[Closed] New shimano xt hubs interesting internals

Sounds cool!

Any pics of it taken apart?

That sounds really promising, cheers Neil!

TBPH, it might be interesting to build a wheel on one of those and see how it survives IRL. At that rate it’s sounding like interchangeable endcaps and the dubious advantages of cartridge bearings are all that everyone else has over Shimano unless there’s a real quality problem...

Out of interest, where did you get one for £60? That’s much cheaper than zee Germans even seemed to be selling for - or is that exVAT or something?

Edit: ah, ok R2 are much cheaper than BD for hubs it seems!

Wow! Just been digging. Microspline for 135 QR is a possibility too! 🤩.

That’ll certainly help with a test mule if I do do this!

Great vids.

What’s the difference between DT’s design from 20 years ago?

My Chris King rear hub was the worst bike related purchase I ever made. The axle bearings were amazing, just like the headsets… the freehub mechanism was just fragile finicky junk… but beautiful sonorous junk.

Do they have the Digital Click bearing adjust? It might only exist in QR road hubs, but to my mind it made adjusting cup and cone so simple that it mitigated any advantage of cartridge bearings.

Nice to see they're still developing their hubs at least.

The problem I have with cup and cone was the scoring on the inside of the hub. Yes, if you know what you are doing you can set c&c up well but if there's excessive scoring there will always be play no matter how well you set them up.

For the conditions I ride, I'll never buy a none bearing hub again.

Meh.

It's heavy. Uses stupid cup & cone bearings, stupid centrelock rotors & a stupid new freehub standard.

My only experience of C&C hubs in the last 10 years has been a wheelset on my other halfs bike which has ended up in the bin after 5 months. On a £3k bike. Junk.

My only experience of C&C hubs in the last 20 years is they keep going on and on and on if you check them once every year or so. And make that 30 years for C&C BB. Sadly most MTBers are hamfisted home mechanics so will more than likely mess things up. And then blame it on the product being cheese, when in fact it will outlast the bike. IMHO.

Am I right in thinking that the difference between that and the DT design is that DT has the 2 ratchets always touching, but the Shimano one uses the helical bit to pull them apart/together?

andyrocketeer, yep that’s about it. The helical bit is what/what is left of the mechanism that was intended to disengage the ratchet when there was no positive drive for the ‘Scylence’, which Shimano canned to hit a deadline after factory fire etc. I seem to recall the link to DT design wasn’t exactly secret in the releases leading up to 9100 last year, so honestly not surprised to see it here, but as Neil posted up top it’s remarkable how far down this design has been trickled. DT don’t offer it any lower than the 350, and unless you get a sale bargain you’re paying £150 or more for a 350. This is a £60-£70 hub, and seems to be available in all configurations from 135QR to superboost. That’s very good news for a lot of riders.

Agree also about cup and cone; the issue is that it requires regular maintenance, although keeping one correctly adjusted isn’t hard. If it’s ignored all year then on a MTB you probably have a hub that cannot be repaired because the races will be scored. Even if a cartridge bearing fails completely due to lack of love you can just knock it out and replace complete. Obviously how well sealed the bearings are will be huge to how well the hub survives. Neil reckons this looks well sealed after taking one apart.

I reckon it’s a hub that looks worth investigating at least. It would be nice if it wasn’t centre lock, but the only two particular issues with centrelock are the tool required is a pain to carry (but who actually removes rotors in the wild?) and you get a very limited range of discs because most of the market prefers 6bolt. If anyone is comparing like for like hub weights, centrelock makes it possible to drop relatively huge amounts off the weight.

it seems like a lot of fine tolerances to get crudded up with old grease etc.

it loks nice in the vid but will it work after going through a muddy puddle? i guess it will as its shimano but it does look overly complicated.

My only experience of C&C hubs in the last 20 years is they keep going on and on and on if you check them once every year or so. And make that 30 years for C&C BB. Sadly most MTBers are hamfisted home mechanics so will more than likely mess things up. And then blame it on the product being cheese, when in fact it will outlast the bike. IMHO.

