New 105 di2. But maybe no more mechanical?

I am sold in Di2 and discs, but that price is eye-watering...

. Current 105 is the perfect group set for a lot of peoples requirements, I use it on my winter bike and it works a treat.

105 is/was perfect cos it's basically Ultegra from two years ago. Similarly, Tiagra is basically 105 from two years ago. So, most people would probably get on fine with Tiagra.

It's a bit like Deore in MTB - once seen as a bit budget/basic, but it's now at a level of quality where it's increasingly seen as all most people need.

I think I'm just going to have to get used to Tiagra 😭

I just still can't believe that discs and D12 are really such game changers that we're ready for a wholesale shift and are all prepared to suck up the cost, but I'm evidently very much in the minority on that one.

Edit: a couple of articles/posters on road.cc seem very confident that the existing mechanical/rim brake grouppos will be available for some time still, and I guess you can still find mechanical Dura Ace if you look, so how do Shimano phase out old groupsets? Will they sneakily keep old 105 available for several more years?

Edit: a couple of articles/posters on road.cc seem very confident that the existing mechanical/rim brake grouppos will be available for some time still

The article I read seemed to suggest that there'd effectively be two versions of 105 for quite a while yet; 12sp Di2 and 11sp mechanical.

You can, if you search enough, still buy brand new 10sp Dura Ace components (7700 and 7800) so I imagine 11sp 105 stuff will be around for many years yet.

Never used electronic shifting, I have done a few fastish rides with other using it and they seem to just smash through gears with no timing or skill. Does the average bumbler need it?

It’s going to get increasingly difficult to find rim brake compatible wheels too.

Does the average bumbler need it?

I think, in fairness, the average bumbler probably benefits most! I keep forgetting that it's possible to be a fast and dedicated rider and still not know how to adjust cable tension, in fact in my head the main reason Di2 is so popular is that the MAJORITY of people can't adjust mechanical gears properly. Otherwise I just can't see why you would spend that much?

1700 quid!! Buying di2 groupsets is what cycle to work schemes are for right?

Never used electronic shifting, I have done a few fastish rides with other using it and they seem to just smash through gears with no timing or skill. Does the average bumbler need it?

I think you answered your own question.

I just still can’t believe that discs and D12 are really such game changers that we’re ready for a wholesale shift and are all prepared to suck up the cost, but I’m evidently very much in the minority on that one.

When discs were first introduced on cars people didn't want them either, one of their arguments against was that they were that good that other cars couldn't slow down as well so you'd be constantly been run into from behind.

A long-time roadie pal has recently gone to discs, he's converted, as (according to him) on long descents he's not worried anymore about whether he can actually stop.

I keep forgetting that it’s possible to be a fast and dedicated rider and still not know how to adjust cable tension

Or how to back off the pedals when changing gear or plan the gear change slightly ahead of time.

I am a self confessed tight arse on my bikes but £1700 is crazy for 105. The Di2 technology has been around since 2009 so don't really understand why a few bits of questionably old electronics are costing £800 over mechanical.

Moving to electronic makes sense, as above a lot of people are going to struggle getting mechanical gears working well week in week out.

A long-time roadie pal has recently gone to discs, he’s converted, as (according to him) on long descents he’s not worried anymore about whether he can actually stop.

I am 100% in favour of disks, but on a long (or short descent) rim brakes are more than capable enough especially the dual pivot ones. I hired a bike with rim brakes in Mallorca this Easter. It was ace, never crossed my mind than discs would be better. Although TBF fair it was dry, but had it been wet I am pretty confident the tyres would have been the weak point.

A long-time roadie pal has recently gone to discs, he’s converted, as (according to him) on long descents he’s not worried anymore about whether he can actually stop.

I've not worried about if i can stop due to brake performance since the dual pivot brake was launched in the mid 90s.

It’s going to get increasingly difficult to find rim brake compatible wheels too.

Tell me about it! I've got an S-Works road bike that's near 20 years old and still pretty much immaculate. I put a set of Prime wheels on it about 6 years ago (CRC's own brand) and recently the front one delaminated on one side.

Finding decent reasonably priced QR / rim brake wheels now is tricky! Most manufacturers have gone more or less exclusively to disc + thru-axle for anything mainstream and it's now only the super high end or super budget end that comes in rim-brake versions.

Never used electronic shifting, I have done a few fastish rides with other using it and they seem to just smash through gears with no timing or skill. Does the average bumbler need it?

