[Closed] New bike mess - advice appreciated

Hardtails are only ridden by UK weirdos with beards and XC racers.

have you ridden it? if so how can you take it back?

They bizarrely allow an exchange within 7 days, presuming there isnt significant damage.

As for T129 being only viable alternative as I see it - the shop only stock Whyte and Orange. Orange 5's are massively overpriced and the Whyte G150 seems way overbiked for general trail use, or is that a realistic option? Budget is £2.5k...

Me thinks you may be overthinking this, and if I may be so bold, in a way that i tend to if ive committed more cash to something than im comfortable with. You bought after a test ride, you bought the one you liked best. You need not consider anything further, if its right for you its right. If it helps, (IMO) I think 29er HTs are so good at what they do that I'd question the need for FS. Not something I'd be so quick to say about 26ers.

If you want a FS bike then take the HT back and get one, or you are always going to be thinking "what if". Don't they have any other makes you could go for in a FS?

Cube and Ghost are both very well specced for the money, and Kona make some nice lower end FS bikes in 27.5".

There are no really bad bikes in the £2-3,000 category.

As for my own experience, l started back mountain biking last year with a Cube HT. I replaced it after a few months with a Kona FS and have never looked back tbh.

Essentially I want a great all rounder, confidence inspiring but responsive and fun.

Forget the value for money bit, that's gone now.

Does that description match the whyte you have?
Does it match the orange, regardless of the spec?
Does it actually match any bike they sell?

If so go ride a few.

I'd probably go for the orange tbh. You are going to upgrade bits anyway over time.

Sounds that despite buying a good bike its not what you want, in that you believe a FS is the 'right thing'. Given that you can return it I'd second the Orange as a very forgiving and confidence inspiring ride. Sure its not the best VFM, but its there and now !

Rather than look for a bike to solve the issues you are having (you mention confidence), I think a skills course would be a wise thing for you to do.

You don't need an amazing bike to feel confidence on red and blue trails. You need to learn to ride.

Seems a bit of buyers remorse to me.

Out of interest, if you were spending quite a chunk of cash, why only demo one brand?

Sounds to me you really don't know what you want.
I can't offer an opinion, I know I wouldn't want a whyte though.

A couple of points.

1 Ashton isn't really full Sus terrain. I'm not surprised a hartal felt better there especially if you only had a short ride.

2 I wouldn't worry about wheel size. Judge each bike on b it's own merits. Spares for all the wheel sides will be around for longer than the bike will last.

I think if you are asking the question on a forum you really know what you want and you are just looking for others to justify your decision. Do what feels right for you, I think you already know.

27.5, not 29, must read more carefully. I'm not so sure anymore - take it back and try more/again.

Keep the 905 and look around for a nice sale 27.5 full suss too if your budget allows at 2-2.5k. Always good to have a "spare" bike as a chuckabout and the Whyte 905 is the same geo as the Whyte 19 which should make it a very nice ride.

You say you're worried about feeling under-biked in places like Afan; I think the important question is for how much of your [i]normal[/i] riding, will you feel under-biked? If Ashton Court is your usual trails and you enjoyed the bike there, how much does it matter that it's not the perfect bike for an occasional trip elsewhere? It will still be more capable than your existing bike.

Is there a reason why you couldn't hang on to it for a bit, and if you feel you really want a FS transplant the parts onto an FS frame? I don't think 29er trail bikes are going anywhere yet.

Hardtails are only ridden by UK weirdos with beards and XC racers.

Thanks for that.

Underbiked at Afan.
Lolcanos.

the Whyte G150 seems way overbiked for general trail use, or is that a realistic option? Budget is £2.5k...

150mm is the suspension choice of most of my riding chums. Sure the climbs can be a bit more challenging (for me at least as I'm a bit chubbby) but they are seriously confidence inspiring whilst attacking the downhills, especially when the going gets rocky.

Could you keep the rockhopper for the gentler trails and run two bikes?

Ignore the reviews online and in mags. When [i]you [/i]ride the bike do [i]you [/i]feel more confident? If the answer is yes then you've got yourself a great bike. If the answer is no, then you have two choices. Take it back and get something else or stick with it and ride it until you gain confidence. There are no magic bikes that will transform you into a confident rider. That only comes with practice and tbh, almost any* bike will do.

