[Closed] MTB wheelset weights - boat anchors?

what compound tyres?

Just for a comparison, I swapped my Conti Der Baron/Kaiser tyres for Hans Dampf/Nobby Nic and knocked nearly a kilo off my wheels. Completely transformed it for the better.

It felt really sluggish on the heavier tyres up hill and on flatter sections, like the speed was being sucked out of the bike.

Realistically, you could probably get some mid-range DT Swiss wheels which weigh around 1700-1800g?

Minion DHF 3c WT 2.5 – 870gm

Did you weigh that? Mine was a lot more than that.

None of that is ‘light’ although the tyres aren’t bad for what they are.

You’re into strong/light/cheap.

Wheels would be an easy upgrade to get better than 2.1kg, but will be the most expensive on the face of it.

The cassette is outrageously heavy but getting the range at a low weight is going to cost a lot more than the Sunrace cassette- especially as you’ll be wanting an 11 or 12sp drivetrain to use the lighter cassette. Once the wider drivetrain is dragged in replacing the 10sp parts this may make wheels look cheap.

Tyres- cheap savings but you’ll compromise sidewall strength and probably overall handling. I don’t have much to say here as my standard tyres are over a kilo a piece... 😂

Unless I had several hundred quid I was happy to lob at the bike to make myself feel better, tbh id probably just ride this and then upgrade maybe in spring/summer and get even more benefits from the ‘character building’ current wheel weights... which aren’t going to get much better without a big spend.

Without getting into ridiculously expensive or fragile components you can probably get the wheels down 300odd g fairly easily. There’s an easy 100+ g saved by fitting even the 394g full steel GX1150 cassette although there are much more significant savings if you’re prepared to pay £2-300 a cassette.

cassette is at the centre of the wheel so worst place to try and save weight on wheels. Tyres and rim will have a much bigger effect to inertia.

I have the same wheel set. I've never weighed them but knew they'd be the wrong side of 2kg. It's a horrible drag on climbs and I'm currently not fit so it kills me!

I've got Specialized 2.6 Grids which I really like and have no idea what they weigh. They're flimsier than a DH tyre but I've only ever split one once.

I want to keep the fat tyres but I'd love to shave loads of weight off the rims without going too narrow. I'm starting to consider carbon for the first time but nothing appeals apart from the Santa Cruz Reserve and to be honest, I wasn't planning on dropping 1600 quid on my bike any time soon.

I love the moment in the spring when Der Baron and Trail King in heavy flavour (but winter grippy) are replaced by either all round Goma's or Uber light Saguaro's.
I feel faaaaast.

felt like I was dragging a boat anchor behind me.

To be honest that's how I feel with a 2.3 HR2 on the back, don't suppose the 2.4 rolls much better.

Thanks for all responses thus far.

Tyre weights are from the Maxxis website, 3c max terra compound on both.

It’s such a strange feeling to have the speed sucked out of a bike as mentioned above. I felt great on the day of the ride and was becoming frustrated.

Don’t want to chuck money at the bike willy nilly though.

Hmm. Perhaps start with a set of nice light XC tyres and see if that makes a change.

Aware that the 35w’s are a bit of a bomber wheelset but I guess that’s my fault for not researching fully.

Actually, Just to make you feel a bit better I decided to see what the wheels on my Soul weigh. CBA stripping so this is an addy-up of published weights.

Wheels: 1.961kg (2xWTB i35 Asym 27.5, Pro4's, XD driver, DT Comps and DT brass nips)
Tyres: 1.214kg (WTB 2.3 Breakout, Tough / Fast)
1.140kg (WTB 2.3 Vigilante, Tough / High Grip)
Cass: 0.394kg (SRAM XG1150 GX)

System: 4.619kg

So, as you see I've cunningly started with a reasonably light set of wheels and cassette and then spunked it all on bombproof tyres 😀

I'm actually happy with this setup on my nice lightweight hardtail although I am considering dropping to something like a Minion and Rekon or HR which should save around half a kilo from what I'm currently running...

