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As the title suggests MVDP crashes again during MTB practice, should he just admit it’s not his skillset
yet again he’s injured himself doing mountain bike and written himself out of the TDF.
does it irk him that Pidders is better at something than he is
I'm not convinced it's not his skillset, he obviously lapped a fair few laps of practice, but clearly made a mistake or two on the day. The problem is, it's not his main focus, so he's going into it slightly rusty and when you're not fully on your game, mistakes happen. Personally i think he's 'better' at CX and road arguably yes, but he's certainly capable enough as a MTBer and with his insane power can dominate. But not all sports are crossable between disciplines easily, so in his shoes (i wish) i'd be wanting a bit more MTB time if seriously going for big MTB wins.
I think the title is a bit provocative. He might have to drop MTB due to injury risk. But that’s really not the same as not having the skills
Everyone in the entire peloton is one crash or one injury away from wrecking their TdF pretty much every day. Whether they're out road riding, CX racing, MTBing or even driving a car. 🤷🏻♂️
Katie Archibald wrote herself out of the Paris Olympics when she slipped off her garden steps:
I think MvdP's mountain bike skills are beyond question but when you're in a sport like that where the tiniest error can be the difference between nailing a line at full speed and face planting, you're always on the very edge.
I think people have forgotten that he has been successful on the MTB, and was arguably the best by 2019; 3 XCO wins, 5 XCC wins, and the European XCO champion.......
The issue is since 2019, he's done just 6 XCO races, and very little prep for them - the result, 3 first lap crashes = 3 DNFs. He's completely rusty and it shows; the sport has got more technical, and a lot faster in those 6 years - you can't just turn up and think you'll be competitive. It's not CX, where he can rock up and win.......
If he puts the hard yards in, and actually trains/ races on the MTB regularly, then he can be up there; but choosing to race the Dauphine & Tour makes no sense - especially when the MTB Worlds are his main focus; none of his rivals will be pedalling around France, they'll be on their MTB.........
but choosing to race the Dauphine & Tour makes no sense
The Dauphine / Tour double isn’t that unusual, the Dauphine has long been a warm up for the tour and he’s not going to win the GC on either.
Sad if he misses '25 TDF, will be missed as leadout man and like pre-injury Allaphilippe, ripping up the field up short climbs.
What injuries has he got? Haven't heard anything about him being out of the tour.
As the title suggests MVDP crashes again during MTB practice, should he just admit it’s not his skillset
I thought it was in the actual race - twice.
yet again he’s injured himself doing mountain bike and written himself out of the TDF.
That's not confirmed.
The Dauphine / Tour double isn’t that unusual, the Dauphine has long been a warm up for the tour...
Indeed. Pog and Vinny are doing both this year.
Looking at the video and ignoring his skills for a moment, he got bucked over forwards a lot by the suspension rebounding. I've not ridden a Lux but some flex stay bikes need to be set up and ridden carefully to avoid energy stored in the stays making the rebound really harsh and uncontrollable in certain circumstances. Most racers are on bikes 50mm+ longer and several degrees slacker than the Lux. Gotta wonder if he might have ridden that out if not on one of the shortest and steepest bikes in the field.
Right, back to blaming the rider...he almost never lowers his saddle. This is one the first races he's had a dropper, whether he used it or not is a different matter. Usually every rider apart from MVDP will have their dropper down for jumps like that.
but choosing to race the Dauphine & Tour makes no sense
The Dauphine / Tour double isn’t that unusual, the Dauphine has long been a warm up for the tour and he’s not going to win the GC on either.
From a MTB racing point of view it's not going to make his MTB skills better, and that is his issue. He needs to spend time on the MTB, not pedalling around French roads for what benefit?
Blevins, Koreztky et al won't be prioritising road racing to the detriment of MTB......and neither should he, if he's truly serious about the MTB Worlds......
From a MTB racing point of view it's not going to make his MTB skills better, and that is his issue. He needs to spend time on the MTB, not pedalling around French roads for what benefit?
I think I'm right in saying he is employed mostly as a road racer.
A stage of the Tour or the Dauphine is a bigger result than the MTB worlds and that’s, as said before, what he’s paid for.
I've said it on other XC racing threads that I felt it was a problem that roadies were able to rock up to World Cups and World Champs and beat full time XC racers. To me it somewhat diminished the category, given that for most top level races the best XC mountain bike racers in the world wouldn't be there.
In some ways it seems extreme to increase the technicality of the courses until riders are forced to concentrate on the discipline in order to win but I think it's necessary.
I think it's great if top level roadies want to compete in XC but it shouldn't be something they can do on their spare weekends. It should require a serious commitment.
In some ways it seems extreme to increase the technicality of the courses until riders are forced to concentrate on the discipline in order to win but I think it's necessary
I’m not sure that would work, the only Worlds xc track I’ve been near already looked pretty extreme. Also if the organisers do that, the sport will remain a backwater with little public interest, the big stars in cycling aren’t mtb xc riders.
I’m not sure that would work, the only Worlds xc track I’ve been near already looked pretty extreme. Also if the organisers do that, the sport will remain a backwater with little public interest, the big stars in cycling aren’t mtb xc riders.