You'd be amazed at how few people seem to know how to use gearing effectively (electric or mechanical). In many respects, electric (especially if set up to do synchro or semi-synchro shifting) is actually far better for these people. SO many times on ride leading I've had to untangle chains and mechs from ham-fisted shifting, setting off in the wrong gear and trying to crunch through 7 cogs at once, using big-big etc. Or explain to people that they don't need to be in the 50-11 as soon as the road is flat / downhill and similarly they don't need to be in 34-34 as soon as the road goes even slightly uphill. Other Gears Are Available.

Oh, as for Di2 (AXS/Etap), anecdotally, i'm hearing that chains and cassettes are lasting a lot less time due to all the smashing across the cassette with no sympathy, especially on bikes ridden by people with no prior experience of mech systems (or no mechanical sympathy).

Agree on Rim brakes been fine but the advantage of disks is that you can use decent carbon wheels in all conditions

Recently went to the lakes and 2 lads managed to ruin carbon rims dragging their brakes down hardknott and wrynose.

As long as mechanical will still be available then fair enough, however 1700 is still a piss take.

however 1700 is still a piss take

Wonder what the price is in Euro or Yen or Dollars?
£ is at historic low against all of them (thanks Brexit!) plus inflation plus supply chain issues...

so don’t really understand why a few bits of questionably old electronics are costing £800 over mechanical.

Same for discs! I'd even argue that a disc brake calliper probably requires less time and material to manufacture than a rim brake calliper, so is all the extra cost just opportunist, because the technology has been promoted so heavily? I guess that's just capitalism, but ultimately the nub of

my objection to discs and electric shifting is that eventually I'm going to have to pay extra for it too, which feels like a bit of a bumming when neither technology offers any significant benefits for me.

Maybe instead of buying that shiny new Italian road bike I should just be stockpiling groupsets and rim brake wheelsets 🙄

they don’t need to be in 34-34 as soon as the road goes even slightly uphill

please come for a ride on my tandem. I don't need to be in 34-34, I need something lower. a LOT lower. That's the big sticking point of Di2 for me (*welkl apart from the frankly ludicrous price), it doesn't go low enough. Not everyone is a racer, some of us need low gears. Currently running a tiagra 3*10 so my lowest gear is 26-36, but the front shifter has now failed and been replaced TWICE and is ALWAYS a pain to get working right (triples always are)

Do they still make those inline cam adjusters?

Little twisty switch in the cable outer with two positions, one for using middle and small chainring, the other for middle and outer.

Used to see them in the early days of STIs when triple shifters weren't available.

setting off in the wrong gear and trying to crunch through 7 cogs at once, using big-big etc. Or explain to people that they don’t need to be in the 50-11 as soon as the road is flat / downhill and similarly they don’t need to be in 34-34 as soon as the road goes even slightly uphill. Other Gears Are Available.

I see you've met my wife

Yes they do and yes I have one fitted but one would have thought that over time, they would have died out by FIXING THE ISSUE WITH THE SHIFTERS BEING RUBBISH, nbot by saying "aww **** it, no one needs a triple anyway, who needs low gears, double only from now on"

edit - oh maybe I don't, I do have an inline cable adjuster but it's more abut trimming the position, not a 2-way switch

It does feel a bit like 105 is more high end than 105 should be, I mean carbon wheels! I assume they'll just keep producing the mechanical 11speed 105, it's not like another gear was needed or the current groupset is lacking.

I thought it was funny that the only two cassettes available were 11-34 and 11-36. When I bought my 105 equipped road bike 10 years ago I had to pay extra to get an 11-28 cassette which was seen as a big range.

Yeah, it was a ~50mm long tube with two grips/pegs and a cam slot. Could either line them up on the same side for one setting and have them at 180 degrees to each other for the other setting. Something like that.

Not ideal, but would allow you to buy decent double shifters.

Might be one to ask the retrobike crowd about, or a tandem specialist whose been around (at least) 3 decades!

Or get one made. 3d printing and parts from an existing cable adjuster.

When I bought my 105 equipped road bike 10 years ago I had to pay extra to get an 11-28 cassette which was seen as a big range.

I remember the days of road bikes having 12-21 or 12-23! 12-25 was available but you'd only use that if you were ancient or were doing alpine touring.
Turning up at a road race with a 25 on would have been a major faux pas!

