[Closed] New Soul from Cotic

I think it looks alright, certainly better than the new BFe (which has that bloody scaffolding between the seat and top tube).

But, I can't believe that dropper post hose routing gets signed off; it looks absolutely shocking. Along with the rest of the cables, it just looks like a bloody mess compared to the Cotics of old.

You've also got to wonder what the point of this bike is since they've got the Solaris. I thought big wheels were where it was at for that type of riding?

Glad I bought one of the reduced 27.5 ones the other week.

Looks okay to me, black would have helped distract from that mess of cable's though.

It's shorter reach than your Zero TR!

Nope, the Soul is 11mm longer in both ETT and reach than the Bird TR, both medium.

I just had a play with it on the custom bike builder and compared them, the Bird is, understandably, a lot less cash for same components. I’ll keep telling myself that !

I don't think the cables look any worse than other bike. It would be worse if you put a front mech on and with a sideswing front mech (correct me if I'm wrong) it'd be another cable going down the downtube. Has it got stays for the cable there?
I can see that they've removed the cable stay on the seat tube for a top pull mech.

That's a pretty machine that has that 'sorted' look. I'd still be bouncing off the stops of a 120mm fork, just like every 120mm hardtail I've ever owned.

Is it going to happily run a 140mm fork? I should think that's how you're going to see most of them in the wild.

Nope, the Soul is 11mm longer in both ETT and reach than the Bird TR, both medium.

That's because Cotic quoted sagged, Bird quote static geometry. The Bird has longer reach when quoted the same way.

Scienceofficer - Member

Is it going to happily run a 140mm fork? I should think that's how you're going to see most of them in the wild

On the geometry charts it shows a 140mm set up too.

That makes the HTA 66 degrees for e.g. Although as usual with Cotic figures that is sagged number (25% sag).

chief, thanks for the info, makes sense and ties in with the measurements you mentioned on my Bird thread. Surprising that 25mm of sag changes the reach by 15mm or so but I guess that’s the basic angles and geometry thereof.

[quote=jekkyl ]I don't think the cables look any worse than other bike. It would be worse if you put a front mech on and with a sideswing front mech (correct me if I'm wrong) it'd be another cable going down the downtube. Has it got stays for the cable there?
I can see that they've removed the cable stay on the seat tube for a top pull mech.
The cable run for a side-swing mech would run parallel to the dropper cable - attached to the bottle cage mounts I assume - unless they've added additional.

Looks like a barge, with the turning circle of an oil tanker no doubt!

The cable run for a side-swing mech would run parallel to the dropper cable - attached to the bottle cage mounts I assume - unless they've added additional.

On my SolarisMAX there are clips that use the bottle cage (and another nearer the ht) for fixing the cable for my fm (as supplied from Cotic)...

It does indeed look looooong... fortunately I don't have room for another bike (and if I had it would've been filled with either a FlareMax or a gravel bike of some sort...) 😳

Love it, I think it looks purposeful. Love the finish and the colours, The cables don't matter a jot. It's ace to see development still happening in hardtails, when we live in a bike world full of boutique £5K full sussers. If you're looking for a capable all round HT you really are spoiled for choice at the minute.

Ace.

It looks comedically long and slack but will look normal soon I imagine as others catch up

Hasn’t this just caught up with everyone else?

Considered a Soul in the past as thought it had the classic ht look and the colour schemes mad3 it look very smart. Not anymore, that’s boggin.

Well I shall be over to Cotic on Monday to have a butchers in the metal... (although not a ride)

I loved the mkV BFe I took out on extended demo about 6 weeks back, and if they hadn't already sold out of med blues I would almost certainly have just signed on the dotted line there and then, but Cy said at the time that the new Souls were due in shortly so I decided to hold fire. At 145lb and not as into dropping off big stuff as I used to be, I don't really need the beef of the Bfe and the ~1lb less of the Soul frame is handy too. More about seeing how the geo stacks up.

Comparing like to like - med, 140mm forks, sagged, there's a degree slacker in the SA, but that's easily compensated for in saddle fore/aft; BFe is 5mm lower BB, Bfe reach is 6mm shorter and stack is 6mm higher, although presumably this doesn't include the extra stack height generated by the Soul needing an external top HS cup.

