[Closed] New bike prices

How many bikes do Pivot make a year?

How many do Suzuki make?

I forget where now, but I remember seeing a stat where on of the big MC makers was making 3 times the profit of Specialized, in the 100s of millions.

There's always the argument that a 15k carbon Pivot with live valve suspension is the absolute top end of race bikes. But it's hard not to argue something similar for the Hayabusa, in terms of it being top end.

You can buy an MTB for £400 or you can buy an MTB for £15k. They are both MTBs.

If you are going to compare an MTB to a motorbike, car or whatever then at least pick more equivalent examples.
A £400 mass produced MTB is same level as a Dacia Sandero which is £8K. Not really the same price are they...

4 GCN presenters out on a ride is considerable more expensive than driving 😉

But it’s hard not to argue something similar for the Hayabusa, in terms of it being top end.

I dont know. I would expect that Pivot to be pretty much pro grade whereas if you want a pro grade gp motorbike it would be rather more expensive than the one you can buy off the shelf.

For me, it's the depreciation from your £15k outlay that hurts the most.

Technology is moving so quickly at the moment that in 5-10 years, your £15k bike with mega-super-plus-boost spacing may well be obsolete from a technology standpoint, significantly reducing the 'value'.

Obviously this isn't a problem if you'll be keeping the bike long-term/forever, but how many of us actually do that with high end race bikes?

I also know there is a lot of technology and R&D that goes into a bike but compare the Pivot price list

A lot of technology? LOL, its a pedal bike, it doesn't have to pass crash, emissions and the durability testing is pathetic in comparison (see the latest enduro and the number of cracked headtubes, plus the rear tension rods snapping).

People arn't dropping 10k on a new bike, its £200 a month. Lots of 0% credit about, so the bike companies take advantage and tear the ass out of it.

If they want to charge high prices, I'd be expecting a gold plated warranty and support package.

Aren’t the 15k models just meant to draw you in then buy the mid range model , how many s-works stumpjumpers are sold compared to the mid range standard stumpjumper for example .

I don’t think it’s an issue as such , as long as companies like bird , privateer , YT exist although I think it was Ben from bird made a point on here last time this was discussed about how it could put off new riders , if someone thinking of getting their first mtb looks online and sees 15k bikes they get put off as they think their 3k budget will only get them something rubbish .

Obviously this isn’t a problem if you’ll be keeping the bike long-term/forever, but how many of us actually do that with high end race bikes?

You only have to look at race bikes from 10 years ago. Would you want to compete* on that? Seriously uncompetitive and downright dangerous in some cases.

*I think a 2011 DH bike would be fun to ride recrationally in the alps.

SirHC

(see the latest enduro and the number of cracked headtubes, plus the rear tension rods snapping).

I was browsing yesterday, and noticed that the Enduro has a 109kg weight limit for rider + gear

But haven't motorbikes almost doubled in price in the last 15 years, everything is getting more expensive and not always in line with inflation.

I thought bikes were expensive but go look at fancy coffee machines, that seems silly to me

i think its all part of perception too. We love bikes and whilst £10-15k is a lot of money for a pedal bike, it almost feels achievable for someone with a bit of disposable income, whether that be by finance or blowing your savings.

So even tho it is 'almost' atainable, it feels a bit unfair and/or crazy to think a bike can cost more than a car/motorbike/boat/caravan etc.

But if we apply the same apples to apples in other areas of life... i like cars, i have a very modest Golf R, which wasnt Dacia cheap, but its a far cry from a Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo and beyond. But i feel no disappointment or jealousy towards more expensive cars or the manufacturers for releasing cars that cost many times the cost of my Golf. Yet with MTB brands, i feel a bit put out that i cant afford or am not willing to spend that much on a Pivot/Yeti/Whatever.... Not that it keeps me up at night!

If that makes any sort of sense?!

prices are either through the roof or the spec is pish for the cash.

