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Telling it as it is. Great role models.
👍
Great. Heres' another amazing role model who rides bikes( in mountains).
It's a nice vid.
But does anyone really say any of the things Rob said "they say"? I've always known it to be a very inclusive sport.
Likes
also been following Mel Nicholls GB Para cyclist on FB, inspirational
I have to disagree mtb is not a inclusive sport, it is trying especially with the coverage in fact the red bull stuff is light years ahead of many sports but try the local trail centre it is predomiantley white males.
I have to disagree mtb is not a inclusive sport, it is trying especially with the coverage in fact the red bull stuff is light years ahead of many sports but try the local trail centre it is predomiantley white males.
Yes but thats by choice, not because the Trail centre or the bike-selling website has a sign saying "no women". anyone can buy a bike, ride a trail and enter a race, just because less women might so than men does not make it a prejudicial sport.
But does anyone really say any of the things Rob said “they say”? I’ve always known it to be a very inclusive sport.
I think 95% of 'cyclists'* are fine. But you still see/hear stuff that's a bit cringeworthy. One of the ladies in the cycling club had this conversation in the comments on one of here strava rides (abridge version, and not exact quotes)
Slightly pervy guy : "sorry for any offence caused" (so something obviously happened on the ride)
"forget about it, I just wanted to get on and ride"
slightly pervy guy "so can I have your number then?"
"f*** off"
And from another forumite on the e-bike thread
five male riders who surrounded my eldest daughter attempting to stay with her on a climb to slow her down and chat her up, and then got abusive when she asked them to leave her alone
And I'd go out on a limb and assume that anything I/we are actually aware of is probably only the tip of an iceberg.
Even in our road club the average 'steady' group has 2-3 women and 10-15 men in it through the summer. And to the best of my knowledge none of us are being dicks. Yet when there's a women's ride publicised (not every week) at the same pace they can outnumber the men? So something is off putting even if it's not us deliberately.
I have to disagree mtb is not a inclusive sport, it is trying especially with the coverage in fact the red bull stuff is light years ahead of many sports but try the local trail centre it is predomiantley white males.
Agreed. Whilst we're not Golf or actively keeping anyone out of the sport, we lack the critical mass of women, or any other ethnicity apart from white that's maybe needed to attract more people from those groups into cycling. Without wanting to sound like I'm apologizing for men being dicks, I suspect a lot of them wouldn't do it if they didn't outnumber women by 1000's to 1, both because there's no one to call them out and because that 1in1000 is a novelty that get's attention.
*inverted commas signifying we're already eliminating anyone who fails at "don't be a dick" and therefore not someone you'd like to think of as a 'cyclist' but merely someone on a bike.
Czech bike company Superior Bikes certainly strongly suggested that women couldn't do proper mountain biking back in 2015:
https://www.outsideonline.com/1991986/worlds-most-sexist-bike-company
Cultural. The figures show women are less active than men, period.
I will concede that they're massively underrepresented in MTB though. But again, girls aren't generally taught to roll in the mud and play in the woods from a young age, like boys do.
Not that they're *excluded* at all.
I think things like this are good, if a little patronising. Some girls need the push, so everything helps.
Yes but thats by choice, not because the Trail centre or the bike-selling website has a sign saying “no women”. anyone can buy a bike, ride a trail and enter a race, just because less women might so than men does not make it a prejudicial sport.
Unfortunately women, and others, choose not enter because it is prejudical and discriminatory this sport of mountain biking , just look at the numbers by not being inclusive it creates and atmosphere of not wishing to be involved or it is not for me.
all credit to hope for their womens rides at gisburn and the women only enduro but the sport still has a basic participatory problem at a grass roots level.
still has a basic participatory problem at a grass roots level.
They need to get out then? This weekend our club put on a well represented Women's Sportive. I was racing yesterday, and in the kids races it was pretty much a higher ratio - 33% girls.
TINAS makes some minor points, but its not all about "perving" on a bike any more than any other situation. Yes it happens, and sometimes appropriately as relationships are forged - again like any other situation.
