[Closed] MTBers vs Roadies downhill?

Mtb’ers are just fatter which helps downhill.

Yes, we're all hostages to physics.

Yes, we’re all hostages to chips. FTFY.

Slim roadies fat MTB’ers factish

I'm not sure how much difference bravery or skill makes, I did some pretty gnarly (by road standards) descents today and the main thing slowing me down was a dis-inclination to really spin out the 50x11, plus my very lazy attempts to get aero, I'm always on drops but my drops are higher than some people's hoods... 😳

oh plus in a lot of roadie circles I think really pushing on in descents is sort of frowned on? e.g. why take risks for a few extra seconds when you could be recovering for the next big effort on the flat/uphill

To be fair, I got an old racer bike a few years ago from one of my dads friends (who used to race it and win on it so I know it's fast) and it scares the beejeezus out of me - skinny tyres, that hit my feet if I turn too fast and bleeding rim brakes on it too. Does not fill me with much confidence. Quite happy to razz down local tweed valley trails on my mountain bike though

I’m not going to trouble a good roadie up or down a tarmac hill.

I've always tended to see/think roadies are more risk taking on downs, they are eeking out every ounce to get faster on the downs, hitting daft speeds and wearing nothing but lycra, cornering on fast DH on roads is horrific to say the least!

When i go down a hill i'm focused on the next feature that could have me off, so always a bit aware of the risk, i'm more worried going down a dusty fireroad at speed due to the fact that if you wash out you won't even know it until you're face down.

This is obviously going to be a generalisation but… roadies will put in the effort for the climbs, and build the ride around them.
Unless there are some high level pros training in your area, all those climbing top 10s are going to be people who have set out on their ride to do that climb (or a few climbs) the quickest.
People who have just gone for a ride, or those who want to do their full loop as quick as they can, are probably not going to feature.
The reverse is true on an mtb. Try hard on a long climb, and look at the times.
What proportion of people to you think were attacking it?
How many of the people you beat do you think were waiting for their friend, or stopped to take a picture or have a snack?
If and when I try, I can get top 10% on a mtb climb, at 85kg and on a trail bike. If I just rode at a comfortable pace, I’m probably about halfway down.

I dunno. In reality, those roadies who are pushing it on descents are definitely taking more risks than a DH'er dressed in full Stormtrooper outfits.
And tarmac is harder than dirt to crash on and cars cause more damage than trees...
Sorry, what was the question?

Some MTBers are also Roadies.

A fast descent on a road bike can be quite scary, a bit of loose gravel, not quite enough width through a corner, significantly higher speeds. an off has the potential for pretty serious consequences, sometimes the margins are quite narrow,

Handling an MTB at speed through trees and over obstacles certainly takes more skill and concentration. But generally you're better equipped and protected for the potential hazards I'd say.

I don't believe one type of descending is really directly comparable to the other, or that one group are significantly "Braver/better/faster" than the other, to be capable at either requires a measure of ability and nerve.

This always used to bug me in Tour coverage. Saying someone was an ex mtber so would be fast downhill. Two different sports. Surface, tyres, bike, body, brakes, speeds etc.

The answer to this is that good descenders are fast downhill.

My personal experience is that I'm an ok mtber but not the best at road descents. I tend to get the fear and back off anywhere around 80kph. But over a long ride or race that doesn't matter. We don't have large mountains to ride down so the gaps have always been seconds. If I was planning to go quickly over a ride I'd focus on places where it matters most. For me that is steady climbs and rolling flats. Get aero and soft tap the descents to recover.

Road bike is always going to be slower down hill off road.
On road, on a proper alpine descent then I think a disc equipped road bike would disappear into the distance.

@tompidcock

So is this just indicative of me, and my casual disregard for safety, or do other MTBers find that they’re steadfastly mid-pack on the flat/uphill, but generally fast(er) downhill?

Anything more than XC/24 hour race downhills and I'm off and walking. Not enough skill and practice, too many crashes.