My point was it seems to have already happened. XC racers are using bikes with more 'trail' style geometry now compared to a few years ago, probably out of necessity. As was above mentioned, MvdP and Pidcock used to be able to rock up and win. Now it looks like MvdP is crashing rather than winning and if I had to take a guess I would assume it's because the tech requirements have increased.
In terms of being a backwater, I think if road racers are able to come along on their spare weekends and win WC XC races then that is what will consign XC to backwater status. If even the top pros have to give the events respect and time to prepare then I think that will make XC stand out as a top level discipline in its own right.
In terms of being a backwater, I think if road racers are able to come along on their spare weekends and win WC XC races then that is what will consign XC to backwater status
This happens already in CX and that discipline has been having somewhat of a resurgence over the last few years. XC’s problems are more deep rooted than roadies pitching up and winning, if it wants to be a widely watched and therefore respected top level disciplinary .
What do you reckon the main problems with XC are?
The coverage, last time I was watching it on Red Bull, was poor; gaps in camera coverage on the courses, it’s a difficult to make a race of individual racers spread out over a large course a “whole” package, the races are quite long. Unless you have a couple of racers kneck and kneck it comes across as quite processional - it just doesn’t come across as exciting as xc, downhill or road
It's definitely always going to be one for the purists, I reckon.
Unless someone picks up on the idea of running the short course race on a 4X track with the riders pedaling back to the top every lap 😉
XCO has had its pants pulled down by CX for over a decade, partly due to the rivalry between MVdP and WvA and the close racing at times. Most of the public don’t care much about the technical aspects of the course or bike - they just want to be entertained. You rarely see this level of one-to-one racing in XCO. If the XCO organisers decide to make the races even more technical then it’ll just make it more of a niche/minority sport.
All a bit arbitrary now. Broken wrist apparently…
Minor fracture and no news on if he will ride Dauphine or not.
I've said it on other XC racing threads that I felt it was a problem that roadies were able to rock up to World Cups and World Champs and beat full time XC racers. To me it somewhat diminished the category, given that for most top level races the best XC mountain bike racers in the world wouldn't be there.
See to me the likes of MVDP, WVA and TP are more like CX racers that have had to switch their main focus to the road to progress their careers and pay packets, and I don't see them as deficient in terms of bike handling ability. Pidcock is obviously more widely known for racing and winning on MTBs, but I can't see why the label of "Roadie" should rule MVDP out of XC racing.
I really don't get this hang up some MTBers seem to have about curly-barred bike riders taking up their sport it's a false separation different flavours of cycling. As if bikes with suspension, wider bars and fatter tyres are somehow more difficult to ride for someone who's held rainbow stripes in CX (7 times)...
Pushing too hard and breaking a wrist suggests to me that he was actually trying, almost as if he wanted to do well in the race, it's hardly like Nino Schurter never came a cropper before is it?
As for damaging his 2025 TDF? Meh, He's never really been a Grand tour rider (IMO) more of a talented one-dayer, He can excel on the odd stage maybe take some glory on a nadgery climb, but has never had the stamina to be leading a GC contending team... His profile always brings a nice bit of attention from a fans, ideal for sponsors irrespective of results.
He's out of the Dauphiné but it's ~5-1/2 weeks from the start of the tour, and it's been described as a "minor" break, so could a wrist heal sufficiently in that time? Maybe...
I really don't get this hang up some MTBers seem to have about curly-barred bike riders taking up their sport it's a false separation different flavours of cycling. As if bikes with suspension, wider bars and fatter tyres are somehow more difficult to ride for someone who's held rainbow stripes in CX (7 times)...
Again, the issue is not with roadies doing XC. The issue is with WC XC races where the winner is probably not the best XC racer in the world because the best XC racers in the world don't attend most of the WC XC races.
DH racing is the best DH riders in the world. No question. There is never a potential race winner not competing because they have something better to do (yeah, yeah, Martin Maes but Martin Maes is the exception that proves every rule).
imo, if your sport doesn't require it's best competitors to be fully committed to the discipline in order to be in with a chance of winning then your discipline is always going to be seen as the diddy league compared to the big boys. The trick is to figure out how to differentiate your sport enough in order to require the top people to commit fully in order to remain competitive.
Perhaps what we are seeing is that happening by raising the reach requirements to the point where a supremely talented rider is not able to complete the course safely, possibly because he is not committing enough time to his MTB.
I want to see the best racers in the world competing no matter what type of rider they are primarily identified as. However, I want to see that sport differentiating itself enough so that it requires full commitment.
How much have they lifted the difficulty of the course since he won the XCO there in 2019?
Josh Carlson suggested that Alpecin were notable in there lack of a technical advisor to hep them look at how they approach the difficult bits in comparison to other teams.
As was above mentioned, MvdP and Pidcock used to be able to rock up and win. Now it looks like MvdP is crashing rather than winning and if I had to take a guess I would assume it's because the tech requirements have increased.
My take would be that the standard increases year on year and starting from well down the grid (as MvdP and TP tend to have to due to lack of points) increases how hard they have to go at the start to make up for it - and thus increases the risk of an unforced error.
If the XCO organisers decide to make the races even more technical then it’ll just make it more of a niche/minority sport.
All racing is a minority sport.
