[Closed] Nevis Range Red - ruminations and a rant...

You read the form? 😯

You read the form?

You can shut it straight away and stop being your usual prickish persona

edit: your change of smiley changed the tone of your post so ignore the above abuse 😉

I'm not condoning not stopping to help, but, you said yourself that 100% concentration is needed and that could be something to do with it. I'm sure if anyone saw someone that needed help ten they'd stop to help

2 hours that I was more than happy to sacrifice to ensure a fellow rider was ok.

Good man. (Assume you are male, but it could be Bob, short for Kate)

Always stop for a rider down. Always stop to see if someone needs help, even if help is already there. You did the right thing, very, very much the right thing.

I raise my glass to you.

And to the others? Hmmmm.

😆

No need for such rudeness!!
I was there yesterday too Bob (and No, I've never ever ridden past an injured rider without asking/seeing if they were alright and offering help)

You're right to call him a prick though 😀

We were up yesterday too, only had a run of the red at the very end of the day but that is shit behaviour from the folk that went ripping past

Nice one for helping him out. I'd hope somebody would do the same for me...which is why I would have stopped too.

Sounds like the bike patrol guys are really needed up there based on your experience.

Again, good on you.

I'm not condoning not stopping to help, but, you said yourself that 100% concentration is needed and that could be something to do with it.

Nope just shit behaviour. Although you might be concentrating you'll still notice that something's going on when you come to pass an incident

The videos make it look harder than I found it, however there are still some issues...

I thought the videos I saw flattened it out quite a bit compared to how it felt IRL. Great trail though, and yes very shoddy behaviour. I must say though if I see someone down and there are already several people helping I'm not sure if more people stopping really adds anything to the situation.

The guy would have came off at roughly the 2:36 point in this video. He's messed up on the corner, flew off and battered himself off several massive rocks before landing 20 feet away.

No disrespect meant to him, but he looked like a leisure cyclist. Very basic Saracen hardtail, cheap supermarket helmet, not bike specific clothing. I do wonder how many riders get sucked in by the "lift assisted red xc" idea, when in reality it's way harder tougher than that

legend - Member

You're right to call him a prick though

I must say though if I see someone down and there are already several people helping I'm not sure if more people stopping really adds anything to the situation.

I was on my own for 20 minutes (with zero first aid supplies - lesson learned for me), plus several riders passed him before I even got there.

Don't see the rocks you mean at 2:36 but there's no way you could have missed a rider down anywhere around there.

I agree that if that trail is red then it is the toughest red I have seen. If you were first on scene then some others with you would have helped I am sure. No excuse for riding past a fallen MTB'r and not checking if he is okay. No excuse for that in any book as far as I am concerned. It sounds like a bad off.

When you were on scene it would have been good had at least one of the riders asked if all was okay. Again this is no more that a common courtesy to a fellow rider. You may have waved them on or you may have asked for help. Even though his mate had "gone for help" I would still have called the emergency service based on your description of the injury. His mate would have taken at least 10-15 mins to get down and that is if he made it down okay with all the adrenalin flowing.

Healing vibes to the injured rider. Sounds like it will be sore for a while.

How was his bike, before anyone else asks.

Well done BTW for doing the right thing and helping.

if I see someone down and there are already several people helping I'm not sure if more people stopping really adds anything to the situation.

I do wonder how many riders get sucked in by the "lift assisted red xc" idea, when in reality it's way harder tougher than that

Agreed - there were quite a few people on it when I was there walking a fair bit looking a bit unhappy. I heard from someone at one of the bike shops round there that the reasoning behind calling it a red XC descent was a 'marketing decision'.

I was on my own for 20 minutes (with zero first aid supplies - lesson learned for me), plus several riders passed him before I even got there.

Not saying you're wrong, was just arguing that once you were with the other people helping I wouldn't expect others to stop necessarily. Before that though, yup, terrible behaviour.

So you'd just ride past without even asking?