On a road bike I'm pretty quick compared to people I ride with and in European sportives I'll be overtaking most of the way down the descents. I'd put this down to two things - I've never crashed a road bike on a descent so I think I'm invincible ("casual disregard for safety") and on my first trip to Europe our guide was an excellent descender so getting some instruction and following his lines gave me an early start on the right technique.

Plus European sportive mid-pack is full of Brits who can't descend. 😃

In a survey of me and 3 of my mates who are roadies, I'm the only only mtber but am the fastest downhill. I am also the fattest and the crapest uphill!

Hmm in the UK I'm generally cautious on descents (to a point) as the surface is so bad that it feels a bigger risk that needed.
In Spain I used to descend faster than similar hill in UK just because surface and general motorist attitude was better.
It was an area frequently visited be world tour team and the Vuelta though.

Time is gained most on the uphills (as spend more time going up a hill than down it) with the flat being in-between.
They are faster uphill and on the flat because they are a lot fitter than you.
They are slower down hill because they are resting up or just not going 100% all out as not worth it.

I'd imagine a lot of those road descents are being used to recover and even chat on group/club rides. It's when the road points uphill that competitiveness kicks in and KoM is aimed for.

In amateur circles maybe, but as soon as you get a roadie who can really descend, your average mtber would have no chance.
In our group it’s the only time I take the front, but there’s a guy who rides occasionally with us, and came to Ventoux and he was incredible. Skinny, and with rim brakes left me, fat with discs, for dust. I wish he had a go pro on him, really impressive and skilful, he never looked like he was close to over cooking it, whereas I was balls out, and all over the shop. It was the Bedoin route down so lots of bends, speckled light and beautiful roads. We did the three routes that day and the Mallucene down was very fast with long straights hitting 54mph which is quick for me, whilst the Sault down was a joy.
It’s the only time I’d consider doing an uplift on the road bike if I can’t get back to that level of fitness.

Hmm in the UK I’m generally cautious on descents (to a point) as the surface is so bad that it feels a bigger risk that needed.
In Spain I used to descend faster than similar hill in UK just because surface and general motorist attitude was better.

And ^^this^^

One of the most fun descents I've ever had was a solo ride on Gran Caneria, I must have just caught the right day, minimal traffic, beautiful weather, smooth tarmac and some tasty hairpins, 900m down to sea level and no pressure or racing, but I was still giving it some beans trying to carry speed through corners and passing the occasional other bike, probably one of the nicest days I've ever had out on a bike.

Unfortunately I think the days of cheap flights for a few days playing on a canary island might be past now...

I will push a lot harder downhill on the road bike than on the mountain bike. Though i'm just as shit going back uphill on either.

Discs on mtb vs road rim so later braking?

Not all MTBers are DH gods.

I just remember a front wheel washout at 25mph, still broken from that 2.5 years later, that one trumped every other dh crash by a good margin and made me respect roadies!

I think roadies on Strava will tend to hold true the the M of KOM. I think veloviewer gives you a score based only on uphill segments. Which reflects what the community are intrested in.

Discs on mtb vs road rim so later braking?

A good chunk of road bikes are using discs now, TBH I don't think they make much difference if descending in the dry (unscientific assertion) to when and how a rider brakes, in the pissing wet they're probably more consistent and of course allow more choice on rim and tyre to optimise grip/traction/rolling/etc.

But a competent descender on a road bike in nice conditions will probably brake about as hard and as late whatever mechanism is providing the friction. Actually controlling speed is the trick; not going in so fast that you overcook a corner or applying too much brake and scrubbing your speed away or worse yet locking up and bolloxing any line choice, not dissimilar to an MTB of course but the surface/tyres and line options are rather different.

Similar skillset, different applications...

On a road bike, quite surprisingly, I'm one of the best descenders of people I ride with. At the moment I'm on a ride leading job and it's terrifying to see how shit most people are at descending. I'm going past them like they're standing still. I put this down to having done a fair chunk of road racing but also riding with a couple of expert riders in Spain. Following them down a mountain is a good lesson in descending!

On an MTB, I'm shit at descending!

For me, road bike descending is all about balls, how much danger you're willing to accept. That and reading the upcoming corner correctly!