How many people actually "race" off-road remotely competitively* in the UK? A few hundred? The balancing act is do you make the racing appealing for the riders, or do you make it entertainment.
Maybe there was something in the old proposal that MTB should have been at the Winter Olympics (or was it the X-games?) not the summer games. Make it more like CX, something the roadies can commit to for 4 months of the year and have the World Champs in the spring.
*as in they are competitive, not just entered in a race.
...the issue is with WC XC races where the winner is probably not the best XC racer in the world because the best XC racers in the world don't attend most of the WC XC races...
You can only hand medals and high fives to whoever actually turns up on the day (and has the UCI points required for entry). Seems a bit nonsensical to try and claim anyone but those who finish a WC race on the podium are the "best in the world"...
All racing is a minority sport.
How many people actually "race" off-road remotely competitively* in the UK? A few hundred? The balancing act is do you make the racing appealing for the riders, or do you make it entertainment.
Maybe there was something in the old proposal that MTB should have been at the Winter Olympics (or was it the X-games?) not the summer games. Make it more like CX, something the roadies can commit to for 4 months of the year and have the World Champs in the spring.
*as in they are competitive, not just entered in a race.
This is a fair point, XC (in whatever format) is now probably suffering form the subdivision of niches that MTBing has undergone over the last 35 odd years, the parallels drawn with other flavours of competitive cycling (on and off-road) and the "bang for buck" you might get investing in a decent XC bike Vs CX, Gravel, Enduro, MTB Marathon or whatever else is probably a bit of a deterrent now (in the UK at least).
Whereas in the early-mid 90s MTB racing was XC. DH was a bit of a bolt on as the bikes hadn't really been developed yet, Enduro (in it's current form) wasn't even a thing and 4x was sort of emerging but seen as a little niche still, a great way to knacker your MTB faster by treating it like a BMX.
Now XCO/XCC is an established sport with an Olympic medal attached, but those wanting to compete at the highest levels probably don't see it as the only form of competitive cycling they want to focus on, outside of the Olympics it's profile isn't really high enough to support a dedicated racing career anymore, there's not enough money or exposure in it...
Seems a bit nonsensical to try and claim anyone but those who finish a WC race on the podium are the "best in the world"...
So MvdP and Pidcock are only the best in the world when they actually turn up to races? What are they during the races they choose to skip (which is the majority of them)?
Even if you win a WC XC race with Pidcock and MvdP present, you're still competing against guys who are starting several rows behind you.
The fact they are still competitive starting from so far behind is not a good look for XC racing, imo.
Looking at the video and ignoring his skills for a moment, he got bucked over forwards a lot by the suspension rebounding. I've not ridden a Lux but some flex stay bikes need to be set up and ridden carefully to avoid energy stored in the stays making the rebound really harsh and uncontrollable in certain circumstances. Most racers are on bikes 50mm+ longer and several degrees slacker than the Lux. Gotta wonder if he might have ridden that out if not on one of the shortest and steepest bikes in the field.
Right, back to blaming the rider...he almost never lowers his saddle. This is one the first races he's had a dropper, whether he used it or not is a different matter. Usually every rider apart from MVDP will have their dropper down for jumps like that.
I watched a GMBN tech video, he apparently had a 115mm stem. That's going to help with a front door exit!
Now XCO/XCC is an established sport with an Olympic medal attached, but those wanting to compete at the highest levels probably don't see it as the only form of competitive cycling they want to focus on, outside of the Olympics it's profile isn't really high enough to support a dedicated racing career anymore, there's not enough money or exposure in it...
Most of the regular top 10 seem to be making a decent go of it. The regular top 5 probably won’t have to work again once they call it quits in their mid 30s.
Problem is that a world class xc racer can be taught to be a grand tour domestique pretty easily to someone who wants to sell their body for 10 times the money.
I also got a chuckle out of the women’s race where Keller and Lill (mtb purists) dropped the hammer on Puck the second they realised she had a flat in the most un-roadie-like way possible. Good tactics in itself but I like to think they got to show their disdain for PP jumping ship
So MvdP and Pidcock are only the best in the world when they actually turn up to races? What are they during the races they choose to skip (which is the majority of them)?
And what about the XC skiers, or rowers, or speed skaters that don't turn up either?
They might have turned up and crashed, they might have turned up and punctured, they might have turned up and had a bad day.
But they didn't turn up, ergo they weren't XC racers that day, ergo they weren't the best XC racer in the world that day.
And what about the XC skiers, or rowers, or speed skaters that don't turn up either?
Which top level XC riders don't turn up to WC races because they are skiing, rowing, or skating instead?
They might have turned up and crashed, they might have turned up and punctured, they might have turned up and had a bad day.
Yep, all things that can happen in a race that can be mitigated through training or technical/mechanical preparation. Increasing the technical skill requirements of racers and the requirements on the bikes themselves is a good way to create a barrier that forces all competitors to focus more on the discipline.
XC racing isn't just a 'turn up on the day and win' thing. Or rather, if it wants to be seen as a legitimate elite level discipline then it shouldn't be possible to just turn up and win. Or even just turn up and qualify.
