[Closed] new Shand Oykel - in carbon!

Meanwhile back in 2011....

[img] [/img]

Maybe I could complain to Trek about using E-stays and a bent seat tube to achieve a 29er with big tyres and ultra short chainstays? And complain to Shand about using the same colour?

Or maybe we just agree that bikes are good and people can make / sell / buy / ride /whatever they like.

You did beat them, but only just, first prototype of what is now the stache was [url= http://www.tetongravity.com/story/bike/the-trek-stache-2015s-most-fun-mountain-bike ]early 2012[/url]

Or maybe we just agree that bikes are good and people can make / sell / buy / ride /whatever they like

Nope (yes really)

How short did you get the chain stays on yours?

Has the website wording been changed now to confirm it is a Chinese frame?

[i]the thread on here showing On-One's 'prototype' of basically this frame at one of the bike shows last year[/i]

I can see the OP on that thread claiming it as a prototype but did on-one?

wwaswas - second pic down, it has a massive 'prototype' sticker on the side of the top tube! (It's black on black so a bit tricky to see...)

I remember reading about a road bike company who used open moulds. They reasoned that they were involved in the lay up process and specified such, there were a few other factors that they could influence, I'd guess cable routing, finish and QC as well as actual material.

Has the website wording been changed now to confirm it is a Chinese frame?

ah, yes, was on phone earlier.

There's a difference between making use of an open mould and buying existing stuff in bulk and the response hints at the latter

I'm done. I wish Shand all the best for the future and hope he carries on making those lovely steel frames. For what it's worth, he's a great chap that worked on my ideas with great communication.

I think now that STW have all had an opportunity to share our thoughts/observations, I, for one, would like to ask the mods to delete this thread. This has been an interesting conversation, but I wouldn't like to think that the existence of our ramblings in the ether is impacting Shand's sales.

That's a tricky one, batfink. I appreciate what it may be doing to Shand's bottom line, but you can't just go round deleting threads that discuss these sort of things.

Lots of boutique brands do this, De Rosa for one sell a frame that's the same as a Ribble and charge an extra whack of money for the privilege. Can't say I begrudge them doing it, it's a nice bike, they make it look better and people who are De Rosa fans are happy to add it to their line up.

That's a tricky one, batfink. I appreciate what it may be doing to Shand's bottom line, but you can't just go round deleting threads that discuss these sort of things.

Why not? S'up to the boss isn't it? It's not a democracy 🙂 (thank god)

It just seems like, justifiably, there's a lot of love for shand on here.... And I worry that all the talk of brand damage on this thread might turn into a self fulfilling prophesy. I think we all admire shand's (original) business model, but being a small business I worry that they might be disproportionately impacted by the existence of this tread - and I don't think anyone on here would want that. This latest move might succeed, or it might fail.... But it should do so on its merits - not because the ramblings of a bunch of muppets like us pop up when anyone types the name of their new bike into the Google.

I agree with batfink. I started the thread as it looked a really nice and interesting bike, and didn't realise the knowledge of the STW would lead to a bit of a rough ride for Shand.

Absolutely no point in deleting the thread - it would just look silly.
As soon as someone buys one and puts up a 'new bike' thread, it would all be covered again.
If anything written was abusive or a lie that would be different.

batfink - Member

A small business I worry that they might be disproportionately impacted by the existence of this tread - and I don't think anyone on here would want that. This latest move might succeed, or it might fail.... But it should do so on its merits

So on its merits, but not on a discussion about those merits?

I agree with batfink. I started the thread as it looked a really nice and interesting bike, and didn't realise the knowledge of the STW would lead to a bit of a rough ride for Shand.

So only positive threads allowed?

But as the OP, you could always message the mods and see if they'll delete it.

Might cause a Streisand effect, tho.

I'm not convinced this thread would do as much damage as any of you suggest. If I was looking for bike, and stumbled across it, I would read, digest and then decide if I wanted to buy from Shand or not. Much like I would do from looking at the Shand website. The thread if anything shows how many people love the Shand offering so much they're willing to talk endlessly about it on a web forum.

