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Sorry for the sensationalist headline, but it boils my piss that this is even a thing.
Link to click-baity story in local rag:
You've been warned
Basically the Verderers have only granted a one-year continuation for cycle access in the New Forest, and that only on the premise that FE crack down on 'out of control' cyclists. "using GPS and other data, targeted ranger patrols will be planned at hotspots for off-track cycling".
"However, the plans for managing cycling were described as “feeble” by Verderers’ Court member Anthony Pasmore, writing in his New Forest Notes column in the A&T last week.
He said: “We are not dealing with family parties or small urban children, innocently straying off the permitted routes through a lack of understanding, but with gangs of hardcore bikers determined to ride where they please, disturbing the peace and cutting up the Forest.”
Context: The verderers allow access to a forest track 'network' which is anything but, not linking up with anywhere remotely useful. There's plenty of unauthorised haulage tracks which can't be used - ofetn ones which pass near verderers cottages, which would help link up other tracks. 30 years of lobbying for use of just 2 or 3 of these has come to nothing.
Verderers and commoners have hugely increased the number of stock on the forest, absolutely decimating many areas which are impassable bogs now. 4,000 ponies and 3,000 head of cattle, to make use of subsidies - Brexit may well curtail some of that. But their statements that cycling is destroying habitats is nothing compared to the damage this over farming of wild areas is doing (my conjecture vs their conjecture, neither of which is based on fact, but numbers alone tell a tale).
I can't believe in this day and age, and in a National Park, that such a self-centred organisation persists and has so much control. And its not like I can go anywhere else at the moment!
The Verderers do appear (and always have appeared) intent on this path and I see no changes coming any time soon. Agreed that the issue of impassable bogs seems to have got worse over the previous 5years. Out of interest do you know the general areas of where these hotspots are as having ridden the New Forest on/off (south of the A31) for over 20years, I've never found anything of techie interest!
When they say hotspots, I think they mean the occasional bike leaving a tyre print near a commoners house. There's nothing you could describe as a mountaoin biking hotspot in the forest!
Th eproblem is the 'network' doesnt link up or get you anywhere, so people go for a ride, find themselves in the middle of nowhere, and have to use off-piste tracks to get where they want to go. The verderers are happy to perpetuate this situation as it fuels their fire. We've lobbied for over 30 years to add a couple of fire road tracks to teh network to link up key areas - nothing required as all existing - but continuously shut down as this would promote cycling within the forest.
The state of some of teh forest lawns now through over-grazing, trampling and comoners driving over them is shocking - just a somme-like sea of mud. Then they blame cyclists for destruction of the forest!
Reading the article the first thing I thought was that his tyre was a bit slick and racy 🙂
Not being a local is the law of the land different in the New Forest. If so surely trespass is a civil matter rather than a criminal one and people on bikes should just carry on riding it?
Just did a quick google on Verders and Wikipedia (sorry) says; "The [Verders] Court has the same status as a Magistrates Court." and that they manage it on behalf of the crown and to protect the commoners rights or such like.
So does that mean they can take you to their little magistrates court for riding a cheeky trail? Finally surely we're classed as commoners and have an equal right to use it for cycling, just the same way a common farmer can let his livestock trample all over it?
Doesn’t surprise me as it’s pretty much the capital for swivel eyed anti bike nimbys down there. Totally agree on the impact the roaming stock (and horse riders) do in loads of places, it’s churned into a quagmire most of the winter. The erosion argument is bollocks obviously when you compare it to that. I’ve also never come across anything at all exciting in many years of riding it but I’ve kinda given up exploring, because I can’t be bothered with the potential grief.
I can’t see them banning it completely as it would have a huge effect on the local industry. Brockenhurst gets rammed with hire bikes in the summer, plus lots of campers bringing bikes too. But I guess if somewhere were to go ultra militant with it, it would be the New Forest.
Mmmm,,, Kinder ScoutNew ForesT Trespass anyone?
This boils my piss.
The verderers are a joke. Half of them (5) are elected by the commoners. The commoners (roughly 300 people) are those with rights (either interited or bought) to graze their animals on the forest, and of the ones I've met, are awful people.
Yes, the verderers *SHOULD* be protecting the forest, but they aren't: They object to changing road junctions that kill cyclists (Ipley). They close carparks focusing visitors into increasingly overused areas, and go on to object (block) toilets and bins in those carparks due to aesthetics.
the cycle network is totally unusable outside of 3 mile loops from the overused remaining carparks.
I've lived here my whole life and have been all over it on my MTB since the early 90s. it's been the same all that time.
I gave up fighting years ago, but would love to know if cyclists are actually represented in any way in the New forest now?
Do they really expect anyone to listen to their antiquated nimbyism.
Why anyone would travel to the New Forest to ride a bike there is beyond me - too much traffic and pretty dull scenery. Carry on driving and go for a ride in the Purbecks instead.
Do they really expect anyone to listen to their antiquated nimbyism.
Sadly, yes a lot of people here do.