From a straw poll I'd say that in our road club, the three fastest descenders are all also current mountain bikers. Not a representative poll by any means but maybe the sort of people attracted to mountain biking just like to take more risks in the first place?

Yes, the average MTBer is a better descender than the average roadie. They have better technique, more confidence and are more relaxed.

For the average roadie there is just not much to be gained from descending faster than they are comfortable with, and so these skills are not really honed. That is obviously the opposite to an MTBer where the descent is the highlight for most and people enjoy pushing the boundaries.

The reason for that for that is because a high speed road descent is much more dangerous than an offroad descent. Firstly the risk of injury from a fall is greater - falling off on tarmac is horrendous at 10mph never mind at 40, plus if you happen to end up in the path of an oncoming vehicle you are going to be royally screwed. Secondly, there are a greater number of unknown/uncontrollable risks on the road - you have the problem of what could be round the next bend... horses, tractors, vehicles on the wrong side of the road etc. An then you have problems with the road surface which road bikes are not good at dealing with - gravel, holes, broken tarmac, damp patches, diesel, off camber etc. If you start sliding mid corner on an mtb, chances are you'll be fine, you'll probaly be laughing in fact. If you start sliding on a road bike you are almost certainly hitting the tarmac and there's a very real chance that you're going under the wheels of a car...

I'm not superfast down hill, but I can certainly descend pretty quickly off and on road. The link between MTB / CX background and good bike handling / descending on road that commentators go on about basically comes down to skillsets and being able to handle slight changes in road surface and things that just upset the line; if believed some pro roadies are terrible descenders - but that's when ranked against other pro roadies.

It's the same on tarmac as it is on dirt, it's all about the right line and braking correctly. I distinctly remember on the first Cavendish sportive out of Chester into North Wales, there was a cracking descent super fast, open, flowy, great vision and one a quiet road in brilliant weather. i shot off down it and this guy was right behind me, following. When we got to the bottom and onto the flat he said you must ride round here a lot descending at that speed and I told him it was the first time I'd ever seen that stretch of road, he went a slightly funny colour and said I'm not following you again then 😀

It's the biggest Ligget-ism in the book but yeah a skilled MTBer is auto good on the road descents. The reverse is not at all true IME - know a few fierce road descenders who are like bambi on ice on the dirt.

I've little road experience and did the Fred Whitton a couple of years back - was nervous about the descents hearing about them ahead of time, on the day it was gg ez pz. Overtaking folk all day (something not repeated on the climbs).
Great weather though - wouldn't have been so ez pz in the rain, would have dialled it way back whereas the good roadies seem to still go pretty fast on the wet descents.

IME, the average MTB rider is a better road descender because they know how to move their body mass to help in the corners!

The vast majority of (non pro) road riders simply sit on the bike like a sack of spuds, because they are entirely focused on position for peak efficiency and power, and not for peak lateral performance. This is especially true of braking, where moving your body mass makes and absolutely massive difference to how hard you can stop before you get chucked out the front door.......

MTB riders also are happy with things moving around under them at speed and adjusting as necessary to either style it out or crash in a welter of broken limbs!

went to spain the other year, 3rd day descent to Bilbao, 1000m climb and 3500m descents,
i can categorically say those with hydraulic disc brakes and balls were by far the quickest,
the real roadies on rim brakes were left behind.

As others say, flat and uphill is 90% of the time, on rides. so is going an extra 5km on the descent going to make a massive difference to overall speed,

i noticed mtb'ers tended to have a better comprehension of how to setup gearing, change pads, fix broken chains and tyre issues

The other thing I've noticed with a lot of roadies is that they are fairly new to the sport. Someone called road biking the new golf the other day. In other words, middle aged men spending huge sums of money on equipment they barely know how to use. Some truth in that I guess and if they've not biked for years then their bike handling may be a bit rusty. Roadies transitioning from MTB though will be used to lumps, bumps and descending quickly.

IME, the average MTB rider is a better road descender because they know how to move their body mass to help in the corners!