Nah probably not - I just know that in an accident situation having lots of people fussing around or rubbernecking but not really helping is not good for the casualty or the people who have the skills/equipment to actually help.

I thought the videos I saw flattened it out quite a bit compared to how it felt IR

In the videos, I thought the rocky sections would stop me dead, but in reality it flows really well, helped by the red dots to indicate best line choice. Although one corner kept catching me out 😡

6:18 - looks nothing in the video but it's a couple of step downs and it's off camber. The red dots indicate a line to the left but I kept missing it

Don't see the rocks you mean at 2:36

Loads of rocks just under the heather/ turf

Seeing where it happened I'll retract my statement, should've been at least a "reet"

Nice one m8 i always do the same but thankfully it's only been people with light injury's or pucntures.lots of people have stopped and offered help to myself also but there are people that whiz past and pretend not to see you.
Well done to you and the volounteers

Yeah, I know what's littered amongst the heather/peat up there fairly well 😳 .. just meant I couldn't see the exact point he'd have been lying

To make it worse, the guy had the thickest yorkshire accent ever, and with no teeth and a punctured lung, it was a nightmare trying to understand him 😆

I'm hoping he's alright though

I've ridden this trail several times and no way on earth is it a red. Definitely a black and an awkward on too. Being a red it gives people the wrong idea so they then go and get caught out by a section that is no way red grade. Passed lots of people walking down this trail, they must get quite a shock on some of the steep rocky sections.

Not much easier than the dh track in certain places. No wonder people get hurt.

And in my experience the first aid capabilities of the staff at Nevis range are not the best.

And in my experience the first aid capabilities of the staff at Nevis range are not the best.

Bike patrol guys could have used a survival blanket, but once the others got there they were excellent, and there was a surgeon waiting at the top station for him. Lots of communication on the radios too and they were very in control once they got there.

I really wanted a helicopter evac though!

My mate crashed on the boardwalk and immediately lost feeling in both legs and said his back felt funny. After 30 mins or so the first aid guys turned and told us they were going to carry him down on a stretcher!

We refused to let them and insisted on a helicopter. Sure enough he had broken his back and had a piece of bone pressing on his cord.

He's recovered ok but has a metal rod in his back and pains in his legs but he's riding again.

And in my experience the first aid capabilities of the staff at Nevis range are not the best.

I would think that is a bit of a sweeping statement? Surely it depends who/where you ask for help.

I lived in the Fort for a fair while and met and worked with some of the folk who have been involved in patrols/first aid (not MTB right enough)and there are some very experienced first aiders/med technicians - and the Belford is excellent as far as traumas on the hills go.

That's why I said in my experience. Sure in other peoples experiences they have been quite good.

Trying to carry someone with a broken back down a mountain is not a good idea!

My mate crashed on the boardwalk and immediately lost feeling in both legs and said his back felt funny. After 30 mins or so the first aid guys turned and told us they were going to carry him down on a stretcher!

😯

The first thing I did was make sure the guy could move his hands and feet. I kept him in one position but I wanted to reassure him he hadn't broken his back.

Trying to carry someone with a broken back down a mountain is not a good idea!

Sometimes there isn't any alternative. Helicopters aren't always available, and can't always fly into these locations if the conditions aren't appropriate. So sometimes it's carry them, or stay up there.

Hope you remembered to give him his teeth back or they still in your pocket? 😀

😆

I told the bike patrol guys they were in the pocket

Oh aye, I forgot about the highlight of the day.

A deaf couple walking UP the orange DH

(sign language confirmed the deaf aspect)

But they could not read the signs that said it was a MTB DH trail..

No disrespect meant to him, but he looked like a leisure cyclist. Very basic Saracen hardtail, cheap supermarket helmet, not bike specific clothing.

Or maybe that's all he can afford. Travelled a fair distance for his 'leisure' ride...

Here's my video of my mate and I doing the Nevis Red last month.
We both had pretty big offs, not because it was underrated as a RED trail, but because of human error.