I firmly believe you entered this thread to stoke up an argument that doesn't exist. Yes, there's under representation if you feel all things should be equal, but in general and certainly in this country there's very few barriers to riding a mountain bike, or any other bike regardless of your gender or ethnicity.
but its not all about “perving” on a bike any more than any other situation. Yes it happens, and sometimes appropriately as relationships are forged – again like any other situation.
True, but it must be off putting if you're the only woman for miles around having to deal with every single (and not so single) macho man for miles around.
It doesn't cover "I'm catching up with a woman on the singletrack", but I think the Rock test still covers how to deal with the fairer sex on the trails.
Kryton, if you believe that there is not sexism, discrimination, underrepresentation or barriers to entering the mtb world if you are a female then I am afraid you are mistaken, the whole commentary you have made suggests 'they' need to get out - by they i assume you mean women - and this is part of the issue- blame - rather than reflecting society wide women are discriminated against (glass ceiling and so on) mountain biking reflects the same issues. The arguement exists and is supported by articles here on singletrack that there are immense barriers to riding a mountain bike if you are a women from the casual sexism on the trail, to harassment, to expectation of what a woman can or cannot do through to just plain access.
i did not come to argue but read a point that i commented on as a father and partner whose daughters and partners face when they mountain bike.
Yes but thats by choice, not because the Trail centre or the bike-selling website has a sign saying “no women”. anyone can buy a bike, ride a trail and enter a race, just because less women might so than men does not make it a prejudicial sport.
There's a fair bit more to being inclusive than simply not having signs saying "no wimmin or ethnics" at the start of the trail. A huge difference between saying women aren't prevented and saying that they are welcomed. I'd even take issue with "anyone can buy a bike" based on the (copious number of) stories you read on social media of women not being treated seriously in bike shops. And the culture works both ways and comes from the customer base too - the stories of customers in bike shops who cannot comprehend that the female member of staff they are talking to is a highly trained and competent mechanic.
Sports can't be prejudicial, but people sure as hell can, and for anyone to think there's no prejudice in mountain biking / cycling generally, certainly regarding gender, must be pretty blind. Was it Cycling Weekly that ran a report on a club and captioned a picture of some female riders that basically suggested their purpose was as eye candy? That infamous review (Pinkbike I think) that suggested the best comparator for "highly compliant" was a drunken girlfriend, etc etc etc.
Anyone may be able to enter a race, but if they are female will they be racing for the same prizes as if they were male? That doesn't just matter to those in contention for a prize, it's the message it broadcasts about how different groups are valued and respected (or not).
If you think that being inclusive just means not actively preventing participation, then you don't understand what "inclusive" means.
I just thought it was a good little promotional video.
The fact that the XCO elite females decided to put it out there must speak volumes about their opinion & experiences on the subject.
Bottom line is..... just go ride your bike 🙂
PS - the thing that struck me most about it was the warm, feel good factor of it that exposes the riders as people with lives outside of racing limelight, as opposed to the sex of the riders themselves.
Bicker away, I'm off out for a ride.
I went to La Bresse the other week to watch the DH & XC races. A female friend of ours came alone who pretty much does not ride a bike, she has one and has used it once or twice in the last 7 or 8 years.
After meeting Yolanda Neff for a chat, and watching the races, women's in particular, she is now hooked and inspired.
But again, girls aren’t generally taught to roll in the mud and play in the woods from a young age, like boys do.
Sigh. This times a bazillion, still 🙁
My niece (10 this year) rocks. She's into kickboxing and she loves bikes. I gave her a decent bike for her birthday this year so hopefully she'll stick with doing the stuff she enjoys as she gets older. Fingers crossed...
I did a local DH yesterday and of the 92 entrants, there were seven women (three in the 19-29 class and 4 of us in the 30+ class). No younger women/girls had entered but there was a good turnout of younger (12-18) lads. I think the older you get the less ****s you give about what people think, which might explain the lack of younger women entering races or just riding about on bikes.
edit-
Anyone may be able to enter a race, but if they are female will they be racing for the same prizes as if they were male?