* I realise than the majority on here will disagree with this statement. Doesn't mean it's incorrect 😀

29er HTs are so good at what they do that I'd question the need for FS.

Oh my. Just when I thought the big wheel hyperbole had gone as far as it could, daveh lifts it to a whole new level. Chapeau sir!

Don't over-think the bike or your riding. If you liked the 905 on testing just ride that and number 1 - enjoy it! Full suss isn't everything, a mate of mine rides everything we do in the Peaks on his hardtail and loves it.

I#m wary of getting injuries from messed up descents, from messed up landings from drop offs etc.

Relying on the bike to keep you from falling off is going to result in a more severe injury.

My view is if you're doing it on your hardtail, you're doing it right. You'll be kept at slower speeds, so when does go wrong whilst you're learning, it'll hopefully less severe.

Learning stuff is easiser on a hardtail too for upteen reasons, most important IMO is feedback. Take grip, grip is about weight distribution to correctly load your tyres, on a hardtail you can feel it, manipulate it more easily. On a full sus, the communication does get lost, things become vague, and you're not quite sure if you've weighted correctly or the suspension maintaining wheel contact with the ground has compensated for poor weight distribution. Then you have jumps and drops, you can sense a lot more easily what is going on and understand what is happening. A full sus will compensate your landings for a while, give you a false sense of security and lead you onto something that could be out of your depth.

Starting to smell a troll..... 🙂

Stop reading about bikes and just go and ride the Whyte.

Whilst I agree with many here that in terms of skills, staying with a hardtail is best, mtbing is not some puritanical religion where deviance from the ways of the high priest hood will earn you a painful death and an eternity in purgatory.

Go and get the full suss and go and have some fun, but don't come whining when Aston Court is all of a sudden boring.

Thanks for all the replies. I agree I'm probably overthinking it. The 905 was much, much more fun and confidence inspiring than the rockhopper. The real testing ground will be Wales of course.

As a relative newbie who's ridden afan a few times on a hard tail, it will be fine, there's nothing there that a decent hard tail won't be more than capable on. When I demod a full sus there it wasn't easier I just had to be going faster to scare myself!

Get it exchanged and LOOK at what they can get you/have in 26 (oh no shock!) or 650b full sus options.

Underbiked at Afan.
Lolcanos.

Not been to Afan, but is anyone ever underbiked at a trail centre (barring DH/bike parks)?

I think my comments about afan were a bit misleading. Don't get me wrong, both the rockhopper and I coped with the wall descents fine and enjoyed it. It was more that at times I was yearning for more support, especially up front from the fork, and a smoother ride.

I think the sensible thing is to go for a blast round there today (got day off work) and see how fun the 905 makes it. If I'm left thinking it was too rough to be fun etc, then I'll go exchange (pending no damage to bike!!).

I#m wary of getting injuries from messed up descents, from messed up landings from drop offs etc.

Just bear in mind that you will undoubtedly get yourself into more trouble with a full-sus, not less 😉

Stick don't twist.
I've got a 4+K carbon full sus and steel hard tail and ride the HT more often.
Get some big volume tyres for when you go to the areas you think you need a full sus. Plenty of folk crash and injure themselves on full sus bikes.
Better to want what you've got than get what you want, as my nan used to say.
A lower spec Orange will feel just that.
You certainly won't miss the servicing.

Jesus wept OP, you really don't know WHAT you want. Buy secondhand until you do know.

Ha.

So I took the 905 hardtail to Afan the other day and did the Wall trail again. I was fully expecting to love it (after a very positive Ashton Court experience) – as it was fun on my Rockhopper previously, so could only be much more so on the 905. To be honest, it didn’t wow me at all. Yes a lot will come down to very average ability on the bike, but the pedal strikes were infuriating. The bottom bracket is so ridiculously low, that even the smallest rock causes clipping. I actually rode the trail better, with far better technique using my rockhopper previously, purely because I could weight the outside pedal/lean bike better on turns, without constant fear of the outside pedal clipping a rock or undulation. The same was true on climbs, having to avoid pedalling on all but the flattest surface underneath, or at least being ultra-careful.