[b]From the 7 stanes website:[/b]
RED = Difficult: Challenging climbs, tricky descents & technical features such as drop-off's and large rocks.

I would stop for an injured rider, always, so good on you.
However, if I was passing an injured rider that was already recieving assistance I'd [i]maybe[/i] ask if everything was alright, but there again, if there was a problem I'd also expect a cry for help. 😉

so he can only afford a cheap bike but has a car and he can travel a long way to ride.......mmmmmmmmm is not convinced by your reasoning.

I would stop if i saw a rider down, i would stop if i saw a rider down and only one helping. If i saw a group I would ask if they were OK

What car? Missed that bit of the story.

Oh sorry in your hypothetical account of his abject poverty and how he got there he hitched there...my bad 😳

Never got a lift from someone to go mountain biking? It's not that unusual among friends, you know...

Or maybe that's all he can afford. Travelled a fair distance for his 'leisure' ride...

It's got nothing to do with money. I rode a cheap bike and wore basic gear when I was inexperienced.

The guy drove an Audi and was a regional manager for a company.

his choice of bike and attire wasn't a dig at what he could afford, it was a gauge of the level of rider he was.

Of course plenty of awesome riders can and will ride basic bikes with cheap clothing and equipment.

EDIT:Thinks better off it, well wishes to the injured rider and OP you did the right thing

Like Filipe

Was it Cass's version of Filipe?

http://www.pinkbike.com/video/261369/

Surely driving an Audi makes him a riding god by default.

Stacked big style on this a couple of years back, guessing somewhere around the 6:10+ on the vid above. It was a pretty committing step down and I got the line wrong (understatement). One thing, the "on bike" vid's do not IMHO give a true picture of the trail i.e it is very committing in places, mistakes at a number of points would/could have pretty dire consequences, it is not remotely like any red graded route I have ridden elsewhere.
FWIW not stopping to help somebody, mountain biker, cyclist or anybody in distress is poor behaviour. Even if somebody is all ready at the scene of an accident it costs nothing to stop and see if any additional help is required.

From the 7 stanes website:
RED = Difficult: Challenging climbs, tricky descents & technical features such as drop-off's and large rocks.

Apart from the challenging climb, that pretty much sums up Nevis red for me. It also mentions quality mountain bikes I think.

Yup, except it's much harder than any red route ay any FC centre I've ever been to. My GF is quite happy on most trail centre reds and would have had thrown a major wobbly if she had tried it. A mate's GF whos a bit more confident came on it with us - she had watched a few videos and thought it looked ok but was shocked by how hard/intimidating it was, mainly the fact that there is very little letup.

Seeing as we're posting videos, here's mine.

Only our second or third run and I'm not very good so not too fast. 🙂

Nice work stopping and doing the decent thing.

That trail looks great but I´d probably just crawl down the wooden bits.
I´ve no problem flying down singletrack half that width but throw a few boards in and I´d have to stop and have a think about it.

Nice work stopping and doing the decent thing.

That trail looks great but I´d probably just crawl down the wooden bits.
I´ve no problem flying down singletrack half that width but throw a few boards in and I´d have to stop and have a think about it.

poor show from the riders passing by without even asking if help was needed.

i thought it was a red grade DH not a red grade XC.

Its a bit gnarly and hazardous, but if you can do red at any of the FC trail centres then this shouldn't be that much more a challenge. Who decides the trail rating criteria anyway?

General craic seems to be the further north you go the redder and blacker it gets. Have you ridden Laggan, Golspie and Balblair?
All good 🙂

Golspie

All I have to add is that I have faith in Karma.

I've been very lucky-being a big lad with an interesting capacity to function in shock- that my body absorbs hits well. Broken clavicle here, seperated something or other there, dislocated shoulder blaaah.

If we always offer assistance, then the good deeds should come back around.

Even if it means a full emergency stop and a manic-push up to tourniquet someones leg up Puke Hill, nothing should be too much trouble for a rider down.

