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Narrow wide, quicklinks, and 11-46 cassettes?
So two ideas from elsewhere, and an even heavier cassette.
That's a big cassette!
An 11-46 cassette has proportionately virtually the same range as a 10-42 cassette, but doesn't require any changes to the freehub, so it makes sense as an answer to SRAM's cassettes.
The other things seem like Shimano's accepting that other folks have found better solutions to some problems than Shimano had, which seems like a mature reaction that should be applauded. Shimano should be capable of implementing those solutions in an effective and fairly cost effective manner, which is good for us lot. 🙂
ChrisL - MemberThe other things seem like Shimano's accepting that other folks have found better solutions to some problems than Shimano had, which seems like a mature reaction that should be applauded
OTOH, they're all better solutions that had already been well proven before Shimano launched their last attempts, claiming it was a better way to do it.
An 11-46 cassette has proportionately virtually the same range as a 10-42 cassette, but doesn't require any changes to the freehub, so it makes sense as an answer to SRAM's cassettes.
Exactly what I have tried to achieve by adding a One Up 45T to the M8000 XT cassette so I wish they had done it earlier.
Hopefully the quick links will be a bit better than the one I saw on an early Di2 road bike that undid itself when you back pedalled 🙂
I assume that the new chainring shape is more to do with lawyers than engineers.
ChrisL - Member
An 11-46 cassette has proportionately virtually the same range as a 10-42 cassette, but doesn't require any changes to the freehub, so it makes sense as an answer to SRAM's cassettes.
Yeah, but will weight a ton - XT is already 40g heavier than a GX. Adding even more weight to it to try to match the range won't help, unless they've done something clever.
A relatively weighty 11-46 cassette will help (Shimano) if they can sell it at a significantly lower price than SRAM can sell their cassettes. I can't imagine that Shimano would be willing to adopt SRAM's XD driver so their two options were to stick with the existing freehub design or introduce a competing new standard. It's a bit of a surprise really that for once the bike industry hasn't decided to add another competing standard to the mix!
Is it time for eagle yet ?
New chainrings seem odd, the alternating teeth seemed like a good idea, and would presumably translate well into cheaper stamped chainrings too?
It's a bit of a surprise really that for once the bike industry hasn't decided to add another competing standard to the mix!
Shimano have form in this.
24mm 68/73mm BB's for example.
I suspect at least some of it is down to tooling, they must invest millions in forging machines which are relatively inflexible, when the competition (SRAM) is happy making CNC'd bits and can change them on a whim.
One thing that confuses me, Shimano said anything more than 11-40 wouldn't work well with XTR so they wouldn't make a lighter 11-42 cassette, but 11-46 will work with XTR?
ChrisL - Member
A relatively weighty 11-46 cassette will help (Shimano) if they can sell it at a significantly lower price than SRAM can sell their cassettes
Existing 11-42 is much the same price as the GX, which is lighter and wider range
Is there any news when the new cassette and chain rings will be available? Also will the new 11-46 cassette work with existing M8000 GS mechs, or will it require a new mech?
ferrals - MemberOne thing that confuses me, Shimano said anything more than 11-40 wouldn't work well with XTR so they wouldn't make a lighter 11-42 cassette, but 11-46 will work with XTR?
They have history on this sort of thing- they insisted 36T was incompatible with their 9 speed mechs to encourage people to move to 10 speed, then once 10 speed was up and running, they quietly launched a 36T 9 speed cassette for the tourer market.
Woah there, 40 whole grammes!!!
I'm Guessing this means slx 11 speed is a way off then..?
Was hoping for some cheapish shimano cranks that won't scuff like the XT ones do and will let me run a 30t Oval this year..
They never said that 11-42 (or more) wouldn't work with XTR - that was a STW mistake.
XTR is currently limited to 11-40 as it's the race group, so the target audience is less likely to require gears that we do, and it makes a lighter cassette for a given construction style. No problem mixing XT cassettes with XTR mechs/shifters.
Current XT and XTR 11 spd mechs work with the new cassette.
Info from Madison B2B.
When's someone going to bring out a 48t expander cog. That's what we all want to know
If I go 1x11 (11x42) xt now, will this new 11-46 cassette be compatible? Obviously adding a few links in the chain..
Can't see why not unless they use a different chain and chain ring.
Edit..compatible with existing 1x11 XT and XTR..
http://dirtmountainbike.com/bike-reviews/gear-news/new-shimano-11-speed-drive-train-additions.html#xyQItIlUJ1fhPWUU.97
Mech range is the only possible issue I can see. I have more than 40g of crap in my camelback that I could lose if it really mattered that much.
The biggest news is Shimano have invented a chain link that can be quickly undone without the need of a chain tool and a replacement pin.
Why hasn't anyone thought of something like that for bike chains before? Revolutionary.
