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Well damn, what do you want us to rely on? Trust you local LBS opinion?
Fair enough, and no - I'd certainly not recommend you listen to us, we all have vested interests. Although we do tell the truth!
Ultimately, as others have said, these are all good bikes and will make you smile.
My comments weren't aimed directly at you. I'm advocating trying bikes out and people deciding for themselves, rather than relying on what someone they don't know, says. We invest a lot of money in demo bikes so that people can do just that. I do realise that it's not always practical for everyone, though.
To give an example of the sort of thing I was expressing dismay about - we've had customers stood in the shop, interested in a bike, but rather than taking it for a free test ride themselves, want to go home and read about what other people online think about it. That seems like a shame to me and not the best way to decide whether a bike is right for you.
Rickon: you've got me there.. had to go check out the picture I took, yes they are identical(ish) & so maybe Orange can't get it any shorter.
Drovercycles, fair enuff, but we all like to have our ego's stroked, and have the in-crowd agree with out every move (apparently)
we've had customers stood in the shop, interested in a bike, but rather than taking it for a free test ride themselves
That's just down right stupid on there part... and you should have bitch slapped them until the took you up on your free test ride 😈
PS: I did love the local Santa Cruz dealer telling me that I couldn't want a slack 29er, because SC designers didn't make one, and they're the experts, so couldn't be wrong could they? I sighed inwardly, smiled and left..
Yes, I'm pretty sure the Segment has the same forward shifted (at the BB) seat tube as the Alpine Five. That's why the chainstays are 6mm shorter than on the Gyro and why they now quote an Actual and an Effective seat angle.
NM: I agree with you about the simplicity of the HT, although I've never found adjusting the shock on an Orange to be much of a big deal as it is just sitting there right in front of you. It does tend to put me off those designs where the shock is mounted vertically down by the BB though.
Thanks RP. Yes, the Camber has the shock mounted under the tt but with the lever facing the ground which is not ideal (imho) for that on the fly adjusting.
That is only one of the issues though if being fair.
Maybe it is more that the Solaris* is the bike I'm looking for but just don't like stopping searching!
*I would have also considered a Stanton Sherpa at time of purchase but always wanted to own a Cotic. I'd also love to see Cotic fs 29er!
Considering the other options on offer, that hardly seems a squeeze (2.25 tyre), but fair enough if you've seen it in the flesh.
Skinny little tyre with a low profile tread pattern, it should look lost in there.
By the time you put a decent rear tyre on it, and build up some wider rims, it's going to be useless.
But then I said elsewhere, with Evil's legendary reliability record & customer services, whether a tyre fits or not is the least of your worries.
Z1ppy, I went with the Spitfire in the end as I'd mentioned in my original post. I just wasn't comfortable having to run a skinny low profile tyre on the rear of the bike. Other than that I'd have bought one.
It's not like I'm unaware of the Evil history, but they seem to be trying to make a good go of it, hardly the 1st bike related company to bump and then be re-invented?
Ardent 2.25 skinny? Not so convinced but then I don't need a anything bigger than a 2.3 but fair points all of them..
But what would you suggest? (120mm slack 29er..), as I say I am happy to have my opinion changed by a good discussion. I'm not 100% for the Evil, otherwise I'd have a deposit down and not be asking here...
Edit: Apologies ultimateweevil.. I must have missed that, unfortunately not an option I'm considering,, now if I could just test a Phantom.... [url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagggghhhhh ]but we've been there already[/url]
Sorry more curve balls! Before you make your mind up see if you can get a ride on an On-one Codeine, I tried orange (too flexy) for a big lad like me, Kona process 110 ace but not enough travel as it encourages you to get into trouble, tried Codeine- SORTED twas the one for me. Climbs well not the fastest to the top (that could be me)flies along the singletrack on the top, then point it down, MY WORD hold on tight its gonna get mad!! Descends like a downhill bike!! I know I'm biased but two of my riding buddies have ridden it and both have since pushed the buy button
120mm max travel Konanige, I don't need or want more.... Codine and any other with more than 120mm travel are not being considered.
Evil's previous issues never bothered me as they promised to sort out the issues with one of their bikes for all owners and as far as I know they did so that was a plus point for me and the owner Kevin was really approachable and happy to exchange emails about the bike, previous issues and helped suggest a couple of builds I was thinking of at the time.
Out of the ones you've ridden what have you genuinely liked the best?