Hmmmm, corncob freewheels...

(I've got a 12-21 D-A 10 speed cassette somewhere, only ever been fitted to my TT Trispoke wheel...

and a 12-19 8 speed freewheel that i threw away in a clean out a couple of years ago. Think i only used it a few dozen times.)

I thought it was funny that the only two cassettes available were 11-34 and 11-36

Yes doesn't really go with carbon wheels and Di2 which suggest fast road bike, not tourer....

NB SRAM Etap convert here, all my bikes are disc as well....

My winter bike is still 105 mechanical, keep meaning to migrate it to Force Etap as I get very confused with gears for the first few weeks when I swap between summer and winter bikes...

11-36

Wait, is new 105 11 speed or 12 speed?

Could do with an 11speed 11-36 for my 2x gravel bike...

Edit: 12 speed, boo

I think the average bumbler probably needs Di2 given the number of folk who can't change gears properly, or set them up. Done a few sportives in the past, and the number of people scrabbling for gears at the slightest incline is crazy - rattle rattle, clunk/bang/'shoot !'. Click click on my old Dura Ace 7400 down tube shifters, changed like lightning and crisp.

Stupid money for 105 though.

two versions of 105 for quite a while yet; 12sp Di2 and 11sp mechanical.

My thoughts exactly, they'll surely keep 11sp mechanical 105 available for the foreseeable.

Are they doing the same with Ultegra or did that get a mechanical 12sp iteration?

Are they doing the same with Ultegra or did that get a mechanical 12sp iteration?

Ultegra went Di2 only a couple of years ago and that was the same - 12sp Di2 vs 11sp mechanical. You can still buy the mechanical stuff, in fact Canyon sell one of their current Ultimate road bikes with a mechanical 11sp R8000 Ultegra groupset.

Ultegra went Di2 only a couple of years ago and that was the same – 12sp Di2 vs 11sp mechanical.

I had a vague recollection that was the case, hopefully they'll be able to reduce the cost of 11sp 105 and Ultegra in future as the R&D costs are paid off (stop laughing).

I was thinking from an commercial perspective they'd be mad to discontinue the mechanical groupsets for the OE market, where they are the benchmark.

I remember the days of road bikes having 12-21 or 12-23! 12-25 was available but you’d only use that if you were ancient or were doing alpine touring.

I’m struggling to fathom how folks managed to ride some hills in the old days tbh! I rode the lakes at the weekend, had 34/32 on and a few bits were still brutal. I was in that gear from the very first pedal stroke up hardknott

I’m a reasonable club cyclist, ftp around 4 w/kg, and no way I could even contemplate getting up some of those roads on 39/23, my knees would explode. I’m assuming folks like me just stayed on the flats back in the day!

I’m struggling to fathom how folks managed to ride some hills in the old days tbh!

You just get on with it!

I've ridden up Coal Road (Garsdale Head) on my SS MTB (32:16) from the Dent Dale side. Can't say it was particularly enjoyable mind....

I’m struggling to fathom how folks managed to ride some hills in the old days tbh!

I think you'll find they did a lot of grinding

I’m struggling to fathom how folks managed to ride some hills in the old days tbh!

Was it just a conditioning/familiarity thing though? If those were the only gears they had then presumably they grew used to them on smaller hills etc. and developed the appropriate muscles? Did people just ride a lot more and perhaps also have more physical jobs back in the day e.g. just a bit tougher?

In all my experiences riding singlespeed I was pleasantly surprised what I could get up in time, but ultimately I always binned it as I would hurt my knees or give myself some other over-use injury because I just wasn't used to singlespeeding, or didn't spend time getting used to it.

Also, let's face it, some climbs have got a far more ferocious reputation than they really deserve when faced with modern gearing. I'm no club cyclist and only scrape 3W/kg but rarely struggle with hills in a 34/28, and if I do it's just because I've paced them badly. Maybe back in the day the reputations of some hills WERE deserved, precisely because they were grinding up in silly gears.

I'm always desperate to find excuses as to why riders just seemed so much tougher back in the day 😎

I’m struggling to fathom how folks managed to ride some hills in the old days tbh!

Was chatting on a ride to Arthur Caygill, of Arthur Caygill Cycles Richmond North Yorkshire, many years ago, he was saying in the old days they stopped at the bottom of the hills, swapped their fixed rear wheel over to the lower cog, rode up it and the swapped back to the higher gear at the top...