Maybe this disagreement comes down to a question of what XC racing should be. For years it was seen as road racing on dirt. There have definitely been people who tried and failed to qualify for the Olympic road race and ended up doing the XC as it was much easier to qualify for. I think there has maybe been some moves for XC to make itself its own thing, within the limits of what the Olympics will allow for it to still be an Olympic event.
And once again, I don't want to not see any road/CX riders at XC races. I just want the discipline to be sufficiently different from road/CX that you can't jump into XC with limited focus and preparation and expect to win. Or even qualify.
The fact they are still competitive starting from so far behind is not a good look for XC racing, imo.Maybe the "best riders in the world" should go and train properly then?
What are they during the races they choose to skip (which is the majority of them)?Errrr, they'll be getting paid better.
The salary drop off between a potential WC XCO winner and a "solid top 20 performer" is gargantuan compared to the difference between similar roles on the road, even though there's really limited comparison as MTB isn't a team sport. There are top domestiques probably getting paid double or triple what a solid, dependable WC XCO top 20 finisher is. And they aren't even being paid to finish.
I just want the discipline to be sufficiently different from road/CX that you can't jump into XC with limited focus and preparation and expect to win. Or even qualify.Can't really be done, unless you turn it into downhill, where skill/stupidity/blindness to potential for life changing injury is *everything*. And FWIW, the vast majority of those doing WC/Elite level XC will be training extensively on the road or road like riding. (Christ, a lot of DH racers do similar).
Also, don't fancy a massed start on a course that technically challenging.
This whole thing sounds a lot like gatekeeping to me.
This whole thing sounds a lot like gatekeeping to me.
Only if you consider downhill to be gatekept.
In a sense it is because the level of skill, equipment, and preparation is such that no one who doesn't focus exclusively on DH is likely to even qualify, let alone win.
The fact that XC doesn't have those barriers mean that it's always going to be seen as a bit second rate.
If everyone is cool with XC racing being seen as second rate road/CX racing then that's fine, I guess. But no one sees DH as a second rate anything.
Can't really be done, unless you turn it into downhill, where skill/stupidity/blindness to potential for life changing injury is *everything*.
Within the current Olympic guidelines, probably not.
XC courses are incredibly man made compared to DH or Enduro. Perhaps there is some scope to increase the naturalness of the courses and require a higher level of I guess what we would call general MTB skills. Instead there seems to have been a trend to make big scary looking features that have high consequences for getting it wrong without necessarily increasing the technical skill requirements.
Saying all that, there does seem to be a bit of a buzz about short travel trail bikes lately. ie, bikes with more 'trail' geometry but with only 100-120mm travel. I really want to try something like this and from what I'm reading they are surprisingly capable on trails people have been assuming you need a minimum of 160mm travel to ride.
We'll see what happens, I guess.
It doesn't have those barriers, because putting barriers like that in stops it being XC.The fact that XC doesn't have those barriers mean that it's always going to be seen as a bit second rate.
And it's going to remain second rate because the money isn't good enough for enough riders to focus on it exclusively.
Yeah that's called Enduro.
I can't see in world in where I agree with any of your last sets of posts on here. Just because someone can do more than 1 thing doesn't make it wrong.
I kind of agree with BruceWee, it does make XC look a bit second-best if roadies can just saunter in and claim a podium whenever they feel like a change of scene.
But. Is there actually enough money in XC to make a pure XC focus a viable career option, excepting a very few? Looks like a 10th place finish at a world cup round will net you about £1k in prize money. I don't know how good team salaries are, but you'd need a significant income from sponsorship and coaching etc to cover your expenses and make that into something vaguely liveable.
When you say "Roadies" you mean 2 men and 1 woman, in the whole world. Plenty of roadies have come into both CX and XC and done poorly. VdP is a generational talent on a bike who destroys races in whatever he races, not because XC is easy, but because he has 1000w to play with. Pidcock is again an exception, but he was a MTBer before a roadie...
If you think back to the early days of enduro it was kind of seen as the semi-retirement stage of a DH racers career. As it grew the demands on riders became greater and greater until it wasn't possible for DH racers to just turn up and win. Enduro went from being seen as second rate compared to DH to being a respected discipline in it's own right. And then to whatever the hell it is today.
You get people switching between Enduro and DH (perhaps with some Red Bull Rampage thrown in for good measure) and you get people switching between XC, CX, and Road.
Perhaps that's just the way it's going to be as it's not possible to move XC a bit closer to Enduro so that it's no longer possible to easily make the jump from CX or Road.
Saying that, if I was an XC race organiser I'd be at least a little worried about gravel racing. The last gravel race I watched looked amazing following the racers through Italian vineyards.
Although it's all academic now given I'm not watching nearly as much cycling since GCN shut up shop.
Plenty of roadies have come into both CX and XC and done poorly.
Just out of interest, which riders are you thinking of here when it comes to XC?
You get people switching between Enduro and DH (perhaps with some Red Bull Rampage thrown in for good measure) and you get people switching between XC, CX, and Road.
Perhaps that's just the way it's going to be as it's not possible to move XC a bit closer to Enduro so that it's no longer possible to easily make the jump from CX or Road.
Saying that, if I was an XC race organiser I'd be at least a little worried about gravel racing. The last gravel race I watched looked amazing following the racers through Italian vineyards.
