[Closed] New XTR what's the point?

I think the advantage is that you can put it on a SRAM 11-speed cassette. Otherwise, I am mystified. They didn't even make an 11-42.

+1 Northwind.

I think shimano should have released new 10 speed mechs and 11-42t cassettes. They would have cashed in, instead the likes of One Up are.

Why do you need a 42 tooth sprocket? It's working fine for me with a standard free hub body. Mech is lower profile and cassette isn't black.

IMHO the big advance with 2015 XTR isn't the mechanical group (which they're still pushing as 2x11/3x11, hence smaller range) but the electronic one.

[i]Why do you need a 42 tooth sprocket?[/i]

To get up stuff that you can't with a 40 tooth...

If XTR was available now & I didn't have SRAM i'd run Shimano, given the choice.

The smaller range on the cassette is a bit of a non issue. If you're spending all your time in the big ring on the back you should probably stick to a double anyway.

Can someone tell me the point of the new XTR. It has no advantages over 10 speed :/

I'm mystified by this question. It has 11 gears and therefore has the advantage of not having an annoying gap in the gearing when riding along the canal.

It may well be heavier but then probably isn't made of cheese.

Happy with my hybrid set up as per Northwind's comment, works very well.

Shimano aren't trying to beat SRAM with XX1, they're offering a broader solution, they'll capture more of the OEM market and other areas where people just don't want single ring. This forum isn't wholly representative of global mountain bike buyers. It's potentially quite a shrewd move.

njee20 - Member

they'll capture more of the OEM market

Not convinced that's the case, SRAM 1x11 is everywhere on new bikes

most new bikes have the option of XTR or XX1, it's the customers choice.

They really don't.

No, I'm not convinced either.
If you can afford XTR, then the one downside of the sram system (cassette cost) isn't going to worry you.
I think XTR will sell poorly.

You might think that we're not representative of the market, but at the XTR level, I think we probably are.

11-40 cassette seems fine to me and I'll take Shimano over SRAM every time, hope it filters down to XT at some point.

I'll take Shimano over SRAM every time

You might think that we're not representative of the market, but at the XTR [s]for posing in the trailcentre carpark[/s] level, I think we probably are

I think you overestimate STW's demographic, in the actually using XTR for lots and lots of riding and racing all over the world area I think STW is very poorly represented.

But, it goes up too eleven.....

Agreed. And single ring still isn't as prolific in mainland Europe or Asia, which are huge markets.

I'm surprised Shimano didn't make xt and SLX 11 speed at the same time, as they have with 9 and 10, that would've given them more ground. I still can't see it being a mistake for them, although I personally wouldn't buy a whole XTR groupset.

Northwind / njee20 - are you running an XD driver / Sram cassette and XTR 11 speed set up?

For me, one of the major benefits of the shimano solution is the ability to use a normal freehub, and the block is made out of a variety of materials to extent life. It should last a lot longer than the Sram offering.

Northwind / njee20 - are you running an XD driver / Sram cassette and XTR 11 speed set up?
For me, one of the major benefits of the shimano solution is the ability to use a normal freehub, and the block is made out of a variety of materials to extent life. It should last a lot longer than the Sram offering.

I am yes, XX1 cassette/chain/chain ring, XTR mech and shifter. You're wrong about the cassette though - XTR uses ti on the larger sprockets to save weight, but it's softer and less durable than steel (hence it's only used on the largest sprockets). XTR is a chunk heavier than XX1 (even X1 is lighter) [i]and[/i] less durable, not more. Only place xx1 falls short is the alu 42t sprocket, if you spend loads of time in that then it will wear more quickly. But then you should fit a smaller chainring or go double IMO.

That's borne out in my experiences too - XX cassette lasted better than my 10 speed XTR, and XX1 is lasting well.

I think XTR will sell poorly.

We're not the target market though; racers are. And they'll stretch to Di2.

When XT Di2 comes out (presumably for 2016), I'll definitely be looking at it.

I don't think that many will. Racers aren't as fickle as most think, and mechanical is lighter in 1x11. The target market for Di2 will be rich weekend warriors!

Di2 will take a while to gain a foothold anyway, it looks a bit crap unless your frame is compatible.

Racers aren't as fickle as most think, and mechanical is lighter in 1x11.

Perhaps not, but the perception is that at least some have a degree of sponsorship.

At the risk of sounding like a luddite, 11 speed on an mtb just seems like senseless one-upmanship. Mtbs get filthy and kit wears out, how long before the tight tolerances required to properly index an 11 speed cassette are FUBARed by a little grinding paste?

Yes I do run 8 & 9 speed for off road and commuting!

My issue with 1x is tired legs on a long hilly day. Happy with 1x on my local trails but the Chilterns are short on long climbs. Nothing beats a granny ring when the legs have had enough and the destination is a way away via hills.

I've seen the xtr cassette seems to be coming in cheaper @ £140ish on the German site.

tbh with some of the deals on the shifter/rear mechs there's only a small difference In going for 11 speed xtr over boggo 10 speed (well for 1x)

I'm still deciding sram over shimano but tbh some of the cheap solutions like one ups radr and zee mechs are so good they do make you wonder if your just going for bling.