Bar the BB height, that all sounds near as dammit identical. No idea whether I'd notice 5mm of BB height or not.

I think I prefer the shape of the BFe - I'm a sucker for seatstays that match the TT angle, and it makes the bike look slightly less gawky. Like the orange, but a bit been there/done that, tempted by the silver/pink if I go the Soul route.

Could live without the Boost back end, but it's not a deal breaker as none of my wheels are the right size anyway.

chestrockwell - Member

Hasn’t this just caught up with everyone else?

I think that's probably true tbh. And I think some of the comments on this thread maybe show why, Soul owners/lovers are a bit conservative I reckon. But the original Soul wasn't conservative.

Hasn’t this just caught up with everyone else?

I wouldn't go that far - it's just caught back up with the bleeding edge again.

But the original Soul wasn't conservative.

I've been riding around on mk1 Soul geo for 14+ years now. Standing alone, it still works brilliantly - especially on fast flowy stuff, but the changeover from a modern enduroish full sus can be a little challenging. (Limited) experience of new skool geo suggests that it does just ride like a bike, but the extra length and slackness just stabilises the ride somewhat and gets rid of the "going over the front" feeling once it gets rough. Not noticed any issues with "the turning circle of an oil tanker". It'll be about the same length as a full sus and we manage with those OK.

I reckon an extra small with 140mm forks and 26" wheels might be a bit of a laugh. It's bloody sodding buggering boost though... The new BFe's 142x12 and can take 26+ so why not stick with that for the Soul as well?

Considered a Soul in the past as thought it had the classic ht look and the colour schemes mad3 it look very smart. Not anymore, that’s boggin.

That's 'personal taste' for you though. My old Mk2 Soul was orange and my Soul275 is matte process blue. I quite like the new colours although I'd not get the magenta. I thought the nonsense with brown, black, yellow, grey and the worst offender - red over the last few years was a bit fugly but when bikes are only going to come in a couple of colours per batch there's always going to be upset people.

The 'mercury' is reminding me strongly of my old chrome ProStar BMX from when I was a kid! 😀

Soul owners/lovers are a bit conservative I reckon.

I ride a Mk1 Soul and as an old bloke I'm probably classed as conservative (not politically though).

Mine has a short stem, wide bars and 140mm Pikes. Way beyond the designed limits, and I expect it to snap in two every time I throw it down a rock garden, but it isn't half fun to ride.

I think it looks great and would love to have a go on it. I like the colours too. I’m guessing it will cost about £2k though which is, sadly, out of my budget.

^^^^ I specced one out earlier with as close to spec as a Bird I have just ordered, so mix of slx and xt, and a Reverb. It was about £2.5k.

The new BFe's 142x12 and can take 26+ so why not stick with that for the Soul as well?

Cotic site saying they'll flog you 'boostinators' for 142 axle wheels if that helps?

Looks like a barge, with the turning circle of an oil tanker no doubt!

You haven't ridden any modern bikes have you?

If you're looking at whole bikes, Cy's email quotes builds from £1699 which are probably going to be XF fork of some description, all SLX plus own brand finishing kit based on the builds on the rest of the range. You might even get an Hope XC wheelset at that price. Checking the mailing list only product page (I'd been avoiding this!) there's a discrepancy - it also quotes a £1699 complete bike start price but then doesn't offer a build less than £1979. This is still the initial wave of earlies though - the main batch isn't arriving for a few weeks yet so maybe both prices are true and the cheaper build just isn't yet available. Frame only is £599 if you wanted to build your own - a spanking wheelset, groupset, build kit plus decent sh fork is quite doable around a grand for quite nice things, much less if you're less picky!

The new BFe's 142x12 and can take 26+ so why not stick with that for the Soul as well?

Boost148 rear spacing futureproofs the frames, and our latest super clearance stays, as introduced on the SolarisMAX and BFe give clearance for up to 27.5 x 2.6" tyres, or 26 x 3.0".

It is true, that the new BFe has purposefully stayed 142, and Soul and SolarisMAX are 148 (and have been for a while now). Can't win either way. Buy a different model, or convert your wheels. Cotic didn't invent Boost, but can't ignore it.

The 'mercury' is reminding me strongly of my old chrome ProStar BMX from when I was a kid!