Tom Kp
Sram 10 and 11 speed links are single use units. Same as Shimano. Suspect that's why they held off - there's no real advantage over a single use pin. Public demands it though, so they deliver.
Suspect that's why they held off - there's no real advantage over a single use pin
It's easier to fit, it's simple to fit and it's quick to fit. Already a significant advantage over joining a chain on the trail with a chain tool.
As for the cassette come back when you can make one that's a decent weight.
It's can't be that hard, if you look at the XT one you can see all the extra metal in there doing nothing.The release mentions it has having a “weight target” of 450g, which with the product renders above implies nothing outside of prototypes exists yet.
XD is different but in terms of OEM bikes, new hubs/wheel upgrades etc. it doesn't cost you any more to get one. The only people late to the party are Shimano for obvious reasons. Anyone else should be able to transition fairly easily at very little cost.
Wipperman chains have had a simple quick link for years that is reusable and requires no tools.
Saying that I find KMC links can also be undone with a big of effort without tools.
Coming straight to xt is good, don't have to wait a year for trickledown!
The difference between 10 and 11 is massive IMHO and for what I do (I have both) so it's SRAM (or maybe e-13/Hope-10/44 or 9/44 etc) when they've been tested thoroughly.
The difference between 10 and 11 is massive
Maybe over 11-36 but
I'll be sticking with my sunrace 10speed 11-42 for a while
I'm in no rush to introduce another standard across my fleet of bikes, I've already got 3 different wheel sizes, 2 headset standards, 5 axle standards, 2 handlebar diameters etc
I'm not bothered about adding a new chains shifters and mechs into the mix! When I do upgrade at least shimano let's me keep the same freehub !
And then 12 speed SRAM with its 50t sprocket is gonna be the new thang anyway
pipiom - Member
The difference between 10 and 11 is massive IMHO
A 10-42 cassette has a 420% range, an 11-46 cassette has a 418% range. The Shimano cassette would require a larger chainring to get the same gear ratios as a SRAM cassette (getting it close to exact may be tricky as narrow-wide chainrings have to have an even number of teeth) but the overall range is very similar.
They have front mechs that work?The only people late to the party are Shimano [B]for obvious reasons.[/B]
😉
If rumours and pics are true, SRAM are releasing X01 eagle, 12 speed 10-50t cassette..
Bit of a strange name if you ask me for a groupset..
bigger sprockets = more durable, yes it weighs a bit more.
But the key point it isn't SRAM!
They have front mechs that work?
There is that! Funny how we never knew we needed 1x11 until SRAM told us.
I'm still surprised Shimano haven't pushed Di2 as a much lighter alternative with bigger range, they pushed 3x long enough.
To be fair, 1× does free up lots of space to get suspension working properly. Dunno why more don't make use of that. Or maybe their main markets use 2x/3×.......
thisisnotaspoon - MemberThere is that! Funny how we never knew we needed 1x11 until SRAM told us.
Lots of s were using 1x10 before then. A wider range and no need for a chainguide was a bit of a revelation. I'm all for a bit of cynicism, but XX1 hd more to offer than any other innovation I can think of in the last ten years or so
In fairness you might argue that the original Saint groupset was the first to include a specific 1xN option (1x9)...
In the end who really cares though, the pissing contest has been going for a while now and it seems we'll be getting a choice of more and biggerer sprockets, ideally at lower price points too soon... [i]"Competition drives innovation"[/i] and all that...
mrmo - Member
bigger sprockets = more durable, yes it weighs a bit more.But the key point it isn't SRAM!
Really, get over yourself. maybe try it. Been running SRAM for years and not falling foul of the stuff claimed. Over 2 years from X9 mechs before I upgraded to GX which makes the XT look cheap and very heavy for about the same money.
1x9 saint on my freeride bike (Kona stinky) was a bit of a revelation
Needed a chain guide, but then I still do on
It was a pita to pedal up hills but it was the megavalanche when I realised how much better life was with a single ring!
SRAM did great pushing 1x stuff, fortunately shimano have caught up and that's great coz while srams top end stuff is awesome, x9 and below is easily beaaten by deore and slx on price, performance and vfm
Shimano has been playing catch up for a long time, IMHO. It started with SRAM releasing 2x10 and they've maintained a step on Shimano ever since.
If rumours are to be believed, SRAM have a twelve speed transmission in the works, with a usable gear range. The only weakness for SRAM has been their reliance on a proprietary freehub and an expensive cassette.
Shimano seriously need to up their game.
twelve speed transmission in the works,
Well SRAM really have outfoxed shimano with this amazing leap in technology, 12 speed, who'd a thunk it !
To be fair, 1× does free up lots of space to get suspension working properl
A 450gram cassette on the end of your swing-arm will certainly get your suspension working.