In the case of the DH I did yesterday, yes. Just a bag of stuff the bike shop sponsoring the event put together to give away. Same (useful bits and bobs- no XXXXXL roadie shorts or anything like that!) stuff in every 1st, 2nd and 3rd place bag for 6 or 7 classes.
Czech bike company Superior Bikes certainly strongly suggested that women couldn’t do proper mountain biking back in 2015
They haven't got much better... "https://superiorbikes.eu/en/modo" 😆
Thats a great video I think. Never watched much XC, big DH fan, but getting more interested after learning more about the women competing and seeing just how tough it is and how brilliant they are.
Personally, as a 38yo female rider, I think cycling is pretty damn good when it comes to inclusively and discrimination. I work in a male dominated industry and believe me I know what it's like to be discriminated against due to my sex, and is rarely been an issue in the 8-9 years I've been riding bikes. I've had far more positive experiences than bad and definitely think there's been a real shift these past few years.
I saw someone post negative comments on the BBC Sport website story about Rachel Athertons win yesterday and the response from male riders and fans was fantastic, full of respect and no sleazy comments or innuendo. Would you get that in other sports? No. Absolutely not.
Cycling isn't perfect but it's a much better place to be as a woman than most others!
Sports can’t be prejudicial, but people sure as hell can, and for anyone to think there’s no prejudice in mountain biking / cycling generally, certainly regarding gender, must be pretty blind.
^^This^^
There's always a bit of unconscious bias in everyone, affecting the way they treat others depending on context, we're talking rather specifically about women and mountain biking here, but I think the same could be true of just about every other minority group and mountain biking, it's still quite a "Pale Male" pursuit...
That's not a criticism of the sport, or indeed it's, mostly while, mostly male, participants, simply a fact that needs to be acknowledged before it can be addressed.
Just on the anecdotal level with absolutely no statistics to back it up, I have noticed a lot more women out on road bikes in the last couple of years but still not that many on mtbs. It maybe that roadies are a lot more obvious than mtbers but in my roadie club we have a small but keen group of women who come on rides but in the more informal mtb group we have one woman who rarely comes out.
I do think that regular male riders underestimate the barriers to participation. There are plenty of men who won't go out with clubs or organised groups for fear of being shown up so how much more must this apply to women who have additional layers of sexism and noxious macho behaviour to put up with.
Lots of people think they need some kind of 'permission' (right bike, right tyres, big enough suspension, right kit) to get out and ride instead of just getting the **** on with it.
For women, it's really important to look good in any situation. Not only during ordinary daily activities, but also when they want to enjoy their hobbies such as cycling.
For some women, it’s really important to look good in any situation. Not only during ordinary daily activities, but also when they want to enjoy their hobbies such as cycling.
Dunno if that was a jokey trolly post or not, but I've fixed it for you 🙂
It's a quote from my link up there! ^^
As is
"Ladies want to be exceptional. As a professional racer, whether it‘s for a race, training or a fun ride. When you manage to match everything with the bike, you will feel that much better, more confident and stronger. you can then go out and really enjoy a difficult training, race, or an outing with friends from your ladies‘ biking community."
The enlightened Czechs 😆
But again, girls aren’t generally taught to roll in the mud and play in the woods from a young age, like boys do.
It's this - my partner has only discovered mountain biking since I have been in her life - it's her favourite thing to do now.
She was totally unaware of it's existence growing up - & like others have said, bike shops can be intimidating places if you don't know anything about bikes or what you want or need.
There are quite a few articles written about barriers to sporting participation.
five male riders who surrounded my eldest daughter attempting to stay with her on a climb to slow her down and chat her up, and then got abusive when she asked them to leave her alone
That's ****ing depressing, as is the other equally shit stuff above.
When I first started visiting Trail Centres about 2005 it was pretty rare to see a Female rider, and really if you did they tended to be (on first impression anyway) the long suffering partner of a Male rider dragged along.
Over the years things have got a lot better, these days, especially I'll say at FOD TC and BPW it's, I would guess about a 70/30 split. I fancy that's much better than any football or golf club.
