You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Good lord! I think i've just seen my next bike! Is that green one a 650b+?
It's a 650B+, 29er, 29+
Like a carbon Stache
Rear dropouts a bit of a fudge, some kind of flip chip would have been much nicer.
"It's a 650B+, 29er, 29+ "
Yea i get that,but are the wheels that are on that one in the photo... you know what i mean. 🙂
Yes please. In gold flake... 😉
Hmm. The elevated chainstay is very function over form, to put it politely.
And the colour they chose for the pics is very "old 1970s bathroom suite in a horrible rented student flat"
And the fork is hideous.
And they've put the stem from a canal barge on it.
I think I'll have one of their beautiful steel bikes instead, thanks.
Gosh, how the mighty have fallen..
Shand was, to me, a frame builder creating beautiful steel frames in the UK to customers spec. Now he's just ordering Chinese frames, slapping some 'Shand' stickers on it and trebling the price. Just capitalizing on the Shand name. Like a glorified On-One.
[img] https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR0GaTtoyweDqO72B07Uk2dz_pYG-38_uyMPjnyROufh2U5Lf5q [/img]
I loved the Stoater and would have one if i could afford it. This doesnt appear to have the Shand USP other than the name on a sticker. Its a shame but i guess a generic chinese frame means more people can afford a 'Shand'. Though im no longer sure what that means....
And the colour they chose for the pics is very "old 1970s bathroom suite in a horrible rented student flat"
We just ripped one out of our new house.
Plumber said they've come back into fashion (a bit like G-plan and danish teak furniture) and he's actually installed one recently!
Gosh, how the mighty have fallen..
Shand was, to me, a frame builder creating beautiful steel frames in the UK to customers spec. Now he's just ordering Chinese frames, slapping some 'Shand' stickers on it and trebling the price. Just capitalizing on the Shand name. Like a glorified On-One.
I was about to defend Shand, but..........
Forks:
[img] 
[/img]
Dropouts:
[img] 
[/img]
Bend in the top tube, seatstay bridge, etc etc. Is it just a catalog frame?
Same rubbish geometry and 27.2 seatpost as well. What a strange thing for them to do. Bringing together two polar opposites of the frame building world and expecting it to wash.
Can someone prove it's a catalogue frame?
I like it, anyway.
No idea,
[IMG] 
[/IMG]
[IMG] 
[/IMG]
More details here http://www.workswellbikes.com/web/view/161.html
Does seem an odd thing to do IMHO regardless if its a catalogue frame or not 😕
Looks like the pound isn't the only thing devaluing this week 😉
Can someone prove it's a catalogue frame?I like it, anyway.
I quite like the look of it too, but the outward appearance is the same, and the chinese frame is a year or so old now, so not like they've copied a Shand.
The geometry matches exactly, with just a couple of very tiny differences, +/- a mm here and there, like the headtube is 2mm longer, but that could be a different headset standard.
Unless there's some backstory to it, like Shand developed the frame and the factory retained the rights to the mold, like early Planet-X stuff and the factory has gotten it to market first?
100% catalog, with what looks to be no change at all.
Alibaba and Aliexpress is littered with these. The geometry is identical and all of the cable routing exists is the same. These have been available for a few years too. Nothing new or exciting, let alone innovative.
Appears to be zero thought and effort gone into this.
I rather like it but then I still have a bathroom in a very similar colour!
The one thing I'd struggle to live with though is that rear derailleur cable routing, horrible. That and the fact that unlike many of their other bikes it won't take a Rohloff.
.. and the fact you can get the same frame and fork for £400.
That's some expensive paint & decals (and I suppose CS/warranty).
They're probs just buying them from Aliexpress and repainting them 😉
I wonder how their production control compares to Evil...
Shand = "British made custom and production steel road bikes and adventure touring bikes" - so how does this work in that context.
In my view wrong on every level. It shouldn't, but its actually putting me off buying the Stoater I've had my eye on.
I'll stick with my Stache for now 🙂
In my view wrong on every level. It shouldn't, but its actually putting me off buying the Stoater I've had my eye on.
If selling a boatload of these makes a Stoater cheaper for me, then I am all for them 🙂
post deleted
Bah, ninja edit 🙂
I don't have a problem if Shand was wanting to produce a series of off the peg frames in Asia to keep up with demand. It's what Jeff Jones did- and it worked. This just seems to be detracting from the brand that Shand has been building for years. People go to a handmade frame builder because it's special and you are involved in the process. This is no different from On-One. No way would I be interested in buying a Shand now.
