[Closed] Newish bike broke. I got injured. What to do?

When did you last check the pivot bolts, what torque did you tighten them to.

It will be in the front of thr manual that you should check things before riding.

And that the bike isn’t intended for racing, I would imagine.

Do you have legal; cover with household insurance? British Cycling membership?

Sorry you were injured. Suck it up though biking/events are dangerous

Had a car crash because the suspension failed catastrophically ? Suck it up, driving is dangerous.  Really?!?

Is the fault well documented?  It could be argued that if they warrantied the same thing once before then they have little ground to say it wasn't the bike at fault rather than you.  That said I don't think many cover racing. Out of interest, what sort of terrain was it when it went.  Crashing down a rocky descent or the classic just riding along?

I'd approach them and see what they say. I'd definitely ask for a different model if it's being replaced again.

I think you need to decide if in your heart of hearts if it feels unreasonable that the bike broke. I ride a lightweight carbon full suspension bike in the lakes. There are moments when you can be outside what the manufacturer would have expected.

On the other hand it could be a legit failure. Maybe post up some bits and we can see if we can work out what happened. If it’s a snapped bolt then the face of the break can tell quite a bit.

The manufacturer is a massive German company.

Not much point dancing around these things when your post history makes it very clear who they are but...

Document your injuries, photos etc. now, they may be irrelevant in the long run but you can't get them later.

Speak to a solicitor, one which specialises in PI, they'll probably have the initial chat for free.

Get an independent LBS to inspect it and give you a written report, ideally just tell them it's broken, do not explain it's PI linked etc such that it might prejudice their appraisal, all the better if that shop also sells the big German brand in question, expect to pay a nominal amount for this.

Then take it the lbs who supplied it to inspect the bike and give you a report, explain why, do not expect to pay.

From there on follow solicitors advice. (Which may well be suck it up, it's not worth the time)

Slater Gordon would be worth speaking with (I found them very good when I got T Boned by a bus), this would be outside of their normal type of work I'd expect

Do you have CTC/ Cycling UK membership? (PI legal cover is part of the package)

Don't use Rapid. I defended a claim brought in similar circumstances by them and they were hopeless!

Hiya. It’s a Cube Stereo 140 Race.  It is roughly six months old. It was on a section of Land Rover track, mildly descending on gravel. I checked the bolts last week and the bottom pivot was fine for tightness. The pivot bolt appears to have rust around the edges. It’s had an easy, well looked after life from me. I was cycling beside someone, hear a crack, then I’m eating dirt.

Whether I was racing or not had no consequence, it wasn’t being used any differently to a normal mountain bike ride or any faster or in harsher conditions. If anything the race terrain is milder than my typical ride.

It is completely unreasonable that the part broke. It’s designed for trail riding and the shop have told me it’s designed to take big hits (which I have never given it).

Just wondering if anyone knows how to get bikes checked independently and how to proceed legally as I have no idea.

it says race in the name

I'm not sure a bike check will be needed - you can present a broken bike and evidence that the same happened previously.

I'd go with a specialist firm I think, more likely to do no win-no-fee, advise you on what your injuries are worth, and whether you have a good case or not. No harm in an initial chat with any firm.

And I wouldn't hold out any hope that one individual suing them will get them to pull the bike off the market.

Suck it up+1

It is completely unreasonable that the part broke. It’s designed for trail riding and the shop have told me it’s designed to take big hits (which I have never given it).

Speaking from a failure point of view it's unlikely that it fails not unreasonable. Things snap that could be down to manufacturing defect, design flaw or a few other factors. Most of these will go their entire life without failing, some will snap early in life and others will snap at the end of their life.

This is the dispassionate part of it. Stuff fails and failures have consequences.If I wanted to get all arsey from a manufacturing point of view then I'd want to know how you tightened it, where the calibration logs of your torque wrench were and your service records to ensure you did not over tighten or under tighten it.

As far as racing as a term many manufacturers recognise that racing and riding are generally 2 different environments and offer shorter warranty on raced frames as they tend to have a harder life.

I can also see why the bike shop may say they are supporting you but want somebody else to asses the part as they probably want to be separate from this and any blowback on them.