It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better, shipping prices are insane ATM, not a huge deal for £15K super bikes but a very big deal for any bulky stuff at the cheaper end of the scale, bikes, wheels, frames etc that has to come from the Far East.

An equivalent level MX / SX bike would be in the region of $80k according to the official Supercross site.

As said above the amount you will lose on the MTB compared to the Motorbike is scary.KTM 200cc Enduro bike in 2005 was £4300 the 2022 150cc is £8500 a lot has changed on the two in that time you buy a Beta alp 200cc it is only £300 more than 2008 but the bike is the same different colour scheme.

To be honest I have been so happy with my Ibis Mojo HD4 abs hadn’t ridden so much in the last 18 months that I hadn’t kept track of bike pricing.  But now I’m starting to consider changing my bike (it’s coming up 3 years old) I was blown away by the pricing…yes I get global pandemic, brexit, blow up in participation.  But even so!  I guess the flip side is my bike is probably worth ‘more’ second hand? I have been looking at Ebikes lately and most are either sold out, mad money or terrible spec…who the hell buys a £6k bike with rock shox 35’s on?

Anyway, I got my eye on the virus ebike now.  I fancied a Trek Rail, but I’m not paying £6500 when I can get a similar spec bike for £4500.

15K would get you a pretty trick Enduro motorbike.

9.5K for say a new KTM 350EXC-F or a Husky FE350

Then £5.5K for a pipe, remap/ECU and some really nice suspension. Might even have enough for some fancy wheels.

This comes up a lot.

Basically my sense is that bikes are basically a fashion good, wherein exclusivity is for some people part of the attraction.

Another background issue is flat wages for middle class people combined with inflation and high inequality.

I'm a fairly senior teacher and our wages have had about a 20% real terms cut since 2010. Promotion has helped me a bit, but I'd be on at least 10k more if public sector wages had kept track with inflation / we hadn't been stuffed on pensions.

I don't know why, but something seems wrong when a high end bicycle costs more than someone's entire annual salary if they are on minimum wage.

15k bikes help normalise 7 and 8k bikes which would have been the upper limit a few years ago but now look like good VFM compared to the full factory version.

What's interesting about the pricing of an mtb vs an m/c, or a car, for that matter, is that the bulk of the wholesale cost of most mtb's is determined by the price of third party components, which by and large are also available on the open market. Effectively, the manufacturer supplies a frame, then hangs bought in stuff off of it.

It's why we have so many brands, can't afford a pivot, there's a lot of companies doing similar for a lot less, you want a DW link, then a Ripmo AF can be had for 3.2k, you can pick up a giant reign with similar suspension for 4k as well.

There are many sub-markets within the market, some can put down 15k on a bike without much worry, others have to save for a long time to get a 1k bike, same with everything, we see lots of threads about expensive stuff, such as VW campers or ford vans, 40-50k on one of those is madness to me, but sensible to others, because we have different priorities, hobbies and usage.

Like others have said, you are comparing top end mountain bikes with run of the mill motorbikes, even a hayabusa is fairly middle of the road(ish) albeit a very fast road.

That 15k for a top end pivot, is like the Ducati 1299 Panigale R Final Edition of the mountain bike world, that Ducati comes in a smidge under £35k.

“ I don’t know why, but something seems wrong when a high end bicycle costs more than someone’s entire annual salary if they are on minimum wage.”

Did you know that some cars cost more than a house? And that’s in a world where house prices have risen far faster than salaries.

Pivot bikes have always been amongst the most expensive. Cheaper bikes are available.

This sport/hobby is the new golf. £15k wonder bikes to make a basic spec £7k look normal. **** off.

I'd rather stick a pair of £100boots on my feet and walk over the hills instead.

In the 90s people used to spend £5k on a tricked-out Pace or GT Zaskar so nothings really changed.

Spinergy wheels didn't come cheap! 🙂

All I know is that I'm not in the market for a new MTB but I am doing motorbike lessons and trying to decide what I want as a first bike.