I think there is a bit more to come in the rad-ifying of XC. If that pushes some riders to gravel racing or even trying their hand on the road, then I'll happily seee them go.
There's a longstanding (and maybe historically accurate) feeling that XC is dirt-roadying* but the off road skills and tactics are the decider these days. This is best seen when one of the top riders has a mechanical and has to fight their way back to the front. If it was purely fitness then they would never get back, as their rivals at the fornt would be able to match them. But having a short term goal to get back on, they can step it up a notch and ride past the 20-30 ranked riders like they are nothing. Putting out a kilowatt is no good if you cant manage the rear wheel over off camber roots while you do it, or hold the speed through the next corner - and that seems to be what vdp has forgotten.
*the dirt roadies still exist, getting in the way of midpack amateurs downhill because they are disproportionally good at climbing - but in the pro field I think they are long gone.
...there does seem to be a bit of a buzz about short travel trail bikes lately. ie, bikes with more 'trail' geometry but with only 100-120mm travel. I really want to try something like this and from what I'm reading they are surprisingly capable on trails people have been assuming you need a minimum of 160mm travel to ride.
I've said before that I think the next gen of XC bikes are going to be the pinnacle of non-electric bikes. (With the exception of the small niche of lift served downhill) a bike that handles and is strong enough for what people today are using "trail bikes" for - thats going to be the level self powered riders are going to want, if they are also having to climb on them - and also making flat/traverse trails fun.
OK, off the top of my heah Joshua Dubau, awesome in XC, average in CX.
Tim Merlier is incredible on the road, but not as incredible in CX.
Alan Hatherley for example, incredible in XC, but not quite hitting it at road...
I could google and find loads more over various years, but well, it's not quite as cut and dried as "anyone can..."
Vermeersch (both) , Arensman, Stybar.
Then of course you've got riders like Nys who who do road pretty well and CX pretty well.
As for damaging his 2025 TDF? Meh,
Yep I am fairly sure MVdP has done levtour the last two years because his team sponsors want him to, he just uses it as a training block to build for the Worlds...does this make le tour a joke, like when he swans into an xc race? Of course not.
does this make le tour a joke, like when he swans into an xc race? Of course not
Yes, when your sponsors are pressuring you to do a particular race that generally suggests the race isn't a joke.
I somehow doubt MvdP and Pidcock's sponsors are pressuring them to take part in mountain bike races. The possible exception might be an Olympic year, but even then I'm pretty sure sponsors would prefer a decent show in the TdF.
but even then I'm pretty sure sponsors would prefer a decent show in the TdF.
For a rider of his talent the last two le tours have been ridiculously poor.
I think/thought that Van der Poel was after an mtb world chaps shirt to make a better "set"
Whether he'll ever come back again is debatable but I bet if he won the WC he'd be much less likely to come back
... except that just maybe his sponsors want overall profile rather than just attendance at road races that he can't really do much "more" with - road fans know his qualities and the classics are where he really belongs and shines. A few more grand tour stages isn't really going to change much there as he's MASSIVE already in that audience's eyes. Same with cross.
I don't want to not see any road/CX riders at XC races. I just want the discipline to be sufficiently different from road/CX that you can't jump into XC with limited focus and preparation and expect to win. Or even qualify.
This just makes no sense though? I think there are only 2 riders that are getting you upset. Pidcock is better at technical xc riding than pretty much all of the field. Especially in the wet. Fluckiger maybe bit faster but takes more risks i don't think its control / skill advantage? So how will you make a course that excludes him from strong chance of winning? Probably a flat non technical one is what you'd need for that.
Mvdp alright hes had his crash but if you make it too hard for him its still not a big enough group that remain competitive. Hes decent enough on his bike especially given his size / power
These guys are both mtbers that like riding mtbs, are good at it and do it regularly. Especially Pidcock
It seems like you don't actually follow any of the xc racing and you've just read some headlines and got the wrong impression?
This just makes no sense though? I think there are only 2 riders that are getting you upset. Pidcock is better at technical xc riding than pretty much all of the field. Especially in the wet. Fluckiger maybe bit faster but takes more risks i don't think its control / skill advantage? So how will you make a course that excludes him from strong chance of winning? Probably a flat non technical one is what you'd need for that.
Well, yes, that's the question I've been asking. How can a rider whose main focus is not mtb be able to not only blow the field away in terms of power but also be on a par (or even a level above) in the required tech skills.
Pidcock has said he wants to do Downhill racing and MvdP has said he wants to try Enduro. The fact they haven't shows that there is something about these disciplines that would make the jump from their bread and butter to big.
As mentioned above, XC has always had a reputation as being for dirt roadies. The town I was living in ten years ago had a mountain bike group but their mountain biking was probably at least 40% tarmac and 60% on unsealed roads. These were the guys riding what you would call XC race bikes and you would see them out and about everywhere.
Nowadays there are fewer and fewer of these types of bikes around as anyone who was riding XC bikes is now riding gravel bikes and it suits their needs much better.
What you are starting to see (although the emphasis is definitely 'starting') is people on shorter travel trail bikes. Still hitting the same lines they were on their bigger bikes but having more fun (so they say and it definitely makes sense).
