[Closed] New trails at Swinley

Perhaps they miss the air ambulance since the jump gulley was closed 😉

LOL based upon previous Swinley ambulances as above, I'm not sure it's a great plan in honesty !

http://www.trailteamswinley.com/

Hit the "Plans for 2016" menu for maps etc.

Looks interesting...

I like the idea of building properly advanced trails, but worry that these might be a bit too much of a step up from the Red and all that'll happen is people build chicken lines around the gaps.

Having said that (and I said this when the Blue/Red were first built) the Blue and red are a lot more advanced than most people that ride them. With fairly significant gaps and drops if you ride them, just that 99.9% roll them. So if you do want progression, try riding Red 15 and 25 as they were intended.

P.s. dig day this weekend, so if you want to moan, turn up with a spade and do it in person.

I like the idea of building properly advanced trails, but worry that these might be a bit too much of a step up from the Red and all that'll happen is people build chicken lines around the gaps.

There was some chat on FB about a "Red+" - TTS are listening to what people want and will take it on board.

The more people that get out and dig, the faster it will get done...

the Blue and red are a lot more advanced than most people that ride them.

didn't you fall off on and break your wrist on the fire road??

didn't you fall off on and break your wrist on the fire road?

😆 cheeky!

I know someone who broke his leg walking off a badminton court

Interesting

Agree on standard of current trails - ridden hard they can catch out the unwary, even bits of the blue IMO.

Would make sense to have chicken lines, even just from a liability perspective. I haven't been there for a while, but hope they don't do too much with the old "advanced" area. I liked it as it was/is - just slightly hidden (?) but there to explore if you want. I enjoy the two routes on the RHS with the narrow starts for example

True, if the blue and red is ridden properly you can carry some great speed and get some reasonable air time. Amazing how quickly you can catch people up too.

Personally I really like Swinley and any development there is a good thing. I'll be looking to volunteer when the weather gets better.

didn't you fall off on and break your wrist on the fire road??

I didn't say I could ride all of it :-p I just said there's a lot more to the Red (and blue) than most people ride.

Video below, proof that no gnarr is required to break yourself! I got the guy behind me to stop (sat there with a floppy arm they didn't need persuading), get a spare tube and zip tie out of my pack, walked him through making a sling out of it, and walked back to the lookout. No ambulance needed 🙂

It's those rigid forks, bloody lethal...

No, it was sitting up, coasting onto the fire road and squeezing the brakes. I've hit that corner flat out making "barrrrrrpppppppppp" noises and it grips just fine!

I'm also a fan of what's been done at Swinley, and well done to TTS for making this all happen.

My only concern with this new freeride area is the location as I feel that it would be better off out on the red loop as the proximity to the start of the green and blue trails (and the centre) means people may go and ride it without having the necessary skillset and end up injuring themselves. I know the description talks about having a difficult entry to put people off, but I wouldn't underestimate the ability of people to walk round that part and still get theselves in trouble.

Noting these are freeride trails. There will be problems if people see there are a load of black trails and think if they can do the red and even a black at other regular trail centres then this will be okay, only to then smash themselves on 15ft gaps and drops. Though qualifiers may help. Then again many people stack it just on the qualifiers at BPW.

Is kind of odd to have flattened the gully with an attitude of too many injuries there, and then justify this near the lookout on the basis that it's easier for the ambulance to get there. So expecting a similar or greater level of injuries. Surprised CE would accept that.

Of course it may not turn out to be what is promised.

Noting these are freeride trails. There will be problems if people see there are a load of black trails and think if they can do the red and even a black at other regular trail centres then this will be okay, only to then smash themselves on 15ft gaps and drops. Though qualifiers may help. Then again many people stack it just on the qualifiers at BPW.

Is kind of odd to have flattened the gully with an attitude of too many injuries there, and then justify this near the lookout on the basis that it's easier for the ambulance to get there. So expecting a similar or greater level of injuries. Surprised CE would accept that.

Of course it may not turn out to be what is promised.