I know there are complex economics involved and they aren't directly comparable but my stupid monkey brain sees mid-range Specialized for £7400 which will be wrecked in a year and a Yamaha WR250f, brand new on the road for £7700. I don't care about the difference in the manufacturers margins I want the best ride for the money.

The rocketing price of MTB's and e-bikes is making all kind of used Triumph's and Ducati Scramblers etc. look like a relative bargain.

RustyNissanPrairie
Full Member
This sport/hobby is the new golf. £15k wonder bikes to make a basic spec £7k look normal. **** off.

I’d rather stick a pair of £100boots on my feet and walk over the hills instead.

Posted 3 minutes ago

You'd have to go that extra bit to spend more than 2k on a set of clubs, 2.5k with the extra kit, golf is relatively cheap in comparison to bikes, as for membership costs, probably the same i spend on fuel, passes, etc in a year for biking!

I do miss golf though :o(

as for membership costs, probably the same i spend on fuel, passes, etc in a year for biking!

based on my friends who golf... you can either do it cheap, become a member of a local reasonable course, which I guess is the equivalent of the "I only ride from my back door" demographic.

Or, you can travel the country (or globe) on your weekends or holidays, seeking out the best (or most interesting for your ability, not necessarily world class difficulty) courses, sometimes paying paying hundreds a round. You can also enter tournaments you have no chance of winning, just to get to ride with/against some different people. If you are spending a noticable amount on fuel, and buying passes and race entries, you are probably more this demographic.

The big question I have is what happens to these bikes when the orginal owners what to sell them? Do they take a massive bath?

Ignoring the £15k bikes for a minute and focussing on the £8k variety, which are not exactly uncommon. I'm assuming that when bought new it's being put on credit. If the orginal owner wants to sell it 18 months later for (say) £5.5k, who's going to be dropping that sort of cash-money on a second hand bike with no warranty?

If the orginal owner wants to sell it 18 months later for (say) £5.5k, who’s going to be dropping that sort of cash-money on a second hand bike with no warranty?

A quick look on eBay shows a fair few sold recently for £4k+.

Talking of golf.... of course, at the high end it can be VERY expensive.I caddied for a while when I retired at Queenwood in Surrey. Reported joining fee is in excess of £200,000.

Lots of pros are members and lots of "names".

The warranty point is also a complete joke.  I have never understood how manufacturers can hide behind the ‘first owner’ for blatant manufacturing faults. Even more so now bike prices are exploding.  It’s why Specialized and other who have embraced the fact that with high end price tags comes the need for proper residual and used market..so offer a form of transferable warranty. As such used prices stay high and folk who like the latest colours can change every year…thus driving the new bike market!

I will be buying a new bike this side of a Christmas, it will likely be a budget blowing amount of money.  Perhaps I expect too much, the perils of direct sales mean local shops stocking a range of what I’m after are non existent.  Demo days…I have tried but demoing a bike is hard work now…. I’m actually worn out thinking about the whole process 😂

Reported joining fee is in excess of £200,000.

Lots of pros are members and lots of “names”.

and therin lies the difference.

I had Luca Shaw behind me in the lift queue last year in morzine, got to spend the ride up examining the underside of a V10. Cost of entry ~120 for a week of lift passes.

based on my friends who golf… you can either do it cheap, become a member of a local reasonable course, which I guess is the equivalent of the “I only ride from my back door” demographic.

You can do most things cheap, and I tend to do that!
I used to play golf with a set of second hand clubs that cost me £60. I played on cheap courses and I enjoyed myself. At no time was my crap playing down to the cheap clubs
I have cycled a lot over the 20 years and never had a bike that cost more than £1,000 and currently my only bike is worth about £300. Again, at no time is my slowness down to the cheap bike.

Reported joining fee is in excess of £200,000.