A push for XC courses that require bikes with more trail geometry wouldn't be a bad thing for us consumers, I reckon, in terms of available bike geometries. Hopefully without just putting in more and bigger moderate tech, high consequence artificial features
It seems like you don't actually follow any of the xc racing and you've just read some headlines and got the wrong impression?
Yep, I haven't watched any XC since GCN shut down. Unless it's MvdP going up against Tom Pidcock (and preferably without both of them having to start 6 rows back) then it's difficult to really see it as an 'occasion'.
This is not an issue in DH. There has never been a race where a top contender hasn't shown up because they are too busy riding motocross.
That's like asking how Lamin Yamal can be so amazing at 17 or Littler be the best in the world at 17 in Darts etc, because they're not the normal, they're the exceptions. Every now and again someone comes along on the planet who's simply better than the rest. Whether they cross-over into other aspects doesn't really come into it. There's very few sports where a cross-over is possible because there's rarely multi-disciplines within a sport. Would it be baffling if someone in skiing could do slalom and Super G really well, no, because it's a variation on a theme.
XC racing may be 'different' in terms of tech skills, but it comes down a lot to power and fitness, both of which VdP and Pidcock have a plenty. They don't NEED to be the best in terms of descents, but it helps they're pretty handy of course.
I don't understand why it's so weird to you. Martin Maes and Ritchie Rude did amazingly at DH last week in Poland, should that not be possible? Well of course it should, I see it in juniors week in week out, a kid comes into a race who no-one has seen, destroys most and then you look at his results, he's been destroying Enduro races as well... It's a cross-over of skills.
Look at riders like Hattie Harnden, won everything at XC, then won everything at Enduro and now is flying in DH... using your logic that shouldn't be possible either.
But the fact there are Enduro riders who can also ride Downhill and Downhill riders who can also ride Enduro kind of proves my point.
There are no riders who are primarily Downhill who, every so often, turn up at an Enduro race and everyone expects them to win. Likewise, there are no Enduro racers who are expected to win when their schedule allows them to do a Downhill race.
That's not to say that riders can't switch focus and go from being primarily Downhill riders to primarily being Enduro riders and vice versa. The skillset is similar enough that a tweak in training and focus means they can be competitive in both. But again, generally not at the same time (Martin Maes being the exception that proves the rule and his win still came as something of a surprise and hasn't been repeated since).
MvdP and Pidcock do not have to switch focus. They are primarily road racers (or CX racers during the winter) who win XC races when their schedule allows.
And that is why XC is seen as second rate compared to road while Enduro isn't seen as second rate compared to DH (or rather, it wasn't when it was still relevant).
If you are quite happy having XC, CX, and Road in one competitive group and DH and Enduro in another then that's fine. I, on the other hand, would like to see XC move away from road and more towards Enduro.
But that's a personal preference and I completely understand if others have other preferences.
But the fact there are Enduro riders who can also ride Downhill and Downhill riders who can also ride Enduro kind of proves my point.
MAybe in your opinion. It feels to me like you're bringing your political standpoint of "i'm right and you're wrong" to this debate as well, which mostly stops it being a debate.
I honestly can't see how you can make XC more Enduro without it being Enduro. The courses, the tech, the terrain are already massively harder than anything that used to exist. 20 years ago the XC course of was a DH course 🙂
XC is see as second rate by who ? You ? Not anyone else, not the people who pay the money, go to the races, get sponsors, pay salaries more than DH.
One big thing you're forgetting is MONEY. VdP, Pidcock, WvA can earn a good chunk of wages when there's no road stuff on in CX season. With DH and Enduro often being on the same weekend, a rider can't do both. Hence why things like the Tasmania races etc are getting more popular along with the Red Bull Cerro Abajo races which are run at a time when DH racing isn't on. But you can't expect a Bruni to skip a DH weekend to earn less money just to prove a point.
while Enduro isn't seen as second rate compared to DH (or rather, it wasn't when it was still relevant).
What ???? i mean really .... WHAT ? Even when Enduro was at it's peak it was the bas7ard step-child of DH at best... now it barely exists outside of pinkbike articles.
(yes that saddens me as i love an Enduro event to watch)
MAybe in your opinion. It feels to me like you're bringing your political standpoint of "i'm right and you're wrong" to this debate as well, which mostly stops it being a debate.
Honestly, the last thing I said in my post was that this is how I see it, this would be my preference, and I understand if others have a different opinion and preference.
The reason I keep replying is because it honestly feels that people are not understanding what I am trying to say. I get examples and explanations that really seem to be arguing against a different point than the one I'm trying to make.
I honestly can't see how you can make XC more Enduro without it being Enduro. The courses, the tech, the terrain are already massively harder than anything that used to exist. 20 years ago the XC course of was a DH course 🙂
The current format of XC races has been much the same for the last 30 years. And being an Olympic sport means the format is very important which means that XC racing is very limited in how it can evolve in relation to what the wider mountain biking community is doing.
Like I said, most of the people I used to see on XC bikes ten years ago are now riding gravel bikes. In addition, we are seeing more and more technically capable short travel bikes becoming available.
It's always a bit chicken and egg. Do race formats exist because of the available equipment or is the current available equipment dictated by the most popular race formats. Or a little of both.