Jealous. Memory of lusting over that BMX is still strong for me. This is paint not chrome though. Easier to live with. But that is the look.

there's a discrepancy - it also quotes a £1699 complete bike start price but then doesn't offer a build less than £1979

Wheels need building for the Silver build bike… people picking up one of the handful of advance frames need to go with the more expensive (but ace) Hope wheels I'm afraid.

sharkattack - Member

Looks like a barge, with the turning circle of an oil tanker no doubt!

You haven't ridden any modern bikes have you?

Former bike shop manager, so probably more than most tbh, a lot of current bike 'improvements' are anything but!

Former bike shop manager, so probably more than most tbh, a lot of current bike 'improvements' are anything but!

You're doing well then. All the bike shop managers I know are sick of the sight of the things and haven't ridden one in years.

The fact remains, mountain bikes have been too small for normal people forever. Longer wheelbases and roomier cockpits are a revelation. How long does a bike have to be before it becomes an actual barge? Because no Cotic is anywhere near that point.

When I were lad, it was pretty common to have 150mm stems. Infact I can recall people thinking I was crazy going for going for 'only' 120mm (with cut down Azonic DH bars) on my xc race bike 20 odd years ago... 😳

Now that bikes are running sub 50mm stems (wasn't Gary Fisher's genesis set up the start of this trend, like, 15 years ago?) where is that length going to be instead? Mk1 Souls were designed around 90mm stems iirc.

I found my mk1 felt a wee bit too small after I'd gone 70mm/685mm. Plus, the move to inline/dropper pins has exacerbated this further... it was a superb bike back in the day (compared to my previous Cove and Klein). But I went up a size as a result on my SolarisMAX...

Yeah, they do look long, but the proof of the pudding...

ETA: I've kind of arrived at a similar point as Cotic over the last 10 years from my own limited experience so if you actually rode your bikes heaps this would probably be what I would have been waiting for... 😀

The fact remains, mountain bikes have been too small for normal people forever

[i]"I'm 6'2" and can't decide if I should buy the medium or the large".[/i]

Really?

Yes, but for aaaaaaaaaaaaages MTBs were basically road bikes with knobbly tyres, weren't they?

I had a teeny tiny 14" Giant Boulder in the mid 90s with braced risers and a short stem (I was a total dual slalom fashion victim 😆 ) and it was great, relatively speaking, compared to the gate of a GT I'd had previously.

I found my small 26" Soul a [i]smidge[/i] short after riding a small Flare (still on 26", mind) built up with the same 760mm bars and 50mm stem, and the medium Rocket was a bit too stretchy built up with the same stuff. The small old shape BFe275 (on 26") is spot on for me- short and small enough to be 'fun' around the doors doing skids and wheelies but long/slack enough to be properly fast (in my head!) when it gets a bit bumpy.

I like small bikes but until recently a small bike also pretty much meant a short bike, now I can buy a frame that's small with loads of standover but is still the right sort of length to be comfy on for a decent amount of time.

So, in summary, bikes are great and the XS Soul with 140s looks like it might be around the same sort of shape as the old small BFe275... Hmm.

Yes, but for aaaaaaaaaaaaages MTBs were basically road bikes with knobbly tyres, weren't they?

Just by chance my first MTB predated this era - it was a dated-for-the-time Peugeot in 1988. Geometry more like the klunkers than the NORBA XC bikes that took over - and short stem and wide riser bars (particularly for a nine year old!)

Geek moment:

Soul Mk1 medium
590 ETT
424 reach
90 stem (85 extension)
675 ETT+stem
509 reach+stem

Soul Mk5 medium
636 ETT
458 reach
35 stem (32 extension)
668 ETT+stem
490 reach+stem

@chief: I don't pretend to understand them numbers but I think we're in agreement 😀

Oh, and Scotroutes +1

Where is hora these days anyway?

I’m 178/5’10” and normally happy on mediums in most brands although in old SC sizes I was L (not sat on a more modern SC than my Mk2 Chameleon do no idea if this has changed).

The other Larges I’ve allowed myself to be persuaded into - eg, 20” Inbred, L Spicy, 58 Cotic X - have all felt fundamentally too big for me as soon as I’ve stopped sitting and spinning and tried to point them down things although they felt fine while in sit and spin mode.