I'm 6 months into living in Scotland after 20 years in Hampshire. It's fair to say the absurdity of the situation in the NF through a Scottish lens is bordering on comical.
The GPS thing - do they meant Strava heat maps that they can see where people ride? Probably should be avoided having your rides public and adding to their 'evidence'.
Its a shame because if they gave bikes the same access as horses ie everywhere, it would be really pleasant to ride there. Some of the higher up, grassy heathland can be fun to ride. And there’s so much of it so you’d never get overcrowding. But that’s not happening.
Or some well placed GPS ‘art’...
Verderers?
Commoners?
WTF is this nonsense?
I used to have to travel to / through the New Forest to see my mum in New Milton, sadly she passed away last year but before she did I spent quite a lot of time caring for her and so alternated weeks there with my brother.
Took my gravel bike down and had a few fairly nice rides, explored a bit, was ok.
Didn't really change my mind that in all the years I have spent visiting since she moved there in about 1988 I have never been sad to leave the area, it's too busy, there seems to be a massive wealth inequality, large numbers of expensive fast cars crawling around at 30mph, shitty down at heal places mixed in with bloody expensive hamlets, bland scenery, restrictive medieval laws, I guess millions of old daily mail reading Brexit voters, schools advertised as "bespoke education", boring boring boring boring boring. Soon as the house is sold I will never ever have to go there again thank god.
“Urban children” was the phrase that got me. That’s all you need to know.
hate it, the Verderers can shove the whole forest up their small minded arses
Bit much Nick! You could say something similar about anywhere in England. The new forest is a lovely place to ride a bike. There are miles
of well-drained gravel tracks that take you through oak forests, heathland and down to the sea. Some days during the week in the winter you can ride 100km and hardly see another soul.
This stuff about the verderers is the same noise that I’ve heard pretty much every year my whole life. I just ignore it, there’s nothing they can do about cyclists. Ironically if a sensible proportion of the Nf was officially open to cycling I’d be more likely to follow the rules. As it is, I’ll continue to ride my bike where I like, responsibly, shutting gates, taking my litter home and leaving no trace I was there (other than supporting local independent coffee and cake shops). Consequently I’ll be doing less damage than the vast majority of visitors.
I live right on (outside) the border of the NF and agree with Dovebiker that nobody in their right mind would travel to ride the forest. In honesty, I don't think they do - not purely to ride and then go home again
It's a large bog with some dry patches and in winter is ruined in large areas by passage of hooves - not boots and certainly not tyres
The verderers claim that the increased numbers aren't all "on" the forest - oh, no, there's thousands of animals in the little fenced fields you see dotted about (strokes chin). Course, the commoners get a grant for the stock as 40mpg said - and the verderers collect a marking fee for each one; vested interests all round
I have enjoyed a few gravel rides there. Mainly out of season. I suspect summer wood be harder work with more people about. My memory of the Strava heat map is that I couldn't find any off piste hot spots. I'm not saying that there is no evidence of riding off the permitted routes. But it's nothing like say Woburn where it stands out like a spot light at any scale
The Verderers (and Anthony Pasmore in particular) are weapons grade *****. I'm just over the border in Dorset but regularly ride out into the Forest. I mostly stick to north of the A31 to avoid the majority of the visitors and walkers. I will be giving the Verderers and their rules a thorough ignoring and will continue to ride any of the large gravel paths anywhere in the forest. The couple of Rangers I have spoken with when out riding think that they are arseholes too.
It's not just cyclists they hate. They have banned the Beaulieu model flying club from flying in the summer months. What is the point in having an RC model flying club that is only allowed to operate in winter when you can't fly most of the time. Apparently this is to "protect the wildlife".
Pricks, the lot of them
The New Forest is a nice area only cycled in there once when I was down there for MTB bike race no hills and I have been MTBing for 33 years as said above Purbecks and Wareham forest/Puddletown forest are way better they have problem with Roadies down there let alone people going off-road.
'Gangs' of 'hardcore bikers' eh. Crivens.
Sounds like Sons of Anarchy.
It's a little bit of 2020 feudalism isn't it.
‘Gangs’ of ‘hardcore bikers’ eh. Crivens.
Sounds like Sons of Anarchy.
Except instead of violence you are surrounded by the gang and have to listen to a Shimano vs SRAM debate until you lose the will to live and hang yourself from a nearby tree.
Joking aside its hard to believe this sort of nimbyism and control over a large tract of land is still allowed
Except instead of violence you are surrounded by the gang and have to listen to a Shimano vs SRAM debate until you lose the will to live and hang yourself from a nearby tree.
Oi I resemble that remark 🤔. Actually that's a good ploy, once lockdown ends we can take the nimbys to the pub and just talk about drivetrains, preferred bottom bracket standards, what tyres for intermittent bog and heathland, that sort of thing and then their heads will explode from bike talk overload like that scene at the end of Kingsman?
I only ride in the NF if it's a ride that involves meeting friends or we've popped down for a quick weekend camping just find it a bit meh.