IANAL but I would have thought in order to pursue a claim against them you would need to prove that they were at fault here.

https://www.crownofficechambers.com/2008/04/28/ide-v-atb-sales-ltd-2008-ewca-civ-424/

That said I don’t think many cover racing.

I don't think a warranty would have much bearing on a claim for compensation.

Maybe if the OP was doing a huge huck to save time in the race (were you OP? I'm guessing not.) - sure, everything has a limit. But this doesn't sound like that's the case. Don't expect it to be straightforward, there will be arguments (successful or otherwise) about whether maintenance/inspection has been adequate, etc.

I would say whilst an inspection from another LBS may be useful, it's not the same as a proper engineering investigation, which even the manufacturer may not be well placed to perform properly. Keep all the broken bits you have. These can be used to determine the source of the failure, which, with an appropriate inspection (i.e. not an LBS) could give an indication of fault.

It may be also that, say, the manual says to inspect things every ride/week/month/year, however wherever the failure happened may not be inspectable without totally stripping the bike down, and further to this the critical crack size (that you'd have present one inspection for it not to lead to failure prior to the next) may not be visible to the naked eye (or may even not be detectable) - in which case it's inadequate to expect the user to inspect it to guard against failure.

Oh and another thing you might want to consider is whether you'd actually sue the company or the shop - which would be awkward but potentially necessary, and might put you off.

Of course the buck would pass through the shop to their supplier and ultimately the manufacturer, but...

Nothing should fail on that course there is simply nothing that approaches bike testing.

No advice but if it was on sunday* i hope you have warmed up?

*Was it you coming in on a quad?

Agree with everything Al (and the OP) have said. An awful lot of real tools here saying suck it up and trying to justify the failure when it's clearly a design/manufacturing/assembly fault to have happened exacty the same way twice actually JRA.

Good luck

A friend of mine suffered life changing injuries in a road bike failure in a race.  The forks collapsed one side and she could have been killed, she actually broke her back and still has limited movement now.  The discs are fused so she can still compete but cannot do some flex moves in pilates for eg.

Anyway, she did not just suck it up, but claimed against the manufacturer.  An independent expert inspected the forks, carbon, and found a manufacturing defect.  Something to do with layering carbon, not too sure tbh, anyway the manufcturer agreed before court action and made a v generous award.

I can find out the process if you want, she had to sign a confidentiality agreement so I cant be any more specific.

The award was well into 6 figures so don't get fobbed off, or listen to the biking is dangerous brigade.

out of curiosity, what was the point of failure?

definitely not in the suck it up camp, but stoner might be along at some point hopefully (or someone could point this thread out to him) - iirc he closely followed, and reported  back here about, the Pinder/ Fox lawyer tabs case- might give you some insight into the difficulties potentially ahead.

EDIT: found the thread, had thought it was on the old forum  https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/pinder-v-fox/  if interested

I would go after the manufacturer.  Sounds like negligence to me.  I don't think it anything to do with the shop

It will be a tricky case to make tho -- expert reports, evidence of other failures, maintenance schedules etc etc

I would be looking to the lawyers recommended by british cycling to see what they say.  I'd be hoping for an out of court settlement.  Its also complicated by the international aspects

Guessing you are near Glasgow, if you want an independent view you could ask Ben Cooper (Kinetics). As a builder of custom frames etc (see latest Singletrack mag) he's clearly an expert in bike structure. He's on the forum as bencooper but doesn't seem to have posted for 6 months.

Got to say the shock mounting bolts on these bikes do unscrew themselves easily and you end up with the loads going through one side of an unscrewed bolt. The (steel bolts I think) are supplied dry from what I remember. I used blue thread adhesive and it proved not man enough for the job! The stronger red adhesive seems to be working.

Most pivot bolts, for any bike, usually come supplied with dried up blue thread adhesive. I always clean it off and apply fresh! You have to be careful how you apply it, to prevent getting it all over the bolt shank and inside the bushings/hardware. I<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">t's better to put a tiny bit on the bolt thread, wipe it off, then apply more to the thread in the frame, if accessible!</span>

Chester - it isn't "dried up" - It is meant to be dry and activates when you screw the bolt in.

http://www.threadlocking.co.uk/loctite-dri-loc.html

Yeah I know but I always put fresh on regardless. Force of habit, from experience of using old sealants/chemicals that have sat around on shelves. I'm happier applying fresh knowing it will work properly first time!

