[Closed] Near miss with hikers - unlucky or irresponsible?

I'd go with irresponsible, assuming it's not a dedicated bike trail.

(Edit: was originally "the former" but it wasn't clear whether that was referring to the title or the post…)

The former, assuming it’s not a dedicated bike trail.

Agreed.

Just about acceptable in that they did just stop in the space they could see. However a bit too much on the dickish side - and a longer stop and apology and a wait for those following would not have gone amiss

He even comments that it's the one blind corner on the route. Yeah, poor example on a shared use trail.

I'd say just unlucky. They stopped in time although a bit of a breather and craic with the walkers would have been in order.

There is more than one "blind corner" on that track and it is a very popular walking trail into the Lairig Ghru. A local bike shop owner has already come in for criticism for knocking over a child cycling up.

Both cases indefensible and (IMO) contrary to Scottish Access Legislation.

About the 8min 10s mark for those not wanting to scrub through the whole video.

It looks a bit quick into the corner to me, but it's hard to really tell from the video. I think his lean angle into the turn possibly makes it look faster and more aggressive than it is.

I guess the fact that he stopped in the available space probably argues for it being appropriate speed, but it looks like squeaky bum time all around and I bet those walkers were fairly well shaken.

Bad example. If its blind either slow down or if its that fun to run fast get someone below as a spotter.

I guess the fact that he stopped in the available space probably argues for it being appropriate speed, but it looks like squeaky bum time all around and I bet those walkers were fairly well shaken.

Yeah, every time I'm cycling on the road and a car/truck/bus passes me with 2cm to spare its just fine because they didn't actually hit me.

Bit of a dick move, especially so given they know the trail (and that it's a blind corner).

irresponsible - buy a less 'capable' bike and ride slower for the same thrill...

I'd go with irresponsible.

guiding down

Hmm. Go ahead slower and let the others ride a clear trail behind you then, maybe? Anyone would have a right to be pissed off at seeing someone have to haul up that quick in front of you - walker, another rider, etc.

Irresponsible IMO knowing full well that the path is going to be in use by walkers of all ages and abilities. A blind bend is exactly that. If you were to ask the same question of anyone who's not a dedicated mountain biker I don't think you'd get a favourable response. And the point for me is how would these riders be perceived by other users of the path? Poor form and ridden with the expectation that others will move off to one side to allow you through.

I like Andy's videos but that one doesn't set a good example.

Out with the spirit of both rule no.1 and Scottish access laws.

It did look a bit too fast, and like they should've spotted the walkers before they disappeared behind the tree.

Then again they did stop. And everyone makes misjudgements, so I'm not going to get too upset/judgemental when nobody's got hurt.

I'd be heartily embarrassed if I had to pull an emergency stop like that to avoid wiping someone out. As a professional guide and organiser of MTB trips I certainly wouldn't want it stuck on Youtube!

3.25 they pass walkers/runners (maybe a bit fast imo) who tell the riders 'you shouldnt be doing that'.

I think the video makes it worse than it is. you can hear braking before the corner. The fact they stopped so quickly shows they couldn't have been going that fast. That said given the corner Ben should have slowed down more before hand

3.25 they pass walkers/runners (maybe a bit fast imo) who tell the riders ‘you shouldnt be doing that’.

Different trail, different conditions. They were maybe going a bit too fast and would have appeared "scary" to anyone else on the path (it's not very wide). I'm not sure that dismissing the criticism out of hand was clever either. Maybe try taking into account a bit?

A bit dickish IMHO. Its shared use, you need to ride accordingly

Ooh, internet judgements, super! The walker seemed ok with it, so I'm ok with it, seeing as I wasn't there or ever will be.

Actually on the first trail, one of the women says "hello" and her friend says "You shouldn't be ...".

Yeah, every time I’m cycling on the road and a car/truck/bus passes me with 2cm to spare its just fine because they didn’t actually hit me.

Point taken, although I'm not sure the two scenarios are entirely comparable.

Anyway, what I was trying to say was that although the rider stopped in time (and hence one might argue that the speed was appropriate for the corner), it looked pretty dicey, and that'd suggest to me that he was going too fast.

Going back to the OP's question: yes, setting a poor example.

The walker seemed ok with it, so I’m ok with it

I’ve nearly been flattened by someone in a car before and we had a brief but very polite and stereotypically English conversation in the immediate aftermath. Doesn’t mean I wasn’t very nearly hospitalised, though, or that I wasn’t replaying and editing the conversation in my head after we parted.