IME a High Roller in 3c on the back definitely won’t be helping. I switched to a boggo compound Maxxis Agressor on the back, and its noticeably less draggy than the HR2 or DHF that I tried on the back.

On one bike, I’ve just swapped out a 2.5kg b+ wheelset for some DT Swiss Spline 1’s that were on sale. Almost a 750g weight saving, and that’s transformed the bike - although it feels less indestructible monster truck on descents (lot more agile and fun feeling tho). Longer term, id seriously think about some lighter wheels.

You could save some rolling resistance by swapping out the rear tyre for a
Maxxis Aggressor probably. I wouldn’t sacrifice the front grip of the dhf though personally.

I’ve got the pro4 hubs and they are a reasonable weight - you can’t get much lighter without spending a lot - and you’re probably not going to notice any difference.

Those rims must be quite heavy of that total wheel weight is correct, and I’m sure I’ve read they’re not the strongest rims either. If you’re really up for it you could try something like a Dt xm481 tonswap for the Hope rims but keep the same hubs.

TBH, it's the 35mm internal factor that's shoving the weight up I think. On my numbers there's about 150g to be saved by shifting to the rims I'm on with a Pro4/DT build - that's not going to be worth the chew until the rims are screwed.

My plans for the 5010 in the carbon vs alloy thread involve a set of 30mm DT Spline 2's that I'd probably put 2.5's or 2.6's on. They're 1 1.8kg wheelset or thereabouts.

For me, that (with Minion and Rekon in 2.6) should see around 4kg all in which is reasonable for a set of non race wheels all up - tyres, cassette, rotors etc in my book.

Back to @waspsnest, from kicking my own wheelset and the ideas of a couple of others around here, I reckon if you're committed to 35mm internals then you're looking at marginal gains and nothing really worth doing until rims and drivetrain are knackered. Might be worth investigating a less draggy compound or tyre for your backend though, that's going to be the cheapest and probably most effective change you can make I think.

Those rims must be quite heavy of that total wheel weight is correct, and I’m sure I’ve read they’re not the strongest rims either

580g for the rim only, quoted on the Hope website.

And yes, they're pretty bendy. I haven't broken one yet but I've dented the hell out of them and bent the worst bits back with an adjustable spanner. Just waiting for that rear wheel to explode any day now.

Some great info and positive discussion. Good stuff and thanks again.

I may have messed up on the tyre weights, I actually make my tyres to be 915g / 945g front and rear, so heavier still.

I used to run a rock razor on the back to great effect, although slider in the winter.

Have experimented by finding a dirt cheap rock razor (695g) and a Nobby Nic (680g) on eBay moments ago, (irrespective of grip at this stage) so i’ve spent some pocket money on a crude experiment. Without changing anything else, I’m looking at a 500g-ish saving - I’ll Chuck them on when they get delivered.

I’m being honest with myself and definitely not in search of ultra-fast-trail-bike becuase I can’t spend silly money to do so, and it’d be wasted on my ability but I’ve definitely went wrong somewhere and I think it may be the tires (got a cracking deal on the Maxxis ones and thought it was too good to turn down).

Used to run Trail king black chilli on the front and a Nobby on the rear, wasn’t the worst but the Maxxis’ feel like they’ve added about 40 tonnes to the bike, whereas I’ve lost nearly a stone since riding it last, and I ride regular.

OK. I’ll make a pledge to chime in once converted and report back with findings so at least if anything, someone else with the same issue may find it useful.

Oh, for what it’s worth - the 35W rims have been fine for me, and I’ve had no issues with their strength thus far. Everything from Fort William to tame XC stuff down in London-shire and they have been maintenance free. I can see elsewhere online that some find them to be made of softer stuff.

Cheers!

Depends where you ride, the number of people I see riding around Swinely (which is completely devoid of anything that could cause a pinch flat) on similar wheelsets is surprising. You could ride the DH tracks at Swinley with Crest's and sticky but thin tyres and be fine. If you don't need heavy duty tyres I'd ditch those first, save them for alpine holidays.