The increase in tech that I've seen in XC has often come from high consequence features that look spectacular but without necessarily needing top level technical skills, if that makes sense.
I think XC could benefit from looking at some of the DH and Enduro courses. I'd like to see more wide taping on freshly cut areas of forest. It seems like XC values a predictable course over changeable terrain, which is always going to tend toward high consequence single features.
What ???? i mean really .... WHAT ? Even when Enduro was at it's peak it was the bas7ard step-child of DH at best... now it barely exists outside of pinkbike articles.
I think that's unfair. Even just looking at the PB salary surveys it seems like Enduro riders were at a minimum on the same salaries as DH racers. Maybe even a bit more.
And again, there was no one who was primarily a DH racer who you would think, 'If xxxx was at this race they would win.'
At its peak I'd say interest in Enduro was on a par with DH. Obviously the way it was consumed was different as it didn't lend itself to live viewing but people were definitely following it and I don't think the riders from either discipline so the other as 'less than'.
How can a rider whose main focus is not mtb be able to not only blow the field away in terms of power but also be on a par (or even a level above) in the required tech skills.
Because they have more talent, bucket loads more talent.
If half the xc MTB field had the talent to get paid more on the road they would. I think you are looking at it the wrong way round though. MVdP and TP are off-road racers who have switched to road to increase earnings, so has Wout Van Aert but he only did cross not MTB..I really do t see why it's an issue.
If half the xc MTB field had the talent to get paid more on the road they would.
This is exactly my point. It is not a good look if half the field is only doing it because they aren't good enough for Road.
At the moment Road, CX, and XC exist on one track. Enduro and Downhill on another. Many riders switch within these tracks but very few make the jump between them. And if they do they are unlikely to be making that jump multiple times per season. MvdP and Pidcock have said they'd like to race Enduro and DH but they haven't so clearly there is something stopping them.
What I, (me personally and other opinions are certainly valid) would like to see is XC evolve so that the parallel tracks are more Road/CX on one track and XC/Enduro/DH on another (and before anyone says anything, no, I don't want to see any artificial barriers, just a natural grouping that is different to the natural grouping we currently have).
In terms of the wider sport, gravel has taken one chunk of the traditional XC bike rider market while more capable short travel trail bikes could take another.
If it doesn't evolve XC could become a sort of weird throwback that only exists because it's a second tier Olympic category and doesn't really bear much resemblance to what the wider community is doing.
Isn't there also a sort of acceleration of fitness and training if you're able to make the cut and go pro-roadie? I.e. take someone of maybe midpack technical ability on an XC mountainbike and apply years of professional CX and Road training and salary, and suddenly you've got a world-beater?
I'd assumed that was the case with MvdP and Tom Pidcock, i.e. already very very good MTBers (TP more so?) who went pro roadie and got exponentially fitter, which in MvdP's case might make up for technical rustiness and in TP's case just means he can storm from the back of the field to winning.
And for what it's worth, I've always felt XC was stuck in some weird in-between status, modern tracks just seem too contrived (even more so that CX tracks which is a weird thing to say, but at least CX revels in the deterioration of a track in adverse conditions). I want to see CX races that look like an hour of the HT550! 🤣
Bruce - it will never transition into your two separate parallel paths of xc/dh/enduro and road/CX.
The fitness needed to race xc needs lots of road miles, so there will always be crossover on that front as the training is complimentary. Training off road is great and is in the mix, but it is too varied to get the sustained riding at x level for x time to get the structured fitness gains. If you make the courses more technical, then you need fitness even more (because you still have to pedal up and recover to do your super technical dh bits).
Also do the maths - being faster on the slow bits (uphill) makes more difference to a lap time than being faster on the fast (dh) bits.
And nowadays, your average "recreational" mtber seems to be on an ebike, so I'm not sure why xc racing has to change or will ever appeal to them.
At National level, the names I recognise from xc also appear in CX, gravel and enduro.
MvDP was already a talented roadie / cx rider who decided to try xco rather than “…already very very good MTBers…who went pro roadie and got exponentially fitter”. His early palmares is littered with road and cx wins and he rode the junior worlds road race
At the moment Road, CX, and XC exist on one track. Enduro and Downhill on another
XC is already on the same track as DH & Enduro - the track of cycling sports that nobody watches and that’s possibly why half the field is only doing it because they aren't good enough for road. 😉
Bruce - it will never transition into your two separate parallel paths of xc/dh/enduro and road/CX.
As long as XC is an Olympic discipline I would agree. The requirements of Olympic courses really limit the freedom to fully take advantage of things like 'Downcountry' bikes (or whatever they are called this week).
The current 'single line' sculpted style of downhill and tech on XC tracks means that even if you were able to go significantly faster than someone else on the downs it wouldn't do you any good if you were stuck behind them with no way of passing.
But if short travel trail bikes continue to get more popular and develop eventually some people are going to want to race them on an appropriate track so perhaps a new discipline will start to emerge.
Like I said at the start of the thread, a sort of 4X but you do laps and pedal to the top.
This is exactly my point. It is not a good look if half the field is only doing it because they aren't good enough for Road.
Most of the field races xc because they chose mountain biking, like racing off road and it suits their skillset. If they wanted to do road they would. If they weren't good enough they would find a career outside of cycling.