Have a read of the facebook post on the subject. The Gully wasn't flattened because it was too difficult, there are bigger jumps on the Red. It was flattened because the accident rate was high, which means they had to do a risk assessment of it, and that flagged up the obvious issues that:

1) It wasn't graded in any way
2) It's inaccessible for ambulances in any kind of reasonable time frame, hence need an air ambulance almost every weekend at some points.

On 1, The new trails are built to IMBA specs, which is best practice so if someone does skip the qualifier it's their fault. The Gully was the opposite, 2 easy jumps, followed by a very sharp tabletop and a (minor) gap jump.

On 2, There isn't an inherent issue with people breaking themselves playing sport, there's probably similar accident rates at 5 a side pitches. The solution isn't to hide 5-aside pitched down 2 miles of potentially rough or muddy tracks behind locked gates.

Note that the plans also include a longer Green, which will include a fire road route so that will keep the kids and families off the Blue and Red trails (which is probably the #1 complaint, "I came round the corner and there was a pushchair and a family picnicking").

As above though, if you want a Red graded 'freeride' area, turn up and dig, the sooner stuff is built, the sooner more can be built, and the more manpower there is available the more TTS can put into the plans for future years. If there's only 5-10 people on dig days then they can only submit plans for what they think they can do with 5-10 people.

thisisnotaspoon - Member

It was flattened because the accident rate was high

Is what I said.

Have already read the FB post and seen TTS's comments addressing the issue mentioning in particular that the new location is easier for ambulances to get to. It's just I'm surprised at that being a reasoning to even allow it given the initial assessment of the high accident rate at the gully.

The new trails are built to IMBA specs, which is best practice so if someone does skip the qualifier it's their fault. The Gully was the opposite, 2 easy jumps, followed by a very sharp tabletop and a (minor) gap jump.

IMBA or not, I'm not sure skipping a qualifier makes it legally their fault when it comes to a greedy compensation lawyer. Unless they are made to sign a waiver like at BPW (and even then a good enough lawyer could probably still be successful suing).

The Gully was all an easy roll. The incidents were just what people made of it by hitting things big and messing up. Always found it odd anyone totally inexperienced managed to injure themselves significantly there. There was always criticism from "experts" moaning about "lycra clad seat high" types going down the gully, but they would just pootle down rolling at slow speed. Almost impossible to get anything more than a bruise 😀

As above though, if you want a Red graded 'freeride' area, turn up and dig, the sooner stuff is built, the sooner more can be built, and the more manpower there is available the more TTS can put into the plans for future years. If there's only 5-10 people on dig days then they can only submit plans for what they think they can do with 5-10 people.

I'm not calling for anything myself. Not really interested in freeride stuff anyway. Out of my league with big gaps and drops 😀 Fully appreciate those who want that stuff though.

Not knocking TTS's efforts. Fair play. From latest posts it sounds like a lot of volunteers for dig days already.

As I say, just was commenting that I'm surprised with CE's risk assessment. It's a good thing mind.

whats really really needed is a 'turquoise' trail

the green is far too easy and short, my kids get bored of it on their balance bikes!

the blue has too many big features to catch out the unwary and too many people blasting round it at warp speed scaring the newbies

^ a family trail basically. A number of other trail centres have them. Easy for cruising around, taking trailers etc. Keep them separate from the rest.

Before the new trails families used to turn up and just pootle on the fireroads. They were quite happy with that. With the new trails some are thinking that's where they should go, but even the blue is not really what they want.

I agree Kimbers. I did a recce of the green a little while ago with mind to taking my boy around that (he's three) and I thought it was too featureless. He's fine wizzing around the 'natural' single track in our local woods. The tighter it is, the more he enjoys it.

I did hear that they are building a pump track though so I will definitely get him going around that. It could fill the gap between green and the blue trail for getting the skills and confidence up.