I know the ‘buying small bikes’ thing did take on a life of its own, but I’d contest that off-road mtbs do work better when on the small side compared to conventional ‘road’ based ideas of fit. Rider shape while descending/ riding anything technical is probably a large part/ all of this I’d think. Thus, pretty much any mtb that isn’t a pure DH race bike is going to involve compromise in geo as it’s trying to make fundamentally different rider positions work simultaneously.

Surely at 5ft 10 you are bang in the middle of M sized territory ? I am same height and all my bikes are and have been mediums, though varying geometry obviously. My medium, last of the 26’ers, Soul felt perfect till I got a medium 17 Anthem, and that made the Soul feel short. When sizing my ‘about to arrive tomorrow’ Bird Zero TR, Ben sized me, based on review of all my other bike stats, on a M, with a 40mm stem.

chiefgrooveguru - Member

Geek moment:

Soul Mk1 medium
90 stem (85 extension)

I had an early Soul with the same geometry and IIRC a 60mm stem, maybe a 50. Did try it with 90 and it was orrible.

Used to own one if the last ‘decent looking’ Souls, not keen on the last two incarnations, including this one. The 2018 Orange P7s and Clockworks look much nicer in my opinion.

Depends on the length of your limbs as well. I'm 5' 11 and I've a mrk2 Large Soul with a very old fashioned 100mm stem and no way do I feel too stretched out. Seat's all the way back too.

I think it looks great! Can’t justify it right now, but will be keen to try one out in the new year

Im due a new Cotic 😀 ...Anyone able to paste up (or provide a link) for the geo of the small?

Geek moment:

Soul Mk1 medium
590 ETT
424 reach
90 stem (85 extension)
675 ETT+stem
509 reach+stem

Soul Mk5 medium
636 ETT
458 reach
35 stem (32 extension)
668 ETT+stem

Soul mk 1 = narrowish bars 600-700mm
Soul mk 5 = 800mm+ bars

I think adding 20mm on bar width pulls you forward about the same as adding 10mm on stem length. So if I ride a 50mm stem with a 800mm bar and then switch to a 780mm bar I can put a 60mm stem on and it will feel roughly the same. That might be madness but in my head it works.

My Solaris Max is running a 50mm stem with 800mm bars. I’m 6’2” and the large feels just right. It is the first bike I’ve had that has felt long enough for a while.

My medium, last of the 26’ers, Soul felt perfect till I got a medium 17 Anthem, and that made the Soul feel short

Would people class the mk3 26" soul as a short bike?

I'm 5'9 and I've got a medium mk3 with a 50mm stem and find the length perfect even for xc, I find it more comfortable than all the longer more xc bikes I've owned before even on 40-50 mile rides.

This latest one looks too long for my liking but I haven't tried any of the modern geometry hardtails yet so would need to ride one rather than just look at it. I do prefer riding shorter bikes though.

^^^ I didn’t, at 5ft 10 and longish back I found the Medium, with a 70mm stem and 740 bars perfect for over 3 years. However once I updated my FS to a longer geometry I found swopping between them highlighted the differences, with the Soul feeling short. I know others have found similar when swopping between current longer bikes and those with more traditional geometry, not just the Soul.

I’m sure if I was only riding the Soul I’d still be on it, rather than having sold it a few days ago.

Without wishing to derail the thread had this Soul been in 26 and my 2012 wheels, forks would swap straight in I’d have just ordered one. As I have posted beofre all the 29 / 275 / tapered / boost etc etc has meant I have spent far less on bikes and stuff than I would have otherwise. Cost to change (not £700 but £2k+) is just too high 😐

I had an early Soul with the same geometry and IIRC a 60mm stem, maybe a 50. Did try it with 90 and it was orrible.

I had a Mk2 which I believe was the same geometry - rode it briefly with 670mm bars, 60mm stem and 100mm fork. Then years with 710, 50 and 140. Felt great until I got something much bigger!

Was just observing how (especially once you figure in bar width) the fit hasn't changed much between the 2003 and 2017 versions, but the front wheel has moved much further forwards.