Years ago I recall one of the verderers or commoners was outed for running a bike friendly business under one name and constantly slagging off cyclists in the local paper under another.
Don't get me wrong though... for young, generic, family friendly cycling it should be blooming fantastic, a massive network of gravel tracks, more tea shops than you can eat, some good pubs and wide open spaces with animals.
It's not the cyclists injuring horses and cattle is it? Where is the ire for the abysmal driving I see every time I visit?
Bit much Nick!
No. He's right.
I'm actually from New Milton originally. I lived there until I left to go to Uni. The 'forest' (its not a forest but a bunch of crappy heathland bogs and plantation forestry) is pretty in a sort of plain way, but once I got out I realised how parochial it all is.
It's relentlessly crap for what I consider quality mtb, and has bugger all elevation.
I should think gravelistas like it a great deal for exactly the same reasons.
I won't voluntarily ever go back there, even to be buried in the family plot.
I enjoy the odd ride there, mostly with the family. I’ve always assumed that anything gravel is perfectly fine to ride, given it’s a fire road. I take it that’s not the case? What can they actually do about it just have a right old moan at you?
Well, I like it
@curto80 yeah you're right, I'm completely over reacting, its weird, it just feels so unwelcoming, plus it's hard to find a decent pub, at least around New Milton, Brockenhurst etc, and I definitely like it more in winter, way less people, summer is awful, taking my mum to Mudeford the traffic aaaarghh.
And breath 🙂
Yeah winter is by far the best time of year. One of those cold crisp days when the sun shines. Love a run across dearlepe on days like that.
Sounds a bit like the 6000 acre Ashdown Forest in Sussex. Bikes are hated and despite previous battles, no progress has been made as far as I know, the board of conservators and their archaic Acts and Byelaws deem it incompatible with other users of the forest.
Probably crap riding anyway but it's the principle that large areas can be made off limits that needs to be fought.
gangs of hardcore bikers determined to ride where they please, disturbing the peace
Brilliant! WTF is the New Forest in post apocalyptic Australia? I’m nowhere near the new forest but now I want to go there dressed as Toecutter and ride about making motorbike noises.
Don’t forget these are the people who for years vetoed any changes to a junction where multiple people were killed or seriously injured, in order to preserve 72 square metres of grass.
First time I rode an MTB in the Forest was 30 years ago almost to the day. The exact same vapid arguments were happening then, too.
This is my job. I’ve been writing a presentation on this very subject today.
It’s not quite as simple as it all seems. The press article probably doesn’t accurately represent the thoughts around the issue. Papers want to sell papers so pick sensationalist views to represent local issues which doesn’t really help in finding a solution long term.
The Forest is a great place to cycle, there are loads of nice places to cycle but most of the network is gravel tracks, you’re right, the current available tracks are only a proportion of the man-made gravel track network that could be used. I moved here 20 yrs ago from Wales with a full suss, found that boring and moved onto a rigid mtb and now ride a carbon gravel rocket. It’s the best bike for the New Forest.
Grazing aside, the Forest is very important ecologically, in a European context even and it’s designations uphold this. It’s the biggest mosaic of lowland heathland, valley mire (peat reserve) and ancient pasture woodland in Western Europe. It has some of the most undisturbed catchments and cleanest streams and rivers in the country. Some of the oldest and most ecologically rich trees in Europe are here, in vast numbers. Someone once described it to me as being like the uk’s rainforest. The soils are so poor and thin it was never attractive for farming so never got dug up and “improved”, it is so boggy that nobody could build on it. It’s got pretty much every conservation designation known and is home to plants and animals that are not surviving or doing well in the rest of the uk. Some (wetland birds for example) aren’t even doing that well here now for various reasons.
Recreationally the Forest also gets 15.7 million day visits per yr. that’s a lot. The place is rammed every weekend at the moment. People come here because it’s a great place to visit, there’s plenty of access and it’s near to where they live.
Balancing those two things above isn’t easy, even without the commoning (verderers) angle. The Forest is managed by Forestry England but we need consent of Natural England, the Verderers (for some things) and the National Park Authority to get things changed or improved. Balancing meeting legislation, which we are obliged to by law, with meeting the needs of the public and also improving the ecological value of the place, on a limited budget isn’t easy.
We all want to ride our bikes everywhere we want to in the rest of England don’t we? Most places realistically we can’t. We have to stick to outdated bridleways and permissive routes officially in other places. The Forest is no different. There is no legal right to ride a bike anywhere unfortunately as there are very few bridleways etc due to access legislation dating from 1925. The permitted cycle network was an attempt to solve that and get some legitimate permissive access for cyclists.
It’s a bit of a catch 22 at the moment. The network isn’t really a network and doesn’t join up. It’s 25 yrs old, was a compromise then, and is out of date; cycling is different today, bikes are different, habits have changed etc. Gravel is the new golf. As a result of some of this, and other reasons, off network and off track cycling is widespread, particularly since the covid unlocking last summer. There are many reasons for this. The problem with it though is that because it is so widespread and visible the organisations that we need to help unlock wider access don’t believe that it can be done without encouraging further off track cycling. As a collective of cyclists we need to do our bit to convince them that we can do the right thing if we want to see change.