There is a plan to extend the green too. It might be too easy for your boy but i think the grade is just about right for young novices, it just isn't long enough to keep attention for long

"Green Extension
Our original plans to run a trail from the existing green route, incorporating what is now Blue 1 and running through the wildlife areas to make a nature trail, have had to change due to the tree-felling. We are back at the drawing board on this one and working with The Crown Estate to come up with a new plan. More news as soon as we get it."

I wouldn't go as far as to say the green is too easy for my boy, it undulates enough to be able to get him out of the saddle and blowing, I just think it is not fun enough to keep him engaged.
I should take him up there and let him decide really. Maybe try and tempt him onto a couple of blue sections.

More importantly when are they going to get the Mr Whippy machine (and the rest of the cafe) up and running again?

Fwiw I think the tts focus on the freeride area is wrong. The terrain at swinley just doesn't allow anything more than a few seconds of dh, so these will be short runs built for a fraction of the people who ride there. Far better to invest time in extending the existing trails which, as noted above, have got plenty of gnarr if you go looking for it. Why not look at integrating some of the older stuff (camel, off the back, rollercoaster, twisted sister etc) into an alternative redder loop, and sorting out the fire road drag from lsp to red 15.

In fairness gravel hill is one of the bigger continuous decent, certainly bigger than the old "freeride" area opposite the gully.

I agree that a freeride area is of minority interest, but it's an un-catered for (ish) minority. There's already 20miles of blue/red, with little or no gaps/drops.

As far as fireroad goes, there's already plans to remove the fire road section between the star posts by using some of the old seagull route.

The problem with Out the back, rollecoaster etc is it's not CE land. You can ride it (and it makes sense to in the context of avoiding some of that fire road) but it's not going to be official.

Personally I'm planning on digging this weekend just so I can get a better idea what the plans look like on the ground.

Overall I think the tts plans are good, bringing back the start of seagull etc, but it's never offered that much (openly) for freeride, just the gulley and a few selected spots. The gulley is gone but most of the others are still there. Maybe the fact they're unofficial is causing CE a headache so they need to do something to stave off the lawsuits, and that's pressing tts to act.

The trails I mentioned are all in the ce land except maybe roller coaster, I think the forestry commission (Crowthorne side owner) were going to monitor swinley with a view to incorporating some of the Crowthorne trails into a loop too. It's the mod land to the soutg that'll be harder to do anything official on!

I'll join a dig day too, not this weekend though. I used to do plenty of minor maintenance back in the olden days when I worked from home 😉

To be honest, it would make more sense if they spent the time working on making the red & blue a bit more interesting.

Chucking a few short runs with some gaps & drops in isn't really going to attract anything new, it certainly wouldn't make me want to go & ride there, when I can drive another 30 minutes to the Surrey Hills and get the same, multiple times over, linked up with some really fun trails, rather than some really boring ones.

Even the off piste stuff at Swinley is old and tired. Its mostly the same stuff than was there 15 years ago, just a bit more eroded.

I rode there for the first time in a while yesterday...

If you find the blues boring then you may as well give up riding IMO... They're excellent. OK, so they're unlikely to kill you, but you can have tonnes of fun, some jumps, some corners, well, lots of corners with the middle flat section which goes on forever and ever...

If you ride it flat out, then even just doing the whole blue is a damn good workout.

35 mins of great fun yesterday 🙂

As an FYI, check out Trail Team Swinley's FB posts for pics of the freeride stuff being built. Looks impressive. Also looks like regular business for the ambulances 😉 . Hopefully the qualifiers do their job though.

Big gaps and drops on official Swinley trails!

Can you post them ? I don't have/do FB.

[img] [/img]

[img] ?oh=92d98ba64f6f1322a066bcb1aee58bcb&oe=572DAA13[/img]

[img] ?oh=1c0da580c124c3d59693e9b5c64edc7e&oe=56FD015E[/img]

Can you see those?

yes sir.

although I doubt I can ride them

If you find the blues boring then you may as well give up riding IMO... They're excellent. OK, so they're unlikely to kill you, but you can have tonnes of fun, some jumps, some corners, well, lots of corners with the middle flat section which goes on forever and ever...