Most telling however, it was the descents that left me wishing I just bought a full suss – firstly because the 905, although different, wasn’t THAT different to my rockhopper in terms of trail feedback/handling/fun and secondly because I would have loved a bit more grip, support and comfort while descending. In other words, I decided the best course of action is going to be to keep the Rockhopper for quick blasts around Ashton Court and larking around and get a separate full suss for bigger trips. Rockhopper has a flexy 100mm fork, narrow bars and a steep head angle, so isn’t ideal, but it will do for milder trails, it’s also nippy as heck.

So…while Bike UK told me previously I could only do a straight swap to another bike, when I went in yesterday, they agreed to give me a full credit note, with no deduction for the numerous scratches, advising I could wait until 2015 bikes released if I so wish. In addition they can also get more brands in than previously thought: -

Marin
Saracen
Orange
Whyte

Very relieved and chuffed, and lesson learnt to demo more in future!

Any of the above brands worth exploring for 2014? Marin Mount vision maybe? Or better to wait until 2015 models from all of the above?

if you're getting pedal strikes on a hard tail you need to adjust your technique as it'll be worse with a full sus bike once you start compressing the suspension a bit.

Looks like you got a result on the exchange thing though!

"purely because I could weight the outside pedal/lean bike better on turns, without constant fear of the outside pedal clipping a rock or undulation"

How on earth are you grounding the outside peddle while leaning the bike in a turn - that doesn't make sense.

You will get more pedal strikes more with a full suss

Are you making any attempt at all to avoid these obstacles?

if you're getting pedal strikes on a hard tail you need to adjust your technique as it'll be worse with a full sus

^ wwaswas speaks the truth.

Also, what's wrong with a 29er trail bike? new bikes being 27.5 doesn't make a perfectly fine bike suddenly crap?

I would try to have a proper ride on the T129 and the G150.

this thread is basically just a FS vs HT debate in disguise so there is no correct answer, just personal opinion. For me personally I prefer FS in just about every situation (I also have a rigid 29er and until last year a 26" HT). Yes a HT is all you need most places, so is a unicycle if by need you mean be able to make it around. For me though I have more fun on a FS and given that's why I'm riding in the first place I couldn't care less if someone thinks I'm overbiked some places.

Modern full suss bikes are getting pretty low these days to improved cornering etc, so you'll get a fair few pedal strikes if you're not careful.

As others have said, I think you'll get yourself in more trouble with a bouncy bike as a confidence booster because you're likely to take more risks / ride a bit faster.

Good result on the exchange though.

The OP is clearly new to the sport and is simply in the process of discovering the n+1 rule. In addition to his hardtail he will also be requires a 120mm full suss, a 160mm full suss, a rigid winter singlespeed, a road bike and a pub bike.

To start with at least

I await the thread that your new bike is heavy and lacks the direct feel that your previous bike had... 😉

You have to compromise somewhere. Hence n+1 as mentioned above.

Re pedal strikes, all I'm saying is that they were alarmingly frequent, compared to the same trail on the rockhopper. This was while being conscious of using good technique. Even at Ashton court I noticed it, where its never been a problem. T129 caused no issue either

Even at Ashton court I noticed it, where its never been a problem. T129 caused no issue either

This is puzzling, there's 20mm difference between the two bikes, but then you get the sag on the full sus, i'd expect them to ride similarly.

Also, *where* at ashton court do you get pedal strike, I struggle to think of anywhere it's even a possibility?

Stop worrying about pedal strikes - your pedals can take it and once you've got used to your new bike the pedal strikes will stop/reduce.

Not sure how you're getting pedal strikes on corners? Rock steps I can understand but corners??

dvowles82 - Member

Ha.

So I took the 905 hardtail to Afan the other day and did the Wall trail again. I was fully expecting to love it (after a very positive Ashton Court experience) – as it was fun on my Rockhopper previously, so could only be much more so on the 905. To be honest, it didn’t wow me at all. Yes a lot will come down to very average ability on the bike, but the pedal strikes were infuriating. The bottom bracket is so ridiculously low, that even the smallest rock causes clipping. I actually rode the trail better, with far better technique using my rockhopper previously, purely because I could weight the outside pedal/lean bike better on turns, without constant fear of the outside pedal clipping a rock or undulation. The same was true on climbs, having to avoid pedalling on all but the flattest surface underneath, or at least being ultra-careful.

