You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
I've been back looking at new frames lately, specifically steel ones, for no other reason than I like the way they look. Anyway, there are a fair few frames that are high-end, price-wise, that are made from 4130 chromo - Chromag Samurai, Production-Privee Oka/Shan, Singular Swift. They're all lovely looking bikes and I've never met anyone with one who isn't happy with it. And they say things like 'custom drwn double butted', 'Japanese seamless', 'true temper aircraft grade'. But, compared to 853 (which you can get for the same price) aren't you basically just paying a lot of money for some relatively weak, basic and heavy steel? Economies of scale/small companies or am I doing 4130 a disservice and it's all about what's done with the material?
My personal experience ......
The different steels make very little difference to the ride of the frame.
IMHO its all about the design of teh frame rather than the material. You could have the nicest tubing in the world but if its poorly thought out and put together ....
I guess the exception to this may be pre 2000 frames where wafer thin premium steel was used to create fantastically light albeit flexible steel frames tat rode noticeably different to bog standard cromo frames.
I have two 853 frames and they are only a smidge lighter than their less premium brand tubing shed dwellers.
I would rather a well thought out frame than get too hung up on what teh decal says is made of.
Good thread on 853 here with some input from people who actually know what they're talking about rather than 853 pixie dust mythology
http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/full-reynolds-853-custom-frames
I guess it's mainly strength I'm wondering about. I've seem to have an annoying habit of cracking them.
Curtis should definitely be on your wish list!
Having been through the same thing recently, I wouldn't get hung up on it.
I looked at the following:
Cotic Solaris (853/4130)
Chromag Rootdowm (Custom chromoly tube set)
Transition Trans Am (Chromoly)
Stanton Sherpa (Reynolds 853, 631 44mm head tube and Reynolds 525 seat and chainstays)
Plus a few non-steel frames like the Parkwood, Fireline and the Banshee Paradox.
I ended up with the Chromag and I am very happy with it.
They will all be strong enough and assuming the angles are right, things like fork and wheel choice will make far more difference to the ride than than a few ounces of steel mass.
I've already got my wish list (currently consists of an 853, 4130 and an aluminium frame, all roughly the same price). The 4130 leads it based on angles and looks (yes, I am that shallow) but I didn't want something that might potentially crack earlier than the others (they're all designed for similar purposes) hence the concern.
Here's something that will make your brain hurt:
Reynolds 520 and 525 are the same and vey similar (interchangeable) to 4130 and are Chrome-molybdenum steel. They can be welded or brazed, but should be heat treated afterwards, so shouldn't really be used for brazed frames that aren't treated afterwards. Reynolds 725 is also exactly the same chemistry, but heat treated as a tube (i.e. before you weld it), so I've no idea what the point it, Reynolds say you can weld this but not 753 (see later), but if it's welded does it not need heat treating again, in which case surely it's for brazing? Reynolds 531 is similar mechanically to 520/525 but is manganese-molybdenum which means it can be brazed but not welded, 753 is the same as 531 but heat treated first, so suitable only for very delicately brazed frames with silver solder. 631 and 853 are the same chemistry but 853 is heat treated first, I'm at a loss why 631 isn't better if you heat treat it afterwards. T45 is a british standard for steel, it's chrome-manganese (although sometimes called carbon-manganese, no idea if/why that's correct, all steel has a high carbon content), similar strengths to 4130/520/525 etc except this one doesn't need heat treating after welding, which is strange as Curtis used to use this in their UK made brazed frames, then switched to 4130 for their Tiawanese made and replicas which were welded!
http://www.soulcraftbikes.com/frames.php?frame_id=4&tab_id=5
This guy puts it well. I wouldnt be worried about it. You buy from a quality builder then you get a quality frame. You pay peanuts .........
letmetalktomark - MemberIMHO its all about the design of teh frame rather than the material.
Yeah, but one can influence the other. If your design suits gaspipe but you use 853 in the same profiles you'll get a very expensive frame that rides like it's made of gaspipe... but ****y steel done right can make a difference and probably should, else why use it? The steel should be means to an end not just a marketing matter.
Always seems like longer travel/stronger frames benefit less from posh steel- more metal, thicker tubes, less fairydust I suppose, 853 lets you build strong with less metal but I reckon there's diminishing returns. I [i]loved[/i] my Soul but the 853 Bfe I had was a bit of a lump frankly. Identical geometry and quite a lot of the same parts too, but night and day to ride.
There's a value consideration with some of these expensive-frames-with-cheap-tubes though, whether or not you believe 853 would have been better for the job than 4130- the ingredients are much cheaper and easier to bake with so why is the cake so expensive? When you see the likes of a ROS9, £900 for 4130! At that price I wouldn't just expect top quality sugar, I'd expect it to be dusted with heroin.
PS I don't own any steel bikes, nor a beard.
I'd be giving serious consideration to a Ritchey.....