That's a chuffing HOUSE! The fact that people can afford that to join a club where they smack a ball about when many of their staff can't afford to rent a flat is just plain wrong

I got talking to an American guy about 15 years ago who had a boutique bike company - frames welded in the Czech republic by his partner. He was charging about $1000 for a hardtail frame. He reckoned that Giant could produce an aluminium frame for about $50 because of their economy of scale. That wasn't his market, profit margins are very slim on low-end stuff so he targeted the high-end where he could make money from a low sales volume.

The same goes with components. Shimano can churn out Tourney groupsets for a fraction of the price of a Deore, let alone XTR. So, you can buy a cheap commuter bike that's made in Viet Nam or China and will get you round town, but it'll be heavy and slow. Any component you look at could be improved, but it'll require more expensive materials and manufacturing technology, and improving a single component won't make much difference so you have to upgrade every single part to see much improvement. There is no end to this process, there is always some new material or technology that will make a tiny difference if you are willing to pay for it. A Giant Talon with Judy forks is listed at £729, that's actually a pretty decent bike. For £1,999, you can get a Stance 29 1, which is plenty good enough for what most people do. If you set an F1 engineering team to develop an MTB from scratch with no compromise due to cost, you'd end up with a bike costing six figures.

So, yes, there are still modestly priced, decent bikes if you ignore the flashy stuff at the top end of the range.

In the 90s people used to spend £5k on a tricked-out Pace

are you sure? My bespoke spec RC200F3 was more like £1,600 and though it wasn’t all American exotica like Ringle, Cooks and Grafton I think you’d struggle to have spent an extra £3.4k without gold plating it

In the 90s people used to spend £5k on a tricked-out Pace

are you sure?

I remember in the mid to late night 90s a Cannondale Super-V DH was £3k. The media were so dumbfounded by this that it was “news” when Bill Gates bought one.

PACE were not £5k, from what I remember they were approx £2-3k max

It’s wrong that I used to routinely buy XT equipped bikes, nice wheels and frames etc I would be looking at £1.5- £2k max

My relative earnings are considerably more now, yet Deore bikes avg suspension/ wheels etc will cost £3.5k

I blame the golfers who all took up biking and are prepared to spend stupid money

The big question I have is what happens to these bikes when the orginal owners what to sell them? Do they take a massive bath?

I think this is what makes them really expensive. When it comes to these kind of purchases you have to look at how much you spend per year. If you buy a 15K bike and ride it for 30 years then the prices is really just 0.5K per year plus consumables and any replacement parts you might need.

The problem is, given the constant change in standards, will you even be able to get replacement parts in 10 years?

As an example, my Mk1 SC Nomad was 4K new. It should be able to keep going for a long time but the problem is it takes 1 1/8" forks. There are no forks around now with 160mm travel and a 1 1/8" headtube. Once my current fork packs in the frame is essentially useless unless I want to try my luck with the 2nd hand market and I have no interest in hunting down 10 year old forks that still work.

Often when I tell people I ride a 2007 bike they say, 'Oh, it's a retro bike. What do you expect?' If I ride a retro bike then does that mean my Mk2 Skoda Fabia is a vintage car?

I don't think 15K is an unreasonable amount to spend on a bike if this is going to be your bike for the rest of your mountain biking life. However, there is absolutely no guarantee you're not going to be left with a useless lump of carbon in 10 years time.

I bought a full bling spec orange mrxc (IE the first orange 5), straight xtr, carbon forks, etc.. in 1999. It was under £3k (just). Don't think you could have spent more.

Mid range bikes don't cost any more, but the top end is a lot toppier.

@brucewee I've got a set of old marzocchi forks that fit that description. Stanchions are perfect but I seem to remember they leak a tiny bit of oil out of the damper side after i did a shim stack. Yours for a pittance if you're in the south east (even just for spares)

I don’t know why, but something seems wrong when a high end bicycle costs more than someone’s entire annual salary if they are on minimum wage.