I'm suggesting the Banshee purely from the point of view I own the Spitfire in 650b guise and I bloody love it and doubt that the Phantom will ride much differently.
The Segment, but I've only actually ridden the T-129/M-109/Gyro/Segment (& Spesh Enduro for a bit of a laugh). I'd test ride the Phantom (& Evil) if I could but can't locate a dealer close by (300 mile round trip to Edinburgh isn't on the cards) but off-hand the idea of the "substantial" frame weight put me off (no ones actually saying how much it weighs).
Weight's relative IMO, get the build right and I don't think you'd notice a couple of pounds.
Why don't you find out if there are ant stockists of Banshee and Evil nearer you and see if they have demo bikes or ask your LBS if they can get one in as don't the distributors sometimes have demo bikes they can get to shops?
[url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagggghhhhh ]have done...[/url] & though I do have an 'new' local Evil stockist, a demo bike will be a long to coming
Bummer really, I didn't test ride my Spitty if that helps. But then I knew exactly what I wanted geo wise and ride style so it made it easy. I'd of had to travel 300 miles round trip to demo one too.
If you can't get a demo on one and you're not sure about buying something without riding it then I'd go with the Segment since you liked that the best or hold of for a bit if you have something to ride just now.
Sorry Z1ppy, I came from a 160mm travel Kona Coilair so 130mm Codeine didn't seem long travel to me, I just went for the stiffness the short chainstays and acres of mudroom round a 2.3 tyre, ! x 11 was a concern but grew on me instantly, you can get up some serious speed even with a 30 tooth out front.
To answer your question, yes I've seen one and that's what put me off as I was pretty much all set to buy the Evil. Normally I like to run a 2.3 TK or HR2 on my bikes and I don't want to be squeezing a tyre in the rear and then have little mud clearance particularly give how bloody wet Scotland is most of the time
Fair enough
I'm in the "2.25 is big enough for a rear tyre" camp myself, that and I can tell you that a wet west of England is generally more of a muddy mess than anywhere I've ridden in Scotland, and with that in mind, if it's filthy outside I've got a HT to pull out of the shed instead. I was very glad the clearance is a lot better than it is on the Uprising though, cos I remember seeing the first lot of Uprisings and being very impressed, but we're talking fag paper clearance on the rear tyre! I've got 650b full sus bikes in my shop that have got less tyre clearance (with a similar 2.25" tyre on) than the Evil, so I'm really not too worried. I'm not saying it couldn't be better, but then again there's hardtails I wanted to own (Cotic Solaris being one) that I ruled out due to poor tyre clearance, and the Evil IMO has enough.
Time will tell though, cos I'm putting my money where my mouth is!
have done... & though I do have an 'new' local Evil stockist, a demo bike will be a long to coming
I can guarantee you that the day it arrives, it will be built up, photographed, pics slung all over facebook and this forum, and you'll be jealous! 😉
Besides... Your definition of "a long time" is rather unfair! Bet I get one in before you get a job! 😆
The Segment uses a 165x38mm shock, right? Does anybody know why Orange seem to have dropped the Cane Creek DBinline shock option? It looks ideally suited to this bike.
There were some issues with CCDBinlines when high shock pressures were needed (and made worse by certain suspension designs) leading to loss of rebound damping. Don't know if the segment would be affected but I think Mojo were advising people on 5s not to fit them if they needed to run over 200-220psi in the can. This is from memory so could well be wrong.
If it helps make your mind up the CCDBinline works perfectly on the Phantom, even with my weight (14st before gear) sat on it. 🙂
There was definitely an issue early on, iirc they suggested a rider weight limit until a fix was put in place. Haven't heard say after that, just actually asking my lb's about the phantom, & if the inline Is suitable for me (lots more than 14 stone... errr kitted up obviously)
Just checked and it was 230psi shock pressure and advice from TFTuned not Mojo. It also seemed to be more applicable to single pivot designs. Given the teeny tiny stroke of the shock on the segment it may be that the pressures required for manly men are just too high for the current CCDB inline incarnation.
The difference from Monarch to CCDBinline on the phantom was night and day. In comparison (and using CCDB terms as a reference point) the Monarch had too much HSC and not enough HSR going down and not enough LSC and LSR going up when open and too much when in trail mode. I used the climb switch/CTD lever equivalent on both shocks a lot. The CCDB wins hands down in every regard to the point where I'm not sure I would want to ride a bike that didn't have an equivalent performing shock on now.
