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Daft question, but you’ve got a Soul that already does all that so why would you need the Bfe? I’ve got the same bike for exactly what you’re describing. I’ve also had a couple of 29er HT’s in the past, including a Solaris and I can’t tell any real difference in climbing, descending or anything else when compared to the Soul or the Stif Morf that I used to have.
Main difference is what mood I’ve been in or what I’ve eaten prior to riding. My fastest time on a local descent was done on a 26” wheeled Bfe back in 2012.
I’ve also had a couple of 29er HT’s in the past, including a Solaris and I can’t tell any real difference in climbing, descending or anything else when compared to the Soul or the Stif Morf that I used to have.
Really? You must be quite unobservant!
No, not really. I’m a serial swapper so have ridden lots of bikes on the same terrain over the years. I haven’t found bigger wheels to make that much difference. Nothing to do with being unobservant just my honest opinion from actual rides. YMMV. As I said how I am physically and mentally before and during a ride makes a much bigger difference to the ride. I’d say geometry, tyres, tyre pressure and suspension come before wheel size too.
I’m faster overall on the Soul than I was on a Trek Fuel Ex9 29, a Solaris, Trans AM 29, Cotic Flare and a Trek Stache. I was faster still on the Morf.
Fair point, @funkmasterp - I guess it’s the excitement of the new. A fair number of my local PRs were set on a Ti 456, but then I was a bit younger then too! I suppose what I’m really searching for is a fun bike that’s still a good all rounder. The Scout came closest to that, maybe my old BFe as well, just intrigued by what the Max version will add...
I must just be old and grumpy but modern bikes look shite to me, long and low looks rubbish, never tried one and I’m sure they are a revelation but I can’t see me putting out the cash for something that is not visually appealing. Had a mk2 Soul and it was great, changed it to a hummer and it was a looker too. Now it’s all about gravel and the occasional spin on the fat bike both look good!
Wanting a new bike is never a bad thing and the Bfe Max does look lovely. I’m sure Cotic will have a demo fleet available at some point too. If it’s nicer than the current Soul I’d be impressed as the Soul is one of the nicest hardtails I’ve ever ridden and a brilliant all rounder. Fair point on the age thing. Most of my PB’s are from around 2012 when I was riding all the time and had no kids.
I think it looks great. I ride a 27.5 Shan with 160mm Pikes. It’s just the best thing I’ve ever ridden, although I do still love my Bird Aeris for bike trips or longer days in the saddle. But the Shan gets ridden 95% of the time.
But I love the idea of being able to run 2.6 or 2.8 tyres. I think that might make the perfect HT. Having ridden (and absolutely loved) a 160mm HT, I really prefer not to drop below 150mm for my next bike.
So Cotic has just leapt into the the lead in my Version of the “I don’t need another bike” dilemma.
Nice looking frame...but if the small is advertised as 6.3lb (2.85kg), I would estimate a large at 7lb, thats a frame at 3.2kg, that's pretty portly!
I love Cotics’s ethos as a brand and the hardtails particularly look lush. I’ve owned a custard Soul and an original Roadrat. But as a xc/trail/bikepacking rider I want an all-rounder; I want to like the Solaris, but I don’t want a stupidly short seat-tube. At 5’10” I love the reach of the medium but want an 18”ish seat-tube. Cy has responded (I think on IG) to a similar comment saying test ride one, and he’s right of course. It just seems all their bikes are getting more gnarr, but I suppose that’s where the market is.
Why do you want a longer seat tube?
I’d have thought the opposite, that being safe and middle of the road would probably sell more.
They are safe and middle of the road, they wait to see where the wind is blowing! Nothing wrong with that but facts are facts.
“They are safe and middle of the road, they wait to see where the wind is blowing! Nothing wrong with that but facts are facts.”
Isn’t life simple when you always know you’re right?
Why do you want a longer seat tube?
Reasonably long legs for my height. Last bike I had with 16.5" seat-tube I had seat post over max insertion. Yes a rigid post, but I would want to swap between a rigid for bike packing and dropper for trail days. Plus longer seat-tube gives room for a slighter large frame bag.