Best you don't look up the prices of watches...

Thanks 5lab but I'm in Norway so not really practical.

I've decided that once these forks go I'm hanging it on the wall (or I'm going to put 200mm dual crown forks on and pretend it's a DH bike).

I've decided to take matters into my own hands and start making my own frames out of plywood from now on. Take that bike industry!

Does anyone who is moaning about this:

A: Work in manufacturing
B: Work in import/export

?

I do both. It’s not the top-end pricing that bothers me because that happens in every single market sector - there’s always crazy expensive options if you look hard enough. But costs are going through the roof so affordable stuff will have to get more expensive (and it already has).

And I can’t see it getting any better as climate change screws up more and more things.

I remember in the mid to late night 90s a Cannondale Super-V DH was £3k. The media were so dumbfounded by this that it was “news” when Bill Gates bought one.

Fairly sure these were 4k. I remember because as a spotty teenager there was one in Hardisty cycles and it was burned into my brain as 'the most expensive bike I've ever seen'.

It was just like this...

I wouldn't thank you for one these days.

Once my current fork packs in the frame is essentially useless

RSF suspension can replace the tapered steerer of a new fork with a straight 11/8” one, I think.

But costs are going through the roof so affordable stuff will have to get more expensive (and it already has).

And I can’t see it getting any better as climate change screws up more and more things.

I think in a weird way this could be a good thing.

If the price of new bikes goes up then the pressure from consumers for parts to repair their older mountain bikes might force manufactures to provide parts (of course, those parts will be more expensive but hey ho).

Like I said, what makes mountain bikes so expensive is that they are essentially throw away items once the standards move on. Hopefully manufacturers will start to take maintenance and repair-ability more seriously going forward.

RSF suspension can replace the tapered steerer of a new fork with a straight 11/8” one, I think.

That's interesting. So I could get a new fork and replace the 1 1/8"- 1.5" with a straight steerer?

I mean, I will still bitch and moan about having to replace my 20mm hub with a 15mm hub but it sounds alright.

Depending on the price, of course.

A bike only becomes a "throw away item" if and when more modern bikes are noticeably improved, and/or a major part dies on it which costs so much to replace that the "might as well get a whole bike" factor kicks in.

A bike only becomes a “throw away item” if and when more modern bikes are noticeably improved, and/or a major part dies on it which costs so much to replace that the “might as well get a whole bike” factor kicks in.

I don't buy the noticeably improved performance thing, tbh. Full suspension bikes made since the mid-00s are still fine from a performance point of view (by that I mean there haven't really been any massive step changes since they figured out how to make 160mm travel bikes pedal up hill).

The question is, if I by a bike today, how long is it likely to be before a key part becomes obsolete.

This is a problem that seems to be unique to bikes or at least nothing else springs to mind.

You can buy an MTB for £400 or you can buy an MTB for £15k. They are both MTBs.

This

I managed to get out on the bike yesterday, 17 miles and the bike cost me 700 quid. Would I have been better off with a 10k "enduro weapon" - no, but it's all just the right tools for the job and how much you're willing to spend. The companies must have a market for 10k bikes or they wouldn't make them. Does seem a bit daft to pay that much if you're a weekend cyclist only going to bike parks, but that's just me.

You can pay 700 quid for a motorbike and it might not be a brand new Ducati but you'll probably have the same amount of fun.

The only time i've thrown bike parts away are due to breakages or wear, but i still keep them and try and reuse them, such as the XT mech i snapped in half off a rock, i've stripped it down, have the cage, jockey wheels, clutch and several other parts, same with cassettes and so on, repurpose them now and again. Only frame i threw away was a steel one that got wrecked, was a custom one as well :o(

I've just replaced my Santa Cruz TallBoy 2 with a new bike. I originally bought a TallBoy 1 in 2010, which got warrantied with a V2 and I rode this bike till this year. There is nothing on that bike I can't replace, supply issues aside.

