening storm - and walked away with Bronze in V40.
After that the most noticeable thing was how "easy" it became riding with my regular riding buddies, it was almost like there was just a reserve of energy that I could tap into as and when required.
So it applies to everyone, a good base fitness level and aerobic engine makes everything easier.
I enjoyed the video and he’s a very likeable bloke. But my main take home message seemed to be that talented riders are talented.
+1
Nick Craig is a genetic freak of nature - born with a huge aerobic engine. He was and always will be an Elite rider, regardless of whether he takes up smoking 60 B&H a day or training consistently.
All you can really learn from that is to be born with the right genes....
1hr 10 min this morning, heartrate was suspiciously low but I think I was in the conversational intensity again, every few minutes would try reading off the wee elevation chart my POV video of the Stelvio Pass handily provided, could read it fine but had to concentrate on breathing, actually lowered my 'power' a wee bit.
Tried a blast of '5 minutes almost FTP' at the end, surprisingly tough although I hadn't really mentally prepared myself for it and was pretty hungry as had been riding fasted. Will try it again next time.
I dunno, i think the underlying ethos was good. Do stuff cos you like it - dont obsess about the numbers. Even Nick Craig had to admit he was no Frischnecht so i find it pretty easy to come to terms with never being Nick Craig ;P.
All this Zone 2 this, Zone 2 that...
Where might one go to work out what the heck you are talking about and how to measure it?
Do stuff cos you like it – dont obsess about the numbers.
Which is great if you want to enjoy riding, but if you're, say a mid pack sport rider, trying to get to Expert or aspiring to scrape into Elite one day, then you're going to have to train like a bastard for years and then you might just scrape into the lower echelons for a year or two before giving up disillusioned (as everyone around you has better genes).
Whereas he can 'mess about a bit' and still rock up at the NPS and come in the top 5....
Zone 2 = steady away, lad
Smooth, effortless, a few words of encouragement from him and he was gone.
HOW?!
He actually hovers around an inch above the ground. I once watched him float up one of the rocky, slabby bits on the Hayfield side of Jacob's like some sort of weightless hologram. He was incredibly, preternaturally smooth and barely even breathing. I don't believe he is human 🙂
The thing wasnt about how to become a better rider though it was about staying fit while getting older
Not NC, but I did a horribly wet Mayhem at Eastnor where you had to climb the muddy, rutted landrover track. Everyone was walking, even those that could ride it were being baulked by the walkers. Except Tinker Juarez, who floated up, and then when held up by someone, did a trackstand, side hop into the rut, few pedal strokes and then bunny hop back up onto the ridge in the middle. While thanking and encouraging all around him.
Where might one go to work out what the heck you are talking about and how to measure it?
If you can hold a conversation, just, or, as someone else put it, if you were on the phone and the person on the other end could tell you were exercising, that's the Z2 training zone.
Where might one go to work out what the heck you are talking about and how to measure it?
https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=zone+2+riding
I found that I naturally rode 80% of the time in zone 2. I always use Strava to log my rides and look at the data when I get home so got a chest HR belt a few months back and used it for about 20 rides. Every single ride had me in zone 2 for at least 80% of the time. So good enough for me to know I don't need to measure it and just carry on riding as I was.
I ride to heart rate and find that most of mine is tempo or threshold. Recent flattish ride with a couple of significant hills to account for the Z5! Just under 3 hours overall, so about 10 mins in Z5. I also think I've got my Z5 set a little low, cos that's hard / painful but not absolute max sprint uphill effort, OTOH I'm nearly 100kg and 53 and just keeping going uphill once gradient goes into double digits is substantial effort.
Z1 - 10%
Z2- 20%
Z3 - 40%
Z4 - 25%
Z5 - 5%
but that's mainly because I ride at groups at edge of my ability and generally lead them, so often sat on the front. Also explains why I'm generally ****ed by the end of the ride.....
Z2 - for me HR between about 105 and 130 seems silly easy. But, maybe I should do more of it.
I'm kinda confused by these two threads as my interpretation of HR Z2 from when I was marginally interested in these things definitely didn't include heart rates in the 150s. Seems like Z2 has lots of different meanings to people. I used to find it difficult to remain in Z2 uphill or even when I started to have fun on a trail, it required conscious effort to lay off the power. Didn't do many long Z2 rides however, but can remember being tired by the end of them. Wasn't serious training.
Edit: like the numbers jonv posted above.
Except Tinker Juarez, who floated up, and then when held up by someone, did a trackstand, side hop into the rut, few pedal strokes and then bunny hop back up onto the ridge in the middle. While thanking and encouraging all around him
I remember doing the solo cat the year he one, bomb hole at the end of the lab after 22 hours or so I could just about hold onto the handlebars and hope not to crash, he came through with big air crossed up one handed!!
That year was particularly grim!
My max HR is about 165-170, have not tested for a while. So for me Z2 is 'officially' between 100-120, but I can get that doing my shoes up before going out (mind, that also gets me out of breath)
Just watched that. Apparently he feels like he's done something when he does an 'A' pace partner ride for an hour! 4.2w/k, I can't manage that in a 20 min crit city race!
Where might one go to work out what the heck you are talking about and how to measure it?