Theres also some work to be done putting things into context and reducing the noise around cycling. The papers don’t help, even the picture in the article of some 90’s Lycra’d up mtb’er stood up blasting up a muddy track doesn’t help. Something like only 5-6% of visitors here are cycling off rd. Most stick to the network or tracks that are not really causing any harm or damage. Some people are just going for a walk locally with their kids with their bike. Some people do end up in places that most of us (us on here) would probably think isn’t reasonable or sensible. This equally applies to walkers and horse riders, they also end up in places that aren’t appropriate at inappropriate times of the yr (bird nesting season etc). There is work being done to try to influence this activity as well.
The trick is to try to find ways of maintaining or enhancing the recreational offer as there huge value in people being able to use the Forest and understand its importance, get some fresh air and exercise and improve their physical and mental health. The aim is to be able to facilitate this whilst minimising the impact of people and activity all whilst improving the ecological value of what we know is a very special place.
Tough job.
Work is being done on finding a way forward on this stuff.
Take a look here
Doesn’t surprise me as it’s pretty much the capital for swivel eyed anti bike nimbys down there.
One of the worst Tory MPs (what a claim!), Desmond Swayne in seat for 20 years - check
Very high Brexit vote even though being in EU or not is even less relevant here - check
A lot of racist people even though 99.9% of people are white - check
I have lived in New Forest for 20 years and all the comments made by people above are true. However it suits my lifestyle (very peaceful in my village which is a mix of well off and very poor but we all get on well)
I actually enjoy the cycling (road and off road) but I always cycle at 08:00 so rarely see anyone so for me its is about riding a bike that makes riding the very tame off road a bit more fun/challenging.
Over the 20 years I have ridden wherever I want and have even ridden straight past forest rangers on single track I am not supposed to be riding on and we just say hello to each other so I haven't found any problems. If I do encounter anyone walking I slow down to 3mph as I know I have no rights to be riding there but I do occasionally get shouted at by people walking but they typically have a dog off the lead in an area where dogs should be on leads so that is always a good retort!
Tough job.
Not really. Just live and let live as it is not actually as big a problem as you/others make out as is always the case with these types of topics.
Verderers?
Commoners?
WTF is this nonsense?
@squirrelking I think they're talking about Game Of Thrones maybe? or Warhammer?
That thin soil and fragile heathland is being grazed to **** and then trampled to oblivion. If I was a ground-nesting bird I'd be looking for some cover, not a billiard-table covering of green if I'm lucky or else a pock-marked mess that's either boggy mud or set like concrete - either way, there'll be no grass shoots.
The few hundred people around here with "rights" are just taking the piss out of the rest of us. That's why they're disliked and ignored
Kerley. Problem is people don’t just live and let live and not everyone subscribes to rule 1. Not everyone’s as sensible as you, that includes all users.
When you’ve got somewhere as ecologically special as the new forest and such demand for use of it you have to find some balance. Look at the new housing that’s being built within striking distance of the place. We need to find a better way, we are trying to, to make sure the place is worth coming to see, riding in, in the future.
What I should have said is it’s a tough nut to crack when the views of “either side” are so far apart and laws meant to protect the forest are difficult to navigate, for mostly good reason. I think also in reality peoples views are mostly not too far apart but that doesn’t sell papers and sensationalist “news” doesn’t help us at all.
There’s a forum that we work with, the Cycle Working Group, that are representing the views of cyclists, most of us representing the statutory bodies are also keen cyclists. I think it’s time for change and the status quo just isn’t sustainable or helpful for anyone. You can feed your views in via the waterside cycle group, Christchurch cycle club, cycling uk, either woods Cyclery or cycle experience or if you’re a local cycling club that uses the Forest you can join. It’s important to make sure your voice is heard through a productive channel.
I’m a cyclist, have been riding off rd since I was a kid in the late eighties but have the task, with others of trying to sort this out and find some progress. I have to see things from both sides of the fence in my role, I have to. My work in the past has seen me get investment in trails at Moors Valley, get agreement from our landlord at puddletown forest for cycle access and meet cyclists groups there and find resources to find a long term solution. Things are different again in the new forest due to the importance of the ecological interest but I’m keen find a decent way forward that helps us all.
Not including the North in this, cos it's awesome, but my god England is a strange place!
The grazing thing is not so simple either. It might be that the verderers don’t necessarily agree with the current levels of grazing. They can’t necessarily control the amount of it due to the way the relevant new forest acts are laid out. These are acts of parliament that are law and can’t just be ignored, it sounds parochial and in many ways it is but it’s also got a legal basis. It is a fact though that a sustainable level of grazing is the thing that keeps the ecological interest in good order.
One other thing to mention is to feed your thoughts on cycling through your parish council. We’re currently working on a Local Cycling and Walking Infrastructure Plan for the Forest with the NPA and the County.