Yes I can't buy a brand new set of wheels off the shelf due to the frame being 142 rather than 148 boost, but I have DT240 hubs on there which are still running perfectly fine 12000km later. I was running SRAM 12 speed on that bike with no issues. The standards movement only matter if you have to have the latest and greatest.

I decided that the more modern bikes have moved enough in terms of geometry and design to justify an upgrade, and see my new bike being used for a long time too. I don't foresee any issues with parts or major standards change for long enough that it is irrelevant.

On prices, you can see all the millionaire company owners of bike brands driving Ferraris or Lamborghinis from the thousands in profit they make from each bike? The economics of this is more complicated that.

The question is, if I by a bike today, how long is it likely to be before a key part becomes obsolete.

What do you mean by obsolete? Everything will be replaceable and/or reparable for at least 10 years, more likely 20 plus. There will be new stuff coming along as well, which might not fit your old bike... frustrating, but not something that puts your bike out of use.

I decided that the more modern bikes have moved enough in terms of geometry and design to justify an upgrade,

Although before those geometry and design changes you were happy on the bike you had. Unless you are racing other people with the most modern bikes (as a career and need to be competetive) then why not just ride/repair/maintain an existing bike.

The standards movement only matter if you have to have the latest and greatest.

No, the standards movement only matters if a key part breaks and no replacements are available (or are so expensive it makes more sense to just buy an entirely new bike).

“ I don’t buy the noticeably improved performance thing, tbh.”

Why does it feel like this is the opinion of someone who hasn’t ridden any recent bikes?

I’d rather ride a 29” hardtail with modern geometry and a good fork on anything from long XC rides to steep rough difficult descents than your old full-sus.

Why does it feel like this is the opinion of someone who hasn’t ridden any recent bikes?

+1

Or doesn't ride the trails I do.

What do you mean by obsolete?

Like my Mk1 Nomad.

It does look as though I can buy a modern fork and replace the steerer but the question is will it be worth it?

I'll have to buy a new fork and pay half the price of the fork again replace the steerer (and almost certainly void any warranty in the process).

I'll also have to buy a new hub. I could get away with sticking with 26" rims, I guess, but with tyre availability it might make more sense to just change rims and tyres as well.

Very quickly it becomes uneconomical to replace even doing the work yourself. If you rely on a bike shop then it doesn't take much for it to make more sense to just buy a new bike.

What happens if I do all that and suddenly one of the 102 bearing seats in the frame has been damaged?

On that subject, I think Starling makes frames that, to me at least, are designed to last for at least 20 years. If you look at how the suspension is designed with BMX parts for the pivots it seems like Joe put a lot of thought into making a system that will be economical to repair for as long as possible.

He is one of the few manufacturers that seems to have put much thought into the fact that people will still want to ride his bikes in 20 years.

I’d rather ride a 29” hardtail with modern geometry and a good fork on anything from long XC rides to steep rough difficult descents than your old full-sus.

So would I.

However, I'd also like to avoid doing my part to destroy the planet so if it's OK with you I'll keep riding my 'old' full-sus for as long as possible before I buy an new 29er to improve my strava time by 3%.

On my old full-sus I've ridden Fort William DH course and I've taken it on all day epics. Believe me, it's good enough.

Incidentally, my girlfriend's bike is a 2018 Giant Trance. I ride that whenever I get the chance. Maybe there has been a quantum leap in geometry since then, I don't know.

Or doesn’t ride the trails I do.

I keep forgetting that STW is the home of epic trail shredders. I need to be mindful of the sheer technicality of the trails you guys ride and how if you tried to ride them on anything built earlier than 2018 the bike would literally explode.

“ However, I’d also like to avoid doing my part to destroy the planet so if it’s OK with you I’ll keep riding my ‘old’ full-sus for as long as possible before I buy an new 29er to improve my strava time by 3%.”

