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I started writing this the other day, then later came across this review of the Banshee Phantom, which basically sums up everything I’m going to try and say without my rambling blather.. so if INGRATS pops into your head as you look at my post, just read this link instead and take the salient points away.. (yes I know it’s not the same type of suspension but the major points are the same)
http://www.bikemag.com/videos/banshee-phantom-2015-bible-bike-tests/
I taking my cue’s from Roverpig’s Gyro review, this post..
http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/orange-gyro-test-warning-29er-content
[b]“I figure that there is a gap in the market for the views of a talentless idiot.”[/b] and like RP, I enjoy rambling on about mountain bikes & my thoughts on them, a little too much and without as much analysis (& maybe a bit too much “me, me, me”)
You can read a review from Guy @ flowmtb’s on the Segment , for a more informed less talent-less rider, if you want: http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/new-segment-on-its-way
I mailed him lately for an update and he still very happy with it but isn’t keen with the 140mm up front and was just waiting for the air spring to reduce some pikes to 120mm & also notes the lack of rear tyre clearance
Quick synopsis: 29er’s with slack head angles are a riot & this is a monster truck of a bike
Background (or excuses): I’ve not been in full time work for while, so this purchase has been a long time coming & meant I’ve had far too long to lusting and over thinking about what bike I want next.
I am biased badly towards single pivots full suspension bikes, having ridden one or another since 2003ish, but have never owned an Orange MTB surprisingly. I was lured away to a 29er hardtail due to the crap weather we’ve had over the last couple of years, it just made more sense and the 29er wheels felt right to me. I am also a fan of slacker geometry bikes, I’m never going to get any climbing KOM’s, so the downs are more important (fun) to me. After getting my Prophet out again last year, the 26er wheel felt just wrong to me, so my unused 26ers all going (slowly). My 29er hardtail is a 120mm Whyte 929 with a slack head angle and adjustable chainstays. So I ‘needed‘/‘want’ a short(ish) travel fun 29er full suss to match.
As mentioned I’m not the world greatest rider, don’t do jumps, have to know a drop to be confident in doing it, and have a general steam roller attitude to lines so don’t need a lot of travel but wanted a bit more than 100mm.
I managed to get a decent test ride on a Whyte T-129S and have had demo day rides, on the Gyro, Whyte M-109, and Specialized Enduro (& the Segment). All very good bikes, the Gyro being the most surprising, being as I rode it to see how much better the Whyte’s/Spesh had been, & came away thinking it was a great bike.
The Whyte T-129 is a also a fantastic bike, lovely and light, all the right angle and a lovely short chainstays. Unfortunately I really don’t get on with 4-bar suspension, it’s too magic carpet like (a very throw away comment but I’ve tried quite a few new and old, there all the same to me), I just didn’t ‘click’ with it. Which is more than a little annoying, as there cheap as chips really, & very capable.
..So I liked the Gyro, why? Well on the short demo ride, it handled no better or worse than the others, but climbed like a mountain goat. When climbing it felt like the rear axle tucked in towards the BB, pushing the seat up and fork into the floor, it cleared the worst line on the last climb without an fuss, nothing they others had come close to & was my ever favourite single pivot design. I should have just bought a gyro then? Well no, I really wanted a slacker bike, so was torn and then they released the Segment not long after...
So back in October I toddled down to Afan to try the Segment on another demo day.. I was knackered and didn’t enjoy the experience though I blame myself for being tired and not taking the time to set the seat height and suspension up better (I just wanted to ride!). The bike just felt heavy up that long winding climb, and after a similar experience on the T-129, realised later that the previous rider had just twiddled the suspension settings seemingly randomly, so coming back down was no fun either.
One of my LBS’s then managed to pull out a 3 day demo of the Whyte T-129 for me. Cheers to Mboy and the Whyte rep Neil, you might not have liked the result, but it saved me buying a bike I wouldn’t have enjoyed. This left me back at square one.. what bike to buy?
Cash in the bank, so I got a demo lined up for the Segment this last weekend (the local Banshee dealer sold his test bike!) to give it a 2nd chance or fairer test, but as is normal for the disaster zone that is my life, I came down with the lurgy on Friday. Throat a mess and coughing, followed by more snot than should be physically possible and a hack cough on sat/sun. The weather had being going so well too, frozen trail earlier in the week, now thawing into a fudge like sludge. DOH!
The demo bike, a large in Pro spec with a dropper post and upgrade stem/wide wide bars & a hans dampf (trailstar) front tyre. I managed to get out on it three times, all on local trails I know well. I can’t emphasise how much easier it is to learn/test a bike without worrying about what round the next corner or how big that hill actually is (hence my reluctant to travel to try the Banshee Phantom very kindly offered by Gee). Maybe you can get on a bike and push it to its limits straight away, even on unfamiliar trails, but for me it about settling in and gradually pushing further every ride.
Initial thoughts, “bleeding hell this is long and low”. A really long wheelbase & the wheel at the end of the swinging arm is miles back there & how stupidly wide are those bars? I’ve no idea of the reach on my Whyte HT (actually a medium with a long TT but not quite as long as most of my previous bikes) but this thing felt like it had miles of TT and those wide bars extenuated it. It’s no light weight either, but we all knew that was coming, I mean have you ever tried picked up a filing cabinet? With lurgy enhanced wheezing I climbed up to the local trails, it got there without much fuss but hardly flew up. Once up, you must come down, and this is where the magic started. Instant though that “ohhh that fun”, though the mud on flat bits did suck the momentum up quickly. I’ve spent most of my cycling on FS’ers (i came to ‘back’ to cycling late) but have ridden the 29er HT basically solidly for the last two years The Whyte is a great bike, but once the going gets wet I don’t have much confidence in what the rear end will do. There I was, back again enjoying sodden (descending) trails that would have left my asshole puckering on the HT, it’s been far too long since I had a full susser I actually wanted to ride.