This will go to the parish councils for them to feed in their aspirations and this will add some context to discussions around future cycle access in the Forest. It’s a genuinely helpful piece of work that will set out investment in cycling infra in the forest for the next 10 yrs. PLEASE get involved through your parish council. I recently attended some parish meetings to launch this and the support from parishes was very positive and certainly didn’t reflect the “views” expressed in that article in the lym times.
Burko73- good luck sorting that out 🙂
This is my job. I’ve been writing a presentation on this very subject today.
It’s not quite as simple as it all seems.
Glad to hear a voice of sense in all the feudal ranting. Sometimes restrictions on access aren't just about "get orf moi land!" and have a genuine basis, but all sides have to show some respect and understanding.
Sounds like your job is incredibly difficult but I'd imagine very rewarding when it finally works. I've never ridden in the New Forest, sounds like there's a lot of scope to spread out cyclists by extending the legal gravel network, and control off piste stuff by stressing the ecological side - and how crap it is for riding.
Getting all sides to agree a compromise will be a nightmare though.
I’ve never ridden in the New Forest, sounds like there’s a lot of scope to spread out cyclists by extending the legal gravel network, and control off piste stuff by stressing the ecological side – and how crap it is for riding.
Would be good. I think stumbling block is that the verderers represent not the new forest but a particular interest group of the new forest but yet hold power over all of it. ITs like the Greeks with every citizen has a vote but you're not all of you are citizens, but yet it can still claim democracy.
BC should be pushing for judicial review both in the NF and Ashdown Forest.
@squirrelking I think they’re talking about Game Of Thrones maybe? or Warhammer?
Ah, that's where the issue is, I'm not big on Fantasy.
Not including the North in this, cos it’s awesome, but my god England is a strange place!
Yup.
Its a working forest that people rely upon for their livelihoods. Yeah right the other ones got bells on it. A doxen manky ponies is not paying for your Bentley running costs for a year
There are tarmac roads that you are not supposed to ride on as its verboten.
Organising drives or droves when there is a wiggle event on so panicked wild ponies come in to conflict with roadies
Arsehats of nuclear magnitude
Yep, as I said it is not really a problem to start with and blown up out of all proportion to suit certain peoples agenda's. The New Forest is full of very selfish and entitled people so not a good start for any sort of debate.
There are tarmac roads that you are not supposed to ride on as its verboten.
That's wild.
Burko73 - your efforts are appreciated, and your frustrations shared. As secretary of the club which lobbied for and obtained the limited access we have now, following the complete ban in the 80's, I know just how difficult it is to even have your voice heard.
I had brief access to the access forum some time ago - probably 10 years or so. What was evident was the commoners had set up so many organisations representing their interests no-one else got a look in.
We've been lobbying for 30 years for 2 additional existing grave tracks to be added to the network to form links to key areas but always vetoed. The agenda of kettling leisure activities into ever decreasing areas will only ever lead to conflict, and promote off-route access which just adds fuel to their fire.
Providing sustainable off-road access routes between key habitations and forest car parks would be simple - almost all on existing gravel tracks with a few established paths (matley plain for example which is a prime example of the mess the ponies and cattle make). This would reduce the likelihood of off-track cycling, reduce user conflict, keep cyclists off the roads, and using existing tracks have no impact on wildlife. I appreciate I'm preaching to the converted here.
What is particularly scary was the recent forest consultation, it wasn't difficult to read between the lines of the weighted questions to see what they were driving for was significantly reduced access to the forest - closing car parks and campsites - and creating out of forest leisure parks like Moors Valley to preserve the Forest for their own uses.
I've recently moved just out of the forest (and just in Dorset) so pursuing through my local council isn't an option now. This will apply to many forest leisure users who live on the periphery but have frequent local access. And Nimbyism will ensure the weight of voices to local councils will be anti-anything promoting access.
So I'll just discreetly continue to do my own thing, and try to keep to the enclosures where possible.
Now might be a good time todo some campaining
“ 14. The New Forest is paid on as common land under BPS and receives the highest of the three available English payment rates, that for Non - Severely Disadvantaged Areas, worth £232.84/ha for BPS 2019. Total payments in the New Forest are worth approximately £3million p.a.
15. The number of New Forest marking fees declared on applications for SPS and BPS since 2005 is shown in annex A. There has been a clear upward trend since 2012. It has been said to the RPA that some commoners may be increasing the number of animals they have marked in order to be allocated additional eligible area, which can then be combined with entitlements purchased or leased on the open market in order to obtain additional payments. “
If you want a laugh and to see some very big numbers (*difficult as you need to know farm/business name addresses etc)
https://cap-payments.defra.gov.uk/
As I understand it (*and I’m happy to be corrected) that we’re moving from CAP ELMS as part of brexshit (* my understanding, moving from getting paid by the amount of land towards being paid for “environmental good” [wtf that is].
( “In England and Wales the (so-called) single use footpath network extends to 101,000 miles this is shared by 9.1 million walkers (who also share the higher right network). Total available walking network = 138,000 miles plus walkers enjoy open and coastal access rights.