Doing it professionally, you need to be squeaky clean.

Could he stop in the distance he could see to be clear? Yes, just, but was it by luck or judgement? Looks like the first.

Timber Bell for the lead rider might have given the walkers a bit more reaction time but only less speed would have helped the lead rider.

Setting a poor example on a blind corner or by the grace of god go us?

Bit of both, TBH.

Imo I genuinely cannot see any issue here apart from her gob.

Irresponsible and dickish behavior on shared path

Exuberant irresponsibility.

Still: irresponsibility.

Imo I genuinely cannot see any issue here apart from her gob.

Have you read the scottish access code? Your right to cycle on tracks like this is a qualified not absolute right - and the qualification is to behave responsibly

Access rights extend to cycling. Cycling on hard surfaces, such as wide paths and tracks, causes few problems. On narrow routes, cycling may cause problems for other people, such as walkers and horse riders. If this occurs, dismount and walk until the path becomes suitable again. Do not endanger walkers and horse riders: give other users advance warning of your presence and give way to them on a narrow path. Take care not to alarm farm animals, horses and wildlife. If you are cycling off-path,particularly in winter, avoid: •going onto wet, boggy or soft ground; and•churning up the surface.CYCLING>Scottish Outdoor Access Code, 2005

I’ve nearly been flattened by someone in a car before and we had a brief but very polite and stereotypically English conversation in the immediate aftermath

Oh yeah, definitely wouldn't be happy with a car on the Cairngorm trail. That'd be well wrong.

Andrew went past that gobshite woman slowly. Struggling to see what danger the riders posed to her.

Personally knowing it was a blind and shared corner I’d not have gone around it at any speed. I’d rather be safe than sorry.

Too fast and always expect the unexpected. It is after all primarily a walkers trail.
Although it is a cracker on the bike and should be familiar from this months front cover 😉

oo fast and always expect the unexpected. It is after all a trail.
Although it is a cracker on the bike and should be familiar from this months front cover

FTFY

Poah - I would have slowed more than that but I don't see much wrong with the pass at 3mins+ I tend to slow to walking pace in that sort of circumstance - practice " polite cycling"

Ah we've all done it! I'd be worried that the encounter at 8mins is the sort of thing that causes the attitude exhibted at 3mins

Bit naughty on that bit of track, would have given them a bit of a fright when they appeared round the corner that quickly. I ride that bit quite frequently and am very careful having been hit by a rider coming down it when I was running ! So , you’re guiding so should be advance sweeping to ensure it’s clear and safe. It’s a reasonably busy route.

I’d be worried that the encounter at 8mins is the sort of thing that causes the attitude exhibted at 3mins

Yep, plus it impacts on the local riders that use it regularly and who have been trying to sweeten things in the area by carrying out various bits of trail maintenance.

As it happens I have cucled many times up north off onto Scottish isles and mainland but not for a while now.

I am aware of the right to roam etc.
Cheers

Well if you are aware how can you not see that this is right on the edge if not over it? Right to roam is not an unqualified right like riding on bridleways in england

"don't be a dick"

Hi guys,
Thanks for your comments.

Just a couple of points:

1. The video cut after we stopped and restarted when we left. We did infact have a friendly chat and apologised to the walkers for scaring them. They laughed it off and said they were glad I had good brakes!

2. It's hard to judge speed from a video - and I find it strange that everyone is so proficient at this. I wasn't going very fast. I stopped well within 1 bike length. Go out and see how slow you have to be riding to stop that quickly.

3. I've guided well over a million vertical metres of descent on natural trails over more than a decade and neither myself or anyone in any group I've guided has ever hit a walker. That speaks for itself in terms of appropriate speed and guiding style.

4. If I thought I was in the wrong - I would be embarrassed and apologise. Did those walkers get startled - no doubt - but if you have honestly never startled a walker while out riding, then you obviously don't ride shared trails as much as I do. I came to a complete stop in time - I didn't have to evade the walkers... just braked and stopped in time.

Cheers,
Ben

That’s nice. How many near misses like that have you had ?
I’m still of the opinion that on that part of the trail you shouldn’t be having to do emergency stops like that.

I’ve guided well over a million vertical metres of descent on natural trails over more than a decade

That would be a ride with 1000m of descent every 3 days for a decade if I can still count on my fingers and toes so sounds a bit hyperbolic.

I am glad to hear that you did stop and chat with the walkers - that was not evident from the video. that lessons the offense for me.