Maybe I should give up riding then, because I find it pretty boring, even with doubling up the odd rollers here & there.

Give me Peaslake, Tunnel Hill, some other lesser known Bagshot spots any day over Swinley.

Hell, I would even go so far as saying my local woodland is better riding than Swinley. It's certainly more challenging.

Nothing wrong with "chicken lines" IMO.

I rode at Woodhill in NZ a couple of years ago and lots of the features are graded (1-6) rather than the trail itself. So you just do what you're comfortable with, rather than committing to a vaguely-graded trail at the start. Worked well IMO.

Maybe I'm the weird one then

I'm with you weeksy - the blue is a surprising amount of fun. I just hope they're putting a load of really obvious rubbish bins around the trail head of the freeride area - the jump track always looked like a bomb site on Monday mornings.

I'm with Weeksy, you'd need to be a riding god to get 100% out of the blue and red, things like the double on Deerstalker that's actually 2 tabletops, the doubles/tripples on Kevlar. I'm no riding god, I can't link up all the rollers on R15 (whatever it's called now), and I'm at the sharp end of the Strava leaderboard on that trail, on a rigid bike, which makes everything after the tabletop very hard work, so there's obviously a lot of progression built in.

(whatever it's called now)

Reservoir Cogs 🙂

I'm at the sharp end of the Strava leaderboard on that trail, on a rigid bike

Scurries off to Strava to see how I compare*

*Also on a rigid bike.

Reservoir Cogs 🙂

This what happens when you name trails by committee, none of them make any sort of sense (apart from it starts near the reservoir). Not that the old ones made much sense, but at least there were stories or just the trail builders sense of humor behind them.

Scurries off to Strava to see how I compare*

*Also on a rigid bike.

1:04 on "R15" (in the top 1000 out of 12,000!)

Loads faster than you, just checked 😀

Hmmm. Strava you say? I'll put it on tomorrow

*shakes fist*

I think I'm losing loads of time on the first tight section through the trees and I can't get the double on the downhill into the tabletop without messing up the berm.

Just make sure your in here

https://www.strava.com/clubs/singletrackworld-com-forumites

13/77 on there, although it's saying that I did that back in 2013 which would be before they re-modeled the mid section (and before the bit after the tabletop got cut up). 1:06 this year definitely felt faster.

I'm with Weeksy, you'd need to be a riding god to get 100% out of the blue and red, things like the double on Deerstalker that's actually 2 tabletops, the doubles/tripples on Kevlar. I'm no riding god, I can't link up all the rollers on R15 (whatever it's called now), and I'm at the sharp end of the Strava leaderboard on that trail, on a rigid bike, which makes everything after the tabletop very hard work, so there's obviously a lot of progression built in.

That may be so, but that doesn't make it fun, having to ride everything absolutely flat out to make it interesting.

But in relation to your highlights.

The double (I assume you mean on Babymaker, not deerstaker) yes, done that, it's nasty & scary, and I cased it hard a few times first, and as an aside, it's not an 'official' trail anyway.

Doubles/triples on Kevlar etc - yep, they are fine too.

R15 (or The Big Dipper as it shows up on my Strava feed) - well I guess I must be doing something right as i've had the KOM on it (for what it's worth) for nearly 2 years...

Still maintain my opinion of Swinley, regardless of my ability (or lack thereof) to ride.

So is it faster to double up before the berms or compress them on R15? Always feels like I get too high on the berms and lose speed.

Ok, so who flagged it as hazardous?

Learn something new every day, I didn't even realise there were hidden Strava segments!

Why are they hidden? Is it as obvious as it seems, there being a huge amount of duplications in there.

Hob Nob - if you've held the KOM for that long then it's safe to say that you're a faster / better rider than the rest of people that ride at Swinley?

Unfortunately for you, I'd also guess that the limited money and manpower that is available for trail development at Swinley is probably better spent on stuff aimed at a broader range of riders than the top (insert very small number) %.