Adjusting a C&C hub to the right tension can be a ballache though Andy, IME - puts me off them. Happily blame it on myself being hamfisted, but I do nearly all of my bike maintenance myself without any real problem, but can recall a couple of absolutely infuriating XT hubs.

I'm definitely a ham fisted home mechanic. Because with a 4 year old set of DT Swiss hubs, i've had to change 1 DS front hub bearing, which took about 5 minutes & required zero skill. The other set are only a couple of years old & i've never touched them 🙂

The aforementioned SLX C&C hubs started grumbling with play after ~6 weeks from new. Looked at them, then had to resort to the internet as I didn't have clue what to do, faffed around with spanners etc, got them feeling 'better' but not great. Carried on riding, got worse again, attempted to fix again, still grumbling & with play, albeit less, added grease, swore, more play again, gave back as it was a long term test bike, put half decent test wheelset on, haven't touched them since.

I attempted/did more hub maintenance on that one set of wheels in 5 months than i've done in the last 10 years.

I'm a bit naive when it comes to hub technology and only a moderately effective home mechanic. I've stuck with cartridge hubs for their simplicity (even I can change the bearings) and the fact that I'm likely to spill loose ball bearings all over the floor.

It's a personal thing I guess, but I'd see c&c as a disadvantage - so my question would be, what benefits does this clever new hub design offer me (bearing in mind too that I'm just a leisurely pootler) that might make c&c worth the faff? Would I be blown away by the difference or are Shimano (somewhat literally) simply re-inventing the wheel?

Pjay - price? I think we need to see how the sealing on these works out. I DGAS about pickup th and will stick to my noughties LX hubs (and 8-9 speed!)

you probably have a hub that cannot be repaired because the races will be scored.

Not quite, certainly on older hubs it is possible to replace cones, NDS cups and freehub bodies (contaijning DS cup). Shimano haven't made NDS cups available as spares, but it's easy to knock one out of a hub.

 

Whats the pick up on new XT, same as XTR was supposed to be?

Pjay, depends on your start point. If you aren’t interested in 12sp then there is completely no point to this hub for you.

The bearings in the Shimano hub are cup and cone, basically because Shimano. This doesn’t need to be a problem but is a total blocker for anyone wanting fit and forget.

Selling points of the new hub: moderately quiet although not as ‘scylent’ as was intended. Allows fitting of new 12sp Shimano cassette. Costs little more than a replacement FH body for Hope/DT. Comes in a useful range of sizes. Has implementation of DT’s ratchet rotor instead of pawls for FH drive.

DT’s ratchet has been destruction tested worldwide on 240 and 350 series hubs at all levels for a very long time. In DT’s implementation it’s important to use the right grease not just whatever you happen to have in the shed if you want best performance, but generally it’s at least as well sealed and convertible as Hope and apart from odd bad units which any mfr has, generally completely fit for purpose.

The question is going to be how well Shimano have implemented at such a bargain price, but on the face of things this looks like a bargain for people who aren’t completely wedded to cartridge bearings. Shimano hubs tend to get ignored because of the bearings thing. Given the business politics around the 12sp freehub (ie, Shimano saying ‘not today thankyou’ to Hope and various others wanting to clone it for their hub systems) this range may get more interest than Shimano have had for a long time, simply because it’s going to make some cheap rebuilds or temporary replacements possible while people wait for Hope et al to get the license.

12sp then there is completely no point to this hub for you.

I'm quite happy with 10 speed and the wheelset I have, I'm just intrigued by the different way of doing things and whether this offers any benefits over more conventional hubs.

I'm guess that the Scylent internals and the new 12 speed spline design are separate and that Shimano could, if it wanted to, produce a microspline freehubs for its conventional hubs as well as Scylent hubs with conventional freehub splines.

I guess that the question isn't really about the new XT hubs per se, but the internals; is it a case of "different for different's sake" or do the Scylent internals offer benefits over other types.