Has anyone ever actually broken a soul or solaris by riding it too hard?
Lots of Souls with snapped chainstays if you rummage around.
Little known fact: Markus Stiz's mechanic uses a top-tube from a Soul as a breaker bar 🙂
“Reasonably long legs for my height. Last bike I had with 16.5″ seat-tube I had seat post over max insertion. Yes a rigid post, but I would want to swap between a rigid for bike packing and dropper for trail days. Plus longer seat-tube gives room for a slighter large frame bag.”
The frame bag point is a good one but you can get bags that go above the top tube to add more storage. I don’t know how long rigid posts go but you can get enormously long dropper posts - mine are 485mm long. I’m fractionally taller with long legs and that gives me about 3” more saddle height than I need on a 16.5” frame with 4” minimum insertion.
Im thinking of ordering one of these to build up with bits of my full susser to get myself back into riding.
However Im right between e large and xl sizing @ 6 foot 1
how true to size are these frames?
I know theres some of you on here that will say .... "get size blah so I can buy it off you in a few months" but I really like the look of this and want to build one up.
Thanks
Steve
I've never ridden a Cotic but they look on the big size to me, the frames are long. At 6:1ft I would be going for a large.
OK, a lot to get through here!
Interesting post, Cy. I was always one to look at “designed for 100-140mm forks” on the website and think “Ok, it needs a 140mm fork” – loved my Soul that way. Never really considered the Solaris with less.
Also – any hints re. new SolarisMax colours/tweaks?
Well that's a failure of messaging on our part! The max fork for us was always based on the max frame strength, but in most cases (particularly with the hardtails) the middle fork is what the bike is designed around. So, the SolarisMAX is designed around 120mm forks, the BFeMAX around 140mm forks etc. I prefer the SolarisMAX with 120mm forks myself, but then I have a RocketMAX for rock smashing.
I haven’t ridden a Solaris since the Gen2 but would like a go on the current or last generation, as I wonder how BOOST, thru axles etc affects the XC-ish type nature of the bike. Not sure how frame weights compare across the generations of Solaris and if the back end stiffness takes away from the ride quality? @cy
Boost doesn't really make any difference to the ride quality intrinsic to the frame. The wheels are stiffer, which is much better (IMO). The biggest difference in the newer bike is the smaller frames with stiffer down tube (for the length and 140 fork) for a given size and dropper posts do make the ride a little more 'sporty', but that's the same with any hardtail and a dropper post. They're stiffer than a rigid post, but it's worth the exchange for most riders.
I guess I’m looking for something that can replace both, that I can pedal up to the forest, which is about 35-40 mins climbing, mainly road, then usual Peak District rocky / fast kind of stuff mixed in with mucking about on loamy singletrack for a couple of hours and head home + the occasional trail centre or big day out. Something that’s as much fun as my Transition Scout was… Barking up the right tree or should I wait for the SolarisMax? Or something else entirely!
They'll both do the job great. Comes down to if you'd prefer 120 or 140 forks, and if you're concerned about an extra pound or so frame weight. And if you can afford the extra for the SolarisMAX of course. The BFeMAX geometry has longer forks in mind, so is a better climbing position with 140mm forks. That said, 120mm on a SolarisMAX is plenty for a lot of Peak riding when amplified by 29" wheels and good, wide tyres.
I love Cotics’s ethos as a brand and the hardtails particularly look lush. I’ve owned a custard Soul and an original Roadrat. But as a xc/trail/bikepacking rider I want an all-rounder; I want to like the Solaris, but I don’t want a stupidly short seat-tube. At 5’10” I love the reach of the medium but want an 18”ish seat-tube. Cy has responded (I think on IG) to a similar comment saying test ride one, and he’s right of course. It just seems all their bikes are getting more gnarr, but I suppose that’s where the market is.
It's not really about 'gnar', but the vast majority of riders want to put the longest dropper post they can on their bike, particularly shorter riders. That means minimum 150mm drop (so around 440mm) posts on smaller hardtails. That doesn't mean smaller triangles too, but then we don't really design the hardtails with bikepacking specifically in mind. They can be adapted up to a point, but for most riders the 'compromises' as you see them are benefits. I do agree that there does seem to be a bit of a gap in the market for something like a 450mm rigid post.