I emailed Chipps (I like randomly emailing ppl!) about the Gyro vs Segment but he’d replied that he’s not had much chance to ride it but didn’t feel there was a significant weight difference. I’m not so sure myself, I’d suggest the Segment a much burlier frame & feels heavier for it, but my rides were a good 10 months apart, completely different trail conditions & there slacker front end is never going to help climbing ability.
This does bring up an interesting point (to me) about the Gyro, which has IIRC a really low feeling front end, and felt ace for it. The Segment had a 10° rise 50mm stem, spacer under the stem and small rise on the bars, so maybe has the potential for the same low feeling with no spacers, a flat bar and 0 rise stem (maybe shorten to 35mm too). I’ve noted that Chipps seemed to run his long term Gyro with 140mm forks (as per the original Orange max fork listings, that then changed), though Guy (flowmtb) make the point that he not keen on the Segment with 140’s fitted. Maybe that’s all down to those small difference in the stems & spacers and riser bar. Anyhows, I think the Gyro was a great bike but ppl simply didn’t get how good a medium travel 29er was, but I think it might be improved by the addition of an angleset. The question is, will it do to the climbing ability?
OK, so you all thinking, another heavy Orange, well maybe it’s no light weight but it’s not actually that heavy but I was under the weather, & had been used to riding a nice light HT. Really I don’t think it’s any worse than any other (30lb-ish) FS bike, it’s just my circumstances colouring my views . If you pick the bike up, it a substantial lump of metal but on the flat or a down slope, it doesn’t feel heavy nor did I have issues accelerating upto a cruising speed. As per the stw & other magazine reviews I’ve seen, on the flat it pedalled along really well, you don’t notice that weight. Let’s compare it to my Gemini, now that is a lump and half of heavy metal (though probably weigh a very similar weight), and you know about it all the time, even on the flat. The main issue with the Gemini was that gravity would suck at it & getting rid of the momentum was an scary, no matter how hard you braked (yes I know you shouldn’t lock up to stop), the damned thing would just slide towards the edge of some precipice scaring me to death. The Segment does not have any uncontrollable gravity induced foibles, so isn’t ‘that’ heavy but then it’s never going to be light either and even equipped with a full lightweight carbon spec sheet (& you’d have wasted a shite load of cash & bought the wrong bike). I think also the lower slung frame helps loads to, allowing it be more manoeuvrable than it's overall lenght/weight suggests. The Rockshox rear shock lock did what it‘s supposed to, so you did get up the road without any bob induced power loss, just not at in any rush. I was surprised how well the bike did pedal though, obviously there is some bob, unless locked out, but it used (up to) the first third of travel to suck up the lumps and bumps without feeling that the sucking up all your forward momentum.
Did I mention it's was fun when pointed downhill, oh boy oh boy, was it fun. If anything this test ride has reinforced the fact that I ‘want’ a slack 29er FS, it was just brilliant fun. I could try and wax lyrically about this but simply for me, I came away with the thought, there are a lot of very capable bikes in the this market, but for me if it ain’t got a head angle of 68degree or less, I’m not interested and no longer considering them.
I will quickly mentioned gearing, how the **** do you guy running a 32T up front actually get any where without spinning your legs at a million miles an hour? Good god, this is what gears were invented for, maybe you don’t, but I have miles of canals to traverse between trails, and the idea of spinning madly up and down them seems daft. Though looking for a (ramped) 34T now seems impossible to locate and this is Oranges maximum recommended size up front.
Off-road climbing, no it’s no Gyro but that not to suggest it’s bad either. I would have cleared my test short and sharp climb, and only didn’t because I was tired and wandered off the trail in to the undergrowth. This on it’s first attempt, in far from perfect conditions, when I’ve only managed it once on the HT in 2 years, as it’s a very tricky section.
The biggest issue with this bike for me, are the short stroke shock, I was running it very high pressure and though a large lad, the ‘29er’ has been marketed as a larger lads ‘ideal’. I also did think it maybe not the greatest performing bit of kit, but I am a fox shock fan.
The rear tyre clearance is definitely on the small size, it came fitted with a Conti Mtn King 2.2 and I could not fit my (fat) little finger between the tyre and chainstays. A real surprise, ok for the summer but if you use it all year? I’m not a huge fan of massively wide tyre for general trail riding, so it wouldn’t bother me too much
Other thoughts:
RP Quote: “The biggest turn-off for me with the Segment (and the Gyro before it) is the longer chainstays (compared with, say, a Whyte T129 or a Kona Process). People who ride 29ers with short chainstays always seem to say that short chainstays are the key to a good 29er. But folk who ride 29ers with longer chainstays generally claim that it's not a problem, which is confusing.”
I’d suggest that short chainstays will make a bike handle quicker and improve the turn in speed. Ahh you say, how would you know? Well those adjustable chainstays on my Whyte (425-445mm with 5mm increments), I’ve played with the settings, and yes even a muppet like me can tell a 5mm difference, when ridden back to back. OK, then where does that leave the Segment and other long CS bike like the Phantom & Camber Evo? All well rated too.. Well it adds up to a more stable ride, especially at speed. So which do you want? A nimble poppy bike.. go short, or want a bit of a bruiser that fly down trails at speed, go long. No doubt there is goldilocks length, but suspension design has a big hand in what is possible. It‘s also a good question (RP again) as to quite why the Segment didn’t get the ‘bent’ seat tube of the Alpine 5, maybe they felt it didn’t make it nimble enough compared to the detriment of the descending stability or simply it increased the manufacturing costs? Or is it something to do with the swinging arm clearance, though again they’ve managed it with the Alpine.
I dunno..
My conclusion: It’s never going to be any sort of (XC) race winner, a little bit lardy for really fast climbing, too short travel for full on alpine DH run descending (fine for alps ‘trail’ riding) but for a really fun all day bike.. a bang on option I think. It’s not a subtle bike by any standard, more bull in a china shop, you can just ride through stuff! Yes there are others that do the same job but as I’ve pointed out all the way through, the most efficient suspension system or even wheelsize doesn’t always suit every rider. Try one, you might like it, I definitely did
So.. am I buying one?... I dunno, yes it a definite possibility but I wonder if a nipper bike a better option for my local twisty short up and down trails. If I lived where the trails were long & rocky (peaks/lakes/scotland) then I’d buy one without a 2nd thought. As mentioned I have issues with such a small shock and large leverage (I was running 260psi), the Banshee Phantom is a very very similar bike (angles, weight and CS length) but with a much better shock (length & type) & a then a very annoying LBS is tempting me toward the Evil, which I will have no chance to test.