What actually broke? The pivot bolt or the frame/swingarm?

The 2016 and 2018 frames are completely different so I'm guessing it's more likely to be the pivot bolt.

I would go after the manufacturer.  Sounds like negligence to me.  I don’t think it anything to do with the shop

Warranty cases go through the shop, the shop deals with the supplier, the supplier deal with the company. This one might get escalated a bit above that due to the personal injury nature of it but it's still to all intents and purposes a warranty claim.

The shop have the contacts within the company to escalate it and more importantly from the OPs point of view, it's one person in one shop they have to deal with, not being passed around "a massive German company".

Yes tell us what broke, the frame? How much do you weigh?

To me a 140mm bike should be expected to be ridden on demanding trails, otherwise what's the point of 140mm travel.

Engineering departments in Universities often get brought in for this kind of case. If you get a good solicitor they should have the contacts necessary to get the cause of the failure investigated.

Also bear in mind the front triangle frame design of the 2018 140 is almost identical to the 150 stereo, which is the bike raced at the EWS by Greg Callaghan etc. If there was an inherent fault with the bike I'd expect them to find it, they don't exactly ride gravel roads.

If it was one of the pivot bolts that has snapped, how many miles has the bike done? Have the pivot bolts and bearings been serviced in that time? If there was rust on the bolt, sounds like it may have either come loose allowing water ingress and/or may not have had much/any grease in the bearing, and it may have seized? We're the bolts/bearings checked and greased by the bike shop as part of the PDI checks?

Not trying to defend the manufacturer, or the bike shop - but I am a little concerned seeing as a stereo 140 will be my next bike next year...

I've also heard of Stereo bolts breaking, although my own 140TM Stereo has been fine, and has done everything from the Lakes to the Mega, and is three years old.

What actually broke? Was it the main pivot bolt? Was it loose, if you know?

I think a personal injury claim will come down to whether it's a known fault or whether it could have been a 'big hit' that caused it. Everything can break, if you hit it hard enough. That's gonna be hard to argue against.

Hi everyone. It is the pivot bolt on the drive side. That bolt is hard to get to but appeared tight when I checked it last week.

It seems to have sheared on the transition from the swingarm to frame. I have to say I haven’t done huge miles, maybe not even medium miles and the hardest trails I have ridden ar the reds at Comrie Croft.

I keep the bike clean and dry stored in a garage which is part of my house. The rust shows on the little part of the lip of the bolt that is visible from the outside. I have experience as a materials design engineer in automotive so have my own opinion about that.

Regarding the law it appears that action has to go through the shop, even though they have done nothing wrong. The bike has had its follow up service only weeks ago and nothing was mentioned. It has been a joy to ride. The shop (Dales) are brilliant and have given completely unbiased advice.

@garryfmacdonald Was that you walking with your rear mech hanging off ?

Crazylegs

Consumer protection act stuff responsibility is the shop.  Warranty is over and above this and is provided by the manufacturer or importer not the shop

this is not a warranty or consumer protection act claim.  Its a negligence claim and as its a manufacturing defect being claimed then its nothing to do with the shop

IANAL but I doubt you are either

OP - you need real advice.  the negligence is not on behalf of the shop.

Have you been able to check the bearing(s) in the frame and swingarm? I can only think if it's sheared between these then the bearing may have been seized in the frame and/or swingarm, and over time the twisting force then acting on the bolt has fatigued it and resulted in it shearing.

Were the pivots dissembled, cleaned and re-greased as part of the service?

I keep the bike clean and dry stored in a garage which is part of my house. The rust shows on the little part of the lip of the bolt that is visible from the outside. I have experience as a materials design engineer in automotive so have my own opinion about that.

Well if you do get legal advice to go forward make sure you get a good worst case cost estimate.vs a potential payout

“identical to the 150 stereo, which is the bike raced at the EWS by Greg Callaghan etc. If there was an inherent fault with the bike I’d expect them to find it, they don’t exactly ride gravel roads.”

I believe, having asked someone in the “know” that Cube sponsored riders get through a few frames in a a year!!!! Chatting to him and his brother at the weekend and it’s amazin what goes on behind the scenes that we, the general public don’t get to here about. When a shop owner won’t stock a brand then there must be something in the wind......