Wheels are expensive, but rims aren't, and those are the important bits as far as bike feel is concerned. See if you can find a lighter rim with a similar ERD and do a swap? How do they compare against for example Stans Arch or Flow?

Cassettes don't affect acceleration so much but do affect the feel of a bike, it's a big lump of weight to be hanging right at the back of a bike, if you don't believe me, take the gears off a hardtail and go singlespeed, suddenly the back end just skips up steps, unsprung weight matters. Hit the gym, do some rowing and/or squats, and go back to an 11-36, go down a chainring size if you have to (28-36 is a gnats chuff away from the 26-32 most trail bikes had for years). 50t probably helps a lot on a long day out in the Lake district, but it's also an absolute killer in weight terms unless you can afford XX1.

I’ve had Contis and they always felt light, I’m running a dhf and dhr2 29er at 2.3-2.35 happy with the grip, looking forward to changing to an ardent race in summer as the dhr feels slow, on sixth element wheels 30mm 915gram /1030 grams
so the tyres are nearly same weight ;0)

On another bike 27.5 my dt swiss m1700 alu rim are lighter still, feel a bit squidgy though

Gotta be down to the tyres then. From what you've got already, probably the Rock Razor is going to be er, entertaining this early in the year but the Nic should be a viable rear.

I doubt the weight matters much - it’s the rolling resistance you’re feeling.

Never gave much thought as to the weight of the cassette until it was mentioned, but I can relate to the single speed comment (got a carbon forked SS converted cube as a take-kids-to-the-park bike) about the back end feeling more lively.

Also ditto for the Swinley comment above, some folks riding around there on complete tanks of bikes, to each their own but I feel the whole marketing engine of the MTB world leads to a lot of riders being over-biked for what they do, case and point in all likelihood is me to some extent, I mean, who doesn’t like shiny stuff being delivered on a Friday morning in time for the weekend ride!?

It’s a complete first world problem, but also fun trying out different things.

Depends where you ride. I've got a heavier wheelset on my Mega - Magic Mary ultra soft with gravity casing on the front and a HRII DD on the back on Hope 35W wheels and I don't ever really think I'd want to compromise grip and durability for speed and weight reduction. Heavier wheels also deflect less on really rocky stuff.

The only time it felt draggy was when I stayed at a friend's house in Surrey and we rode Swinley. It felt like I was waiting for the track to go downhill but it never did.

I also think that you soon get used to a lightweight wheelset, then it just becomes the norm. Unless you're constantly riding with people who are fitter than you then it doesn't make any difference other than the initial wow factor when switching from something heavy.

JP

Last week I rode 4 of my bikes on my commute . On all of the climbs whether on or off road the fatty was quickest. On the one segment where I go flat out (road hill climb) the results were
Hardtail 29 2.50
Full sus 26 that could be locked out 3.05
Rigid 26 with 1.3 cyclo cross tyres 2.44
Rigid fat bike 2.40
Not a lot of difference between them but I would have thought the rigid 26 would have been quickest by a mile.

As plenty of others have said, you'll compromise strength, rim width or grip without spending serious £££.

To give you some comparison from my own setup:

- Light Bicycle 33mm internal 650B carbon rims on DT Swiss 240 straight pull hubs, DB spokes & brass nipples: 1720g
- GX Eagle cassette: 450g
- Specialized Butcher Grid 2.6 F&R: 950g each

Total weight: 4070g before sealant. But I've then added 250g with a Cushcore on the back.....

My front wheel weighs 2.2kg. So a dt swiss xm481 on hope pro4 hubs with a maxxis dhf 2.5wt, shimano xt disk. Is this heavy or not?

I recently replaced the standard wheels on my BluePig for something a bit lighter (and stronger). The bike definitely feels more spritely, so much so that I'm now happy to do all day rides on it.