PS: I like wide-ish bars, always having had 700mm’s when they were unfashionable and was happy to move up to 720’s on my HT, but saw the 800mm fashion, as complete daftness. The test Segment came equipped with 800m Kores, though I didn’t measure them until the last day, so just thought them 750mm or so... How great are they? Bloody brilliant on a bike like this is all I’m saying, they totally matched the bull in a china shop ride.
Bugger, that is a long post, sorry 😳
I have a -2° angleset in my Gyro and its totally ace. Climbs really well, and im currently going faster on it than my 650b Cube Stereo.
Ihave some lighter tyres to try too, so excited about loosing 300g per wheel rotating mass!
INRAT, or following the links...
Summary in 30 words or less please...
[i]So.. am I buying one?... I dunno, yes it a definite possibility[/i]
Good you've reached a conclusion anyway.
[img] 
[/img]
Good you've reached a conclusion anyway.
Hey, if life was that black and white, we'd all be riding the same bike.
cookeaa nope, read my post or read the very short Phantom review.
MH, what point are you trying to make there?
[img] 
[/img]
Just taking the piss. Gives it a bump, I guess. 🙂
(and I did actually read it. Well, skimmed it, anyway).
fair enuff, I'd like chance to post reply to the expected piss takin.
^^ thats a better gif for the OP.
Can you expand on the OP a bit please?
of course, my pleasure.. what bit did you want expanding 😛
Thanks for taking the time to write all that. I never understand why people object to long posts. You don't have to read them, but somebody has put a lot of work into writing them. People who are seriously considering a bike may appreciate the full warts 'n' all review. It's also really useful to read about the rider (something that most reviews miss). Let's face it, none of these bikes are bad, they are just better suited to some folk than others, so knowing the preferences of the reviewer is just as important as hearing what they thought about the particular bike.
Anyway, to the bike itself. Could the failure to clear the climb (due to wandering off line) be a negative of that slack head angle?
Also, you like single pivots, don't like 4-bar, but are considering the Evil. Maybe that needs a bit more justification. Mind you, I keep blowing hot and cold on the whole single pivot thing too. Lots of effort has gone into developing more complex suspension designs and these people aren't idiots, so it seems logical that these deigns should be better. OK, bearing changes are a faff, but how often do you do those? Why ride round all the time on a worse design just to save a bit of shed time. But then I hop on my Five and think it is just so much fun. I'm also a big believer that things should only be as complex as they need to be. Does a mountain bike suspension need to be any more complex than a single pivot? Probably not for a rider like me.
Finally, I'll have a go at a summary for cookeaa.
A really fun bike, ideally suited to big open rocky rides, but maybe a bit long for just messing about in the woods.
Would that cover it 🙂
of course, my pleasure.. what bit did you want expanding
Erm, the bit about your lurgy symptoms?
On second thoughts you're alright.
I never understand why people object to long posts.
I can only see good natured teasing.
a then a very annoying LBS is tempting me toward the Evil, which I will have no chance to test.
LOL
INRAT, or following the links...Summary in 30 words or less please...
Nobody's forcing you to either!
TRUST me though... That's short and to the point by his standards!!! 😉
Also, you like single pivots, don't like 4-bar, but are considering the Evil. Maybe that needs a bit more justification.
Quite simple really... Nothing to do with the amount of maintenance (perceived or otherwise), all to do with how they feel. The Evil is a single pivot, but it's the best kind of single pivot, it's a single pivot with a linkage actuated shock (exactly as featured on just about every motorbike since the late 80's)
Put simply, the Evil is gonna be huge! Same long/low/slack front end as lots of other 29ers, but with added super short back end a la Whyte T-129 SCR, but then it's lighter (as you would expect being carbon) and has marginally more tyre clearance, and it still has a front mech mount for the luddites too!
Can't wait for mine... :-p
a then a very annoying LBS is tempting me toward the Evil,
^^^ he's at it again, "please miss can some-one tell him to stop"
Anyway, to the bike itself. Could the failure to clear the climb (due to wandering off line) be a negative of that slack head angle?
Nah, I was just tired and its steep little bugger, I'm happy with slack angled climber because (more in the dry) you have lots of leeway to wander around and come back onto line. I know XC angles give you better weight distribution but on an xc bike when they stutter on a climb your normally done for, on a slacker bike you wander off-line, around the houses & back onto the line continuing to climb IMHE. This "climb" is particularly dependent on conditions, too dry and the dust spins your rear wheel, too wet and your spinning again. Last weekend conditions were just ok, a bit wet really, but the Segment was climbing it willingly/easily. I mentioned it to off-set the fact that it's not a bike to scamper up (road) climbs but is a willing off-road climber.
TRUST me though... That's short and to the point by his standards!!!
What can I say, I like to think things through.. and talk them thru, then email someone.. I don't swap and change bikes often, so want a 'keeper' right from the off.
[b]
[/b]A really fun bike, ideally suited to big open rocky rides, but maybe a bit long for just messing about in the woods.
Yep that's the one, but as you say, I feel that the wart & all thinking behind a review is important.
Interesting read. Surely at 440mm in the shortest setting the phantoms stays are hardly long for full sus bike (view based on assumption rather than research)?
Evil huh......anyone read that article about US product designers not having a clue about English weather in the current issue of STW 😀
The Pacific North West is quite damp.
Looking forward to reports from Evil riders, but I think I'd want to wait a year or so and see how they fare in the wild. That shock looks like it's going to be sitting in a cup full of crap for a lot of the time, but it's always hard to tell from pictures.
Getting back to the Segment, the lack of rear tyre clearance is interesting, Is the swingarm any narrower on this than any other Orange? How does a Mtn King 2.2 compare with, say, a Nobby Nick 2.25 size wise?