I had ocassion a few years ago to have a discussion with Kona tech dept re the bolts they fitted to the auld Dawg frames. I ignored their advice and fitted bolts I knew were not going to cause me any further issues, and have had none. I am no engineer but am a time served motor Mach and 40yrs working as a factory fitter........ irrelevant I suppose

When a shop owner won’t stock a brand then there must be something in the wind……

Yep, I know a few reasons where shops have dropped brands, everything from normal business relations, to betrayal, arguments, finance and getting pissed off with distributors. Which one is it?

Sorry, but if you're serious you REALLY need some proper advice. There's some ill-advised but well meaning comments, and some utter tosh. You need someone who does this day-in, day-out to advise*.

A half-decent solicitor will be able to point you in the right direction, and will probably act on a no-win, no-fee arrangement for you too.

*<yankspeak> full disclosure, IAAL but don't do PI work</yankspeak>

Said frame issues(guys race in both DH & Enduro)

Said frame issues

Yep, I know a few reasons where shops have dropped brands, everything from normal business relations, to betrayal, arguments, finance and getting pissed off with distributors. Which one is it?

when i used to work and run a workshop many many years ago the reps would think nothing of starting rumour x and y  complete horseshit some of it the next one would come in and do the same

I can’t agree with the “suck it up” plan. Newish components failing in normal use is something I thought we said goodbye to 10 years ago, especially safety critical things like pivot bolts.

If everyone just sucked it up, there ain’t as much urgency for them to actually fix these issues.

Personally if you want a a payout out I wouldn’t go shouting from the rooftops about it, manufactures know how Cannondale = crack and fail type labels can murder a brand, they’ll want an out of court settlement, but not if the horse has already bolted.

I can’t agree with the “suck it up” plan. Newish components failing in normal use is something I thought we said goodbye to 10 years ago, especially safety critical things like pivot bolts.

Happens across all industries though

Personally if you want a a payout out I wouldn’t go shouting from the rooftops about it, manufactures know how Cannondale = crack and fail type labels can murder a brand, they’ll want an out of court settlement, but not if the horse has already bolted.

How much can they afford to push?

That bolt is hard to get to but appeared tight when I checked it last week.

What does this mean?

An 140/140 full suspension mountain should be designed for really rough trails and jumps and stuff...

One of my bikes is an 150/150 Cube Stereo 27,5+ aluminium bike. Model year 2017? Bought the frame for little money at the bike-discount.de and use 2,6 inch rubber. No issue with jumping, downhill stuff. Very rugged design.

Interesting part: the design detail which failed at the PO's bike is very different at this 150/150 Stereo compared to the 140/140 Stereo designs (at least the older 27.5 aluminium bikes).

As far as I'am informed: the 140/140 bike have issues with exactly the bolt the PO is talking about. It's the drivetrain sided lower pivot bolt (which is hidden behind the chain ring). The 140/140 uses (at least the older aluminium versions) left and right a stud / bolt which carries the bearing. No thru axle. Don't like this detail at all.

Other Stereo bikes - like my 150/150 (2017): conventional design with some sort of "thru axle".

My guess: the 160 mm travel Stereos will have this - conventional thru axle design - as well (but don't know anybody biking a 160 Stereo)

The PO talks about a model year 2018 Stereo 140/140? Sounds like Cube kept this "single bolt/stud" design also for the new 140/140 bikes then? Just an opinion: this design depends too heavily onto "Loctite" glue. Don't like this design detail at all.

additional to above, quickly checked this:

Is the POs design like this:

https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/cube-bearing-screw-set-main-bearing-stereo-140-27.5-fritzz-180-27.5-my2015-461883

? (Or similar?)

No conventional thru axle / main bolt?

Issue with the design: depends too heavily onto the assembly quality. Plenty of Cube 140 bikes (aluminium bikes?) which don't have issues at all. But many which have the issue the PO describes. In my opinion: the risk of this design is too high (also used in many other full suspension bikes).

Design of the 150/150 Stereo more "standard"? Even my Bossnut V2 has the "thru axle"/"main bolt"....

It's not the worst I've seen but it's definitely not the best either! A bit worrying if the OP has done two model years the same.