Never used electronic shifting, I have done a few fastish rides with other using it and they seem to just smash through gears with no timing or skill.

Di2 does allow you to basically shift under load in a way that mechanical doesn't, so they - might - not all be quite the choppers you think they are.

(I like to think I know how to change gear, but I have Di2 now and frequently find myself changing under load because I can and because it'll probably save me 0.5 of a second 😀 . I'm sure it's not good for my chain though).

A higher cadence has become more of a thing so lower gearing makes more sense, no one rides like Jan Ullrich anymore!

And on the subject of OE.

The RRP for this is a bit steep, but I'd hope to be buying it on a complete bike under £3k.

Or is that naive?

The groupset weight is about 3kg, which must be similar to my Ultegra 6800 mechanical groupset (with the heavier disc brakes).

And that comes out at an acceptable total weight on a hi-mod carbon frame.

GCN video showing the full 105 Di2 groupset (inc the wheels)

The RRP for this is a bit steep, but I’d hope to be buying it on a complete bike under £3k.

Manufacturers buy it well below RRP when buying 100s in bulk for new bikes...

Price for 105 is a bit ridiculous, but once normal service resumes and the usual 50% off RRP returns it's a bit more acceptable.

Big fan of electronic, have no issue with mechanical, adjusting gears/cable tensions, but it is refreshing that whatever the conditions, everything shifts perfectly, every time. No over shifting to overcome cable friction at the end of a wet gritty ride.

Downsides of DI2 only - unless you have compatible internal routing, it's useless as an upgrade. I'm on Etap for that reason as the wireless means it'll fit any frame.

Still on rim brakes too, never had an issue, still out descend most people in most races. Appreciate the Hardknott comment, but that'll warp most discs too if dragged all the way down.

Oh, as for Di2 (AXS/Etap), anecdotally, i’m hearing that chains and cassettes are lasting a lot less time due to all the smashing across the cassette with no sympathy, especially on bikes ridden by people with no prior experience of mech systems (or no mechanical sympathy).

Conversely, I have heard drivetrain longevity quoted as a benefit of electronic shifting, because shifting is so consistently precise. I guess this assumes the same rider on either system and that they don't abuse either with bad gear changes, but I think that's reasonable - I'm just as careful with my AXS as I am on mechanical and I struggle a bit with the idea that shifting under power is suddenly OK. It still feels horrible to me. A bad change still feels like I'm mistreating my expensive cassette.

However this is on mtb so they're big gaps between gears.

I struggle a bit with the idea that shifting under power is suddenly OK.

Ditto, I'm not sure if the sensation at the shifter is what prevents me shifting under load, it's all to do with the interaction between the chain and the sprockets I thought.

Am I the only pervert who takes great pleasure in executing a perfect shift under horrible circumstances? Finding those couple of unloaded pedal strokes on a steep rubbly gravel climb and somehow managing to get the shift in and keep climbing without any break in your cadence? Andy Schleck could learn a thing or two from me 😆

Oh, as for Di2 (AXS/Etap), anecdotally, i’m hearing that chains and cassettes are lasting a lot less time due to all the smashing across the cassette with no sympathy, especially on bikes ridden by people with no prior experience of mech systems (or no mechanical sympathy).

I'd like to know who you're listening to, Ultegra 8050 here and 8500km in I changed the chain at 0.5% wear and it's not just some fancy ass summer / dry only use bike, yeah it's a fancy ass bike but it gets ridden in all weathers.

My 105/ Ultegra mechanical set up (on two bikes) is smooth, precise, and needs very little maintenance. I can see the point of no cable and self trimming, but I'm far from convinced that it's a major benefit, say in the way moving shifters from the down tube to the hoods was.

Did people just ride a lot more and perhaps also have more physical jobs back in the day e.g. just a bit tougher?

Yeah, we were all miners and steelworkers back in the late 90s! 😀

(I tried to get an 11-27 cassette to put on my CAADX R800 and ride the Etape in 2000. It was almost the first time that such a low range cassette had become widely available for 'racing' bikes, and were like hens' teeth. It would have replaced an 12-23 or 25 cassette which came as standard on pretty much every road bike. I can't remember whether I actually got hold of one, or whether my suffering on Ventoux was because of a 23T lowest gear!)