Im thinking of ordering one of these to build up with bits of my full susser to get myself back into riding.
However Im right between e large and xl sizing @ 6 foot 1
how true to size are these frames?
I know theres some of you on here that will say …. “get size blah so I can buy it off you in a few months” but I really like the look of this and want to build one up.
Thanks
Steve
You are on the crossover there, and you'd be happy on either. Best thing to do is email us with the size and shape of your current bike, particularly with stem length too. The numbers on the geo charts are very much straight off the drawing. There's no 'marketing' involved in those. Always remember that although the frames are long, you have to run a 35mm stem. That's way shorter than most other bikes, particularly if they're a couple of years old or more.
They are safe and middle of the road, they wait to see where the wind is blowing! Nothing wrong with that but facts are facts.
I don't know how much of a geometry geek you are, but as a (recovering) one myself - I'd put Cotic in the second wave of progressive geometry. Not the originators, but comfortably ahead of the mainstream.
As I wrote in the Solaris review I shared above, that was the first frame in years that I hadn't needed to size up to large.
Cotic moved ahead of all the big brands - and many smaller ones like Orange, Kona & Transition - on reach figures. They were also a bit ahead of the curve on chainstay length.
Giving nothing away about future Solaris colours/tweaks, eh? 🙂
Giving nothing away about future Solaris colours/tweaks, eh? 🙂
It's still called the Solaris (not renamed the Soul as a lot of people think), it's not going 'more xc', because it's rad as it is. People seem to think the next batch of Solaris and the discontinuing of the Soul are somehow related, and they're really not. We ordered the Solaris production months ago, we made the sad choice on the Soul just before the announcement.
chakaping
SubscriberWhile this is only tangentially relevant, I thought it might be useful to share a review of the SolarisMAX which I wrote the other day.
Nice review, thanks. You mentioned not needing a large, I'm right on the border between sizes M & L, what height are you?
You are on the crossover there, and you’d be happy on either. Best thing to do is email us with the size and shape of your current bike, particularly with stem length too. The numbers on the geo charts are very much straight off the drawing. There’s no ‘marketing’ involved in those. Always remember that although the frames are long, you have to run a 35mm stem. That’s way shorter than most other bikes, particularly if they’re a couple of years old or more.
Cy, email sent !
Nice review, thanks. You mentioned not needing a large, I’m right on the border between sizes M & L, what height are you?
Ta. I am 5ft 8in on a good day - shorter legs and longer torso.
I find reach is a really useful figure and I've learned that - other things being broadly equal - around 460mm works well for me for general riding, and 475ism being better for going full enduro.
So that might be a useful way to think about which way to jump. The trade off is playfulness for stability as you go longer.
Cotic may be able to give you more specific advice though.
“Always remember that although the frames are long, you have to run a 35mm stem.“
Cy, when you state that riders should use a 35mm stem, what forward offset of grips to steerer does that equate to on your personal, test or demo bikes? Either horizontally or perpendicular to the steerer. Does that make sense?
I ask because I’ve noticed that once you’re down to really short stem lengths, the backsweep of a bar becomes significant, as do the upsweep and rise. Like, for instance, if you have a 40mm rise bar and position it vertically, you’re extending the lever of the stem by ~20mm. If you position it with the rise in line with the steerer tube then you keep the lever length the same, as indeed if you had a flat bar with the same sweep figures and used 40mm of steerer spacers to raise the bar to the same height.
cy
It’s still called the Solaris (not renamed the Soul as a lot of people think), it’s not going ‘more xc’, because it’s rad as it is. People seem to think the next batch of Solaris and the discontinuing of the Soul are somehow related, and they’re really not. We ordered the Solaris production months ago, we made the sad choice on the Soul just before the announcement.
Cool... any idea when the next batch might arrive, or the colours announced?
@renton - You might want to consider going smaller for more tech stuff.
I have a long uper body so i find the new Long Low Slack bikes perfect. I got a BFe 275 in medium because i was concerned about my back being curled up/ too far forward on a small. What i did find was that the top tube was too high and lost confidence of tech stuff, so i got a gen 5.