A really fun bike, ideally suited to big open rocky rides, but maybe a bit long for just messing about in the woods.
Bit confused by this to be honest. Maybe it applies to the Segment but I'd say my Phantom is one of the sharpest handling bikes I've ridden and is easier to play in the woods with than my old heckler (140mm fork) or 456 (130mm fork).
Mind you I've never been convinced by the "chainstay length is king" rule of bike design either, particularly when taken in isolation.
And you can fit a big tyre in the back. Just saying, like 😉
Why confused, did you get chance to try say a T-129 (431mm) or Spesh Enduro (430mm) to compare it's handling? It's not like I was there cursing it lack of ability to turn in or thought it was struggling, but I could feel that extra length initially. I know from my HT that the shorter the CS ([b]even a 5mm difference[/b]), the better it turns in and ability to rail round corners. It's not the "king of rules" but is a significant part of the overall design that I can point at & understand as a layman having had the ability to adjust CS length on my current bike. I could happily buy this bike and ride it locally but my conclusion is that it better 'flat out' big ride machine than a twisty track killer
But hey these are just "my" impressions, everyone has their own idea's.
I was confused only because it runs contrary to my experience (again, not of the Segment but of the Phantom) in terms of fast handling in twisty stuff. Maybe I've just become used to riding the Phantom.
I tried a T-129 but, like you, have issues with the suspension feel. I actually thought it wasn't out of the ordinary through twisty stuff although I don't have a particular reason why. I also couldn't get it to manual for $hit which surprised me. I rode a gyro and that felt looong. And rode like it too.
Could well be a riding style thing too, I tend to ride very much over the bars and unweight the back through corners.
I did read you big review though (and enjoyed it) and agree with most of what you say so I think we're splitting hair to be honest.
I got as far as this bit then stopped reading...
...don’t do jumps, have to know a drop to be confident in doing it, and have a general steam roller attitude to lines so don’t need a lot of travel but wanted a bit more than 100mm.
I just can't trust the opinion of someone who doesn't do jumps 😀
Hope you don't mind me chipping in. I've run 2.25 Nobbly Nics no problem (on carbon wheels so maybe less flex/rubbing on swing arm) on my large Gyro.
Just to throw something else into the mix, I'm running Pikes with a 51mm offset crown and boy does it work. It allows you to run a slacker head angle but keeps the steering precise. It feels like it puts the wheel right out in front but still flies up tricky, techy steeps and fairly steams along the single track. Maybe its the best of both worlds?
In terms of fast handling and CS length I think a dropper post has made a massive difference here so again best of both worlds: longer more stable back end but with a dropper you can really lean your bike/body and get your centre of gravity lower - in my experience a long CS bike will go round anything you can get a short CS bike round with appropriate bike handling or is that body English (does anyone say that anymore? :-). Just a thought.
Saying that, everyone I know that has a Kona Process thinks they are the best thing since....
**** me Z1ppy I hope you never bump into Bonesetter down the Anchor.
The pair of you will create a black hole of aimless bike woffle if you get together.
😛
😀 I talk myself in & out of a decision, & I'm happy to have my opinion changed by a good discussion
Apologies Euro but did it a disclaimer right at the start "“I figure that there is a gap in the market for the views of a talentless idiot." I do pop off stuff but don't aim for jumps with enthusiasm
Just re-read the stw review & it says everything I have, but you need to find what you like yourself, as per RP above, there no really bad bikes.
http://singletrackmag.com/reviews/orange-segment-rs/ (2 free reviews a day available to non-subscribers now!)
Shackleton glad you & others enjoyed my post, hoped to make it a lighter take on things, I'm hardly an indepth reviewer or rider. the stw review mentionsthe segment appreciating more front end input, & those silly long bars meant I could push it where-ever I wanted, so maybe it just a little lust for the latest & greatest from Evil & self justification.
The Evil is a left field option, & no doubt has its own issues (mud trap et all), but I'll still be keeping the Whyte HT for winter duties (or long stints of bad weather), this was its original purpose after all.
tl; dr. 😕
Out of all the short travel aggressive 29ers I have ridden the Phantom and Smuggler are best. Flip a coin and pick one.
I may be prejudiced! 😀
Care to elaborate on why?
I have been riding the Phantom for nearly nine months on everything from DH tracks/enduro steeps to big 'classic' hill days and plain old swoopy fun singletrack. It loves it all, never fails to put a smile on my face.
Smuggler is very close, plus points for being cheaper but minus points for not having a CC Inline which is magic in a shock.
Prejudiced because we sell them, but we choose to sell them because they are ace, rather than say they are ace because we sell them. But you will have to take my word for it..
I'd avoid the Evil as it has bugger all rear tyre clearance. Plus the linkage design put me off an Uprising this time last year. I went with a Banshee Spitfire in the end and it's bloody brilliant.
The Banshee's suspension design is fantastic. Very little bob when pedalling and even with the CCDBA with CS I very rarely use the CS because the suspension is so good.
I've also heard that the Transition suspension is very active and you have to run a lot of sag on them, I think I've seen 35%-40% mentioned somewhere.
EDIT: Obviously I'm not comparing 29ers here but I guess the Phantom will ride very similar to the Spitfire given they have the same suspension design
**** me Z1ppy I hope you never bump into Bonesetter down the Anchor.
The pair of you will create a black hole of aimless bike woffle if you get together.
😆
Brilliant, just brilliant!
I'd avoid the Evil as it has bugger all rear tyre clearance. Plus the linkage design put me off an Uprising this time last year. I went with a Banshee Spitfire in the end and it's bloody brilliant.
Seen one in the flesh yet?
Was my biggest concern until I did. I can confirm that the rear tyre clearance is good enough to get a 2.25" Ardent in with *enough* mud room for most people on most trails. Agreed, some people may insist on running a 2.4" tyre on the back of their bike, and in that case it won't be for them, but I can confirm that the Evil has more rear tyre clearance than many popular 29er full sus bikes that have already been mentioned in this thread...