I doubt the weight matters much – it’s the rolling resistance you’re feeling.

weight definately matters. I took my big bike wheels (the ones i use for wales - 2.5 DHF supertacky exo F, 2.5 DHF DH Rear on stan flows) and put them on my HT and by jolly it was hard work! I put teh HT wheels on the big bike and it flew! (cut down wetscream DH 2.5 F, maxxis DHF 2.35 ond school maxxterra wired R both tubed) mud setup from when it was muddy!.

I thought the DHFS would roll faster ( they definately roll faster than the cut wetscreams - i had a pair on teh HT last winter and it was a mission everywhere but DH!) but nope -

i was very suprised but i`m now looking at smaller lighter tyres...

I think a lot of what is causing confusion here is that everything in the system is bigger and heavier that it used to be. 400-600 odd g used to be normal tyreweight. Double that is now not unusual. Rim widths and diameters have increased a lot. A couple of years ago 19mm ID was pretty normal and 25mm was huge. ‘Normal’ is now the width of previously heavy duty stuff like Flow EX’s.

Cassettes actually haven’t changed as shockingly as people think. There’s only about 30g between an HG81 SLX 11-36 and a SRAM GX 1150 10-42 which is pretty stunning. Spending on the more expensive SRAM cassettes can actually get below the weight of an XT M771 11-36 (338g!). An X01 XG1195 is 263g but costs nearly five times the 10sp XT price now.

Admittedly Sunrace and Shimano cassettes aren’t as light, but by the time everyone’s wheels have essentially gone up a gauge and tyre weights have more than doubled it’s not surprising we are wondering if wheels are heavier than remembered...

Could you run a faster, lighter tyre on the rear?

I've got a Maxxis Ardent on the rear, with the fancy sidewall protection. It rolls pretty well, and I've not had any issues with flats/tears/whatever.

It can be a bit little bit slidey on very steep muddy descents, but that just adds to the fun! Other than that it's fine and is 100-150g lighter than your tyre.

“weight definately matters. I took my big bike wheels (the ones i use for wales – 2.5 DHF supertacky exo F, 2.5 DHF DH Rear on stan flows) and put them on my HT and by jolly it was hard work! I put teh HT wheels on the big bike and it flew! (cut down wetscream DH 2.5 F, maxxis DHF 2.35 ond school maxxterra wired R both tubed) mud setup from when it was muddy!“

Don’t you think the difference could be down to having a dual ply 2.5 DHF on the rear on the heavier set but a 2.35 DHF on the back (is that dual ply?) on the other? So rolling resistance again. The front’s rolling resistance is never significant until you’re pointing more steeply downhill.

Logically any wheel acts like a flywheel - so a heavier wheel takes more energy to get up to speed but then has more stored energy to sustain your speed. With constant changes of velocity the heavier wheel will be harder work but it seems like most wheel weight complaints are climbing related, not descending.

Love Hope hubs, but really don't get why their wheels are so popular. They're either narrow and heavy (Normal Enduro's and Tech XC's) or just plain heavy (Tech 35W). I'd suggest a rebuild on some lighter rims/spokes and lighter tyres. Those claimed weights for your Maxxis tyres are well off, both will be over 950g each. Just for a reference, I'm running Pro 4's/Arch MK3s with Sapim D-Light spokes and 2.35 Maxxis Forekasters, verified weights below:

Maxxis Forekaster 2.35: 715/723g
Hope Pro 4/Stan's Arch MK3: 1716g
Sram XG1195 cassette: 357g
Hope rotors inc bolts: 301g
Stan's sealant & valves: ~ 175g
Total wheel weight: 3.987kg

Granted that's a pretty light setup, but just shows how much you can save just by swapping rims and tyres! And that weight is including rotors & valves/sealant which others have missed so not a lot of cash you drop over a kilo.

Heavier wheels will still mess with the bike on descent in non rolling resistance ways, but I suspect climbing drag is focussed on because you generally have more time and available attention to ‘appreciate’ it. In the context of MTB I do think that system weight matters, not just the old school approach of rolling weight only. But as pointed out by many tyre drag is significant too simply because we frequently deliberately fit sticky tyres to gain advantages regardless that they will slow us down.