I bought the 275 on cost over the Soul, would the Soul have been better - most definitely but i cant compare as i have never riden a Soul. Now I use the 275 as a general bike at 100mm i dont find it harsh. in fact the back end is more compliant than the trek Al bikes i had previously.
The Gen 5, I bought because of the low top tube, would a soul have been better, probably but i would have less conficence because i would worry about banging my nuts on the top tube. Being at the boundary of sizes i find the 45mm stem makes it easier to control than the 35mm as it slows the steering quite considerably.
I guess the BFe max and Solaris max are now the same as the choice between Soul and BFe of old.
“Ta. I am 5ft 8in on a good day – shorter legs and longer torso.
I find reach is a really useful figure and I’ve learned that – other things being broadly equal – around 460mm works well for me for general riding”
The leg and torso length point is the key one. I’m just under 5’11” but have long arms and legs, and find 455mm is spot on for me. But as my legs are almost 34” long I’m guessing that all the extra height vs chakaping is in my legs.
And the longer arms doesn’t seem to make a difference to reach preferences although I do think it gives you more flexibility on sizing (like I can still get my weight back on a longer bike than I like).
I guess the BFe max and Solaris max are now the same as the choice between Soul and BFe of old.
That’s how I’m seeing it too. Weren’t the Bfe and Soul the exact same geometry though, at least for the earlier iterations? Hopefully it means Cotic will sell more bikes as people who want, but can’t stretch financially to a Solaris, will pick up the new Bfe. They can then make me a gravel bike 👍🏼
The leg and torso length point is the key one. I’m just under 5’11” but have long arms and legs, and find 455mm is spot on for me. But as my legs are almost 34” long I’m guessing that all the extra height vs chakaping is in my legs.
Yep, I am 28in inside leg in most trews.
Modern geometry has been a revelation for me.
Isn’t life simple when you always know you’re right?
Nice attitude.
I'm frequently wrong but I'd be happy if you could point out where I have been on this occasion?
I don’t know how much of a geometry geek you are, but as a (recovering) one myself – I’d put Cotic in the second wave of progressive geometry. Not the originators, but comfortably ahead of the mainstream.
Not much of a geometry geek tbf and maybe I was a little harsh but my point still stands that they have designed a bike that follows current trends instead of anything groundbreaking. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, it's a sensible thing to do and I'm sure they will sell a shed load which at the end of the day is the whole point.
Cy seems like a good bloke and it's great he comes on here to discuss his bikes. Personal touches like that quiet rightly lift the brand above the faceless megacorps. I like Cotic bikes and have one on the list for my next HT but the fanboi's don't half get their knickers in a twist if anyone dares to suggest anything but blind admiration for everything they do. It's offputting tbh (see Bird also) which is a shame.
It’s still called the Solaris (not renamed the Soul as a lot of people think), it’s not going ‘more xc’, because it’s rad as it is.
Awesome. Can’t wait. Mine will be getting the lightest wide rims I can find, 120mm SID and the longest dropper I can fit. Glad to hear I don’t need to change plans!
Weren’t the Bfe and Soul the exact same geometry though, at least for the earlier iterations?
I think so - So, I should have written, I guess this is an evolution of the choice between Soul and BFe of old.
I’d put Cotic in the second wave of progressive geometry. Not the originators, but comfortably ahead of the mainstream.
Mondraker and Chris Porter were the vanguard, for sure. Cy was working on the Longshot geom a while ago though. Most of the test mules were rough and ready and stayed hidden, especially the hardtails, but this one was not:
https://singletrackmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/cotics-rocket-longshot/
“““They are safe and middle of the road, they wait to see where the wind is blowing! Nothing wrong with that but facts are facts.”
Isn’t life simple when you always know you’re right?”
“I’m frequently wrong but I’d be happy if you could point out where I have been on this occasion?””
You were wrong in that you claimed Cotic’s bikes are safe and middle of the road, when the facts are that two years ago they massively increased the reach and slackened the angles on their designs, well before 90% of brands had. Yes, the likes of Geometron and Pole got there earlier but that doesn’t make the Cotic designs middle of the road. And they were making gnarly hardtails (for the time) in 2003, again part of a small forwards-thinking minority.