The Banshee's suspension design is fantastic. Very little bob when pedalling and even with the CCDBA with CS I very rarely use the CS because the suspension is so good.
The Banshee appears to have it pretty much sewn up just looking at it, and easily has the most tyre clearance I've seen of the new breed of slacker, more agressive 29ers. The 2 negatives for me are the weight (there's no getting away from it, it's a good 1.5-2lb heavier than most of its competition) and the incredibly steep seat angle that makes for a slightly cramped riding position when seated.
*enough* meaning I could jam my Large adult male sized hands between the stay and the tyre all the way around, just...
Apologies Euro but did it a disclaimer right at the start.
Yeah, you should have put it at the end 😛
I'm interested in a FS 29er as my next bike (that's a waaaay off yet), so i did skim through the rest. Fair play. You made more words in that post than, short of my dissertation, i've ever managed. I didn't relate to much of it as i just don't think about it to that level. It's more the riding i think about i guess. The bike's just the bike. I don't mean i'd ride any old shite mind, my bike is class 😀 but to me a degree or a few mm here or there isn't a deal breaker. Most bikes don't feel strange for long.
Funny as I love it because of the steep SA! Hate that feeling of pedalling 'forwards' when the bb is too far in front of the saddle. If it felt cramped climbing then size up 😉
I have heard talk of people fitting the 650b Spitfire/Rune dropouts to Phantoms and having clearance for 29+ tyres 😀 Would need RS1s or other mega clearance forks though.
I ran the Smuggler at 30% seated sag, which I think is a bit less than they say but it felt spot on. Would have been nice to have more time to play around with it. Got the same 30% on the Scout I am on tomorrow, will try out a few settings. Can't get over how small and weird the wheels feel 😀
It's always tricky finding something that satisfies all your wants/needs. Like the OP I quite fancy a slack (68 degree) full suss 29er. However, I really want:
1. Short chainstays (should be more fun)
2. A front mech (tried 1x10 and didn't like it)
3. A reputation for reliability (I ride all year round in crappy Scottish weather).
4. A nice bold colour (some people don't care about colour, but I do)
5. A good climber (I enjoy the ups as much as the downs)
6. Frame only (as I have all the bits I need on my Solaris)
Nothing quite fits the bill and once you accept that you are going to have to drop at least one of your wants it becomes very hard to decide which one. I guess that explains why (despite toying with the idea of a full suss 29er for nearly two years now) I'm still riding my 26" Five.
Well except for proving no. 3 the evil following seems to match that criteria...
http://www.bikemag.com/news/evils-following-2015-bible-bike-tests-roundtable-reels/
I do like my Pyga 29-Ten. Head angle is 68.5 I think but that might be for a 120mm fork. I run a 130mm. To match your list
1. Yep, pretty damn short, 445 I think, can't remember
2. Oh yes, I live next to the Malvern Hills, 1x10 and my knees are not compatible
3. Not sure how many have sold but mine's coming up 2 years old and must have 3500-4000km on it through two grotty winters (esp 2013-14). Changed bearings once. Otherwise, no issues at all.
4. It's very green 🙂
5. Excellent climber. I rarely use the pro-pedal on road climbs as there isn't much bob, and it's a goat on off road climbs if you've got the legs
6. Yep and Drover Cycles are knocking a chunk off last years frames (which is good as they aren't cheap!)
Here's mine. It's normally just green. Not green and brown 🙂
[url= https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7389/12030635675_03cb1a12cc_c.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7389/12030635675_03cb1a12cc_c.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/jk79R2 ]FLYGA..[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/people/60876362@N00/ ]Alex Leigh[/url], on Flickr
STW did a review on this, the segment and the process I think. They liked them all.
Where does the Segment fail on your list roverpig?
Or get one of these and a respray for much less...
http://www.blueflowbikes.com/hammerhead-thumper-closeouts/hammerhead-thumper-frame
Fits all your criteria and as a bonus there's no press fit or internal routing nonsense.
According to the Pyga website, it s 69degree with 130mm travel, so above my self imposed 120mm limit and too steep dude (67.5 is fun), and were back to the "is 445mm long" question and given the alternatives are coming in with around 430mm, I'd suggest yes. As per Shakletons comments, it's down to splitting hair but this is the bike I want, not what you want me to want...
(repeat that with the Thumper and it's a 4-bar)
I don't doubt there all great bikes in this range, but it/many fails too many of 'my requirements', and TBH I was told they were discount the frames (from the distributor), which isn't the best of signs.
I do like my Pyga 29-Ten. Head angle is 68.5 I think but that might be for a 120mm fork. I run a 130mm. To match your list
It's 69 according to their website?
While I shouldn't judge it on paper, I am always surprised it crops up in threads like this as everything about it on paper makes it seem a very different beast to the others mentioned in this thread. It's both taller, steeper and shorter than anything else mentioned in this thread, and gets sent to magazine tests specced with Sids. Everything about it make it seem quite a different proposition to the others.
Fair enough. I don't really mind what you get, I was just chucking it out there. I'd be really interested to ride a bike that hits all your marks and compare it to something that doesn't like some of the options thrown out here.
My view for what it's worth, the way a bike rides is not entirely determined by the numbers for head angles etc. For me, the high water mark of how fast I can go has little to do with the absolute capabilities of the bike I'm riding!
Your approach is definitely going to get you what you want (if you can find anything). Mine is more 'does it make me grin when ride it?'. If the answer is yes, happy days.
@TD and yet STW happily tested it with a Segment and a Process. I'm not of the opinion 'it's the best bike ever' or 'it's a better bike than the segment'. As an all round trail bike I'd say it's a good compromise and copes happily with everywhere I've ridden it in the UK and abroad. Doesn't feel tall and steep to me (and I've got a mega!), just feels long and low.
Anyway not really helping at this point, so as you were 🙂
Don't get me wrong, I'm not telling you are wrong so apologies if it came across as such, just expressing my surprise at its apparent capability based on everything on paper. I'd be genuinely interested to hear a comparative test from someone who has ridden it up against a Banshee, Evil or Transition. Not cause I want to buy one, just out of curiosity.