Cannondale yr 2000 brochure :

Edit..bike radar says a full group set will cost 1700 quid rrp😳😳 you can but the current version for 700 and the rrp is only 900

Given price rises on everything over the last 6-8 months especially That £900 current would likely be £12-1300 anyway so the jump to di2 isn't as big a % as it sounds. It's still not small change though

The RRP for this is a bit steep, but I’d hope to be buying it on a complete bike under £3k.

I think outside of the cheaper brands it might be for the reasons above to be honest.
Ribble are listing the cgr at £2800 with 105 di2 so it's not impossible but I doubt you'll be seeing it on a trek specialized etc for South of £3.3 (edit: that or to get the price point they'll be fitting wheels with lead rims, isis bottom brackets cranksets that weigh more than your car etc.)

Specifying a Ribble using their Bike Builder 105 Di2 comes in at £600 more than 105 mechanical. SRAM Rival AXS is £100 less than 105 Di2, which figures as I guess Shimano would say those 2 groupsets are going to be direct competitors.

I’d like to know who you’re listening to

Assortment of shops, importers, team people.

Conversely, I have heard drivetrain longevity quoted as a benefit of electronic shifting, because shifting is so consistently precise.

SIS is as precise as anyone needs, perfectly aligned, every time (until the cable goes to shit), Di2 just adds higher load shifting and easier frequent shifting, especially with all the options for shifter buttons. I guess the whole multi/single shifting part of it will have changed though.

Specifying a Ribble using their Bike Builder 105 Di2 comes in at £600 more than 105 mechanical.

Also that mechanical will be last years model by the sounds of the above "no mechanical yet", so will be in a heavier slower colour.

In the GCN video he says he shifts once every 17 seconds on average. No idea how often I shift but it is nowhere near that!

will be in a heavier slower colour

Albeit quite a bit lighter than Di2.

Albeit quite a bit lighter than Di2.

I don't know, the most comparable thing mechanical has to a battery is me and I'm a lot heavier than even a full di2 group.

However unlike the rest of the 105 group I do have a slightly more grey colour for model year '23

In the GCN video he says he shifts once every 17 seconds on average. No idea how often I shift but it is nowhere near that!

It's actually quite alarming how much you shift over the course of a ride when it's in numbers in front of you - eg from a recent Sportive:

135km, 4hours 8 min, 1553m ascent, 955 shifts equals 3.85 shifts per minute. Thats not far of a shift every 15 seconds. This was a flattish (Bar the KOM section) and fast course so lots of small cadence adjustments plus in the wind/on the wheel, but still, a lot of shifts and a lot more than I remember.

10mile TT, 25 min, 48 shifts = 2 shifts per minute. Most of that time spent in 'puppy pose' on the tops of the bars. I think we change gear way more than we consciously realise.

Albeit quite a bit lighter than Di2.

Di2 Ultegra is only about 80g heavier than mechanical Ultegra, and that's with an extra sprocket...

Re: price - crazy legs has it - it’s far better priced in dollars or euro

Brexit pigeons coming home to roost
I’m guessing the OEM’s will lap this up

Di2 Ultegra is only about 80g heavier than mechanical Ultegra, and that’s with an extra sprocket…

I've seen 2992g quoted for 105 Di2 and I think mechanical is about 2500g.

Mason have just put out a "preorder" notification for 105 Di2. They are quoting £3595 for a Definition 105 di2 which is £550 more than mechanical. So similar to Ribble's difference. Rival AXS is £3695.

I’ve seen 2992g quoted for 105 Di2 and I think mechanical is about 2500g

Ug. People selling maintenance classes will be rubbing their hands together though, soon £60 or so to learn how to adjust your own gears will be the cheapest 492g weight saving you'll ever make on a bike 😎

Quoted weights for Di2 vs mechanical sometimes leave out (or are completely ambiguous on) cable inners and outers vs Di2 wires, which reduces the weight difference somewhat.

Downsides of DI2 only – unless you have compatible internal routing

I have electronic Di2 on the steel TT trike, cable down the underside of the downtube. It's not really noticeable and that's a yellow/blue rather than black frame. Electronic shifting is fabulous on a TT bike. The 105 looks great, but the TT shifters will not be 105, I imagine.

I thought it was funny that the only two cassettes available were 11-34 and 11-36

Can you have 1126 matched to 53-39? That would be pretty awesome actually. I did miss my 53 big ring in Mallorca on the hire bike, it had a 50 whatever compact.