Not saying that everything has to cater for the lowest common denominator but it has to be a viable proposition from the perspective of CE and TTS - I doubt that making the existing trails 'interesting' for the elite (for want of a much better term) would meet that aim.

Si

Only KOMs I get are with dodgy GPS or I've done a run next to a segment that's just straight line and clocks 10 seconds for a trail that should take more than a minute even fastest 😀

Usually they get flagged though, or the trail is marked as hazardous if too many get similar.

Anyway R15 segment I can see, interesting despite the "gnar jumps" nature of the trail, half the top bunch are all top XC racers 😉

Could never do it that fast. Literally does my arms in with all those cobbles. Though I usually take the hard tail round there. A 170 travel heavy AM bouncer is just too much for the place.

Anyway, 3444 / 11394, around a third down. That's my yardstick as most trails I do I'm around a third down the list.

Rubbish, 104/11982, 56s.

Strava chats rubbish anyway.

Excited for the new trails, firmly believe they should not be the average punters version of "progressive", tabletops and chicken runs, causes too many accidents, it's never usually the difficulty of the obstacle that causes accidents, it's lack of commitment and preparation by the rider, make it so the rider has to commit, can pretty much guarantee they're gonna do it unscathed. Plenty of other stuff to get technique and a feeling of capability.

Plus cuts down on trail maintenance if people who can ride it are the only ones that can ride it. No chicken runs to block or maintain, less excessive braking too.

There going to be so many more tragic gnar dogs, LOLs.

Problem is there's not a lot of stuff between tame and what looks to be pretty big (its all relative) stuff in Swinley. DK is right - looks at trails like red 15 and most of the top 20 are on XC 29ers. Swinley has nothing thats any real challenge. Sure some bits and bobs like Wilkins leap are beyond the normal rider, but they aren't injuring anyone either as failing to achieve it for most people is just a moderately easy take off to flat landing.

I'm looking forward to it but I am not convinced it won't lead to a lot of injuries, and sadly more likely to get it closed is rubbish left in proximity to the most popular walking spots, and the inevitable conflict with walkers etc. The location is the issue. Should have buried it somewhere in the forest where it was accessible to ambulances/rangers easily, but not near other people.

Whats scarier is the rate at which R15 racks up the counter .... 11394 > 11982 > 12010 in the last hour.

It would be a good idea to fence off the Freeride area to avoid walkers wondering in there by mistake. Also would help difine it as an advance riders area and stop people skiping the qualifing features.

And for the rubbish just provide a bin at the top and the bottom of Freeride area.

So is it faster to double up before the berms or compress them on R15? Always feels like I get too high on the berms and lose speed.

Definitely faster, although there's two lines into it, either what you've found and go high round the berm, or aim for the inside and almost cut the corner.

I think the inside is faster, but I did it on the Pitch and I'm not convinced it's how it was meant to be ridden! And I think that was before they re-modeled it with the new berms at the top of that drop so the berm at the bottom feels tighter now (to me anyway).

Feel like I should go and push myself a bit more to get under a minute! Although I suspect I could probably save 10s by just pedaling more and not coasting the first few corners.

And for the rubbish just provide a bin at the top and the bottom of Freeride area.

Nope.

If you can carry it in, you can carry it out. The trail pixies aren't there to carry your rubbish home for you.

Having said that I once took bin bags down to the gully on a Saturday and picked up litter around people. No one helped, and the place still looked like a bomb site. Some people are just dicks.

I know trail pixies should be collecting rubbish but this is a managed woodland with bins. This area is near the centre just add some bin then get they can be emptied one a week. Don't give people an excuse to litter.

I've just moved to the area and yet to ride the Trails, although visited the Look Out with the kids. Jesus, I thought Cannock sand was bad, but the area has sand [i]and[/i]flint which can't be great for drivetrains off piste.

Anyhow, is there a best place to join the trails half way round if riding south from Windlesham? Or is it just a case of get on a fire road and follow your nose?