Most telling however, it was the descents that left me wishing I just bought a full suss – firstly because the 905, although different, wasn’t THAT different to my rockhopper in terms of trail feedback/handling/fun and secondly because I would have loved a bit more grip, support and comfort while descending. In other words, I decided the best course of action is going to be to keep the Rockhopper for quick blasts around Ashton Court and larking around and get a separate full suss for bigger trips. Rockhopper has a flexy 100mm fork, narrow bars and a steep head angle, so isn’t ideal, but it will do for milder trails, it’s also nippy as heck.

So…while Bike UK told me previously I could only do a straight swap to another bike, when I went in yesterday, they agreed to give me a full credit note, with no deduction for the numerous scratches, advising I could wait until 2015 bikes released if I so wish. In addition they can also get more brands in than previously thought: -

Marin
Saracen
Orange
Whyte

Very relieved and chuffed, and lesson learnt to demo more in future!

Any of the above brands worth exploring for 2014? Marin Mount vision maybe? Or better to wait until 2015 models from all of the above?

that is not the first time I've heard of the Whyte pedal strikes. A chap I was out with last night had his new Whyte and the BB is ridiculously low. He used to ride a Stiffee which he has stupidly given to his son (idiot), and cannot get on with this bike. Riding next to him the BB height is very low, the chainstays even slope downward from the rear axel. It belongs in a skip..

Just to add, I am a keen proponent of low bb's as they give fantastic "rail-ability", but for an everyday trail bike riding rooty or rocky trails, the Whyte is too low. I wouldn't like it, and I'm a biking god 8)

IA - at Ashton court it was when going through a couple of drawn out turns with SLIGHTLY undulating ground beneath. Bike leaned slightly as only a drawn out corner corner, light on the bike, outside pedal down, outside elbow up. And on rock steps in red section with pedals level.

I'm certainly not alone though, when I returned the bike to shop I told them this. The staff member (by all accounts a decent rider) raised his eyebrows and remarked that he found exactly the same on a recent test ride.

outside pedal clipping on corners sounds like a technique issue to me?! or maybe it's line choice?

That said, the MBR review that gave the 905 full marks did mention its pedal clipping low bb as one of it's few downsides. see here

from my limited experience, a hardtail is a hardtail and no matter how good a frame it is, it's never going to feel as smooth as a full sus and the rear wheel will always skip over things that rear sus will keep the tyres grip on.

That feeling of looseness and being on the edge at lesser speeds on lesser trails is what sells them to some people and steers others away.

dvowles82 - have you got a new bike yet?

Of the brands/prices you've mentioned, try out a Saracen Kili Flyer. Really enjoyed it when I got my hands on one!

Just buy and orange five from them and be done with it! Value for money they are not great. But the bike will have you grinning from ear to ear even if you just use it to nip down to the shops for a pint of milk.

No, not yet bought a new bike. Back on the rockhopper pro 2011 at the moment – actually loved the fairly recently extended freeminers trail at FOD last weekend, had a blast. Managed to keep on the tail of my experienced mate on an Orange Alpine 160. This said, despite the dry conditions, the roots and rocky berms did leave me wishing for a full suss (at times).

Had another test ride on the Whyte T129 last night, only at Ashton Court though. To be honest, it did little for me. I missed the responsiveness and feeling of charging/acceleration out of turns that you get with smaller wheels. While it carved drawn out turns at speed beautifully, even falling into line quite sharpish, it seemed to ‘lurch over’, or ‘collapse’ into turns more if that makes sense. It wasn’t a very nice sensation. Worse still, it produced a more constant state of forward momentum and flow, as opposed to the stop-start, bursts of speed and slowing down that I’m more accustomed to. Loads of people will love that, but personally I didn’t. Coming from a more surfing background, perhaps it loosely ties in with that – surfing makes you work very hard for little rewards, full of bursts of speed and slower moments. I appreciate that Ashton Court is relatively tame, but it still gives a good indication. I also threw it down the Super Nova downhill 3 times to get a taste of its descending abilities. Again, not particularly impressed – I found it more fun, controlled and responsive doing so on the whyte 905 and rockhopper previously. I’m sure it would probably be more fun at somewhere like Cymcarn or Afan Y Wal though.