I think there's something in this.

i noticed mtb’ers tended to have a better comprehension of how to setup gearing, change pads, fix broken chains and tyre issues

And this. MTBs break more, so you tend to have to learn to fix the basic stuff.

Probably a fair generalisation for average riders since MTB culture is riding for the descents, road culture is riding for the climbs. But if you've ever ridden with a genuinely skilled roadie who's used to Alpine descents and knows his braking points etc well you'd re-assess what 'fast' down a road descent is. The speed on the straights might be similar but the way a skilled rider can go through linked corners is something else. Seems it's all in how you set up for the corner, once you realise you've fked it up it can be too late.

I once followed someone I was riding with over a period of 3 days down a few Alpine passes to matched his speed and brake points and get better at fast corners and keeping speed. He was quicker than most but I doubt anywhere near the fastest riders. It was so good going that quick but after getting away with it through a few corners I usually backed off. Some riders just seem to have a really good feel for how to enter and exit a corner that you can't see through and I can't relax or hope enough to do that consistently. The 'main' roads in the Alps tend to be fairly predictable in that way.

Yes - I think generally that mtb riders are technically better, where road riders are generally fitter.

And this. MTBs break more, so you tend to have to learn to fix the basic stuff.

Slightly tangential, but...

On a road bike the drivetrain/gears might well be the most complex bit, and hence discourages fiddling.

On an MTB you've typically got suspension and frame bearings, so the drivetrain/gears are comparatively simple and hence you're more likely to fiddle with them?

Or something.

Definitely Technique. Riding with some roadie strangers in Provence they commented-

"You ride downhill all wrong like our MTB mate at home, and you're miles ahead like he always is. We stick to the proper way of hunching down so low that we wobble in the corners - it just looks so wrong when you stand up and gently lean into the corners in such a smooth and fast way".

I know riders who I can comfortably beat downhill on MTB but will drop me on a road descent.

It'd be really interesting to get some pro enduro/DH riders (many of whom ride road bikes regularly anyway) and pro roadies together on a long descent and see how it went.

Riding fast on road descents is terrifying. It's scary with a real risk of danger without any gratification (for me). The risk/reward calculation is just way off IMHO. I'm sure I can descend reasonably well on roads, but I wouldn't want to race down them. I've got a mate who goes nuts on road descents (and will often compete for downhill road KOMs) and doesn't seem deterred despite a few bad crashes. I always fear for his safety.

It’d be really interesting to get some pro enduro/DH riders (many of whom ride road bikes regularly anyway) and pro roadies together on a long descent and see how it went.

I suspect most pro MTBers who ride road bikes for fitness will want to avoid spannering themselves on road descents...

I suspect most pro MTBers who ride road bikes for fitness will want to avoid spannering themselves on road descents…

It's not about what they want, it's about what I want.

I quite enjoy overtaking cars and motor bikes descending Alpe d'Huez on a road bike, you can brake much later so catch pretty much everything on each corner...

Random aside, we went on a week long cycling holiday there hiring a chalet in Alpe d'Huez itself (big mistake, every day finished riding up the bloody thing). Anyway, first day one of the group, who was quite a big lad, wasn't a very confident descender so dragged his rim brakes pretty much the whole way down. When he finally arrived at the bottom his tyres were a bit odd, they then promptly delaminated! He'd heated the rims up so much the glue failed and the beads came off the tyre walls! That was the end of his riding that day, off to find a bike shop for new tyres and new tubes.

Any excuse to post this;

Yes, the average MTBer is a better descender than the average roadie. They have better technique, more confidence and are more relaxed.

Perhaps, but a 'proper' roadie (lets say one who has a BC licence and enters races) is not I think going to be sufficiently lacking in technical skill to lose anything to an MTBer on a tarmac descent - they'd crash out of every crit they ride if that was the case.

Did Red Bull Road Rage not settle this debate? 🤔😆

I think it depends on the local terrain.

I live in East Anglia and I can think of a few roadies who have/had CAT1 & 2 licenses & don't deal well with big/steep downhills.

There just aren't any big hills within a day's ride and roadies don't seem so into driving 2.5hrs to find a hill.