As per the general consensus on here tho you were right on the edge if not over it of the access code. And in more than 2 decades of riding in Scotland I have never startled a walker out in the hills. If you accept you startled the walkers then by a strict interpretation of the access code you were outside of its provisions.

This is not an example of responsible access. Neither are the bits going off the edge of the clearly defined made up path onto softer ground during the earlier descent.

Looked ok to me ..and no harm done ..and didn't look particularly fast on that corner as the stopping distance proved ..

It's all very well to point the finger and say it's irresponsible but who can say they have never been in that situation? If I was riding that track I would be going a lot slower because I my skills are worse, I old and a bit cautious and my bike is a lot less capable. It's very easy to get caught up in the moment.

Tjagain: Or riding approximately 25000m vertical a week in the Alps every week of the summer season (12 weeks) for more than a decade. So it's a low estimate, not hyperbole.

This is why maybe you shouldn't judge based on a video.

NZcol - What's nice? Why the sarcasm? I'm trying to seriously address people's concerns here. No need for that. To answer your question. It's extremely rare that something like this happens. My speed was appropriate and I was under complete control as evidenced by coming to a complete stop so quickly. You cannot judge this either way from a video. All that is very clear is that I stopped within a bike length so must have being travelling slower than you imagine.

And as I said...

Yeah, every time I’m cycling on the road and a car/truck/bus passes me with 2cm to spare its just fine because they didn’t actually hit me.

OK Ben - I thought you meant that in Scotland.

ok confession time.
I once had to poop on the side of an alpine trail. I tried to bury it but honestly it was like trying to bury water. I’m not proud of it but there you go.

Compared to that misdemeanour, the above crime of riding through a cool landscape without hitting any walkers seems very minor therefore I will NOT be judging anyone here. Maybe think about that a bit, team.

Ben - what I would like you to do is not be too defensive - and I thank you for coming on here to explain. However I would like you to reflect a bit on this. Scotland is unique in the world in its access rights and many folk are concerned that some folk seem to think its an absolute right to ride the trails. Its not. Its qualified by being responsible and many of us feel that this is verging on if not irresponsible.

So please - don't be all defensive, be reflective. "what could I have done differently? How can I avoid that happening again?"

(It was like trying to bury water in *granite and moss* )

You stop, chat and there's no problem?

No problem 🙂

The biggest lesson here is probably for whoever uploaded the video: that it's unwise to edit a video so that the controversial bit is left in and the actually-we-all-got-along fine bit is left out and then upload it to YouTube so that it can get picked up by people on the web. (Not just on mountain biking forums, but—probably more importantly—walking forums etc.)

🙂

(It does look alarmingly close on the video, though—regardless of how it looked in the moment.)

Tjagain: I'm of course on board with what you say about Scotland and it's unique access rights and responsibilities. My defensiveness is based on not believing that's it's possible to judge what's appropriate speed or not based on a video.

Reflect on what exactly? Riding at a speed that allows me to stop in time if someone is round the corner? Reflect on not hitting a walker because I was in full control? I'm not having a go at you here - I just fail to understand what I should be reflecting upon?

Arf! I reckon I got it spot on 😂

I’m not having a go at you here – I just fail to understand what I should be reflecting upon?

That "not hitting a walker" isn't the same thing as "leaving adequate margin for error"? (viz the "passed at 2cm, didn't get hit" analogy)

The issues here are that "adequate margin for error" is somewhat subjective and that videos may or may not be adequate material from which to assess a margin.

You should be reflecting on why for many of us that is not responsible access. Passing walkers at speed earlier, riding off the side of the built path, scaring those walkers. All 3 things are marginal at best

For example - in the situation at 3 odd mins with the grumpy walker - I would have passed them at walking pace or even stopped to let them past. I would not have been going into that blind corner at the speed you did - yes you did stop in time but it was a close call and unneeded.

So reflect on why some folk are upset at your actions.

also the point that is it OK that a car passes you with a few cm to spare - its OK 'cos you didn't hit hit them? Would it be OK for a car to cause you to dive out of the way on road if it didn't hit you?

Please just reflect a bit on it. Maybe you will then be able to see the point that some of us are making.

Its not the worst example I have seen by a long way. However it was unneeded. A bit slower and it would have been no issue.

A mountain bike video AND an opportunity for judgement. I think this one is going to roll and roll.
I thought it was ok, I see a lot worst on the roads with car drivers pretty much every time I go out on my bike.
I also don't think they were going that fast, but on a blind corner I'd probably ding my bell on the way down and take it slow.