Horse riders, carriage drivers and cyclists are denied access to many open access areas which are for walkers only.
The bridleways and byways network is a mere 30,000 miles. - http://www.thetrailstrust.org.uk/pages/aboutus.php)
I’m writing to my mp To suggest that to me environmental good would mean the creation of new cycle paths and bridleways plus the conversion of some of the existing footpath network to bridleway, to increase the public acccess to something we are subsidising and I strongly suspect cold hard cash will overcome some ‘social barriers’
@Burko73 - Off topic but as you mentioned Moor Valley Country Park - Do you know what is happening to the mtb trails (and the play trail etc.) once Purple Haze kicks off and we lose a good chunk of the park to gravel extraction
Cheers @burko73 - both for the contextual info, and your involvement in (hopefully) progressing the situation
@jonm81 interested too as I now live just up the road. Gravel extraction will eat into areas of the cycle trail, although phased over 25 years in cells, so may not be for quite some time.
Frustrating that its Hampshire County Council but although I'm right next door I'm Dorset so can't lobby directly through my council.
BC should be pushing for judicial review both in the NF and Ashdown Forest.
Not really their sort of battle though is it, not if you can't trace a straight line between the topic, some lottery funding and an Olympic medal...
Cycling UK maybe?
But it's ultimately a losing battle (IMO) selling the scope for cycling (mainly opening up 'gravel' type routes?) With Some associated growth in tourism, Vs a vested interest group, already in control of the land, deriving some income from it, with well sharpened arguments, all against the backdrop of BoJo/Brexit/CV19 Britain...
Nah, let the local riders quietly use their cheeky routes with minimal challenge, those of us not native may as well stay well out of it...
You won't fix the NF until you fix England's bicycle access laws and implement a more Scottish model, which I can't see happening in my lifetime.
I salute everyone trying to manage the complexities, vested interests and legal issues for the benefit of all.
Think the best thing I can do to help is stay away, happy to oblige.
Off topic but as you mentioned Moor Valley Country Park – Do you know what is happening to the mtb trails (and the play trail etc.) once Purple Haze kicks off and we lose a good chunk of the park to gravel extraction
Didn't know about this. Personally I am not a user of about the green trail (or do they jokingly call it blue?) but the "skills area" is ok for a 30 min play if local and there is nothing else in the local area.
There has never been a well organised defined management plan for the New Forest. It's 2021 and there are no oragnised paths for children and locals never mind tourists to walk or cycle between villages safely. In times of road safety, emmisions and climate change it is by definition demonstrably unfit for purpose.
It's such a large area, and arguably actually not so wild, that the use by Forest Commission, walkers, dogs, cyclists, commoners who ever, doesn't have any appreciable affect at all. The trees grow the horses make their own paths.
The 'commoners' are a very self interested group, and always have been. That they object even to ribble sportives on the road shows how unaccommodating and unreasonable they area. I'd not like to use degrogatory comments on a public forum but the feeling is widespread.
So what to do. The New Forest is a gravel grinding nirvana. It's endless. I have my life to lead and can't wait for common sense to prevail. If you stick to gravel tracks, slow for horses and cyclists, dogs and walkers...in Charlie's words 'don't be a dick' I say cycle wherever. These days I don't ride on the Forest proper. We did 30 years ago as local kids, but you all too easily end up in bogs and it's quicker on the gravel.
If the Forestry Commision stop you (generally they won't - they just don't want you in areas of active logging) I'd quite happily stand my ground and point out tho the wholesale destruction of vast acreages with their logging. They don't replant with deciduous trees - just leave the ground scarred and broken to be covered over with fern. I've never been stopped by 'a commoner' they are never on the Forest, and I'd just be objectionable for the sake of making them hesitate to do so again then be on my way. They aren't reasonable people, so you can't reason with them. The horses prevent wild grasses and flowers growing, greatly reducing the Forest biomass and environmental diversity, plus are a huge danger to car traffic as are the horses are at great risk themselves. Remember these aren't wild horses, they are owned by the commoners, like you own your dog. If you let your dog out to roam free, you'd be responsible. These people avoid responsibility for their horses ultimate welfare or or drivers safety.
They tried to ban cycling outright a few decades ago then got into a pickle when they'd also have to ban horse riding. The local riders grabbed their pitchforks and it all had to dropped. A few cycle routes were put in, I remember mainkly at the time so they could get an ambulance to someone. It's not all bad - the FC does re gravel any potholes!
So come to the New Forest, ride solo or a two, but keep to a gravel track if not an cycle route (their are quite a few of those to be fair) keep moving, try to blend in a bit, and you'll be fine. The odd bit of 'cross country' will be necessary but keep it to minimum and no harm done. That's what locals do. If you want to see deer, look sideways not ahead, and go out at dusk around Bolderwood.
I think its all my fault.
I explored every single New Forest fireroad and animal track through the 80's/90's on my ATB resulting in the Total Ban v1 followed by the slightly less restrictive Almost Ban v2 (still in place).