Sent mine off some decent sized flat landers without issue so far and I'm no lightweight at 13 stone, all muscle of course. Hmmm I'll keep an eye on it.

The award was well into 6 figures so don’t get fobbed off, or listen to the biking is dangerous brigade.

It depends on the injuries, the ops are nothing like your friends.

Not surprised to see the usual victim-blaming. It's your fault for being stupid enough to believe that the manufacturer had the competence and conscience to design and build the bike properly.

A mate did some work for a LBS building up bikes and said Cubes were hateful things with very poor finishing on the frames. Lots of swarf, random weld blobs and burrs that made building them more involved. He just felt they were made very cheaply with little care.

Not surprised to see the usual victim-blaming

Maybe some realism too. Personal injury unless it's life changing and involving a decent anoint of financial loss won't be that much. Legal fees could eat lots ans still require you to prove negligence.  It's very risky if you will be faves with costs.

A mate did some work for a LBS building up bikes and said Cubes were hateful things with very poor finishing on the frames.

Mmmhhh. My posts above, the 150/150 Cube frame I bought from bike-discount: finest quality aluminium frame. Bit of a piece of art in my opinion. Very, very happy with the bike - no issues at all.

If the POs design Stereo 140/140 is like this (aluminium bike):

https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/cube-bearing-screw-set-main-bearing-stereo-140-27.5-fritzz-180-27.5-my2015-461883

? (Or similar?)

...then this part of the design (with the aluminium Stereo 140) is not the most rugged way of doing it. Don't like this design. And there are enough Stereo 140 owners which had problems with this design.

What I don't understand so: the PO talks about a 2018 model. Aren't these 2018 bikes now all carbon frame bikes?

And those have the "thru axle / main bolt" design - or? Means the "conventional" design...

I'd definitely be taking the legal advice route. As mentioned above - probably best with the no win no fee types. My cousin (who is a lawyer) recommends Irwin Mitchell. They'll obviously gobble some of any compensation that you may get, but at least you'll know that it won't cost you anything to get the ball rolling.

Definitely don't suck it up. Race or no race, the part shouldn't fail and the fact that there had already been recalls would indicate not fit for purpose / a degree of negligence on behalf of the manufacturer.

Get onto them immediately and they'll put you in touch with a medical assessor. Document any bruises, scrapes, hospital, physio appointments that you have before they heel. Photograph the bike as clearly as possible.

If you've no case, then the solicitors will tell you not to waste their time. If there is, then see it through.

Definitely don’t suck it up. Race or no race, the part shouldn’t fail and the fact that there had already been recalls would indicate not fit for purpose / a degree of negligence on behalf of the manufacturer.

This is a bold leap. There will be a long and complicated legal argument about failure rates, modes and likely outcomes there along with how somebody has tested and assessed the design.

There's been no mention of any recalls, and AFAIK cube haven't issued any for the 2018/19 stereo HPC frame.

2018/19 stereo HPC frame.

These carbon frames: main bearing is - as far as I know - conventional thru axle / main bolt design.

The critical design: as far as I know only some aluminium frames - like (older?) Stereo 140.

And critical in a sense of "depending onto Loctite" / to much onto (factory) assembly quality.

Many Stereo 140 bikes out there which don't have an issue. But too many bikes where the "critical" bolt came loose (happens in the first half year of biking - or newer. The "critical" bolt is on the drivetrain side, hidden behind the chain ring...).

No idea why an company uses such a critical design on one aluminium bike like the (older?) Stereo 140 and at the same time better designs on the Stereo 27.5+ 150/150 or Stereo 160.

PO's bike: 140 Stereo aluminium - or carbon? Carbon: no issues there (?).

where the bolt snapped should make it obvious whether it had significantly loosened first or not (assuming the bolt type as above) - it would probably sheer in line with where it entered the frame, if there is more than the bearing's thickness of thread on the head end of the snapped bolt, it was loose. If there's the same amount, then it was probably tight at time of failure.

where the bolt snapped should make it obvious whether it had significantly loosened first or not (assuming the bolt type as above) – it would probably sheer in line with where it entered the frame, if there is more than the bearing’s thickness of thread on the head end of the snapped bolt, it was loose. If there’s the same amount, then it was probably tight at time of failure.