I’m not some uber-fan, I don’t own any Cotics now although I had a 2010 Soul. Personally I think the bottom brackets are too high on the hardtails.
And your earlier post about bike companies just chasing the money, which I previously responded to, it’s simply not a 100% truth. If all you want to do is just make money then it’s one of the most stupid sectors to try to do it in! People have other motivations in life and some of those people own companies like Cotic.
As I said before, I am one of those people. I used to earn more working in finance, but for ten years I’ve been running a bass and guitar amp company. It’s not easy, it’s far less lucrative but it’s something I care about. If I just focused on making the business all about profit rather than about making the best possible products for the thing I love, then it would destroy the whole point of the business - and I might as well go back to selling my soul in finance for the man!
I really can't be bothered going backwards and forwards on this but my comment about middle of the road was directed at the release of the Bfe Max that has brought nothing new to the table and is following current trends. They have made it to fill a gap in their market. Great for us as it increases our options.
As for the making money part it's great that they have created a business that they clearly have a passion for and I'm sure the vast majority of people wish they could too. They make bikes to make money though, they have brought this one to market as it will sell and make money, they stopped building the Soul because it didn't sell well enough anymore to make it financially viable. It's not a criticism, it's just how it is.
Well the geom of the BFeMAX is basically the SolarisMAX, but optimised around 140mm rather than 120mm forks… so it follows on from that, not whatever else is popular right now.
Yeah well just ordered a large blue one 😁
Well the geom of the BFeMAX is basically the SolarisMAX, but optimised around 140mm rather than 120mm forks… so it follows on from that, not whatever else is popular right now.
Good grief.
Over and out.
Yeah well just ordered a large blue one 😁
Damn, i'm a medium
🤣🤣
Cy, when you state that riders should use a 35mm stem, what forward offset of grips to steerer does that equate to on your personal, test or demo bikes? Either horizontally or perpendicular to the steerer. Does that make sense?
I ask because I’ve noticed that once you’re down to really short stem lengths, the backsweep of a bar becomes significant, as do the upsweep and rise. Like, for instance, if you have a 40mm rise bar and position it vertically, you’re extending the lever of the stem by ~20mm. If you position it with the rise in line with the steerer tube then you keep the lever length the same, as indeed if you had a flat bar with the same sweep figures and used 40mm of steerer spacers to raise the bar to the same height.
You are quite right that you need to be a little more careful with bar roll with short stems, but our 35mm recommendation is based on the fact we all use either Cotic Calver bars or Burgtecs which have 8-9deg of backsweep, so nothing out of the ordinary. I did fall foul of this last summer after missing my mark when putting my bike back together after a trip and wondering why I couldn't get over the front and the steering was really light. I had the bars rolled back far enough that I effectively had a zero stem. Rolled 'em forward and again and the bike 'switched on' again. If you do like bigger sweep bars, you should defintely get a long stem though. If you put a string across where the middle of your hands go, on a Cotic the string should be 15mm or more in front of the steering axis.
It's a bit naive to call it "max" IMO.
What are they going to do if/when theres a bigger wheelsize?
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/interview-treks-travis-brown-on-experimenting-with-32-and-36-wheels.html
Max Plus? i mean that doesn't even make any sense.
Who cares?
I think the established convention is 'SuperMax' isn't it?
If you put a string across where the middle of your hands go, on a Cotic the string should be 15mm or more in front of the steering axis.
@Cy - is that for all Cotics or just Longshot?
@Cy – is that for all Cotics or just Longshot?
All of them, but mainly aimed at Longshot. I'd be amazed if you got anywhere near the 15mm measurement on a bike with a 50+mm stem fitted and relatively 'standard' shaped bars.
What are they going to do if/when theres a bigger wheelsize?
[Thinks about packaging a bigger wheelsize around the BB/chainring area. Cries a bit.]
“I’d be amazed if you got anywhere near the 15mm measurement on a bike with a 50+mm stem fitted and relatively ‘standard’ shaped bars.”