Again, first trip to Morzine in 2007 it was almost like the Land that Ladies forgot, Lads on the lifts, Lads on the Trails, Lad's in the Shops and Bars, frankly when we were going a few years later and a single mate was coming for his only summer hols and hoping for a bit of a holiday romance, we told him not to hold his breath. This summer though there were female riders everywhere, and kids it's great to see.
Anyway, I'm rambling again, I've being encouraging my Daughter to cycle since she was old enough to walk and always hoped she'd want to follow me into the woods one day without any of this bullshit.
Pretty good video imo. Really hard to not come across cheesy in these types of thing.
I've met loads of women who ride bikes, most have had do deal with perving, being talked down to, being overtaken as it's assumed they are slow, being cut infront of at trail entrances so they don't hold the fellas up.
Some of those have won some fairly decent races in a few disciplines, then get flung an odd sized mens t-shirt or something like that.
I can see why the popularity of women only rides, races and meet ups is on the up.
It's not as if in general western blokes have a bit of a blind spot for the good old casual sexism and don't always see what is going on.
One of the girls in my (mixed sex) circle of riding friends wrote this.....
She loves a good bit of mansplaining, as it is usually blokes dishing out the unsolicited advice 🙂
Edit: I don't think any of them are me
+1 for Morzine this year, loved the mix of bloke's, families and woman - everyone there just to ride bikes in an awesome environment regardless of sex/ability/bike brand etc
That was another thing I really liked about Vallnord , there seemed to be quite a few ladies tearing it up.
In fairness I could have wrote the same thing only starting “being a Man and a relatively new mountain biker”. There’s always a gobshite who loves to tell you how great they are by passing on the fruits of their experience.
I ****ing hate the phrase ‘Mansplaining’ it’s spitefully sexist.
I **** hate the phrase ‘Mansplaining’ it’s spitefully sexist.
I think women particularly ****ing hate men explaining things to them as if they don't know what is going on in an overly simplistic way or just the assumption that a pair of testicles makes you an expert. It's a very fair term in my book - if it is a subconscious thing then such an abrupt term might help to get people thinking about what is going on.
Apart from the odd gobshite (had a right one a few weeks back, very keen to give out needless bad advice) I've really not had much unsolicited advice, which is contrary to the experience of a few of the girls I ride with.
I think women particularly **** hate men explaining things to them as if they don’t know what is going on in an overly simplistic way
Nah, I’d say Men hate it broadly the same as Women do, we just assume that the patronising prick doing it, is doing for another reason.
Maybe I’m living in some parallel universe but I’ve not encountered these “issues” you all speak of while out mountain biking. I’ve not been condescended to, or “perved at”. I’ve not seen more “alpha males” in mtb than there are in the workplace,the gym, or down the pub.
I’ve entered lots of events where women have been a minority, ridden loads of trail centres and natural trails, done 6 mtb trips in the Alps and I always feel totally comfortable.
I’m happy to go on rides with women or men (though I actively avoid all-women events and groups thanks to negative experiences with all-women groups - in any walk of life).
One of my regular cycling partners is female and fast downhill (podium of Canadian Trans BC series fast). If we're out riding with people who don't really know us it's always amusing at the start of a descent to see the unknown men (and it's always men) push to the front of the group on the assumption they'll be fastest only to have their tire buzzed within seconds.
If reasons for unequal take up of biking is being sought shouldn't we include a definite lack of ethnic groups too? To see what links the two and what differentiates?
Wouldn't that give a clearer view of inclusion and exclusion?
Girls? You mean women?
Having really looked forward to my first trip at BPW I didn’t enjoy it quite as much as I had expected. One of the things putting me off was the huge amount of willy waving machoism all around. You could smell the testosterone as you got on the bus. Large groups of middle age men acting as if they were teenagers in a gang on a night out! Maybe I’m a big softy but I actually found it a bit intimidating at times
I can quite easily see how it could put off anyone who doesn’t fit their stereotype. It’s definitely put me off taking my 10yr lad who’s more than capable of riding the blues.
tomj, the 2 times I’ve been to BPW midweek consisted of small friendly groups, all chatting to each other on the bus, asking and giving tips and advice, a few women and kids as well.