Again, no pedal strikes at Afan, FOD or ashton court on either of the 2 above bikes since riding the 905! The latter really does have a stupidly low BB.

Had considered the Saracen Kili Flyer, but bikeradar review comments on rear suspension really put me off! How did you find it in practice??

Orange 5 – will arrange a test ride.

I'd be inclined to try the G150 - as much as many on STW hate the "Enduro" thing, the fact is that it has been designed as a proper Enduro race bike and this is reflected in its ability to do 50k+ rides with big climbs and descents. yes it will be a bit slower on bigger climbs, but it will be an absolute riot descending, which is where the focus lies.

I'd say try that as well as seeing how you get on with the Marin too - was out with one of the Paligap guys a couple of weeks ago and he was on the fully pimped Mount Vision and it seemed really good.

Don't worry about the whole "overbiked" thing either - from what you have written, it sounds like you are edging towards FS and a bike that can do South Wales etc and take some abuse - a 150mm (ish) bike is bang on for that.

I missed the responsiveness and feeling of charging/acceleration out of turns that you get with smaller wheels. ... Worse still, it produced a more constant state of forward momentum and flow, as opposed to the stop-start, bursts of speed and slowing down that I’m more accustomed to.

You need to spend more time riding in general. Flow is really what you're aiming for, not staccato movements. Stopping and starting is wasting energy in braking and accelerating.

The 29er will be able to carry speed through corners better, as it has more grip, and momentum. You need to learn to trust the front end will grip, and put more weight over it. Once you do this, your speed will go through the roof.

The one thing I bet you're doing, is looking down at the trail in front of you - not ahead, in turns. Which will make you a lot slower, and cause you to brake in turns, not going into turns. Braking is for straight lines, not corners 😉

I agree flow is a good thing and getting a corner just right feels amazing, regardless of the bike. I meant more that personally I think it's more rewarding having a bike which responds (more) positively to bursts of acceleration and quick changes of direction.

As a (presumed fellow) Bristolian, I'm finding it quite hard reading this.

I do all the riding you do, except on a 4+ year old Cotic Soul - complete with those rubbish 26er wheels, 27.2mm static seatpost, 1.1/8 headset etc - y'know...just total rubbish. Man, I need a new bike to solve all my problems. 😉

I think you're placing too much importance on the bike. I've had all sorts of bikes: rigid, bounce, full bounce, all the materials... Doesn't make that much difference, unless you tell yourself that you want it to.

Just enjoy the ride.

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Yeah you're probably right! I do over think things. Will just get on with it and enjoy.

dvowles82 - I am on the same journey as you (if that is any re-assurance) and it has taken me a long time to work out what I want. I think half the fun of buying a bike is doing all the research and talking about it, so I think there is no harm in bouncing your thoughts off of lots of people and trying lots of bikes, and taking a good deal of time doing it.

I have just got back into mountain biking because of FS bikes and cycling at trial parks like Cannock and Swinley Forest (awesome on the T129 - so smooth and fast - although appreciate that isn't your 'feel thing'). Infact, I sold my hardtail this evening and I am very excited to be buying either a T129 works or T129s in the not too distant future.

Models aside I was talking to a guy in my LBS and he wisely said that comfort on a bike also gives you confidence. Confidence tends to make you relax and enjoy things and be more fluid on your ride. Obviously, like some have said you have to watch you don't get over confident and do yourself an accident but I think confidence is king as in most sports, when you tense-up you tend to make mistakes (especially in surfing).

Anyway, thought I would write this post in support of your mission/journey. My thought, for what it is worth, is that you should go full suss. If the 905 had been right for you, I'm not sure you would be on here?! I can't resist saying either, have you thought about the Scott Genius 720 (650b)? I know it is big on the front but has that acceleration, nimble thing you were talking about. Just a thought...

what happened to the tall Whyte BB and "Trail geometry" HT's?

only a year or two ago the 19's (which I thought had the same geo 905) were oft criticised for high BB (zero drop)..

made the bikes feel tall and awkward - I would have happily traded a few pedal strikes for the lower CofG!..

😈 Personally I thought it was because they just stuck a 120 fork on a 100 geo frame "trail Geometry" 😆 trailing stock maybe..

Dude, you think too much. Get drunk more often.