Thanks for that info Cy - I do think people/reviewers get lost in stem length discussion without considering the real leverage situation.
I measured both my bikes, which have 50mm stems and 760mm wide 40mm rise Renthal bars. My Zero AM (similar geometry to a BFe since I put in a -2 deg headset) has a 35mm grip to steerer offset; whilst my Levo (v similar geometry to a FlareMAX but obviously more weight and travel) has a 25mm offset (bars rolled back more).
Thanks Cy.
Assuming I am measuring to the correct point (steerer tube top) my Gen 5 is 25mm with spank vibrocores and a 45mm stem. My 275 is 21mm with nukeproof warhead bars and a 50mm stem.
I started with 35 mm stem on the gen 5 but felt too fast, I was forever correcting, now with the 45 I can be more accurate, a more talented rider I think would have less trouble.
No problem fellas. Glad it's helped you understand the handling side a bit more. @bsims Interesting feedback on the Gen5. We backed off the head angle on the Gen6 to calm the steering down a bit, so that keys in with what you found, but your solution works too, obviously!
Frame arrived yesterday.
It's very purdy in the blue.
How do I post pics on here again ?
Postimage.org
Oi Renton, Pics
Hi Everyone, are you measuring centre of steerer to centre of bars, middle of grips to get the 15mm plus?
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Its a very nice colour and the frame details are great, gussets look good and there is a load of tyre room at the back. Plan is to build it up over the next week when parts come in.
Not sure if the head tube badge is in the middle looking at that photo !!
Nice. Really interested in how it rides. Am sort of waiting for new Solaris colours, but the BFe might really be the bike I need.
Build started
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Great review for the BFE MAX
Sedona dreaming…
I just love the Hardtail Party YouTube channel.
That’s a great review in all ways and he’s a bloody good rider!
Anyone know the frame weight for a large ?
I found the Hardtail Party through his missus channel (Dusty Betty) when I was looking to buy my DV9.
I really like his reviews and videos and the Cotic one was a very positive review.
I've got a Middlechild Ti thanks to Steve. great info and reviews.
I wanted a Banshee Paradox V3 after his review but can't get them anywhere now 🙁
What a great review and yes, what a ride - I would have stalled on a lot of those rocky efforts up the climb.
Not a comparison of the bikes, but a lot of his words are how I'd describe my clockwork Evo (2019) which is LLS and a little burly. I've never been 100% with a hardtail until I bought this bike. Maybe it just suits me but solid, stable, rides lighter than it appears, good to climb and wants to accelerate down with confidence apply to my bike as well. Mine has shorter chain stays at 225mm, but I wonder if its the LLS Geo? I don't know the other bikes he refers to, are they also LLS?
Here's mine in mercury. Yellow grips for extra wheels on the ground sending.
That video reinforced my view that I must go ride in Sedona... although hopefully there’s a few easier bits!
I’d love to know if the reviewer has ever ridden a Solaris Max... Am sure it would be enough bike for me and can’t help but think it must out-climb the BFE Max?
marksnook
Subscriber
Just mentioned this to the wife and she didn’t seem as happy as me on the idea! I’ve got a spare set of brakes didn’t win her over! My hardtail itch just won’t go away!
Hmm, in the same boat... If they did the black with stealthy graphics, I could possibly get away with "what do you mean it's not a new bike?" She's never that interested, unless she notices something different... No I'm doing her a disservice..
It does look good though.. Must not buy, must not buy...
If you keep a steady stream of frames coming in and out all the time they lose interest very quickly. 🙂
How are people getting on with their BFeMax's?
I hovered over the order button for too long and will now have to wait until December but as they sold out so quickly I figured there must be a few folk on here who got their hands on one.
(Also hello from a long term lurker first time poster)
@mrWhippy - worth giving them a call, they have had some hassle with folks ordering but not paying. sp a handful were relisted, I nabbed one with help from kelvin on here. Might still be a chance.
None available, sorry.
kelvin
None available, sorry.
Ah well.
I was going to send an email to find out when the restock was due, is it definitely December then?
Ah, not to worry. Thanks for the suggestion though. I'll keep a beady eye on the site to see if any get listed again if not it'll be a Christmas pressie.