Perhaps, but a ‘proper’ roadie (lets say one who has a BC licence and enters races) is not I think going to be sufficiently lacking in technical skill to lose anything to an MTBer on a tarmac descent – they’d crash out of every crit they ride if that was the case

Certainly the case for 2nd cat and above, but definitely not the case for 3/4th cat. Decent MTBer will run rings around most of a 3/4 crit race on a twisty circuit.

Really Jamz? I’m guessing you race, but the twisty circuits are a mixture of bike handling, fitness and knowing where to be in the pack. There’s no real descents in a crit. I’ve raced road and mountain bikes for years. Most of the guys In the teams I’ve been in are pretty much all cyclists. Not mountain bikers or roadies, but they take part in all levels of racing in all forms.
Training for road racing from an early age is all about bike handling, my daughter is a very good “roadie”, her first 8 years were road in the summer leading to a Crit series and CX training in the winter.
The vast majority of road racers are experienced cyclists who can descend. My winter training was spent in Snowdonia, you learn very quickly how to descend twisty descents in all weather. More so than you do riding trail centres.
Seriously in the competitive road racing scheme, there is such a large proportion of the guys who race all formats.
I consider myself a roadie, but most weekends I’m in the woods on my mountain bike. I dabble doing some CX races in October and November, then do a training block ready for spring series crit races. I’m not unique, I’m just a standard roadie who loves all forms of racing and riding…..lots like me pin a number on our backs and we can go fast downhill.

Any excuse to post this

What I am I looking at?

Decent MTBer will run rings around most of a 3/4 crit race on a twisty circuit.

A good XC racer might hang in there, but group riding skills and massive accelerations out of every single corner would see most riders blowing up quickly

Decent MTBer will run rings around most of a 3/4 crit race on a twisty circuit.

I'd sooner put a fiver on them causing a crash than a fiver on them finishing top 10 : )

What I am I looking at?

Well it should be seven minutes of Fabian Cancellara skimming rock faces and cars in the TdF, but who knows whether the link is showing for everyone? (it is for me)

What I am I looking at?

tdf yellow jersey holder riding a professionally maintained bike down a newly surfaced road that is closed to traffic and has lead out car/motorbikes that will clear any idiots, wildlife etc out of his path, in perfect weather conditions.
This may have been before the era where they analysed the descents and urban corners in VR the night before the race to shave seconds off their times.

Impressive, but probably not analogous to the average amateur multi discipline rider

Interesting thread. A lot of fit roadies these days spend a lot of time on a smart trainer. This gets them very fit but does nothing for bike handling skills. So it stands to reason that mountain bikers have to learn bike handling skills quickly while a lot of roadies (not all) take a long time to gain those skills.

Most pro/very experienced roadies & mountain bikers have tremendous bike handling skills. I think it’s mainly the new inexperienced roadies who are crap at descending.

Cancellara is taking a good racing line, but don't we all do that? The main difference is when he nearly hits that cliff and doesn't think 'oh ****' and back off. But then he's a pro and that's his job.

Did Red Bull Road Rage not settle this debate?

Pretty sure MBUK did several in depth pieces on the subject, nice to see most of the same lazy generalisations still getting trotted out today! 😂

This thread is ace. Can I just say 'I am awesome too' and leave it at that?

Ha, wasn't meant to be a willy waving thread 😉 was just interested on people's thoughts and opinions.

I'm generally fast downhill, whether off or on-road - but that's fast for a normal rider (whatever that is) not winning races fast.

Having chatted yesterday to my neighbour, who is a pretty fast road rider (top 20 time on the Dartmoor Classic 100 miler) he agrees that most of his clubmates are all about the uphills and overall time, so will rest and hold back a bit in the downhill sections.

On the few rides I've been with him, he'll pull me along on the flat, drop me on the ups, and I'll overtake him in the downs, but he thinks I'm a reckless fool anyway!

I'm faster, relatively speaking on the MTB than I am on the road. Because MTBing fast downhill is a technical challenge, whereas road descending doesn't become a technical challenge until the speeds are waaay over the serious injury/death threshold.