I'd be way more wary of buying from a brand that didn't feature in any internet chats. Much better to be out there and talked about, even if not all 100% positive, than not talked about at all.

Can you be sure that a Google from someone that hasn't been on STW would yield same search results? And at least, within the thread, is a response from Shand themselves, rather than a set of forum members expressing thoughts and views..

So on its merits, but not on a discussion about those merits?

I mean the merits of the bike..... Not the idea.

I would usually agree with you, plus the comments on here are actually reasonably sensible, and I think Shand would be wise to heed some of people's concerns.

However, I also think there's an argument for pragmatism here too - most of people comment seem to be worried that Shand are damaging their brand, but the irony is that by the existence of this tread discussing the possibility, we are almost guaranteeing that's the case

I think now that STW have all had an opportunity to share our thoughts/observations, I, for one, would like to ask the mods to delete this thread. This has been an interesting conversation, but I wouldn't like to think that the existence of our ramblings in the ether is impacting Shand's sales.

If I was in the market for a bike like that I'd want to be able to access this thread as it would give me a far better idea of what I'm actually buying. If anything should be changed its the misleading information on their site.

Just because they are a small company doesn't mean they should be protected from critisism if they are misleading potential buyers, regardless of how good their other products are.

Feel free to diversify the range, and increase profit margins, but don't try to pretend its something it isn't

That said I can't see why selling a carbon frame would devalue the brand, unless of course you are an utter bike snob.

I think it would be a bit off to delete this thread when it informs any potential buyer of the misleading website information.

batfink - Member

I would usually agree with you, plus the comments on here are actually reasonably sensible, and I think Shand would be wise to heed some of people's concerns.

However, I also think there's an argument for pragmatism here too - most of people comment seem to be worried that Shand are damaging their brand, but the irony is that by the existence of this tread discussing the possibility, we are almost guaranteeing that's the case

Fair points both, but ultimately, those discussions are driven by what Shand are doing - the products, the website content and te business model are theirirs and theirs alone.

I think the discussion has been fair - people like/dislike the bike, there's near-universal love for their steel products, and there's justified criticism of how they're representing a catalog frame as their own design. I don't think anyone has been unfair to the company,

I think the discussion has been fair - people like/dislike the bike, there's near-universal love for their steel products, and there's justified criticism of how they're representing a catalog frame as their own design. I don't think anyone has been unfair to the company,

I completely agree..... And I do think the critism is warranted, I was just having a pang of guit about us unwittingly damaging that which we all hold dear: a British manufacturing business

A bit like if you found out your mate was cheating on his wife (bear with me here): You wouldn't approve of what he's doing, and you'd probably tell him so..... But you wouldn't tell his wife what he was up to, because that would make you the bad guy.

* awaits requests for pictures of mates wife*

It is of course entirely possible that even with the same mould the layup and choice of carbon fibre and epoxy are completely different.

for example a manufacturer may choose to add a bit more flex in a region, or a bit more stiffness in another. They may choose a higher performance material so less can be used to reduce weight.

This is much the same way you can choose different tube thickness, butting and materials for a metal frame.

Remember a lot of hydroformed alloy frames use off the shelf sections of frame which are bought in, cut and welded so a high end well known International brand from the USA may share a top tube with a small UK brand.

batfink - Member

A bit like if you found out your mate was cheating on his wife (bear with me here): You wouldn't approve of what he's doing, and you'd probably tell h

So my friend has a beautiful, slim British wife, but decides to sneakily import a rather cheap, plastic lookign asian lady who will take pretty much any size that you want her to?

So my friend has a beautiful, slim British wife, but decides to sneakily import a rather cheap, plastic lookign asian lady who will take pretty much any size that you want her to?

A bit like if you found out your mate was cheating on his wife (bear with me here): You wouldn't approve of what he's doing, and you'd probably tell him so..... But you wouldn't tell his wife what he was up to, because that would make you the bad guy.