Somehow stumbled across the page for the new soul, regular navigation takes you to the old one though.

https://www.cotic.co.uk/product/soul

That is one loooooooong bike, but if they have kept the weight the same that is very impressive! Tempted to just get a frame and swap the bits off my T130 for winter use!

iainc - Member
^^^ I didn’t, at 5ft 10 and longish back I found the Medium, with a 70mm stem and 740 bars perfect for over 3 years. However once I updated my FS to a longer geometry I found swopping between them highlighted the differences, with the Soul feeling short. I know others have found similar when swopping between current longer bikes and those with more traditional geometry, not just the Soul.

I’m sure if I was only riding the Soul I’d still be on it, rather than having sold it a few days ago.

Been exactly my experience. Loved my Soul, but moving to longer FS bikes just changed my preferences. Trying to justify a new one now, even though I have no need for it whatsoever

Password protection came off the new Soul product page this morning… mailing list people have had all weekend to grab one of the handful of advance frames… now you can get one. Navigation will move from old model to new model later today…

Take back what I said about the look of it as it looks well in orange.

jambalaya - Member
Without wishing to derail the thread had this Soul been in 26 and my 2012 wheels, forks would swap straight in I’d have just ordered one. As I have posted beofre all the 29 / 275 / tapered / boost etc etc has meant I have spent far less on bikes and stuff than I would have otherwise. Cost to change (not £700 but £2k+) is just too high

Agree completely.

Have some 29'er wheels on another bike.
A small, rigid, qr, 2nd gen Solaris sounds like the pick of the bunch for me.
If I could guarantee the availability of decent, straight steerer forks I'd have a Mk1 Soul as well.

Considering that the new BFe (more affordable than the Soul) has stuck with 142 and that more BFe26 frames are planned for 2018, I think Cotic are doing far more than most to offer frames that can be built up with existing kit.

Agree with that too.

Cotic, along with Surly are shining examples of the few who genuinely take compatability and longevity seriously.

It wasn't aimed at Cotic.
I like the products and the philosophy and I've never ridden a bad one.

Cotic, along with Surly are shining examples of the few who genuinely take compatability and longevity seriously

As an owner and fan of both, that just made me smile 8)

Wheels need building for the Silver build bike… people picking up one of the handful of advance frames need to go with the more expensive (but ace) Hope wheels I'm afraid.

Pretty much where I was headed with the observation that HopeXC were the ‘worst’ wheels offered and “maybe both are true”. 🙂 Good to hear, but I’m feeling a pair of Boost DT350’s and Asym WTBs in my near future! My only real gripe about this new frame is that I can see the lust for one leading to my poor Solaris giving up its bodily parts along with a new airshaft for the Boost Yaris it’s wearing. I’d deliberately left the steerer long enough for a dropLink bike do it’ll be fine! Right now, hardtails seem more relevant to me although I’m not writing off a probable replacement FS in the next year, so I’ll hang on to my wagon wheels for a bit if the Solaris does split.

Size, at 178 I’m usually listed at the top of M and bottom of L on most charts, but in reality apart from the ‘comes up small’ L’s I’ve had I’m fairly dependably M.

http://www.cotic.co.uk/news/2017/soullaunch

Just seen on FB.

Personally not that keen on mercury colour, definitely not with orange/black accents, though the pink is growing on me. Not liking the orange massively really, particularly the soul logo surround looks odd.

Really don't like the coloured hope kit on the built up example.

Why do they never quote wheelbase....stack is way too low for someone with long legs and short upper body like myself, shame as I quite like the raw silver colour

I like the Orange frame & Silver/Pink frame, but hate the 'Soul' sticker on the TT. It looks out of place. Like a kids MBUK free sticker.

Not keen on the demo build either. Gold accents don't tie together. Should have gone Hope black or orange to match the decals.

Really like Cy's explanation.

&

Earlier this year we hacked the front end off a Soul275 and our friends at 18 Bikes welded on a radically different geometry front end. We increased the length to the point where most riders would need a 35mm stem, and then used anglesets to find the balance point on the head angle where you would get the confidence you need in the front end, with nice crisp turn in for the singletrack, without making it over responsive and nervous.

I like this approach to R&D. Down to earth & humble.

Is a 35mm stem loads different to a 50mm stem in the way it feels to ride? 50mm is the shortest I've gone, what am I missing?