You could watch this.
Or check out British Cycling's blurb on training and zones starting here.
I’m kinda confused by these two threads as my interpretation of HR Z2 from when I was marginally interested in these things definitely didn’t include heart rates in the 150s.
Indeed. I'd always believed Zone 2 was just a fraction of your Max HR - that's what my Garmin seemed to suggest when I set it up a few years ago. But I learnt last week (from another GCN video) that Zone 2 is actually a fair bit more complex than that and probably not best measured with HR. It's measurable in lab but a reasonable estimate is if you can chat away while riding at that intensity, but have some difficulty finishing long sentences. For me that is a surprisingly high HR, often more than 150 as you say.
EDIT: Link removed - it's the same one just posted immediately above.
It's also nice because it gives me an excuse to commute in a more relaxing manner, rather than treat it like a TT.
It’s also nice because it gives me an excuse to commute in a more relaxing manner, rather than treat it like a TT.
Interesting point worth picking up on - most people ride far too hard on their "easy" rides and not hard enough on their "interval" bits which results in you always going around at Z3/4 without the ability to build the endurance in Z2 or develop the high end in Z5.
A mate did RideLondon based entirely off commuting and crit races - he'd done no long rides whatsoever. His week would be steady away commutes with some crit races in the evenings - Crystal Palace, Lee Valley and Hillingdon usually, sometimes only one of them, sometimes 2-3 in a week.
He absolutely smashed RL, under 4hrs and it was entirely off his ability to go into the red for short periods and then just sit there at Z2 and recover. His bunch racing skills will also have played a part, it allowed him to just sit in the front group doing Z2, go deep on the hills and then recover again.
I found, using RPE and the conversation test, it's around 145bpm for me.
My zone 2 according to BC is 115-141bpm. So being just slighly above that seems about right if you are intending to work at the limit/aerobic threshold.
So if I'm doing zone 2 for an hour, I'm trying to keep it around 138-144bpm. Feels ridiculously easy to start, after an hour, breathing remains fine, but you can start to feel it slightly in the legs
Never going above zone 2 would feel easy but if I remember the video was referring to majority of time in zone 2 so you can still go above it for say 20% of the time.
No, I think if you go above z2 for that long, you ruin the session.
80/20 is the sessions, not the time split. If you were lucky and could fit in 5 rides per week. 1 ride would be fast/hard. The other 4 would be all zone 1 or 2.
Okay, must have not been paying attention when watching it. A total ride in zone 2 woudld not be possible for me as I don't have gears and getting up some of the hills would mean walking up...
When I've done Z2 stuff in the past, I've walked up hills before. 👍
I think (may be wrong here) but the benefit of Z2 is that it still leaves you enough energy to then do the intensity on top, not that a solid 4 hr Z2 ride will illicit a greater aerobic adaptation that an unstructured 4 hr ride, just that you can probably hit higher numbers when doing some intervals a day or 2 later.
No, I think if you go above z2 for that long, you ruin the session.
Roughly 1 min over Z2 (depending on which other zone your venture into, higher = shorter) needs 35 mins to recover back into Z2 mitochondrial development due to lactic shuttling*
*Approx and I think thats right. You can google the real stats.
I'm starting to wish I'd bought shares in zone 2 when they were still affordable...
A mate did RideLondon based entirely off commuting and crit races
Yeah I've found commuting is pretty great for base. And then techy MTB rides for me seem to be a mix of easy stuff and then techy climbs where I'm really on the limit which are basically max HR intervals.
I've definitely lost some top-end fitness from doing less MTB recently.
A mate did RideLondon based entirely off commuting and crit races
Unless he was pushing the front end, thats probably the easiest 100m he'll ever do. Its very flat in the main, had very smooth roads at the start and end and with so many riders there's a draft to be had at every opportunity.
I’m starting to wish I’d bought shares in zone 2 when they were still affordable…
😀😀😀😄
And Craig says just go out and ride our bikes and then the fun sponges arrive to tell us are not doing zone whatever properly
He also says do 80% in Zone 1 touching Zone 2. That's lower than the STW fun sponges.
He clearly say s lots of stuff and it is not always consistent but the key things he says for me are that as you age you have a a lower ability for big bursts of power but can ride a similar overall speed but recovery times are longer after the ride. All things that I have found.
He also says do 80% in Zone 1 touching Zone 2. That’s lower than the STW fun sponges.
He's talking about polarised zones, so z1 includes z2 and a bit of z3.
Confused yet?
That's if you're using the 3 zone model, rather than the 5 or 7 zone model. Zone 1 (3 zone) would finish just above zone 2 (5 or 7 zone).
Aerobic threshold/lower threshold is just above the top of traditional zone 2. You need to be below this threshold, but close to it. Which makes sense.
Which is actually a nice place to be training in when you find it (conversation test). It's not piss easy, but not tempo.
This reminds me of a fell running club I used to run for. I was nowhere near the elites but I was fairly decent at local level (top 10%). I only ran a couple of times a week but I had dogs and consistently walked up hill every day. Ideal aerobic base for fell running. People couldn’t understand why I was quick off the back of so little running, but the reality is that it is hard to fell run at zone 2. The elite guys did loads of extra, tedious, low intensity miles.