Perhaps not, but the perception is that at least some have a degree of sponsorship.

Degree being the operative word. Few racers get more than trade prices, and mechanical at retail is cheaper than Di2 at trade!

I'm still deciding sram over shimano but tbh some of the cheap solutions like one ups radr and zee mechs are so good they do make you wonder if your just going for bling.

Well, no, of course you're not. If it's worth it is a separate discussion, but 11 speed isn't merely 'bling', there are differences - smaller gaps and what not.

Did look at di2 but wow it's not cheap and for my fav 1x setup seems a bit overkill for a non racing pleb like myself.

Yes I do run 8 & 9 speed for off road and commuting!

In my experience 10 speed Shimano is better than 9 speed in the filth you are worried about. An extra cog does not necessarily mean that it's going to behave worse.

I prefer the feel of Shimano shifting. Somehow less plastic feeling than SRAM. I prefer using my existing wheels without changing the free hub. I also prefer more evenly spaced gears.

Therefore, I am in the minority and have just purchased new XTR 9000. I am a spinner rather than masher, so will be pairing it with a 30 tooth at the front (ironically an XX1 chain set with Wolf Tooth direct drive chainring, spinning on a Chris King bb). I will admit that the new XTR chain set is gopping!

The advantage I can see of the SRAM 11 speed options (which I don't run, by the way) is the 10t sprocket. It means for us less fit chubsters we can run a smallish single ring with a 40/42t out back, but then not spin out on fireroad/flat sections. I run a hope T-rex with a 32t and just often wish for one smaller sprocket.

I am a spinner rather than masher, so will be pairing it with a 30 tooth at the front

The SRAM cassette would've afforded you a lower gear with a 28t chainring, and still a higher gear at the other end. Even more suitable for spinning! Doesn't negate the gaps, but it does seem with current parts that a hybrid of the two brands is quite desirable.

I prefer the feel of Shimano shifting. Somehow less plastic feeling than SRAM. I prefer using my existing wheels without changing the free hub. I also prefer more evenly spaced gears.

That's the main reason right there njee.

That's the main reason right there njee.

It was a general comment really, although I must admit I don't understand how someone can spend quite so much on bikes and not want to spend £70 on a freehub body! Each to their own though! I did say you can't negate the gaps, but as you admitted you're very unusual in caring about that 😉

shortcut - Member

Why do you need a 42 tooth sprocket? It's working fine for me with a standard free hub body. Mech is lower profile and cassette isn't black.

You could just do a 10 speed 42 or 40t conversion which is cheaper.

traildog - Member
I'm mystified by this question. It has 11 gears and therefore has the advantage of not having an annoying gap in the gearing when riding along the canal.

with the 16t cog a conversion doesn't have a gap.

deviant - Member

11-40 cassette seems fine to me and I'll take Shimano over SRAM every time, hope it filters down to XT at some point.

But it isn't a case of Shimano v SRAM there are four options. 11 speed XTR, 11 Speed SRAM, 10 Speed shimano conversion and 10 speed SRAM conversion.

A 10 speed XTR 42t cassette is lighter than 11 speed shimano as well.

The riding over here in Singapore isn't exactly steep, so the minimal gaps are more appealing than the absolute lowest gear.

Having come off single speed for the past few years, frankly having gears at all will feel nice!

But it isn't a case of Shimano v SRAM there are four options. 11 speed XTR, 11 Speed SRAM, 10 Speed shimano conversion and 10 speed SRAM conversion.

Well no, there are far more than that - as you can run a hybrid. As said.

So you can have a 10-42 cassette with Shimano shifting.

with the 16t cog a conversion doesn't have a gap

Of course it does. Not as big as if you don't put in a 16, but there are still gaps at an awkward place in the cassette.

A 10 speed XTR 42t cassette is lighter than 11 speed shimano as well.

But heavier than a SRAM 10-42.

You are right njee I'm not saying a converted 10 speed is the ultimate solution. If I had the money I would run SRAM 11 speed and I understand why those cassettes are that price, they are stupidly light. So far I haven't really noticed any gaps in 11-42t conversion, but I guess what I really meant is with the 16t there is a more even spread of gears.

I have gone 11 speed shimano XTR with the cassette, some very mucky rides and the shifting was spot on. Agreed, I would have bought the XX1 cassette if I had known the weight of the XTR, but I ordered it back in April for a bargain price!

njee20 - Member

Shimano aren't trying to beat SRAM with XX1, they're offering a broader solution

All they have to add to the range is one slightly different cassette though, and they'll half the gap with SRAM and widen their market. It's weird.

neilforrow - Member

Northwind / njee20 - are you running an XD driver / Sram cassette and XTR 11 speed set up?

Nah, all scabby old stuff. But if I was doing a new drivetrain today, XTR on SRAM would be a definite contender.

All they have to add to the range is one slightly different cassette though, and they'll half the gap with SRAM and widen their market. It's weird.