Shackleton, have you tried all three drop-out positions on your Phantom? I ran my Spitfire mostly in neutral last year, going slack for away trips to faster more open trails, which worked great. After a stint on my hardtail due to the mud I got the Spitfire out on Thursday and put it in steep mode - bloody brilliant change of personality, more nimble pedally trail bike with more clearance for our very tight, narrow and twisty, root, rut and logstacle strewn singletrack.
Amazing how much difference a degree in the angles and 12mm of BB height makes to a bike. It's like having two bikes in one - and a halfway house for when you're undecided!
Chiefgroovegure - I left it in neutral until just after new year when the desire to tinker took hold.
Some of the rockier trail climbs round here were a bit easier to deal with in the high position but I didn't notice a huge difference in the trees (but they aren't that narrow and twisty). Definitely felt faster handling and more "XC" though.
On the local DH course the slack position was amazing. Glued down through corners and so stable.
Having largely ignored the 3 settings so far I can see me swapping for each ride now...........
Thanks for the comments on the CCDBinline. At 11 and a half stone in my birthday suit I'm not too bothered about the weight limit, although I can see why Orange might not want to suggest that there is a weight limit on any of their options. Maybe it's one of those options that's not advertised but still there if you want it. If not there are still two versions of the FOX CTD to choose from if you don't fancy the Monarch.
I was going to try to arrange a demo of the Segment, but the guys who sorted out the demo of the Gyro for me no longer deal with Orange. Basically they weren't selling. As they put it, despite being good bikes, "the only people who seem to buy Orange bikes are people who already own one" , which isn't a great long term business model.
[sitsonfence]I can empathise and sympathise with a lot of what's been said[/sitsonfence]
I've owned a Solaris for 2 and a half years now and it became my go to bike. It's now my only bike, having sold my Yeti ASR5C last year (it had gone unused since Aug 13 after a crash in the Alps left me off the bike for 6 months).
The Solaris is a great bike and I found during the latter part of my Yeti ownership that I wanted it to have bigger wheels. I also began to find that I could ride everything I could on the Solaris that I could on the Yeti. Granted, some bits slower but they could be ridden all the same.
So, I decided I wanted a 29er FS to complement the Solaris. A bike that would take the best attributes of the Yeti with those of the Solaris. Carbon, slack, low, etc, etc. The bike I identified 'based on numbers' was the Stumpy Expert Carbon Evo.
I enjoyed the test ride, I liked the bike but…I wasn't sold enough to buy the bike. It should have been 'the' bike on paper but wasn't. So it's not always about the numbers. Although this is often what you initially base your shortlist on.
So I'm still in the market for a short to mid travel 29er FS. I like the look of the Banshee Phantom but I'd prefer a carbon frame and the weight concerns me. The Evil The Following has potential. Hopefully I'll get to test both in the next few months although Shropshire or Edinburgh seem to be the closest dealers.
I am hoping to try (a lot of) others though and have signed up to the Leisure Lakes demo at Cannock in March. It's a bit of a drive and I'd prefer to demo bikes on familiar trails but it's hard to turn down the chance to ride and compare the Orange Segment, Alpine Five, Intense Spider, Carbine 29, Trek Remedy 29, Specialized Camber Evo, Enduro 29 and Yeti ASRc.
I'm just hoping the last 12 plus months of riding the Solaris and the long list of bikes does not confuse things.
To be honest, the Evil ticks a lot of boxes and I've already written a lot of bikes off based on numbers, reviews, cost of ownership, is it overkill, etc, etc yet I might be proved wrong with a test ride. Looking forward to finding out 🙂
So I'm still in the market for a short to mid travel 29er FS
Well, I'd take the Alpine Five, Remedy, Enduro, Carbine 29 off your list then as they're all long travel bikes.
If you're more than happy on the Solaris, then those will be overkill in general. This coming from someone who owns and Alpine Five, and it has a hugely sorted geometry.
I like the look of the Banshee Phantom but I'd prefer a carbon frame and the weight concerns me
It really shouldn't, unless you're racing XC then weight doesn't really matter that much at all.
But if it does matter for you, you'll want to knock a few more off that list too.
This is the problem rickon.