Don’t be put off.
the huge amount of willy waving machoism all around. You could smell the testosterone as you got on the bus.
What surprised me at BPW was the variety of people who do mountain biking, from middle-aged-padded-up "macho" dudes, to teenagers raving about how much fun it all was, 20something female riders, couples... to family groups and dads with 10 year olds. Maybe it's because I've been in school hols, but what you describe doesn't sound like the same place.
If reasons for unequal take up of biking is being sought shouldn’t we include a definite lack of ethnic groups too? To see what links the two and what differentiates?
Probably linked by a lack of role models? And by role models I just mean people that fit the same demographics doing it already.
You could probably convince anyone to do something if you convinced 10 people like them to do it first.
Take commuting as an example as it's probably a few years ahead of the curve compared to mountainbiking. It's very much a white male thing though, which naturally makes it appealing for other white men. Either because your friends are white men and you get invited out, or you just see a copy of MBUK on the shelf and there's someone who looks like you on the front cover and subconsciously that will have an impact on you. Other groups see it as too dangerous for them (women), or as something poor people do before they get a car. Arguably we've passed that point point with the white middle aged, middle class demographic but it's probably a factor thing if you're 18-25 and need a car as a status symbol and even more so amongst other ethnic groups (you'll see a different demographic car 'cruising' around the west midlands than you will at Cannock).
Girls? You mean women?
Taking ownership of the term in a positive way, see also the run like a girl thing. Or the n word that gets you a ban.
I do a lot of fell-running and have noticed that there are a lot more women doing that than there are riding MTBs.They are fairly similar sports I guess, in terms of the environments in which they are conducted and the physical effort required to do them, so why are so many more women running than biking? Also, many more women doing marathons than road racing, more women doing Parkruns than local time trials, etc, etc. Is running doing something we aren't?
Massive generalisation coming up Talking to some of the girls I run with a lot just aren't interested in bikes. Not riding bikes, but the bikes themselves. Tinkering with machines is still a blokey thing and running has pretty much all the best bits of biking but without the tinkering bit. Obviously there are exceptions, some girls do enjoy it and are good at it. However, look at the relative numbers of men/women riding and racing and then look at the relative numbers working as mechanics. If riders are 70/30 I'll bet mechanics are 95/5.
.
On a slightly related subject, 48 of the 50 fastest marathons ever run have been by Kenyans and Ethiopians. A marathon is quite similar to an XCO race in terms of physical effort, speed, stamina, etc. How many black guys (and girls) are there racing XCO world cups? I could count them on the fingers of one foot. There may be an economic arguement here, Ethiopia is not a rich country and MTBs are expensive for the general population there, whereas almost everyone can, and does, run, so the pool of people riding is likely to be quite small but there must be untapped potential, why have none of the big teams gone out there with some bikes and a coach and done a bit of talent spotting? Likewise carribeans, famous for sprinting. How quick could someone like Bolt be in the Kilo if he took up track racing? And yet how many carribeans do we see in riding the velodrome? And how many running on the track? In this country why are black British peole over-represented in boxing and under-repressented in cycling,or in snooker? .
Anyway, enough stereotying for one evening, I'm off to bed.
.
So here's a thing, whilst I was browsing online sales (rather than going to bed) I wondered how many of the online bike shops in my bookmarks list had images of women on their homepage. Turns out many of the well known ones don't although they do have pictures of men (several in some cases). Some do (Pedalon, JE James, SJS (riding a Brompton), Fawkes, Wiggle (probably - lower body only), Ribble, BBB).
Almost all were exclusively white.
andrewh
...why have none of the big teams gone out there with some bikes and a coach and done a bit of talent spotting? Likewise carribeans, famous for sprinting. How quick could someone like Bolt be in the Kilo if he took up track racing? And yet how many carribeans do we see in riding the velodrome?...
That's a good question.
In Australia there are sizeable Melanesian populations in the North. By the time they hit 16 many of the young men are built like Chris Hoy. They look perfect for sprinting and track racing. However Rugby League hoovers up any of them with an interest in sport, but it seems like the national cycling bodies have never noticed the potential.