Sorry z1ppy, this is your thread, not mine, but since our wants are pretty similar I'll chip in with my comments on the suggestions too, if I may.
Evil: Looks great, but that's a lot to pay to be one of their beta testers. It's not just a case of unproven reliability, they've got proven unreliability! Still, it may be great (even though the clearance looks tight, the suspension looks stupidly complicated and the shock looks as though it will spend most of the ride grinding mud).
PYGA: 69.5 degrees at 120mm and as far as I can tell there is no option to fit an angleset, so you are stuck with that. Also, I keep hearing about these deals on 2014 models, but I've never seen an advertised price (if it really is that good I might be tempted). Not too keen on press fit BB either, but it wasn't on my list as I guess I could live with it.
Segment: Long chainstays.
Of course, this just shown up the arbitrary nature of my list. Will a degree here or there on the HA or a cm here or there on the chainstays make any difference? Probably not, but you need some way to whittle down the list to a manageable size.
Alex, I do appreciate the input & anyone else willing to put forward a suggestion, my comments aren't meant to be taken as "shooting you down in flames", just replying how I've judged it.
I've been mulling this over for a long time and have covered most of the options.
As per the OP, I believe the Segment is loads of fun and would do all I need it, as no doubt the Pyga/Thumper/Phantom/Smuggler(if it wasn't 1x) would do to, but I want something a bit "more".
RP: go for it, the more discussion, the better in my book & as you know I appreciate your input & thoughts on this area of the market. Whether comments are aimed at me or not, I'm still going to have reply to them as if they were (it is my post after all & I'll cry if I want to)
I don't at all object to Very Long Posts, but in this case it seems to point to the OP having a very hard time making a decision.
This is all a matter of personal choice, natch, but there is a lot to recommend the approach of simply buying the bike, declaring that it is, must and shall be awesome because you've bought it and just riding it. Especially if you're not especially good, the main thing is convincing yourself that it's awesome. 90% of that is psychosomatic, and the rest is good tyres.
🙂
Fellas I'm not precious about it at all. It's a whole chunk of cash so I understand the prevarication. Two options I guess, go through the ball-ache of test riding everything, or find the closest thing to what you want and live with the fact it'll be compromised somewhere else.
Best of luck!
BD/Alex, I'd made my decision a long time ago, I wanted a T-129, it was done all sown up... demoing some other bikes & a longer demo ride on the Whyte changed my mind. Might have been a ball ache but it saved me buying a bike I wouldn't have been 'really' happy with, but even I know I'd have gotten used to it or probably had the shock tuned/changed.
I also wonder whether the PYGA should be in this comparison. However, if you look at the reach and stack number they are pretty much the same as the Segment. Certainly longer than the standard XC options (with neither being quite as long as the Process 111 or Smuggler, for example). STW certainly seemed to like it when they tested it besides the Process and Segment.
Ideally I'd quite like to replace both my 26" Five and mt Solaris with a "nu-skool" 29er and I'm not sure the PYGA quite fits the bill. But if the price were right I might just replace the Solaris frame (which is green too) and keep the Five.
Segment: Long chainstays.
Aha, 450mm is longer than a lot of bikes yeah, but Orange are known for their longish stays and you like Oranges...
I thought the Thumper might be a bit long in the rear but I'm very glad of the stability in reality.
Would like to try a more progressive geometry 29er, but my feeling is they will make most sense when going balls out warp speed fast.
Just to throw another curve-ball into the discussion, I'm not that convinced by demos either. They are fun and I've done a fair few, but if I'm honest, my initial view of a bike is almost always what I expect it to be. When it's not it's often because of some simple thing that I could easily change (shock not being set up for me, heavy tyres, uncomfortable cockpit etc). It takes me months to really decide whether I like a bike or not and most can be adapted to work. It is, as has been suggested, mainly just a matter of convincing yourself that you've made the right choice.
Aha, 450mm is longer than a lot of bikes yeah, but Orange are known for their longish stays and you like Oranges...
Well I like my Five, but that has 425mm stays.
Mind you, I had a lot of fun on a Gyro a couple of years ago. I suspect that, if people didn't keep banging on about the importance of short stays I might not care 😳
Hi folks
As many of you know we're dealers for both Transition and Pyga. In my opinion both the Smuggler and the OneTen are great all-round bikes, with the Smuggler [i]slightly [/i]more biased towards the downs and the Pyga slightly more towards all-day up-and-down rides - but both are a blast (our Smuggler demo hasn't arrived yet so that's not first-hand though if it's anything like the other bikes it's safe to say). I've spent a fair bit of time riding the Pygas.
Also, I keep hearing about these deals on 2014 models, but I've never seen an advertised price
We need to up our advertising, obviously 🙂 We're working on a new website to allow us to do this better but there never seems to be enough time in the day. We have blogged and put out quite a bit of information about our Pyga deals - frame only is £1399 (reduced from £1749) on the remaining 2014 frames. Custom builds from £2000 (but if you can spend £2500 the package is much better).
I'm always amazed that people place so much importance on what journalists say, or want someone else to test the bikes side by side for them. Why not come over to mid-Wales (or another shop which stocks the bikes you're interested in) and try them out side-by-side for yourself? I'm pretty sure if you ride the Pyga, like Alex, you won't want to give it back...
If anyone wants to try a Pyga or a Transition - or for that matter a Merida, Saracen, a Mondraker or anything else we stock, and can't make it to mid-Wales for a demo, get in touch and we'll see about sending you a bike, or arranging a weekend rendezvous at a convenient trail centre.
Just to throw another curve-ball into the discussion, I'm not that convinced by demos either.
I suspect that, if people didn't keep banging on about the importance of short stays I might not care
You are clearly a bit more analytical than most buyers, and I agree that once you know what you want geometry-wise and know how suspension systems feel - the relevance of demo rides decreases.
However you are hung up on the chainstay issue, so I reckon you do need to get out on a bike or two to experience that aspect.