Some bikes might be overkill for 60% of the riding that I do yet that doesn't stop me from wanting one. In particular the Alpine Five. It's reportedly heavy. It's definitely overkill yet having owned a Five and was considering testing a Five29 then it's worth a spin surely? It perhaps might be the bike that suits the 40% for big days in the Lakes, Scotland and trips abroad.
The Remedy, I'd go carbon. Although on paper I'm concerned about reach and the short top tube.
Carbine, a long bike apparently but no longer than an Alpine Five.
On paper there's a lot I should drop from the list but I might be proven wrong by riding them. Although really, a 29er with 140mm front and up to 140mm rear should be more than enough.
The Yeti ASRc looks to be almost what I wanted the ASR5c to be yet it's perhaps too XC orientated and would I regret not going for something with more travel. Probably. But worth a spin too while I've got the chance.
TBH, the Phantom and Following are top of the list but I'm hoping to be surprised by other bikes. Hell I'm tempted to retry the Stumpy evo again.
The Alpine Five is a seriously slack long travel 29er - way more bike than your ASR5C.
Regarding the Phantom, my two bikes are a Soul (my sole MTB from early 2011 to early 2014) and a Spitfire 27.5 (main MTB since early 2014). I still love the Soul but the Spitfire is quicker in every direction, despite being a burly build and thus about 4lbs heavier. It's a ridiculously efficient pedaller and unstoppable downhill. The Phantom should be even quicker uphill.
If you like riding all in weathers you'll appreciate Banshee's approach to tyre clearance - it's far better than most full-sus frames. And the adjustable geometry is fantastic - go slack for the trips to the big gnarly trails, steep for more XC stuff and in between when undecided.
z1ppy.
In the time you've been procrastinating you could have bought a DH bike and got fit enough to ride it round our trails or bought a cross bike an got enough skills to ride it round our trails.
Go to the pub have a few beers, roll up a five sheet construction, chuff it as fast as you can then just ramdomly [b]BUY A NEW ****ING BIKE ANY BIKE WILL DO JUST GET IT OVER AND DONE WITH[/b]
8)
The Alpine Five is a hugely capable bike. I was a 29er sceptic but bought an Alpine to replace my 26" Five and the Alpine is just so much better.
Definitely worth putting one on the list to try.
Shsss now stu, don't need that kind of sensible comment on my waffle-mongous thread. Rickon harshing my mellow as it was with his somethingion of a fellow travellers path to righteousness*
TBF I never been in the position of spending so much or wanted to.. so I want the 'right' one, a keeper. Hardly a rush, as this is primarily a summer bike. Following or Phantom, seems to be the options for me... I think
*he's not wrong though
I think
A little too much.
Have you considered 29+/650b+. 😆
If you think this is bad, talk to Mark he's bored to death of me, & go away with you now, 650b, 6 ****en 50 b, I only follow one out of date marketing fad at a time.
I've been riding an Alpine Five for about 10 months now, it is an awesomely capable bike. However, I wouldn't buy one if the vast majority of my riding wasn't pointing down steep scary stuff, or hitting DH trails.
That's not to take anything away from the AF, it's by a long way the best bike I've ridden - and in the past 5 years I must of ridden over 30 MTBs. But it's a slack, heavy, big and long bike.
I demo'ed the Remedy, and that felt just a bit XC to me - which may well be more suitable - but it's still a long travel bike, when if you on't need that extra travel it wont feel as perky. I'd also advise against the Remedy, based on the stupid rear axle, and knowing friends who have snapped them in multiple places (this is the 2015 model), could be bad luck, but that's my experience.
That Intense Carbine is a bit short in the ETT - and the large is bloody massive in the ETT. Same for the reach, if you feel the Alpine Five / Segement is too short in a medium, then the Intense will be too short in the medium. Plus it's a 160mm 29er (At the front).
If it were me, I'd be demo'ing the Following, and then having a good look at what tyres and rims fit in that back end without rubbing. There's not much out there that does what the Following looks to do - carbon, 29er, slack, long, low, medium travel.
There is a new canfield 29er coming which may be worth a look if not in a hurry. Due march I believe.
is there actually any info out, about the Riot? Can't watch the video (content unavailable) and MTBR thread is just full of yahoo's saying how great it's gunna be*.. with seemingly no idea of any details (hey's it's MTBR, so that's normal).
"Full Riot details to be released this spring with frames due to ship late summer, 2015."
Summer is too far away to wait..
EDIT: Where've you got March from ?
*There 29er HT's are pretty damned fine