If it was my best mate that ran shand I'd not be posting on here, but its not...its a business who may potentially sell your mate a frame on the pretence that its not a generic chinese cateloge number

Ironically howeever, I'd never given a 2nd thought to a shand frame, however having read this thread they do have a lovely selection of steel frames and I'm seriously tempted by that stoater!

Do they cutomise it per customer, or are they all just standard sizes/geos etc?

I'd literally never heard of Shand before this thread came up, but now I do. Terrible name for a bike company - sounds like Shand(y) or, Handy. I can't quite decide which.

Neither can I really be arsed to find out more about them either. Most likely they are probably one of those typically cliched STW niche frame manufacturers - only for those [i]in the know[/i], which clearly I am happily not.. 😉

Having checked out that avocado carbon monstrosity online and further research from supposed 'bike geeks' on this thread - the frame is being marketed in a misleading way. The marketing text is almost definitely spouting some very dubious statements about what is seemingly an off-the-shelf frame - and the Shand owner dude hasn't said anything to de-bunk such concerns.

Moreover, the owner's response on this thread was quite condescending IMO. Fair play - if you need to cut a profit on a certain frame - and are prepared to own up to it this need (Good on ya!). But don't pull the wool over your customer's eyes with misleading marketing statements - and don't be disparaging to your potential customer base's concerns on a public forum.

Own goal there, I'd say.

[quote=tpbiker ]Do they cutomise it per customer, or are they all just standard sizes/geos etc?Either way. You can choose a standard size or be measured up and provide your own dimensions for a custom fit.

Oh - and having seen quite a few, they are always stunningly well made and finished.

Shand steel stuff looks, on the whole, lovely. If the carbon frame is a standard mould but Shand have specified the carbon layup etc as mentioned above then they have clearly had some input and that should be mentioned on the website. Having it as it is currently is misleading as it implies they've also specified the geometry which, as far as seems to be the case, is not true. In this case I'm prepared to give them the benefit of doubt and put it down to poor wording but it should be changed on the site. If on the other hand if they've just taken a standard carbon frame which has geometry that looks fine, test ridden it to make sure it's ok and are now passing it off as they are then that's completely misleading. If that is the case then given the somewhat underhand nature of doing so it would put me off buying a steel Shand as I would question the type of person I am dealing with. There's other steel builders out there that can do the same as Shand and their actions, if correct, with this carbon frame would lead me to speak to those other builders first.

It is daft to labour the point, but if you interpret Shand's very open answer...

Importing a product directly from an overseas manufacturer and 'adding value' before selling on to the consumer is not a new business model...
...The thing is, you get to take your choice, you get to decide if buying something direct from the factory with the added risks is something you're happy doing. For some, they'll decide that they'll go that way. Good on them. For others, they'll do the sums, work out how much the extended warranty, custom paint finish, faster delivery, local pre-sales and after-sales care, fitting of headsets and BB etc, availability of spares etc is worth to them, and they'll make a decision.

as this

It is of course entirely possible that even with the same mould the layup and choice of carbon fibre and epoxy are completely different.

for example a manufacturer may choose to add a bit more flex in a region, or a bit more stiffness in another. They may choose a higher performance material so less can be used to reduce weight.

... Then that's fine I guess. I don't doubt the added value at all as described for a lot of people but it is what it is

I should also add that as I mentioned before, I can not fault my Chiner Niner. Absolutely well made, light, stiff... perfect for racing if lacking a little excitment. Under the paint you'll no doubt still be getting a great ride and there's a lot of love for them on MTBR

On more than one occasion I've longingly browsed the Shand website. I love their steel frames and wish I had the money to own one. The addition of the carbon open mould model would in no way put me off buying a steel frame and I don't particularly think it devalues the brand either.

Ironically the one thing that would put me off is the dismissive tone of parts of the Shand reply posted on this thread. STW forumites are your type of customer and judging from some of the threads I've read quite a few already are.

I think posting a reply to this thread at all was probably unwise, to post that particular reply was, well, I'll be diplomatic and say more unwise.

Once again STW forum dwellers think the world revolves around them. Some need to get out and open their eyes to the rest of the (cycling) world a bit more often.