I think that if I were in the market for these XT hubs, I'd have a nagging worry about durability; they look a tad overly complicated and I'd wonder whether, at the same price point, they couldn't build more durable and equally well performing conventional hub; time will tell I guess.

Do you know the patent number(s)? I was a trainee patent attorney for a while, i'd be interested to take a look.

Star ratchet vs pawls has been a bone of contention for years now. Star ratchets work perfectly well but traditionally have been more expensive to implement. The ratchets generally don’t break unless poorly maintained and can be more reliable than pawl based hubs. I believe there’s a theoretical power transmission advantage to the ratchets in DT’s configuration but the attempted clutch in Shimano’s may work against that. Traditionally the argument usually ends up focusing on the engagement angles and DT’s insistence on a relatively slow pickup (but very strong) default 18T with extra cost upgrades available. Lots of people don’t like that. There are a couple of unlikely situations where you might need an expensive and very specific tool too, but then Hope really need the bearing tools, seal press etc for best results servicing too although you can bodge with big sockets and blunt screwdrivers.

The real problem has always been the likelihood of a nearby DT dealer with stock in the unlikely event something does break though. In the UK it’s always been easier to get Hope spares. The pawls and springs may be relatively undependable (comparatively), but you can pretty much guarantee any LBS having a set.

These are literally the perfect hub I’ve been waiting for. I prefer cup and cone hubs anyway (easier and cheaper to deal with than cartridge bearings) the price is right, they’ll be rebuildable, they’re quiet/silent and that design is bonkers simple. 2 moving parts? Brilliant!
I want some, but not the rest of the groupset really! 👍

The point I was trying to make is that new Shimano cup and cone (and for that matter high end Campag and Fulcrum) are all super simple to adjust, no three-handed spanner juggling required, arguably quicker and easier (and less mechanically clumsy) than bashing cartridges in and out.

But I'm blathering anyway, don't think Shimano use the new system on disc or through axle hubs.

but then Hope really need the bearing tools, seal press etc for best results servicing too although you can bodge with big sockets and blunt screwdrivers.

NOt really. I don't have the "correct" tools but have changed bearings a few times using home made pullers. Its simple to do and has no issues.

Should have ordered looks like a price increase on them now.

How much is a replacement spring? That's gonna be the part that will cause problems down the line assuming the sealing itself is not subject to rotational wear like old cup and cones.

Old cup and cone were easy and usually went for years before needing attention! If you undid one side and pulled the axle out instead of turning it into a 3D puzzle! The circular flange seal on the freehub was often the first thing to wear out, then gritty water has free rein to **** everything else up. People often made the mistake of just replacing the ball bearings and regreasing without replacing the seal, what can you do when your boots let water in! Maintenance is then a frequent issue.

Got two different brand cartridge bearing hubs, both have let water in within 6 months of use. One into the freehub spring pawl part the other into the outer and inner cartridge bearing of the freehub, which was full of mud instead of grease, no jet washing either. So I'm not convinced sealing has improved that much with some cartridge designs, although the hammer wielding style of mechanical maintenance does appeal!

It would be nice if it wasn’t centre lock, but the only two particular issues with centrelock are the tool required is a pain to carry (but who actually removes rotors in the wild?) and you get a very limited range of discs because most of the market prefers 6bolt.

Last time I looked DT Swiss 240s were "centrelock only" but you can just run adaptors and 6 bolt discs (pretty sure DT claimed this solution was lighter than building a 6 bolt hub.

Quite clever but... An XT 10-45 cassette is more expensive and heavier than GX 10-50, therefore, it can all get in the bin. You can't come along years too late with an uncompetitive product unless... oh. Unless you can sell OEM to big manufacturers and get your half-assed second bestaxle standard hub standard into everyone's bikes that way

Ah well.

simons_nicolai-uk

Member

Last time I looked DT Swiss 240s were “centrelock only” but you can just run adaptors and 6 bolt discs (pretty sure DT claimed this solution was lighter than building a 6 bolt hub.