For example – in the situation at 3 odd mins with the grumpy walker – I would have passed them at walking pace or even stopped to let them past.

They were miles away and going slow - Do you stop or slow down when you ride on the road and you pass a someone on the pavement?

and that videos may or may not be adequate material from which to assess a margin.

Good reason to accept what Ben says then and not keep blathering on about what you judge from the video (not you personally, Bez)

Miles away? what a metre or a bit more? I practice polite cycling as I call it. Being super polite and giving loads of room and obviously giving way. Thats the way I roll. Its about giving a good impression.

What to us seems loads of room is not to many walkers. Therefore I give not the amount of room an MTBer aware of the capabilities of the bikes deem sufficient, I give the amount of room that makes it clear I am giving way to walkers - all in the name of good PR

They were miles away and going slow – Do you stop or slow down when you ride on the road and you pass a someone on the pavement?

Yeah, I'd be looking to see that they had seen me and didn't look to be doing anything rash (you know the type - jump across to the other side of the path in a blind panic  🙂  ) and then crack on as normal. Grumpy girls pal didn't seem too bothered. Probably a biker 🙂 .

Access rights extend to cycling. Cycling on hard surfaces, such as widepaths and tracks, causes few problems. On narrow routes, cycling may cause problems for other people, such as walkers and horse riders. If this occurs, dismount and walk until the path becomes suitable again. Do not endanger walkers and horse riders: give other users advance warning of your presence and give way to them on a narrow path. Take care not to alarm farm animals, horses and wildlife. If you are cycling off-path, particularly in winter, avoid:

•going onto wet, boggy or soft ground; and
•churning up the surface.

The sarcasm is beacause I was hit almost in exactly the same point on that track by someone doing pretty much what you were doing. Going round what’s essentially a blind corner like that on a track that has known conflict issues isnt smart. Defend all you want , you’re the pro after all but frankly you should be buttoning off until further down when the sight lines are better. As you said yourself you guide on shared trails and you bear the responsibility of doing so in a responsible manner, having to slam on the brakes and startle walkers on a shared trail is not responsible. Have I don’t it ? Yes historically and I ride a lot of shared trails and am very careful for exactly that reason. If you want to do stuff like that go to a trail centre.

Given the skid marks and brake squeal are clearly seen on the video you have an unusual interpretation of "well within 1 bike length".

Those walkers should obviously have realised he was in full control. There was no need for the alarmed expressions and jumping off the path, just makes it look worse than it was.

The stoppie was plainly just showing off.

Good reason to accept what Ben says then and not keep blathering on about what you judge from the video (not you personally, Bez)

Well, it’s easy to judge from the video that the walkers saw fit to get out of the way quickly when faced with a skidding bike heading straight towards them.

The video may or may not be great for judging margin of error in terms of measurable criteria, but people evacuating the trail in that way is telling.

I realise no anaology is perfect, but if you saw a video of someone on a bike nearly being hit by a driver you might not be able to easily judge how close it was, but if the rider saw fit to bail out onto the verge while the vehicle skidded to a halt you’d know enough.

The fact that these walkers were apparently not too bothered is sheer luck. Plenty of other people would have a markedly different reaction.

It’s well known that Scottish access rights are a sovereign privilege. This may change after brexit - no one knows yet.

What amazes me on those trails is the lack of people in general maybe not a good thing as you might tend to go to fast nice video though.

MTB riders shown as selfish. Much as many in society, except we are relying on the goodwill of others for our access rights. Think on, in this instance tj is spot on.

+copied for posterity+

What amazes me on those trails is the lack of people in general maybe not a good thing as you might tend to go to fast nice video though.

The second of the three is at Badaguish and is a trail I've never seen a walker on. They were built for mountain biking. There is a tacit agreement between the landowner and bikers that trail development can continue as long as it's done responsibly.

As always the basic rules are don’t be a dick and don’t ride off the trail (yeah, the rider in front is being a knob by riding off the trail earlier in the video).

Reminds me of a thread from last year.

https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/how-to-get-mass-participation-cycling-events-banned-tossers/&ved=2ahUKEwiV1-39q7rjAhWDTRUIHdVJCY4QFjAAegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw02AhJCIyBcJNnZubtEXAgj&cshid=156331123596 8">Triathlete horse thread

Seems it's much worse to scare a horse in a triathlon than nearly plough into a group of walkers on a mountain bike. But of course Triathletes are tossers.

Thanks for the comments guys.
I'll bow out of this now - I'm not an active user here - but decided to take the time to put my POV across. We'll be going round in circles from now on.