Is a 35mm stem loads different to a 50mm stem in the way it feels to ride? 50mm is the shortest I've gone, what am I missing?

Yes, amazingly so. If you lay a metre rule from grip to grip on typical bars with a 50mm stem you'll see that the effective stem length is even shorter - maybe 20 or 30mm of forwards offset from steerer to hands. With a 35mm stem you're approaching zero effective stem length.

It feels VERY direct, more precise control when climbing but noticeably less stability when you weight the bars - so you need a long and slack enough bike for it to not feel too nervous, plus pretty wide bars. I prefer how a 50mm stem feels but I have a 35 on my hardtail for fit reasons.

So, basically Cy has lopped 100mm off the expected stem length since the first iteration!

I think I started with a 75mm stem on my first (batch 1) Soul.

So, basically Cy has lopped 100mm off the expected stem length since the first iteration!

More like 40mm or so.

On the subject of 35mm vs 50mm stems, there's a clear difference but both are within the useful zone of adjustment (without making the bike handle weird) for me.

Is a 35mm stem loads different to a 50mm stem in the way it feels to ride?

Went over earlier for a look. The mercury/orange one is a large and did look kinda long. There's a LOT of TT there. The orange medium was still on the stand being built, but looked fairly bikey to me - not obviously an oil tanker, and the mercury/pink small looked just like a 4x bike, which is a good thing in my book! Long, low and fast as ****!. Also there was Cy's original Soul proto which looked [i]very[/i] strange in modern company - even for me who's still riding 26". Kinda top heavy with the saddle right back on a long post and a 90mm stem with narrow high rise bars.

Went back into the Cotic website archives, and 90mm was indeed pretty normal on the original Soul.
So 55mm lobbed off since then.

By the way, this was the oldest page I could find, from 2002… http://www.cotic.co.uk/news/spy

Went back into the Cotic website archives, and 90mm was indeed pretty normal on the original Soul.

I've probably still got Cy's email somewhere recommending me a medium Soul, a 90mm stem and a (loooong) layback seat pin 😀

I can't believe you people even doubted me! 😉

I've probably still got Cy's email somewhere recommending me a medium Soul, a 90mm stem and a (loooong) layback seat pin

So what was the recommended fork of the era? Details!

I couldn't find one on my normal account (it would've been 2007) but I did find one from 2010 when I was asking about a Soda. I was asking about the merits of wide (711!) bars, layback pin & 70mm stem vs narrower, inline & 90mm stem (the answer was inline and 90 would put me too far forwards.

I do specifically mention TALAS forks at either 100 or 120.... 😀

I really don't like the look of that meticallic one, proportions and colour look dire - and this from a cotic fan and previous Soul owner :(.

You can still do mincing on a modern geometry long bike.

Personally I think longer frames look better, as well as riding better.

So what was the recommended fork of the era? Details!

Not fussed on the look of it either way, but those numbers look good to me.

I'm bang in the middle of a medium, for a change. Will be saving my pennies to swap my vitus frame for one of them in the future. I'll only need a new back wheel too. Oh and a 180mm dropper.

I really don't like the look of that meticallic one, proportions and colour look dire

TBF to Cotic these long hardtails all look wrong proportion wise to me, it's not a specific Cotic issue. Full sus seem to carry the proportions fine, but not steel hardtails.

Is this new Soul going to be any different in real world terms than the Solaris Max?

Having quickly test ridden a Solaris Max with both wheelsets I would say so based on how that felt vs my 2012 26 BFe (admit 2017 Soul geo is quite different)

Solaris Vs Soul then?

Generall alrounder - the Solaris May have taken the Souls crown?

and the mercury/pink small looked just like a 4x bike

Cotic people reading this, I'd like to see side-on pics of an XS and small built up please, because if it looks right it probably is.

Is this new Soul going to be any different in real world terms than the Solaris Max?

Maybe they should be merged as Soularis?

Cotic people reading this, I'd like to see side-on pics of an XS and small built up please, because if it looks right it probably is.

And a medium too! You should send a memo to Deviate regarding seat tube lengths - their new bike looks so right apart from that. Short is good - droppers are LONG!

Small and Medium bikes are built ready to shoot for the launch… although this thread, with the quick advance photos, using the large, intended for the mailing list peeps, has sort of got ahead of that, hasn't it.