That has to hurt when your fabois kick you in the nuts.
The people can't be lied to it seems no matter how you put make up on the pig.
I don't have a problem if Shand was wanting to produce a series of off the peg frames in Asia to keep up with demand. It's what Jeff Jones did- and it worked. This just seems to be detracting from the brand that Shand has been building for years. People go to a handmade frame builder because it's special and you are involved in the process. This is no different from On-One. No way would I be interested in buying a Shand now.
+1
If he'd had a series of "Made in Taiwan" Stoaters, Bahookies, Skinnymalinkies made in standard S/M/L sizes, in nice tubesets, for a "bit more than a Cotic" they'd sell like hotcakes.
Like Curtis did with their T45 UK made frames and 4130 Taiwanese frames. Didn't (that I noticed) devalue the UK brand, but got a lot of people on Curtis bikes.
Those are the forks I bought for my Pact 🙂
I wonder how many some of these Chinese companies would sell if they got their marketing act together.
[b]This[/b]
[img] 
[/img]
[b]vs this[/b]
[img] 
[/img]
I just feel sorry for people that don't read these kinda threads and buy one thinking they're getting something a bit more, well "unique" 😐
It's a bit..
[IMG] 
[/IMG]
If he'd had a series of "Made in Taiwan" Stoaters, Bahookies, Skinnymalinkies made in standard S/M/L sizes, in nice tubesets, for a "bit more than a Cotic" they'd sell like hotcakes.
Big +1 for this. I'd have a skinny.
I like it. Nice lines. Does anyone really think a carbon frame for £1000 would ever be handmade in the UK? Of course it's a far-Eastern frame.
.. and the fact you can get the same frame and fork for £400.
That's some expensive paint & decals (and I suppose CS/warranty).
£480 according to the link above, but the $/£ has dropped a bit recently! Add VAT, and a god paint job is going to be £250 or so, and it doesn't look too expensive any more, especially as you're also buying a UK company to moan at if anything goes wrong.
. Does anyone really think a carbon frame for £1000 would ever be handmade in the UK? Of course it's a far-Eastern frame.
Why not there's 350 quid in it.
I don't like that particular colour but the red frame on the linked page does look lovely
Why not there's 350 quid in it.
Because we don't have the manufacturing infrastructure to mass produce carbon frames, or the cheap labour.
Damnit! Still wrestling over the Stoater/Stooshie dilemma for my dream bike collection. Now this
Looks great.
Because we don't have the manufacturing infrastructure to mass produce carbon frames, or the cheap labour.
I wouldn't have thought they'd be mass produced. Isn't Hope making a UK carbon frame? And there are a few places with the expertise.
"And the colour they chose for the pics is very "old 1970s bathroom suite in a horrible rented student flat"
My nana had that colour suite in her bathroom. It smelled funny too.
How much would that frame be if you bought it direct from the Far East?
Edit: Oh.
"£480 according to the link above"
😳
£1000 is a bit of a mark-up for shipping, taxes and a bit of paint (is it painted here or there?).
How much would that frame be if you bought it direct from the Far East?
£400-£480 depending on where you look, and what the £ is doing.
Because we don't have the manufacturing infrastructure to mass produce carbon frames, or the cheap labour.
The whole point of someone like Shand is that it's a bespoke, custom & low volume producer. His whole business is based off this, not mass production. I would bet he could charge a premium over steel to offer bespoke carbon frames. I've seen the frame and fork combo for £340 listed, and that's a one off purchase. Presumably Shand will be getting a wholesale discount.. plus he's got the other perks of being a business. In other words- it would be a lot cheaper for him then what Ben's listed above.
There's quite a few low key frame builders that are building in carbon, including some FS material hybrids like Swarf- Steel front triangle and carbon rear, or Olsen Bikes that integrate a pinion gearbox.
My guess is he wanted to capitalize on the brand he's created and sell some cheapo Chinese Shand branded stuff to increase the margins. Seems to be how lots of the big guys do it with a strong fan base and loyal customers. Not sure it'll work for Shand though. The passionate cycling community is quite small and those interested in a custom bike frame are even smaller.
Shand's on this forum, I'd love for him to voice his opinion and possibly explain the direction he's taking. I'm sure someones made him aware of this thread.