Thanks. I guess I'd have to factor in a headset and BB in that price. So, what, £1,500 all in. Basically the same as a Segment (which will take the headset and BB from the Solaris) but with a better shock and a nicer standard colour (although I could have the Segment in lots of other colours too for an extra £100).
Certainly food for thought.
You are clearly a bit more analytical than most buyers
Ha, you're not kidding there mate. More analytical than most human beings would be closer to the mark.
However you are hung up on the chainstay issue, so I reckon you do need to get out on a bike or two to experience that aspect.
I have tried a few, but the problem is that you are never testing just one thing. For example, I find it much easier to lift the front end of my Solaris (with its 440mm stays) than my Five (with its 425mm stays). So I know there is a lot more too it than one number. I also know that human beings are really unreliable observers. We tend to feel what we are looking for. I could book a demo of a Segment. In fact I might, it would be fun. But I could write my review now, if I'm honest. For the first few rides it will feel how I expect it to feel, unless it has been set up really badly for me, in which case it will just feel awful. It is only after riding a bike for a few months that I start to notice the things that I wasn't looking for.
For those who like numbers, here are the values from the manufacturers web sites. Having ridden 3 of the bikes (Phantom, 111 and T-129) on the same trails I feel I can safely say that no single number, or combination of them, translates into an ability to predict how they will handle on the trail. But then we all knew that anyway 😉
I found that the Process and the T-129 weren't great in twisty stuff despite having short stays. The T-129 also felt more twitchy downhill and climbing on the 111 felt more of a struggle than it should have been. No real idea from looking at the charts why this was the case or why the Phantom felt better to me for my trails and my style or riding.
........Phantom (mid)...Segment.....Process111...Following (high)...T-129
HA......68..................67.5............68...............67.8...................68
SA......74.5................74..............74...............73.2...................73.8
CS......442.................450.............430..............430....................431
WB......1168................1177............1173.............1158...................1160
ETT.....615.................620.............634..............626....................610
Reach...450.................444.............460..............444....................?
Stack...616.................612.............617..............604....................?
Why can't we add tables!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fascinating, so the Phantom seemed to go round corners better than the T129, despite having a longer wheelbase and longer stays? Just goes to show I guess. Although what it goes to show I have no idea 🙂
Actually the Phantom fits all my criteria bar the colour. Pity they offer three colours yet two of them are grey and one is grey(ish) 😀 Or pity I'm so shallow, more like.
I suspect the cornering thing is down to my riding style, the terrain and what I call twisty!
And grey?
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If you are in Scotland (or just happen to be near Dundee) you are welcome to take mine for a spin (and I can show you my twisty).
I'm always amazed that people place so much importance on what journalists say,
Well damn, what do you want us to rely on? Trust you local LBS opinion? Lets see.. I have a number of LBS very closeby, the Santa Cruz dealer said buy SC, the local Orange/Cube dealer says Orange or Cube, the Whyte dealer wanted me to go whyte but since I don't like it, is happy to recommend his new brand Evil.. Which of them do I trust?
My OP when you look at the STW review, is basically the same (if you ignore all my rubbish), but I wanted to confirm the suspension feel, as this isn't really expounded much by reviews, well not to my satisfaction but then they're trying to say something new about every bike. So a generic "it's a 4-bar, it's sofa like plush" or "it's a Single Pivots, it's active and poppy" comment aren't going to come across well repeated ad-nauseum.
So you recommend getting demos, great but not all bike are available, unless you want something more mainstream (in the 120mm 29er fun market, it's more niche brands). I've tried to get a Banshee Phantom demo locally, have had some very kind offers, if I wanted to travel a couple of hours and ride trails I don't know then I could get one, to me that's of limit use.
Damn, that Phantom looks great! And i SO dont need another bike......
OK, it's not quite grey. In fact it does look better out in the wild than on Banshee's web site.
I'm only just up the road (just North of Aberdeen), but as you know there is an iron curtain between Dundee and Aberdeen 🙂
Seriously, it's a very kind offer, but as I said I'm not that convinced by test rides and I'd really need to knick it for a couple of days and ride it on my own trails to get any idea of whether I liked it, which is a bit too cheeky even for me (although I could offer you a 26" Five, or a Solaris, or both, as security 🙂 ),
The Phantom is a great looking bike, I've been eyeing them up since the Sea Otter proto-type, but that colour is gooping in the flesh (sorry Shackleton, it's a personal choice), why didn't they offer it in the lovely Orange that the rest of the range comes in?
I prefer raw bikes but they weren't available in the first shipment. If they had the orange I'd be torn though. I wan't convinced by the green at first either (it changes with the light) but I now like it.
I was looking at the same bikes as you a couple of months ago, dont get too obsessed with the numbers.
I ended up with a camber evo, it wasn't "right" on paper, but my god it's flippin good, that good im not even thing what if i got a phantom or smuggler. Stable, agile, playful, fast, interactive, plush....lots of other contradicting phrases to describe a bike.
I got fed up of debating, deciding demoing and living with are two completely different things, i'll only truly know if it's my bike and i live with it.
All the bikes you're looking at are good, just buy one, it won't let you down. Buy the one you like most, don't put too much debate into it, or else no bike you're going to buy is ever going to be "right".
PS, if you're going to start thinking about linkage layouts, dont tar different bikes with the same layout with the same brush. It's the designer that dictates how the suspension feels, not the general layout, it's bad assuming.
Dean, was cash poor.. now cash rich, the need is great.
PS. BTW, if you in the market for a large Gyro (slap a angleset on it!), the "The bike place" have a rather lovely (little used) ex-demo for a reduced price for sale.
http://www.thebikeplace.co.uk/online-shop/product/98-orange-gyro-pro?search=orange%20gyro
Was my backup plan but as I'm not convinced, I'm happy to let you know (not connected to the shop, I live about 4hrs away). The website setup's a little ropey & you'd forgiven in thinking it's not available but it is... give them a ring/email (& discuss the option of a warranty)
I posted a while ago on here about the advice a lbs gave me when I was looking at fs 29ers and they pointed me towards the Camber EVO.
Anyone else tried one?
Hopefully they are awful as I passed by a good deal on one 😉 BUT in all honesty I think they may well have been right. It just didn't excite me in terms of ownership I guess.