It's a great vid, I was going to say something like "Easy for them, as they have all that sponsorship and travel and what not" but I guess thay all had to work hard to get there.
I've had a mixed expirences on the MTB. I ride mostly with my Dad when I go out, and I reckon that stops most of the snarky comments, but I've had dirty looks as blokes over take me as I've "held them up" on a climb. I think a lot of girls are put off by themselves as it's dirty and mucky and they idea of having to dive into the bushes for a wee isn't something that a lot of my mates would be keen on, I think there's a lot of stuff that blokes take for granted that you don't even think about (and why should you, I guess)
Shops are the worst, if I'm having a moan, some one mansplaning to me about carbon handlebars or how to set up suspension or something is pretty annoying, or just plain being ignored if I want to buy something, as the bloke behind the till has a chat to his mate!! (last weekend)
or just plain being ignored if I want to buy something, as the bloke behind the till has a chat to his mate!!
Oh, I'll just wade right in there with a sturdy interruption across the conversation 😆 You want my money? You ****ing earn it, sunshine.
So here’s a thing, whilst I was browsing online sales (rather than going to bed) I wondered how many of the online bike shops in my bookmarks list had images of women on their homepage. Turns out many of the well known ones don’t although they do have pictures of men (several in some cases). Some do (Pedalon, JE James, SJS (riding a Brompton), Fawkes, Wiggle (probably – lower body only), Ribble, BBB).
Almost all were exclusively white.
TBF, at least we've moved on from the Assos model, Wades cycles and Mark Anthony. At least now the women actually look like they're riding a bike rather than working at Spearmint Rhino or Hooters.
It’s a great vid, I was going to say something like “Easy for them, as they have all that sponsorship and travel and what not” but I guess thay all had to work hard to get there.
I’ve had a mixed expirences on the MTB. I ride mostly with my Dad when I go out, and I reckon that stops most of the snarky comments, but I’ve had dirty looks as blokes over take me as I’ve “held them up” on a climb. I think a lot of girls are put off by themselves as it’s dirty and mucky and they idea of having to dive into the bushes for a wee isn’t something that a lot of my mates would be keen on, I think there’s a lot of stuff that blokes take for granted that you don’t even think about (and why should you, I guess)
Shops are the worst, if I’m having a moan, some one mansplaning to me about carbon handlebars or how to set up suspension or something is pretty annoying, or just plain being ignored if I want to buy something, as the bloke behind the till has a chat to his mate!! (last weekend)
Here's the thing.. that guy that gave you a dirty look - is it not possible that he'd have given another guy a dirty look if they were holding him up on the climb? How do you know he does it exclusively to women?
Again, in the shop - is that mansplaning or has he done it to everyone that's walked through the door because he likes to show off his perceived superior knowledge?
Sometimes, you just meet an asshole/know it all/or whatever and it has nothing to do with sexism.
I feel that's important as (potentially) conflating poor behaviour (from someone that happens to be male) necessarily with sexism does about as much good for gender relations as actual sexism itself.
Not looking to single out your post here (I like the insights about why it may not appeal to a lot of women), and of course those men you encountered could absolutely have been treating you as they did because you're a woman. My point is, if you've had no other interactions with them (or witnessed any), how can you really know?
Back to the vid, I think the two Kross ladies came up with the idea. Great stuff and great ambassadors for the sport.
Here’s the thing.. that guy that gave you a dirty look – is it not possible that he’d have given another guy a dirty look if they were holding him up on the climb? How do you know he does it exclusively to women?
Again, in the shop – is that mansplaning or has he done it to everyone that’s walked through the door because he likes to show off his perceived superior knowledge?
Sometimes, you just meet an asshole/know it all/or whatever and it has nothing to do with sexism.
Can't answer for who posted it but I've see it with my own eyes with guys on trail giving very different reactions to men and women out there, same in shops, same all over the place
At least now the women actually look like they’re riding a bike
That is true. I received a delivery today from one of the "offending" sites and to be fair their printed literature was much better, in terms of diversity, than their online presence.