This is an entirely different discussion. But the reality is that you can get a steel hardtail now that will last longer and have less impact on the environment over its lifespan than a carbon full-sus from a decade ago, cost less and be just as capable.

But obviously you can’t moan about that.

It all just boils down to consumerism and having to have the shiny new thing as it is so much better and your life will be ruined without it.
As I said, if the newly developed bike with different geometry never existed you would still be happily riding your old bike, so why not just ride the old bike and be happy with it?

This is an entirely different discussion. But the reality is that you can get a steel hardtail now that will last longer and have less impact on the environment over its lifespan than a carbon full-sus from a decade ago, cost less and be just as capable

Sure you can, but you can also get a 15K carbon full suspension that is going to be landfill in a decade because it wasn't designed with longevity in mind.

Like I said, Starling seem to be making frames with a view to long term serviceability. I don't see many other manufacturers doing that and to me that is what makes these frames expensive. It's not the up front price you pay but how long it is going to last.

It all just boils down to consumerism and having to have the shiny new thing as it is so much better and your life will be ruined without it.

This is what I find crazy. There are people here telling me, 'Oh, you couldn't ride the trails I ride on your "old" full suspension bike.'

I think people have a truly warped view of just how much gnar they are actually shredding.

I don’t buy the noticeably improved performance thing, tbh. Full suspension bikes made since the mid-00s are still fine from a performance point of view

I bought a bike of this vintage for a 'fun race' we did as a group. It was originally a £2k FS Trek. Its fair to say compared to a modern bike, its an absolute POS.

Was this topic not covered by Pinkbike recently? I though relatively bikes arn't any more expensive than they have been?

I bought a bike of this vintage for a ‘fun race’ we did as a group. It was originally a £2k FS Trek. Its fair to say compared to a modern bike, its an absolute POS.

You mean the charity shop bike you bought with original shock, fork, drivetrain, unbled brakes, 650mm handlebars, 100 mm stem, no dropper post, and age hardened tyres didn't perform well compared to a brand new bike?

Shocker.

RSF suspension can replace the tapered steerer of a new fork with a straight 11/8” one, I think.

That’s interesting. So I could get a new fork and replace the 1 1/8″- 1.5″ with a straight steerer?

I mean, I will still bitch and moan about having to replace my 20mm hub with a 15mm hub but it sounds alright.

Depending on the price, of course.

Yes Dave does that! Its a 1 man band (atm) though. Not sure on price either, but a fair few photos of him doing it on his FB page.

“ This is what I find crazy. There are people here telling me, ‘Oh, you couldn’t ride the trails I ride on your “old” full suspension bike.’”

I haven’t seen anyone saying that - it just sounds like your inner paranoia speaking. Modern bikes are easier to ride down (and often up) more technical trails, especially if you want to go faster. Doesn’t mean you can’t ride them on older bikes.

I’ve recently been coming to the conclusion that new bikes are almost too fast downhill for my meagre skill so maybe I’m safer on a gnarly hardtail whose lack of rear suspension makes it go slower but feel faster, paired with geometry that doesn’t try to throw you over the bars when you make a slight mistake.

I haven’t seen anyone saying that – it just sounds like your inner paranoia speaking.

Really? Read intheborders post immediately below yours.

+1

Or doesn’t ride the trails I do.

So sure, possibly hyperbole on my part to say people are telling me I can't ride the trails they do but the implication is certainly that if I rode the gnarly stuff he did I wouldn't be saying a Mk1 Nomad was good enough.

I think that's just someone who hasn't ridden a maintained and updated* mid-00s bike.

*On mine I'm on to my third shock and 2nd set of forks (3rd if you count the forks that are now on my Dialled Alpine). I replaced the 680mm bars and 100mm stem with 760mm bars and 50mm stem. Running a 1x drivetrain. The brakes are original but I've stripped the caliper down a few times so they feel like new.