UK manufactured carbon frames (as Mike already commented) can be made here. It's something that we are working on right now. But it takes a lot of time and a lot of money. And when we do it, I guarantee, there'll be a thread on here about how expensive they are compared to Asian imported frames and why don't we just import something from China, paint it and sell it for a third of the price!

If you use the right people in the UK you wont be able to afford to bring anything to market. However from the people i have spoken with theres a fair few cowboys in the UK also s,so maybe the Asian route is preferred

Ironically the one thing that would put me off is the dismissive tone of parts of the Shand reply posted on this thread. STW forumites are your type of customer and judging from some of the threads I've read quite a few already are.

The sense of entitlement of purchasers!! I can see why he would openly state who his type of customer is, if its not you its some other lucky punter who maybe isn't a complete _______.

I could make a carbon frame in the UK. You'd have to be brave to ride it and insane to buy it, but still, Buy British and all that.

(quickly, while I'm still British)

STW forumites are your type of customer

God, I hope not - you lot are a nightmare. I'd never survive in business if I relied on STW forumites 😀

I still like it. If I was in the market for a carbon frame, I might well buy one. Why? Because there's loads of tat coming out of the Far East, and I've seen a lot of broken carbon fibre, I wouldn't trust something bought direct from some company online that some people on a forum said was okay. Whereas if Shand are willing to put their name to it, I'd be reasonably confident that it's not going to break, or if it does they'll sort it rather than me trying to deal with a company I the other side of the world.

I'd literally never heard of Shand before this thread came up, but now I do. Terrible name for a bike company - sounds like Shand(y) or, Handy. I can't quite decide which.

It's his name.

That was a lot to digest.

The first I'd ever heard of Shand was the advert for the Oykel in the print issue of Singletrack that landed on my doormat this week. I thought the bike was beautiful and started searching online. Since then I've learned a whole load about Shand's lovely handbuilt steel and also, now, about this Chinese carbon jobby.

I now want to buy both an Oykel and Stoater.

And yes, Mr Shand would be wise to sleep on this forum replies before posting them. Getting involved on here was a good move, IMHO, but we're definitely his customer base whether he likes it or not.

about this Chinese carbon jobby.

being a Scottish brand, was that intentional?

😉

The Trek Stache Carbon is looking good, probably a whole lot cheaper as a whole bike too...

[url= http://www.shandcycles.com/bikes/hoolie/ ]Hoolie[/url]

Now we're talking, bit slacker than the Bahookie, bit slacker still with a bouncy fork..

That does look nice.

Not so sure about the forks....bang a pike on there and we're talking

Yes indeed.

Would be good with a Lefty.

When I saw the ad for the oykel because I knew of their Scottish origins I thought 'brilliant - a British manufacturer investing in domestic carbon production'.
Hmmm. I feel shamd.

An imported badged up number will never be for me. I think it will dilute his brand. I make furniture using native grown timbers. Even when I'm very busy I'm never going to make a fortune, but I really care about the provenance of the things I make and I believe that my customers do as well. Shand makes terrific steel frames and I can't see there's any reason for them to paint up generic frames except to generate revenue. That's fine and totally his decision, but rightly or wrongly to my mind it diminishes his other work.

Looks like the on-one version is on its way

View this post on Instagram

Sexy catalogue shot:

[img] [/img]

😆

Sexy catalogue shot:

But... but... it doesn't have sexy paint 😆

I like it. Alot. It's not my type of riding but I think it's a looker and the paint is Bob on.

Crack on Shand. Sick of standard look shiiite. Marmite design products rock.

Maybe On-One could get Shand to paint theirs and put some spurious awesome from the UK stickers on there?

On-One's actually looks pretty nice in 650+ form, and not a bad price (£1300 inc dropper):

[url= http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/CBOORAN27PLUSNX1/on-one-rango-carbon-275--sram-nx1-mountain-bike ]On-One Rango[/url]

[img] [/img]

It's also subtly different - straighter top tube, thinner chain stays etc... As is usual, no good info on geometry, full bike specification, frame only price etc.