If you want to see this business model turned up to 11 then take a look at the likes of Ritte. Cheaper frames with even more upcharge. Paint jobs sell bikes people 🙂
Ritte never had the kudos of Shand though. Didn't Ritte go for chinese open mould stuff from the start and tried to palm them off as something special? Super expensive with a fancy paint job.
I know they do some steel/alu stuff but think damage was done.
Why would anyone want a Chinese Trek Stache CF copy when it costs more than a whole Stache bike?
Plus the engineering in the Stache is brilliant, and far superior, as light etc??
Ritte never had the kudos of Shand though. Didn't Ritte go for chinese open mould stuff from the start and tried to palm them off as something special? Super expensive with a fancy paint job.
True it isn't apples to apples but it goes to show that even if you introduce yourself as a design company and are pretty open about using basic Chinese frames then it isn't a barrier to making a ton of money. I don't think they ever tried to palm them off as something special but people did buy in to the whole design and culture thing which seems to be huge on the roadie side at the moment (clothing is another huge example of this).
As far as Shand goes, there's no denying it's an odd move. Just wanted to point out there are plenty of mugs who'll pay for pretty paint 🙂
Because we don't have the manufacturing infrastructure to mass produce carbon frames
Ben I will have to agree yet disagree with you here,one reason I know you can make a frame in this country in carbon is because its been done and 3 years ago we had a visit from some taiwanese people asking how do we make things cheaper, we saw their price for making stuff and what we could make it for (high end admittedly) then proved it out
Seems to be how lots of the big guys do it with a strong fan base and loyal customers. Not sure it'll work for Shand though. The passionate cycling community is quite small and those interested in a custom bike frame are even smaller
It never hurt vanilla workshop with speedvagen or RIITE I know several other builders who are trying this same approach not only to survive but to get a return back on the years they put in
now before someone jumps in and says f-you mike you failed at it we didn't really fail but you learn some very very hard lessons about business
Doing what I do now when I toned down the bike stuff I actually earned more money when I went for my first shit back in industry than the whole bicycle making excercise ever did, it did nothing but make a loss
Admittedly all the stuff is paid for now and it could be profitable now there's not money flying out the door for cleanrooms and CNC lathes but here's the skinny Its easier to make lotsa money machining and molding parts for race cars than a dropout or a product you are going to have some hypercritical nobber emailing backwards and forwards for a month.
Making stuff in a shed for the love and adoration of it is awesome , you do the frame building course get a bit of a following and the orders just miraculously come flooding in, if they don't hope doesn't float and it doesn't pay the mortgage
For every ten customers who are awesome there will be one customer who is a proffesional bellend and will literally suck up any profit in time alone from the previous 9 sales, if its a low margin business (which people think bikes isnt) you really are screwed.
Dont rely on anybody IN THE UK , do everything yourself , because if you have to rely on someone else even if all your ducks are in a row you will invariably be let down and then let others down, its a cumulative effect because the people who do make or do process what you ask are a bit thin on the ground and this can go right down to the raw material
when that 10k you just spent a month machining that wanted to turn into a 100k gets scrapped in transit when you only sent it 20 miles down the road you know its not worth working your arse off for nuthin.
The whole lets support british manufacture ethos leaves faster than england in a football tournament when peoples hands need to go in their pocket it seems , as you can see yes its a China frame it gets painted up in wherever, your supporting a brand you believe in , Shand the guy has an overhead that needs paying and employs staff, one of whom is arguably one of the best Tig welders in the Uk biz afaic, he also has a child and family like the rest of us , so maybe he didn't just pull a figure of 480 quid out of his arse in a hope that his business survives. Maybe he thinks this figure is what each day of my life is worth to do this job the reality if you don't think the guy is worth it then don't pay it but don't have a ****ing pop at a guy who's at least trying to push and grow his business .
its a tough gig ,if hes making a living and keeping people employed in a modern manufacturing era without calling it quits not going the easy route and getting a job in any industry that pays a shedload more than this does ,and still has a love for bicycles I will take my hat off to him
Just wanted to point out there are plenty of mugs who'll pay for pretty paint
Yeah, the thing is that some of the Chinese will offer you to paint it, ironically with more colour choices than Shand. People just want to buy into Shand. Like Apple, Audi or Santa Cruz, just that now they're buying an inferior product.