Mmm, but that's what I mean - they're not trying to compete with SRAM, they've got the angle of "none of the nasty gaps you get in our competitors cassette", which appeals to the likes of Solarider. It's about being more different.

I agree it seems odd on the face of it, but XX1 can't have caught them by surprise, so M9000 is different by design, not by accident.

The weight is a non issue for me. It's a matter of grams on a FS that weighs circa 30lbs already, always amusing when people fret over small weight differences when they've willingly changed from a normal seat post to a heavier dropper post, gone to wider (and usually heavier) bars, chucked 100ml of gunk in each tyre to run tubeless and strapped everything but the kitchen sink to their backs to go for a ride....but yeah, a slightly heavier cassette makes all the difference!

As njee has said, the XTR cassette looks more refined with closer ratios. That appeals to me more and I'll take that over a 42t on the SRAM item...also bear in mind that mainland Europe hasn't got our obsession with 1 x whatever and a 40t XTR on a nice big double and bash will probably sell more units on the continent than a 'rad to the gnar' 42t sprocket does in the UK.

can anybody explain why no one will make a 10sp 10-42 cassette,i know there is a reason i just dont know what the reason is. 😳

SRAM and Shimano didn't do it because they want you to buy a new drivetrain. Much less incentive for them to release backwards compatible stuff. A few small suppliers produced some

(if that sounds cynical- Shimano insisted their 9-speed mechs couldn't possibly do 11-36, right up until the day they released an 11-36 cassette for 9-speed. But they still kept it to the heavy-as-a-brick deore cassette, because offering a light one would have discouraged people from buying 10-speed)

[url= http://www.thebikevillage.com/cassette/5873-cassette-leonardi-racing-general-lee-942-9-42-10v.html ]Leonardi[/url] do a 9-42, there's reference to a 10-42 on various sites, but can't see one for sale.

[i]It's potentially quite a shrewd move.[/i]

I agree, none of the development cost of that cassette that SRAM have had to bear, and a massive amount of flexibility for riders from every sort of niche and country's fashion. Isn't Germany the largest European market for MTB? I wonder what Shimano vs SRAM sales are like there, I'm not certain the Germans are massively keen on single rings are they?

The Germans favour double chainsets as far as I'm aware.

nickc - Member

I agree, none of the development cost of that cassette that SRAM have had to bear, and a massive amount of flexibility for riders from every sort of niche and country's fashion.

Except it's not. I don't really get this- like I say, they literally had to add one cassette size, in order to massively widen the appeal and prevent internet experts going "dur". And it's not like that tests their resources, how many different cassettes do they make currently? Instead they've decided to reduce their target market.

I really don't see what they gain by that but it's obvious what they lose.

Jeez guys that's not the spirit !!!!! It doesn't need to have a point it's shiny and its new and looks bit different to the old stuff 😆

I'm very tempted with the idea of a 2x11 XTR with XX1 cassette hybrid (probably a 26-36 on the front) - The range of a triple, but the smooth/fast shifting of a double!

I'm still waiting for the cranks to arrive in the country.

Got everything else ready to go.

Still unsure what crankset ratio to order for a 29er (double)

MM

honourablegeorge - Member

njee20 - Member
they'll capture more of the OEM market

Not convinced that's the case, SRAM 1x11 is everywhere on new bikes

I would imagine they will take a big chunk out of the top end market where the only competitive options for the last years product cycle were XX1+rockshox.

XTR Di2 + the new fox's would get my money if budget wasnt a concern.

cheers. it sounds as its just marketing then, off to the shed for tinkering time with a hammer and grinder

36/26 Double Race and Trail are both in stock in 175mm.

Where's that?

In response to the OP's original question, the point is that it's bloody awesome, far nicer to use than anything SRAM have ever made and it's nicer to use than the 10speed stuff Shimano make. Simple

As per the OP's original question:

a) It's not Sram.

b) It means Shimano have an 11sp cassette to sell to those that seem to think it very important.

The end.

If I had the cash I'd be going XTR over XX1 or whatever it's called all day long.

with the 16t cog a conversion doesn't have a gap

The gap is bloody irritating for me as the shift in gaps goes 2,[b]3,3[/b],2,3. I find those bold 3's extremely annoying

A 10 speed XTR 42t cassette is lighter than 11 speed shimano as well.

Well the 11-36XTR is 270g and the hope 40t is 74g. You take a tiny cog out which might weigh 10g leaves a net 334g which is same as the XTR 11-40 at 330g.

I'm currently wrestling with whether to go 1x11 with M9000 shifter, mech and XX1 cassette. I can get the range I need with a 30t front but the 17% jump from 42t to 36t is a potential deal breaker. Longest climb I did in 2014 was 345m and I remember being grateful for smaller cadence jumps on that. I think the approx. 1/2lb of weight saving doesn't make up for cadence issues.

For doing really long distance on my Spearfish the M9000 34/24 front makes a lot of sense paired with an XTR 10speed 11-34 cassette if you can run 10speed chains on M9000 rings

OMG! How on earth did you lot cope before this non-problem arose? 😆

Good contribution, well done. Are you gonna post that on every single thread?

MM - Madison.