I know trail pixies should be collecting rubbish but this is a managed woodland with bins.

I've just moved to the area and yet to ride the Trails, although visited the Look Out with the kids. Jesus, I thought Cannock sand was bad, but the area has sand andflint which can't be great for drivetrains off piste.

It's not too bad, off piste is 90% mulch/loam, very little sand. And since the new trail was built doesn't get too cut up by traffic.

Anyhow, is there a best place to join the trails half way round if riding south from Windlesham? Or is it just a case of get on a fire road and follow your nose?

If you look on google maps kinda just south of the middle there's a really big obvious rectangle, this is the reservoir. The NE corner of this is the top of R15. That's the most obvious landmark at least on aerial photographs (you'll pass other bits of trail on the way if you come from the South East)

I know you can access it from Bagshot and Camberly (from the rough estate behind Collingwood Collage), I suspect the golf course will block access directly from Windlesham, and north of that is the main road, which does have access points but would be a nightmare on a bike.

From Windlesham get to Bagshot. Church Road, Vicarage Road which is a no through road but becomes a fireroad through the gate, and that is the road coming in on the bottom right corner of the map in the link, which will put you on the red route fireroad linking 26 -> 27

Cheers for that - think I can see a way in via Bagshot, then a straight fire road for 2 km, hang a let to the reservoir.

EDIT: Cheers Jon, yep, that's the route in I looked at.

Well I've just enjoyed a spin round Purple, bit windy, quite gingey, got wet at the end.

This thread just made me look up my strava times at swinley. Depressed how fast I was back in 2014....most sections I'm top 1%.

Only rode there once in 2015 (basically became a roadie)

Vow to get back there sometime this year to see if I can defeat my old times.

Oh - and great news on trails, personally I'd prefer more stuff with mass appeal, but any investment is welcome.

Looks truly miserable out the window.

Had a pop at R15 not uploaded it yet. 😛

Nope, slow today.... 😀

There are no bins anywhere else in the forest outside the car park/cafe. Every other user group manages to take their litter home with them.

Dog eggs are an education thing, people assume they're OK to leave and they'll biodegrade. Made more confusing by some areas (including FC land) have signs up asking owners to just flick it off the path/into the bushes whereas others ask it to be removed either for sanitary or biodiverity (it over-fertilizes dunes for example) reasons. So to an extent can be forgiven.

The gulley (and latterly the areas at the top of Deerstalker/babymaker) are/were just an embarrassment, even when the trail pixies left bin bags tied to trees.

thisisnotaspoon - Member

Looks truly miserable out the window.

I've just bailed on this afternoons ride... i'll be on the torture rack in the garage instead.

Definitely faster, although there's two lines into it, either what you've found and go high round the berm, or aim for the inside and almost cut the corner.
I think the inside is faster, but I did it on the Pitch and I'm not convinced it's how it was meant to be ridden! And I think that was before they re-modeled it with the new berms at the top of that drop so the berm at the bottom feels tighter now (to me anyway).
Feel like I should go and push myself a bit more to get under a minute! Although I suspect I could probably save 10s by just pedaling more and not coasting the first few corners.

Cheers, one day I'll session it. It's funny since the mention of this a couple of the segments including r15 have been flagged. I'm never likely to get a KOM on It but it was nice to be fastest so far this year. (All 3 weeks of it)

The gulley (and latterly the areas at the top of Deerstalker/babymaker) are/were just an embarrassment, even when the trail pixies left bin bags tied to trees.

Bins & rubbish - think back to how you behaved as a kid.

Though maybe some were delightfully behaved, but a lot I knew would just chuck stuff on the floor and when told to pick it up, just "meh" or an insult. There's no understanding of the consequences at that age and an assumption adults will clean things up.

But even with adults. I keep seeing people just chuck bottles and cans from their cars or vans. Just why?

Adults on bikes though... gel wrappers. Especially certain people in races. Got a pocket they took it out of, shove it back in! Takes a second. Really gets on my tits 👿