Glad that the OP stopped and helped.

Grading stuff: climbing and paddling world has the 'grading' arguments going on, and always has done. Bottom line is, like any risk sport, is that you make your own judgements and calls. Variety is good - some is good, some is poor, some are tough graded red's. Would be purgatory if every red route was the same smooth-with-minimal-bubble-wrap-me please trails that a lot of FC trails seem to be.

It's good to be able to see videos of trails like that.

I have a lot of gnarly work to do before I'd be confident pinning that. In my limited experience, my worse injuries have been a result of hesitation, thinking "fekit" let's go and doing myself a whoopsie.

Wooden berms...in the wet. Oh dear.

*phones Jedi* (other advisers are available).

>plus several riders passed him before I even got there.<

Far far worse than not stopping when help has obviously already arrived.

Well done for helping OP

Interested in this (may need it's own thread)

with zero first aid supplies - lesson learned for me

Just what 1st aid do people ride with? Can't see a bandage would have helped with smashed teeth and punctured lung. not trying to be antagonistic but what have people found to be a useful/weight compromise

so he can only afford a cheap bike but has a car and he can travel a long way to ride.......mmmmmmmmm is not convinced by your reasoning.

So you own a car and are able to travel a fair distance to ride, therefore should have the sort of income that can throw serious money at a mountain bike?

I'll be honest. That looks like a trail that needs a bit of concentration, unless it was clear that someone needed help I'm not sure I would have stopped.
I often see folk stood or sat around by the side of the trail and they get a hi without me really looking at them. I would respond to a shout and I'd probably notice if there was screaming or cpr going on!

I have stopped on Cut Gate to patch up a rider in a bloody mess but that's a two-way multi-use trail so I was going quite steady.

I suppose we need a universally recognised sign that someone's in trouble like the skiers' crossed skis in the snow.

...I personally couldn't just ride past someone in distress/injured but I would always be worrying that the help I could offer would be minimal and would probably panic if the situation was very serious. I would still stop regardless but I can understand how some may decide not to.

I would never ignore an injured anyone.

"excuse me, scuse me"

"are you a doctor"

"no, I'm just a nosy bastard"

Oh I couldn't ride past someone I KNEW to be injured.

Good on you for stopping, but what happened to his mates - did they never get there?

tbh Irrelevent of them going, if he was in a state I'd have rung 999 anyway - they could've crashed too.

>unless it was clear that someone needed help I'm not sure I would have stopped.<

Not having a go at you but it's really not that difficult. Been down that trail countless times and have witnessed big offs,riders at the side of the trail, mechanicals etc. Somehow I've managed to concentrate on what I'M doing and shout ok as I approach? If I don't get ok back I'd check it out. It's basic courtesy / hill-craft.

There is no excuse for passing a downed rider in my mind. If you are not sure then go and check as the OP did.

So you stopped and were helping him? Why did you want everybody else to stop as well? If you needed help then I would have expected you to shout at the passing riders to call for help? I would not think it is good advice to stop at every incident when there are already others helping and they are not asking for your assistance. It may be a bit of a hassle explaining what has happened, etc, rather than getting on with helping the injured rider. Of course I could imagine a situation where I was helping someone and needed help but did not have time/thoughts to ask for it.

If I was BoardinBob there would have been two riders down. Picking up teeth and lots of blood would have me blacked out. Not the best for these situations! 😯

>So you stopped and were helping him? Why did you want everybody else to stop as well?<

If you read the OP's subsequent post he mentioned that others before him had not stopped.

I would have thought that someone with teeth missing and a collapsed lung is going to be in a rather obvious state of distress. If riders did in fact pass the guy I find that inexcusable.

My god there are some selfish pricks in this world. A quick "You OK mate?" as you pass is all that's needed. Imgine if it was you.....

Hmm. Bit crap that if groups had ridden past a cleary injured rider.

Laying face down off the side of the trail with his bike upside down, sounds pretty obvious someone was in trouble. Hope he heels okay and the OP was definitely right to stop.