I emigrated to SW Scotland after that.
Sorry.
Maybe it's just an "us and them" mentality, so we could try and appear as "them"...
Just need to get a Farage style tweed blazer, red trousers and make your bike look like a horse...
Not really their sort of battle though is it, not if you can’t trace a straight line between the topic, some lottery funding and an Olympic medal…
Cycling UK maybe?
Agree with all of that 👍
Quite like the NF, pleasant enough for a few days pootling about with the GF, some nice cafes and pubs (even if the beer is a bit shite!) We are fairly close though and always go in the off-season (& wouldn’t ever bother taking the MTB). Quite like the way it’s set up/managed as it’s quaint although appreciate would probably feel very different if I had to live there 😀
The verderers court can't survive much longer and should be ripe for judicial review as the system is inherently out with any equalities legislation, and any sitting verderers has a conflict of interest which is counter to natural justice. Repeal of the layers of legislation is only a matter of time. Will probably take a test case.
So come to the New Forest, ride solo or a two, but keep to a gravel track if not an cycle route (their are quite a few of those to be fair) keep moving, try to blend in a bit, and you’ll be fine. The odd bit of ‘cross country’ will be necessary but keep it to minimum and no harm done. That’s what locals do. If you want to see deer, look sideways not ahead, and go out at dusk around Bolderwood.
Great advice and what I have been doing for 20 years with no issues.
Blimey, some battles are not worth fighting. Id just ride cheeky and ignore the odd shout from some idiot.
i lived in lymington for a while. i liked the town, but as for the rest of the place i completely agree with you. awful, dull place full of oddballs.
I’m not going to say much more but i just wanted to try to put things into context and clear up a few things as there’s a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding of access rights and management of the Forest. There are plenty of man made gravel tracks in the forest that are pretty robust that could easily accommodate cycling. I think it’s the right time for some change and local organisations genuinely accept that. There was some really good support back from the consultations that we ran with members of the public and local stakeholders. We can’t always get everything we want as a single issue user group, access to everywhere in the uk just isn’t a realistic thing. It would be good to get some support from the rest of the cycling community as it is a great place to ride. I’m always the first person to apply rule 1 - don’t be a dick and that’s a good place to start in the interim until we can move this forward. We do need to remember that even if you ignored the verderers there are significant challenges as the whole place is very important ecologically and is legally designated as such. There is a way forward I’m sure and I’ll do everything I can to get there. I guess you can all help by getting involved with your cycling uk rep perhaps or at least if you can’t follow the network follow rule 1.
Ps not wanting to single anyone out but there’s quite a lot of fact checking needed in some of those posts about who does what, who goes where, how whatever works and what the ponies do etc! 😉
What a curious and odd situation. Up here in Scotland, we have a Government that thinks strategically about forestry through the now devolved forest bodies. There is a recognition that three strategic goals of economic, social and environmental benefit are not mutually exclusive. I had the privilege of sitting on the Board for three and a half years and can attest to Forestry being an entirely different beast to that down south. Last year, Scotland accounted for 84% of the forest planting in the UK and even in the honey pots, has proven time and again that it can cope with significant demands re access and balancing it with environmental and economic considerations.
It can be done if the will is there.
Up here in Scotland, we have a Government that thinks strategically about forestry through the now devolved forest bodies
But this is also a devolved body managing the New Forest. I'm all for more local control but this situation does show the pitfalls.
We do need to remember that even if you ignored the verderers there are significant challenges as the whole place is very important ecologically and is legally designated as such.
Yep good points burko, I've done a fair bit of ecological work in the Forest and there are challenges around the SAC, SPA and SSSI designations. But these alone aren't insurmountable and I'd hate seeing them being labelled as the blockage, it's simply the layering of challenge upon challenge.
Up here in Scotland, we have a Government that thinks strategically about forestry through the now devolved forest bodies.
And to support burko as above, that sounds super. Unless it adds complexity. The verderers are a focus on this thread, but just off the top of my head, in the NF there are key roles for Forestry England, Natural England, New Forest NPA, New Forest District Council, Hampshire County Council, Environment Agency...the list goes on. There are strategic plans - many plans, great plans, wetland management plans (Donald Trump voice applied). A Local Plan? Of course! A Site Improvement Plan? Well yes! A confusing picture of competing priorities can lead to many frustrations.
The core of the new forest is actually managed by Forestry England, England’s devolved forestry agency. They also have a strategic view based on similar goals around economy, social and environmental drivers. The access issue in the forest here is just a small blip, a local idiosyncrasy in our wider work.