My dad used to run his own car tuning business. He told me people thought he was doing performance tuning whereas he said that all he was doing getting the performance back to what it was when the car left the factory.

Absolutely, modern bikes are easier to ride. However, I think the step change in mountain biking came with the Nomad and other long travel bikes that could be ridden up hill. I also believe people who think the performance difference is night and day just haven't ridden well maintained bikes from that period.

"So sure, possibly hyperbole on my part to say people are telling me I can’t ride the trails they do but the implication is certainly that if I rode the gnarly stuff he did I wouldn’t be saying a Mk1 Nomad was good enough."

Is he saying that? Or is he saying that he feels comfier on a more modern bike on the more gnarly trails he rides?

I've had some bad crashes in the past, two of which have caused permanent physical dysfunction and one of which almost paralysed me from the neck down. In light of how badly wrong things can go when mountain biking, I'd prefer to ride a bike which gives me a greater margin of error and is less likely to send me over the bars when I make a mistake or the trail throws up a surprise. My hardtail is coming round to six years old so it's not exactly brand new (and has old-fangled non-boost hubs)

"However, I think the step change in mountain biking came with the Nomad and other long travel bikes that could be ridden up hill. I also believe people who think the performance difference is night and day just haven’t ridden well maintained bikes from that period."

I don't think there's been one single step change but I do agree that the companies that worked out how to use anti-squat to good effect whilst also getting leverage rates correct transformed longer travel bikes into much more versatile machines. Wasn't the original Nomad designed to take on pretty gnarly riding and hence had fairly progressive geometry? How would a more typical trail bike from then compare to now?

How would a more typical trail bike from then compare to now?

It would be near twice the price...

Wasn’t the original Nomad designed to take on pretty gnarly riding and hence had fairly progressive geometry? How would a more typical trail bike from then compare to now?

I really don't know about more 'typical' trail bikes from that period but that's why I consider the Nomad and others like it to be a step change in mountain biking.

To me the change was having a bike that could handle Fort William and do epic cross country rides as well. Prior to that having the same bike for both would have seemed impossible/highly inadvisable.

https://www.feedthehabit.com/mountain-biking/best-all-mountain-mountain-bikes-for-2005/

I got curious about what other bikes would have been in this class and found this round up (I forgot that 160mm trail bikes were called all-mountain bikes back in 2005).

Of course, none of these bikes would have been considered cheap or even moderately priced.

Edit: found this thread from a few years ago:

https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/mid-noughties-all-mountain-bikes-cheer-me-up-with-your-stories-of-excess/

I think this quote sums up this period and this class of bike pretty well.

It was easy to get wrong, and cost a lot to get right.

Just had a look at some pricing and it seems a XTR equipped Orange 5 has more than doubled in price since 2009.

http://archive.orangebikes.co.uk/bike/2009/five_se/

https://www.orangebikes.com/bikes/five-evo-xtr/2021

Prices seemed to stay reasonably sensible up until around Brexit but then shot up and have continued to climb. I'm sure there are a whole bunch of reasons.

Slick snd slide in Macclesfield did a steerer swap for me a few weeks ago it was about £130. That was a straight swop not for a different size

In that list of best bikes from 2005, I had the Specialized S-Works Enduro.
Full XTR and other top notch components, cost £3600.

While it was totally capable of up/down it was also too tall and too short. The frame got sold a couple of years later - replaced, by an original 456Ti (which I've still got).

Just had a look at some pricing and it seems a XTR equipped Orange 5 has more than doubled in price since 2009.

in 2008* (when all the stuff was ordered) it was nearly 2 USD (which every overseas component, and the raw materials of the frame will be priced in) to the pound, compared to 1.30something now.
11 years of a few percent annual inflation also comes to 35 to 40% increase.

Combine those 2 things, and add a dropper post, and you are pretty much doubling the price

*2009 was the big drop, to roughly todays levels. did everyone complain about price hikes a decade ago?