To be fair, he has finally sorted out the cables for once
To be fair, [s]he[/s] China has [s]finally[/s] sorted out the cables [s]for once[/s]
I've bitched a bit in this thread. I really like Shand and the whole process of dealing with him has been fantastic. I just think it's sad to see him take this route. I think he'd have plenty of scope in growing & increasing margins by commissioning a series of frames in China (as discussed before on this thread).
Of course it is a catalogue frame but why does that matter. If they had to cut their own moulds then it would be say £10k per mould per size. Probably £100k investment. We all know we can buy super cheap frames from China but many of us are concerned about the quality, safety, being ripped off and whether it will ride like a dog. This way Shand have covered all these bases + giving you warranty backup, better colours, no customs duties and delivery within a few day.
Yes it would be great if they had their own design but this isn't really economically possible. Also remember that most steel frames are just made up of catalogue tubes where all the dimensions and spec is predefined by Reynolds, etc. All the frame builder is doing is sticking the tubes together. I know it is a bit more than that and there are more variables but there also are with getting carbon frames made.
I think there is a massive differences between an On One catalogue frame and a Shand.
I think there is a massive differences between an On One catalogue frame and a Shand.
... and that is?
Both suppliers have to ensure the frames pass the same test, both the frames are covered by warranty and other selling laws/regulations. At least On-one reflect the catalogue origins in their price. What's the USP of the Shand over On-One?
I think there is a massive differences between an On One catalogue frame and a Shand.
Yeah the cost!!
I don't understand this move at all, it looks a mess of a bike trying to be all things to all men, but will probably do nothing well.
They forgot to remove this from the Bahookie pages:
As with all of our bikes, the frame is manufactured by us in our workshop in Central Scotland
They forgot to remove this from the Bahookie pages:As with all of our bikes, the frame is manufactured by us in our workshop in Central Scotland
To be fair it looks as if they paint it in scotland. May be they could offer the painting service for, say, £250 and people can source their own frame from aliexpress and everyones a winner.
I was referring to the "all of our bikes" statement, the "Ordering" section was correctly updated to (emphasis mine):
All our [b]steel[/b] bikes are fabricated and built to order in our workshop in Central Scotland
Well said Mick McD - took some guts to lay all that out. You hit exactly the reasons why I'll only ever make frames as a hobby and never for paying customers.
Good luck to Shand with whatever they do to grow the brand / range of bikes on offer. Making a steel version of that design would take an awful lot of development time to get durable enough for mass consumption (speaking from experience - I rode to work today on a home made steel E-stay 29er)
Why is this £250 being banded about for paint?
Fat Creations can paint you something beautiful for that with different layers, colours & patterns. A block colour is around £120 by Argos & others for a consumer. It'll be less than that for Shand. He's got economics of scale.
There is excellent composite manufacturing capability in the UK, only it's consumed making parts for F1 cars, aerospace and the 3000 back-ends of $159m fighter jets. Ironically, it was western companies that offshored work to Taiwan and China to save money and it's pointless trying to compete against what is often semi-skilled work (once you've worked out how to do it). I don't buy the notion that one brand's open mould frame is better than another - it's against the principles of efficient manufacturing to reduce scale and increase inventory when you can buy off the shelf and paint as you need them.
or a product you are going to have some hypercritical nobber emailing backwards and forwards for a month
😀
My record is 12 years to sell a bike. Then he never rode it.
When you manufacture something in the bike industry, it seems to me that you can get a lot of free marketing, fans, word of mouth, loyalty, etc. But in return you also get people thinking that they have some kind of a stake in your business and the ability to take offence at every decision.
Very odd.
Had a look around at the sites of some of the various well known British bike builders.
Cotic: British designed, built in Taiwan
Stooge: British designed, built in Taiwan
Travers: British designed, built in Britain
Shand: British designed, built in Britain (at least for steel)
Also I think the lower end Orange bikes are Taiwanese with just frames like the Five and Patriot being made in the UK.
Don't that's the point Whitestone, here Shand are re-branding an existing frame designed and made in the far east with no Shand input design or otherwise
how do you know that?
It shouldn't, but its actually putting me off buying the Stoater I've had my eye on.
Why would it do that, surely you like the Stoater for what it is?
Have you the thread pictonroad? I was looking at those frames about a year ago on ebay.
Cotic: British designed, built in Taiwan
Stooge: British designed, built in Taiwan
Travers: British designed, built in Britain
Shand: British designed, built in Britain (at least for steel)
Completely different business models. Stooge, Cotic, Travers, On-one, Bird, Airdrop, Whyte & others make a big deal about 'British Designed', not 'Built in Britain'. Orange produce all hardtails in Asia and all FS frames in the UK. They ALL have input into the geometry, cable routing and material specification.