As for others not stopping. I'm going to suggest two possible reasons. Fort William has set itself up as an "outdoor" destination it seems to attract groups that normally wouldn't mountain bike or be up a mountain generally - thanks to the gondola - this is probably the most likely reason for people riding past.

The second reason is riders too busy getting their gnar on to stop - all sports have an arsehole element after all, perhaps the more extreme end of the sport attracts more arseholes?

A couple did stop and I explained what was happening but most were ignorant pricks.

Sorry the whole first post sounds a bit arrogant and holier than thou. Do you want people to stop or not? Of course you should help people out if they are hurt or needy but your tone is not that encouraging.

I wonder how many people rode by having seen several folk looking after the casualty and assumed things were in hand? Of them, I wonder how many have neither the training nor the confidence to get involved and lend a hand for fear of making things worse? I wouldn't tend to assume the worst in everyone who went by. Given a possible perceived threat of litigation if things go wrong when administering help, I'm not surprised that so many people carried on without checking to see if the guy on the floor was ok. I'm not condoning it but it doesn't come as a shock.

As for the first aid kit, getting the knowledge of how to treat someone in this kind of situation is arguable more important than having a kit but not the basic skills on how to use it. Making an assessment of their injuries, keeping them and you safe without making things worse, getting simple information from them such as name, address, allergies, meds etc, in this case treating for shock and monitoring them all make the work of the emergency services easier. It's not difficult stuff but not everyone has the confidence to get involved and lend a hand.

Personally, I'd like to see first aid taught in schools and to anyone engaging in outdoor activities such as biking but that's for another debate!

Well done for lending a hand.

Cheers

Sanny

>Given a possible perceived threat of litigation if things go wrong when administering help, I'm not surprised that so many people carried on without checking to see if the guy on the floor was ok. <

There are two aspects to this. Happening upon a victim who is quite clearly being attended to by a number of other people is very different from 'riding on by' someone who is lying on the ground on their own.

In the latter scenario I don't perceive litigation as being a threat at all. Can you cite an instance where an ordinary member of the public has been successfully sued for going to the aid of a badly injured person?

If folk were riding past someone who was clearly injured - and alone, I find that both surprising and appalling.

What has the grade of the trail have to do with things?

Grading them red/black/blue/pink/whatever leads people into a false sense of security.

"I can ride other red routes, so this will be fine" or "This is graded a red trail - so there [i]can't[/i] be a 6ft blind drop round this corner I'm flying round"

Perhaps the rider down was going a bit too fast, and out of his comfort zone? It's too easy these days to blame something/someone else...

What has the grade of the trail have to do with things?

As someone pointed out above, the climbing world has decades-long debates on what grade route X should be, so MTB will no doubt have some oddities and exceptions too. At least with MTBing you have the option of getting off and walking, which I think sometimes people are too proud to do. Remember with man-made trails the perception that it is ALL rideable, unlike natural trails where you expect the odd walk/carry. If it is all designed to be rideable, how then do the designers indicate the skill level to ride it? Grading.

cleary injured

Laying face down

You wouldn't be looking, but you would certainly notice something wwwaayyy out of place

You certainly can't specify what someone else may or may not notice with any degree of certainty...

Arguing over semantics aside (which we could do all day), perhaps the best solution would have been for the injured rider's mate to wait until someone else came along and get them to get help, or stay with him, rather than leaving him.

shifter - Member
You certainly can't specify what someone else may or may not notice with any degree of certainty...

you've got to be kidding me. Are you seriously trying to say that a motionless body and a bike lying in some heather just off a wooden board walk isn't going to catch your attention?

IMO everyone that ignored the situation (regardless of the timing, for all they knew an extra pair of hands was needed for the stretcher) is a **** - and that word started with a "c" just so you know.

The mate staying behind is also a tricky one. If he didn't think that there was anyone likely to be coming along soon (this happened early in the day, so not a terrible assumption) then heading for help was the right call