FEs remit is pretty much the same as in scotland but some of the focus can be a little different depending on which part of the country you’re in. Our focus locally in the south is still producing timber but alongside significant social and environmental delivery as well which also delivers on the economy angle here in the south. The NF is at the crux of the social and environmental part of our work. Timber production here and economics takes second place (to some stakeholders disgust) and our plans are mainly all about restoration and enhancement of the designated habitats (that had been planted up as strategic reserves of timber in case of ww3 - our legal duty is to restore these designated habitats and provision of/ management of recreation so that it is sustainable. Obviously social delivery is massive here, providing 130 car parks and hosting 15.7 million day visits etc
The Verderers are a separate body completely and primarily exist to manage the rights of common as these exist in the New Forest after the forest was taken from the locals by the crown. There must be similar local community groups in scotland I’m sure. They have statutory duties under the various new forest acts. These are mainly about looking after commoning but some relate to development and looking after the aesthetics or something like that. This gives them the ability to veto some things they see as damaging or detrimental to commoning or the place. Despite what some have said earlier in this thread commoning does keep the new forest in a good place ecologically even if it doesn’t always look like that, as a lot of the really rare plants and animals depend on the mixed habitat and closely grazed areas, despite peaks and troughs in grazing (it’s currently in a peak, you can see that but it should balance out if CAP changes due to brexit). If the commoning system collapses FE need to buy a few thousand ponies or a good lawnmower.
A very good friend of mine has the same role as me in forestry and land scotland. Timber is the biggest driver up there, not the only one as you mention and again different parts of scotland will have different drivers but very subtly. His challenges are very different to mine despite us having broadly the same job. He’s got loads of space but no visitors and I’ve got loads of visitors and no space ( relatively).
Fine words butter no parsnips and traffic wardens know a huge amount about the economics of double yellow lines. The NF is massively anti-cycling and and that's clear to anyone who's been there. That isn't going to change with the current set up - plenty of public meetings and earnest discussion are about as useful as those online petitions which keep coming round with monotonous regularity. This country has had a land problem since 1066 and the only answer is non violent, non invasive trespass. Go where you want, quietly and leave no trace.
Honest question for you Burko, if you don't mind. Why do the verderers have so much sway? I always understood it that their primary focus should be the common rights (and the welfare of the animals) but they seem to be able to block so much as the article in the OP implies?
I ride regularly in the NF. I accept its a working forest and there are plantations to be worked and in some cases deciduous woodland returned so that it holds more wildlife and native trees.
My normal loop included a beautifull section through some very mature redwoods on an incline quite high up. A peacefull and beautifull location. After the loggers went in the whole hill side was cleared to a quagmire like a nuclear bomb had gone off. Utter destruction of all the habitat. Massive soil churn a hillside of brown mud and ruts just left I had to climb over never mind walk or ride. Utterly disgracefull. No attempt to level the ground. No attempt to clear debris. No attempt to replant deciduous trees, just left raped to become a useless field of fern to cove rthe scarring. No doubt 20 years time some new trees will find root but hardly proactive management. Coming accross scenes like that make the idea that a mtb is going to add any damage to the NF is completely laughable. Very little of the New Forest is actually in a natural state. Bird life is pretty absent. When horses were kept off the forest one year the grass grew and there were alot more insects and flowers.
I am generally a "stick to the rules" type person but given the attitude of the verderers and their anti bike attitudes i would completely ignore them if I lived in the area
I am generally a “stick to the rules” type person but given the attitude of the verderers and their anti bike attitudes i would completely ignore them if I lived in the area
See, the challenge here is to avoid an "everyone loses" scenario. The NF is a busy place, not just with holidaying families; it is in the back yard of parts of the south east with major growth, not least Southampton, and is at the bottom of the M3 a relatively short distance from London. Whilst the verderers and some retirees in the Forest wind other user groups up no end, you really can't argue that uncontrolled access is the solution if the valuable aspects - and there are many - are to be preserved and restored.
Not uncontrolled access. Responsible access following the scottish access code - which is actually more restrictive than many down south would believe. Basically it boils down to " don't be a dick" and applies to everyone - and these nimbies are being dicks so ignore their dickish rules
I wouldn't be digging trails or riding across heathland but just using the existing tracks no matter the archaic designation they have.
There is already unrestricted access - pretty much, anyway - to walkers, dogs off leads, horse riders, livestock and of course a small bunch of (literally and figuratively) entitled arses in their trucks, pulling shit like taking the family across the common for a picnic
I suspect that we'll never see the number of bikes that'd have to ride off-piste to add any discernible (other than briefly visible) and lasting damage in addition to what is created by the above
I'm out
For a ride 🙂
I ride the New Forest occasionally and those who know me will be aware what a shy and quitet person I am. I was riding along a gravel trail near Deer Leap, for those who know the area, when about 10-15 walkers were blocking the path by walking side by side. I cheerfully shouted 'Coming past' and they formed an almost Roman Military formation to block me.
After a 4 - 5 minute shouting and slating my very existence the head shouty man pointed at the sign behind him and said "Look, this is a bloody footpath"
The sign said footpath and cycle path.
I s****ed but no-one in the group felt that they were wrong. Bikes should die. You cannot use bike forums to convince anti-bikers. You cannot use rational debate. When tin tacks were scattered on the road in front of a sanctioned and approved cycle ride a few years back it was dismissed as 'acceptable protest'.
I don't have a solution that I am willing to put forward on a public forum.