That and the fact that I have a Camber Expert 26er which I find the most frustrating bike I've ever owned (and my mtbing started in '86). Every ride ends in a love it / hate it conclusion.
I totally get where RP is coming from (did I admit that out loud? ? 😉 ) about demo or test rides.
Linking this in with another RP thread, the reason I looked at fs was due to liking my Solaris as a 29er but getting hit with fatigue on a number of rides. On reflection just getting out more helped. I think the rides on the fs and also the road bike made me lazy when it came to standing regularly rather than seated riding.
Obviously having spinal damage from an old accident doesn't help but then I also found swapping bikes on a ride with my son (alu Spesh Carve) then jumping back on mine the steel frame was better than I thought.
I don't think my waffle has added anything to the thread but I feel better for it!
Oh and when weighing them up the closet bike I came to going for was a Transition Smuggler. I liked the 'get on and ride' rather than keep fettling philosophy but haven't bought one so can't say how/if that works out in practice.
I don't think my waffle has added anything to the thread but I feel better for it!
That's good enough for me 🙂
Oh and when weighing them up the closet bike I came to going for was a Transition Smuggler. I liked the 'get on and ride' rather than keep fettling philosophy but haven't bought one so can't say how/if that works out in practice.
I can't help thinking that's just a clever bit of marketing though. Going by the few reviews that are out there the Smuggler is not the most efficient climber and most reviewers still seem to flick the pro-pedal on. But the whole "quit thinking about it and just ride the damn thing" philosophy is not a bad one.
I don't think my waffle has added anything to the thread but I feel better for it!
Did you read the OP? This thread is all about the waffle
The Transistions still another annoying "1x" only bike though, not for me.
Personally I can't be doing with the more mainstream brands, and there fantastic lifetime warranty's, barstewards the lot of them.
Normal Man - Camber evo -
http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/who-lives-with-or-has-lived-with-a-camber-evo
My comments from another thread -
"I had a go on the whyte, it was a normal 129 mind, really was not impressed. It didnt pedal that well whilst not being that capable either.
Took a punt on a camber evo even though it has a "steep" 68.5* HA and *long* 450mm chainstay, it really does not ride the way the numbers say it does. So impressed, so capable, so playful, composed, is not a chore on xc rides. To put it into context the type of rider i am, i'm a life long bmxer who gets bored easy, ie i dont ride bikes to sit in the saddle a twiddle the pedals, i constantly need to be doing something with the bike, if it's playful enough for me, it's playful enough for anyone. Im even setting faster times on strava on my camber on some DH stuff than my DH bike.
I guess what im trying to say is dont get too hung on the numbers, i dont know if it's the same for you OP, but my camber evo is my first 29er FS, if you've limited experience of this kind of bike, don't be too quick to draw assumptions."
2 friends who have tried mine now have one. We're all at the "DHer" at the end of the spectrum, i like a good pedal too, dont really ride with XC ppl, but judging by strava on climbs and flatter stuff im not doing too bad, also a BMXer so lots and lots of jumps, manual and silly stuff. I just dont how it is so good at everything i ask of it, i like to think my riding is much more varied than most too.
All the bikes you're looking at are good, just buy one, it won't let you down. Buy the one you like most, don't put too much debate into it, or else no bike you're going to buy is ever going to be "right".
Probably the most sensible comment so far. If you feel some love for the bike you will probably enjoy riding it. If it is a great riding bike but it doesn't light your fire you will never love it.
Probably the most sensible comment so far. If you feel some love for the bike you will probably enjoy riding it. If it is a great riding bike but it doesn't light your fire you will never love it
Well it took us three pages but we got there in the end 🙂
I like Orange bikes. I don't know why. I'm not even sure I care why. But when I open the shed and see my neon orange Five hanging there it makes me smile and I want to go ride it. I've come close with Cotic and if they made a full-suss 29er it would be up there on my list. But they don't. So, really, all that I should think about is whether a Segment would be a good replacement for my 26" Five. Everything else is probably just taking up brain space that I should use for something else.
Thanks for helping me work this out. Now back to z1ppy's problems 🙂
ps. And if deanfbm can manual a Camber I've really got no excuses.
hang were talking about my bike choice, not my personal issues... lets not go there.
PS: I think you'd love/buy the Segment after an 'extended' test ride RP.
Sorry mboy just came back to read the thread so didn't see your response after my post.
To answer your question, yes I've seen one and that's what put me off as I was pretty much all set to buy the Evil. Normally I like to run a 2.3 TK or HR2 on my bikes and I don't want to be squeezing a tyre in the rear and then have little mud clearance particularly give how bloody wet Scotland is most of the time 😆
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Considering the other options on offer, that hardly seems a squeeze (2.25 tyre), but fair enough if you've seen it in the flesh.
What you gunna consider instead though?
Thanks for the Camber EVO feedback deanfbm.
I'm also pleased my waffle didn't go to waste.
RP that comment you made on the need to flick on propedal was interested. That is one (of the list!) of the things that annoys me on my current Camber.
For eg. The other week I had a ride that consisted of sections of paved road, flat hard pack fire road but then some singletrack that was full of roots only broken up by open grass fields which were rutted and bumpy.
On the Cotic I'd stand / sit as required and just ride. On the fs it was constant stopping to flick the switch or forget to and feel compromised*. I tried 'on the fly' but gloved hands just mean you have to be careful not to adjust rebound at the same time!
*ie. Over the grassy stuff you could do with propedal on as it climbs slightly but then all the smaller ruts and divots get ignored (compared to 'open' setting) which meant I ended thinking I should have just bought the ht with me!
Just to try to clear something up, from the OPs post: "It‘s also a good question (RP again) as to quite why the Segment didn’t get the ‘bent’ seat tube of the Alpine 5, maybe they felt it didn’t make it nimble enough compared to the detriment of the descending stability or simply it increased the manufacturing costs? Or is it something to do with the swinging arm clearance, though again they’ve managed it with the Alpine."
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They look identical to me in the seattube department.