Shand opened a catalogue, pointed at something random and said 'I want that one'. No designing or manufacturing input, so nothing at all like the others you pointed out. Nothing innovative.
Other than owning a Cotic Solaris I've no connection with any of the manufacturers so I see myself as pretty neutral on this.
Is it a previously available frame or one that has been tweaked or one that is genuinely new (even if based on a similar design)?
Interesting that the HT length is measured as 2mm longer on the Shand which throws the reach/ stack/ TT measurements out by a mm or two compared to the Workswell despite all other fixed points of the frame being identical (st, cs, bb drop, hta, sta, offset, trail, etc).
Innocent measurements with a slightly different headset perhaps or deliberately fractionally different so people compare the two and say no way is that a Chinese off the peg thing 🙂 The plot thickens 😉 *
* Joking of course
Interesting that the HT length is measured as 2mm longer on the Shand which throws the reach/ stack/ TT measurements out by a mm or two compared to the Workswell despite all other fixed points of the frame being identical (st, cs, bb drop, hta, sta, offset, trail, etc).Innocent measurements with a slightly different headset perhaps or deliberately fractionally different so people compare the two and say no way is that a Chinese off the peg thing The plot thickens *
* Joking of course
I saw that, I presume it's a different headset or something (headtube is 2mm longer too)?
I quite like that, and for UK backup and decent paint job I think the price is fair.
It doesn't quite fit the Shand image though. (I would like to see one built in steel though....)
FWIW I have the 29er non chubby version of the Sobato frame there. Nice it is too.
I quite like that, and for UK backup and decent paint job I think the price is fair.
Assuming the assumptions are fair to assume then you are paying £400-500 for the privilege of the logo and Shand keeping some stock for speedy warranty work. Cost all in of the Workswell type frame and fork (for one unit bear in mind too) is ~$500 with shipping included and then you have to add the usual taxes on top (was £30 for me IIRC). Most of these Chinese *outlets* also do custom paint for next to nothing so that adds very little cost... not awful and not the only company to do it but just a bit odd that's all
TBH I don't really see why someone wanting to offer a carbon frame and forks wouldn't use an open mould. If it's been tested and is offered with a warranty and a nice paintjob I'd far rather pay a bit more than risking it and going direct.
Why invest £££s in a different mould that will look a bit different but, in reality, function the same?
I'm not keen on being limited to 1x drivetrains though, so I'm out.
I quite like the look/versatility of it, just wondered where you can get it sprayed by the "Chinese outlets" as there's nothing that I can find, any links would be great.
just wondered where you can get it sprayed by the "Chinese outlets" as there's nothing that I can find, any links would be great
Dickish answer, but almost all of them. You may not find it on aliexpress or ebay as that is ready to roll stuff, but if you contact the outlets and say I want this frame, these forks, this BB, these dropouts and it has to be red (more fasterer of course) then they'll give you a price (to haggle on 🙂 ). My buying experience was contact several reputable outlets (see the ginormous MTBR thread) and let them compete against each other for the best offer, check geo, check actual availability, etc.
I quite like the look/versatility of it, just wondered where you can get it sprayed by the "Chinese outlets" as there's nothing that I can find, any links would be great.
[url= http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Chinese-OEM-full-carbon-fat-bike-frame-650b-fat-mountain-bike-carbon-fiber-bicycle-frames/921274_32472396025.html ]HERE [/url] you go
Q:How to have our own paint design?
A:You can put your own logo on the frames and paint whatever color you like.Q:How to have our own product design?
A:Tell us what your idear, Our product design team will help you realize your ideas.
It's possible that these frame are painted and have decals applied before they reach Shand. He can just hold X stock on each colour.
Folk have been buying bike lights made in the FE but "supported" by a UK seller for years. I see little difference. Yes, it's a slight change of strategy for Shand, but if it's profitable then maybe it'll keep him in business selling nice steel frames at a reasonable price.
As for Shand having "economies of scale" when it comes to painting, that shoes a fundamental misunderstanding of the scale of the Shand business
Yep - 28 colours and 4 sizes. It's a good job he's selling thousands of these. I'm beginning to think that you haven't even read the webpage.It's possible that these frame are painted and have decals applied before they reach Shand. He can just hold X stock on each colour.