Riding and watching lycra clad XC as we know it now and how it has been for a good while remains popular in europe, africa, central/latin america and other places. The UK is the outlier.
Isn't there also a sort of acceleration of fitness and training if you're able to make the cut and go pro-roadie?
I presume the difference is largely going to be from being a pro MTBer which often just means working elsewhere in the industry and racing at weekends, to being able to ride 40 hours a week. And the inevitable step up in professionalism with things like coaches, physios, chefs etc employed by the team, not just on an ad-hock basis.
Most of the field races xc because they chose mountain biking, like racing off road and it suits their skillset. If they wanted to do road they would.
I'm not so sure about that. Sam Gaze is an example of a top level mountain biker (World Cup wins, 2x short track and marathon World Champion) who is passionate about Road racing but has really struggled to break into it.
Riding and watching lycra clad XC as we know it now and how it has been for a good while remains popular in europe, africa, central/latin america and other places. The UK is the outlier.
Ten years ago I would probably have agreed with you. Now, however, while I used to see loads of people on XC mountain bikes riding unpaved roads, now the vast majority of these type of riders are on gravel bikes.
I'm mean, they've always been 'gravel bikers' but where they used to call themselves mountain bikers they now call themselves gravel bikers.
It's a small shift but it can't have done much for the demand for traditional XC race bikes.
Bruce. You really don't get the maths. In a circuit race, you have the same amount of height gain / loss each lap. No matter how open and free choice the dh bit, the fittest and reasonably technically ok guy will still lap faster (short of offering two line choices - ride off a cliff Vs zigzag 20 times across the hillside). I understand you'd like to see an open choice of dh lines, but it will make little difference to who wins.
MvDP was already a talented roadie / cx rider who decided to try xco rather than “…already very very good MTBers…who went pro roadie and got exponentially fitter”. His early palmares is littered with road and cx wins and he rode the junior worlds road race
D'oh, yeah, I sort of mangled the point I was trying to make there. With respect to MvdP I meant it's more a case of someone who was already 'good' at XC but due to being a pro roadie could layer on top of that a huge amount of fitness and access to all the training and resource that being a pro roadie brings. Not that he went from Pro XC to Pro road and back.
I presume the difference is largely going to be from being a pro MTBer which often just means working elsewhere in the industry and racing at weekends, to being able to ride 40 hours a week.
Well that's what I was wondering, I figured pro road teams would have much bigger budget and resource for training athletes, as opposed to pro XC teams. So even as someone who already had access to all the resources that a professional XC racer has, could benefit hugely by getting access to pro road team resources?
But if we're talking about people making a joke of things, what about Pogacar? Evidently there still physiological gifts or training methods out there that can make one pro-roadie make the rest of them look like amateurs, or of course MvdP vs. the rest when it comes to CX...
t's a small shift but it can't have done much for the demand for traditional XC race bikes.
Until people realise that most of their gravel is better ridden on a fast XC bike 🤣 (a conclusion I've been resisting for years but have suddenly come around to).
Until people realise that most of their gravel is better ridden on a fast XC bike 🤣 (a conclusion I've been resisting for years but have suddenly come around to).
Must be why gravel bikes are slowly turning into mountain bikes. Various top gravel racers are on full size xc race tyres now. Have heard full suspension gravel frames are coming this year too.
Bruce. You really don't get the maths. In a circuit race, you have the same amount of height gain / loss each lap. No matter how open and free choice the dh bit, the fittest and reasonably technically ok guy will still lap faster (short of offering two line choices - ride off a cliff Vs zigzag 20 times across the hillside). I understand you'd like to see an open choice of dh lines, but it will make little difference to who wins.
I understand that the vast majority of the time is spent climbing.
However, what I don't think you understand is just how much energy can actually be saved by people who are technically exceptional vs technically proficient. That energy then benefits them then entire way up the next climb.
This is all assuming the track is sufficiently natural.
As it is today an XC course has to basically finish the weekend in much the same condition as it starts. DH courses change from run to run. Once an XC racer has learned the course then the benefits to someone who is technically exceptional are much reduced.
It could turn out you are 100% correct but I'm generally of the opinion things should be tried out before stating with 100% confidence what will or won't happen.
Must be why gravel bikes are slowly turning into mountain bikes. Various top gravel racers are on full size xc race tyres now. Have heard full suspension gravel frames are coming this year too.
Don't forget that while all this is happening Road bikes are gradually turning into Gravel bikes.
What are road tyres up to now? 32mm?
Pidcock has said he wants to do Downhill racing and MvdP has said he wants to try Enduro. The fact they haven't shows that there is something about these disciplines that would make the jump from their bread and butter to big.Yes, there's no money and no publicity in either compared to road, or, to be quite frank, CX (especially in the cycling heartlands where at least MVdP is based.)
Yes, there's no money and no publicity in either compared to road, or, to be quite frank, CX (especially in the cycling heartlands where at least MVdP is based.)
I think VDP is purely interested in a rainbow jersey (to complete his set) or olympic medal (he's already 30, its likely he's got one olympics left at the top of his form, if the 2028 olympic road course doesn't suit him then mtb is his best chance to get one)
Either of those are good publicity. Random XCO wins, probably not.