Nah, DT 240 have never been centrelock only. But if you do get one, they include the centrelock adaptors and theirs are really pretty nice so it's not the end of the world

Weights... the hub is 10g lighter, their adaptor is 17g and doesn't need bolts, 6 bolts is about 7g so the only difference is the discs, which are definitely heavier and obviously have less choice. The discs are quicker to change mind

Nah, DT 240 have never been centrelock only. But if you do get one, they include the centrelock adaptors and theirs are really pretty nice so it’s not the end of the world

Ah - looks like some models are. eg the 15mm 100mm front but not the boost. It came up when i was looking for a wheelset - of course the 240 hubs on the wheelsets are different again to the aftermarket...

Yes, DT's adaptors are far nicer (though more expensive) than shimanos...

Anyone tried one of these yet?

Tempted as its a simpler and cheaper alternative to a new freehub, end caps and boost conversion.

£60 is what I paid for a new DT Swiss entire rear wheel in 30mm and with a XD driver last year from CRC. I assume the hub is just a 350 but still...
And I can fit a GX cassette either 11 or Eagle rather than the mediocre Shimano equivalent.

So £60 for just a hub seems very expensive.

I'd never go back to c&c hubs. Unless you've got some mechanical nous (thus excluding 90 percent of the population), the entire wheels end up in landfill.

Even if the wheel sets do get recycled, it just seems like a waste of resources to deliberately build something so energy-intensive and yet so inherently disposable. (Consider the amount of energy it takes to melt the raw bauxite into aluminium).

As for silent hubs, no thanks. Most pedestrians/ walkers need as much warning of approaching cyclists as possible.

As impressed as I am with shimanos engineering, it's their environmental credentials that seem to lag way behind.

Well I like Shimano as a company, it’s hubs too. If it dissengages (didnt american classic hubs do that somehow) does it mean you dont slow as much when freewheeling? How much drag is that when a freewheel is clicking?

Having recently switched to DT350’s, the freehub is so beautifully simple and effective (I use the faster pick up) that if the patents on it have expired, it’s that design that needs to be copied industry wide by Hope or Superstar. Its just perfected and done, proven. I can’t see why it would be expensive to make beyond the forged rings. Simple to assemble too for manufacturers. That design will win out. A 350 with stainless bearings, colours and adaptable is what Hope should now sell if that patents gone.

All it needs now is a grease nipple.

£60 is what I paid for a new DT Swiss entire rear wheel in 30mm and with a XD driver last year from CRC.

alas, such bargains don’t seem to appear these days. Well, at the moment. Though I agree wholeheartedly with the star ratchet love. So, so simple. I believe these XT hubs actually force the ratchets together as you pedal so the chance of slipping is even smaller than with DT.

for lovely simplicity, take a look at the 180 star ratchet

As impressed as I am with shimanos engineering, it’s their environmental credentials that seem to lag way behind.

I'd argue that cup and cone has BETTER environmental credentials than 'disposable' non-adjustable cartridge systems, the only issue is that the adjustment is difficult. Shimano's new adjustment systems require 2 x 5mm allen keys and your fingers. They're brilliant. Only problem is that they don't appear to offer the new system on MTB hubs.

My road bike has similarly easily adjustable cup and cone Fulcrum wheels. Turning the axle by hand is noticeably smoother and easier than my cartridge bearing wheels. Maybe not so important on an MTB where there will be plenty of other things causing drag and rolling resistance...

13thfloormonk
I’d argue that cup and cone has BETTER environmental credentials than ‘disposable’ non-adjustable cartridge systems

The proof is the amount on vintage and veteran bikes still on their original wheels. These bikes will have amassed 10s of thousands of miles in their life, maybe even 100,000.

Kept properly adjusted and lubricated, even unsealed cup and cone are capable of lasting decades on road bikes.

So really the only reason not to use them on an mtb is if you can't seal them properly.

And keeping them adjusted is not rocket science, it's something 10 year olds were doing when I was a lad.