Good point.

What I know from some older Stereo 140 bikes which had problems with the main bearing: there the bolt on the drivetrain side slowly came loose. And if you are really lucky you start feeling some "play"/"twisting" when pedalling. If not the whole suspension fails and makes a mess.

PO's bike: no idea.

This is a bold leap. There will be a long and complicated legal argument about failure rates, modes and likely outcomes there along with how somebody has tested and assessed the design.

Maybe - but that is where the solicitor comes in. To at least question that.

A personal experience - I wasn't racing, but I was commuting on a road bike of just a month or so old. Out of the saddle on a climb  the crank arm sheered off sending me heavily OTB and into the road. thankfully other than bruising and concussion, nothing broken except for a lot of wrecked kit (rucksack, phone smashed, helmet split like a melon, shorts, jacket torn). They'd cross threaded the crank arm when building it, judging by the metal thread coil that I removed from the crank arm

Company in question replaced the bike for a brand new one, gave me brand new kit (new for old) and paid for all repairs to my phone etc. I signed a waiver to take it no further. I expect it could have gone a fair bit further had I taken the legal route.

Hopefully you've spoken to a solicitor now, but please do keep us posted on this OP.

Ignore the "suck it up" crew, it's mainly the forum's resident bell end contrarians telling you that.

Company in question replaced the bike for a brand new one, gave me brand new kit (new for old) and paid for all repairs to my phone etc. I signed a waiver to take it no further. I expect it could have gone a fair bit further had I taken the legal route.

In that case negligence was evident, it was an easy prove and an easy win. the lawyers their side will have done the sums and made you an offer.

for the OP it's proving the case that will be tough and expensive, and not at all certain from this point. He also needs to be aware that the answer will be not worth it, unless you have cash to burn getting the moral victory is not always the most sensible course of action.

It's not being contrary to also point out that things can fail and assuming nothing will fail is not a good place to start from.

for the OP it’s proving the case that will be tough and expensive, and not at all certain from this point. He also needs to be aware that the answer will be not worth it, unless you have cash to burn getting the moral victory is not always the most sensible course of action.

It’s not being contrary to also point out that things can fail and assuming nothing will fail is not a good place to start from.

Hence my point about the No Win No Fee types. Why wouldn't you explore it? It won't cost you anything to do that.

Hence my point about the No Win No Fee types.

Who only take on cases that they feel are a definite win. That or they make you pay for an insurance policy in case they don't.

@garryfmacdonald:

you mention two bikes: a 140 mm fs 2016 and a 140 mm fs 2018. One the Stereo aluminium - the other carbon? Or both Carbon?

140/140 mm fs suspenion bike: you should be able to do any mountain bike race with it.

And the Stereo 140 in Carbon frame version is indeed used in many races - one example is EWS...

The pivot bolt design is very different on the aluminium and the carbon bikes. The 140 mm aluminium bike has a "known" issue with one bolt.

On the 140 mm Stereo carbon bikes (at least the older ones) the pivot bearings appear a bit small. But no idea if there are problems with those. Would be neat to know which bikes you are talking about.

Who only take on cases that they feel are a definite win. That or they make you pay for an insurance policy in case they don’t.

You have to do that anyway.

I’m not going to write too much but this current issue is an ‘18 model so Carbon Front end, aluminium swingarm.

Once I know what has happened with an independent expert type mechanical advisor I’ll let you know.

Cheers.

Thanks.

Understand.

O.k. - the carbon frame Stereo.

What I saw: problems with (older) 140 mm aluminium versions. Your design is different from that (Carbon frames mass produced in Asia: maybe even no "design issue" - more a quality control issue? Proper quality control on carbon parts is difficult. But when the part is critical for the safety the manufacturer has to invest into quality control - no matter how difficult it is!)

Good luck!

If the bolt failed you probably want a metallurgist to look at it and verify it was the 'correct' grade (steel) bolt according to the frame manufacturers specs. Also check if the bolt was defective itself either on a micro (too much slag) or macro scale (fatigue or corrosion), and if the threads were machine correctly or were even the right thread form.

I assume you have both parts of the bolt still?

If it was loose when it failed then the portion still in the threads will still be loose.