“Heavier wheels will still mess with the bike on descent in non rolling resistance ways, but I suspect climbing drag is focussed on because you generally have more time and available attention to ‘appreciate’ it.”

The point I’m trying to make is that if you’re pedalling up a hill at constantly velocity the physics says a heavier wheel makes absolutely no difference (if the system total weight, ie bike plus rider, is the same) whilst it says that rolling resistance losses can make a very big difference.

You might feel more inertia trying to accelerate the heavier wheel on each pedal stroke but it’ll maintain better momentum in between the pedal strokes so the average speed for a given power input will be the same (actually it’ll be imperceptibly higher with more wheel inertia according to how rolling losses increase with speed).

You are very rarely pedalling at a constant rate on a MTB though - unless possibly you are a technical XC god, so the inertia cancelling doesn’t really come into it as much.

I’ve made similar arguments regarding commuting by fatbike though, the big heavy wheel wants to keep its speed once you’ve done the acceleration burn - but for varied terrain with obstacles that can break down really quickly.

Sticky tyres are rubbish for anything other than winch and plummet stuff really. Be honest with yourselves, do you really need huge rims and bomb proof tyres for [u]most[/u] of the riding you do? If not, get some lighter wheels with friendlier tyres and keep the #gnar ones for when you do 'need' something a bit more substantial.

I've got some 23mm rims with light-ish Conti tyres on and they're absolutely fine for 90% of the stuff I do and I keep the [b]Fun[/b]-[i]Sponge[/i]™ wheels for when I do a DH or enduro race.

"You are very rarely pedalling at a constant rate on a MTB though – unless possibly you are a technical XC god, so the inertia cancelling doesn’t really come into it as"

Fireroad climbs are pretty steady straight line pedals.

With constant changes of velocity the heavier wheel will be harder work but i

given we mountain bike off road on uneven terrain this happens 99.9% of the time.

lightweight XC tryes make your bike like a rocketship. (untill you slice it open on a flint/show it a hawthorn/land sideways)

Sticky tyres are a necessary evil if wet roots and rocks are likely to be encountered whether descending or not. They’re a necessary evil for many I think. Like (I thought most) tend to run a hard tyre at the back and a mid-sticky on the front as a compromise. It’s usually good enough and I don’t need to worry about ‘what tyres’ although I’m going to be shockingly overtyred for a BW bimble. I don’t really need the reinforced front I’m running at the moment but I was feeling paranoid.

For sure fireroad spins are going to be fairly consistent cadence wise but they really aren’t the reality of everyone’s climbing. Certainly for me, technical climbing is the norm and that really isn’t steady cadence work for real people.

How much difference do you reckon there is between a DHR MaxxGrip and the equivalent MaxxTerra?

The MaxxGrips feel like they rip up tarmac.

The point I’m trying to make is that if you’re pedalling up a hill at constantly velocity the physics says a heavier wheel makes absolutely no difference (if the system total weight, ie bike plus rider, is the same) whilst it says that rolling resistance losses can make a very big difference.

Yea, but there's a psychosomatic element to it as well, we all know the theory that and XC bike should climb as fast as a CX bike up a fire road, but put the same bloke on both bikes and he'll push out 50W more on the CX bike and reach the top first just because drop bars and light wheels feel fast so make you want to go fast.

And a kilo of wheel weight is still a kilo of wheel weight, imagine walking up a moderately technical climb with a 1kg backpack, now imagine walking up it kicking a 1kg football.

Weight is a factor but I've always found rolling resistance is what makes a bike feel draggy.

My wheel system must weigh a flipping ton...

29er Spesh Enduro which weighs 35lbs total with tools in SWAT.
Hope hubs on Stans Flow Mk3
Cushcore rear, backerfoam front and lots of sealant.
Magic Mary Orange Apex front, Rock Razor Blue SG rear.
Sunrace 11 speed 11 to 46 cassette.

I'll be riding Swinley on it tomorrow ;-D

The set up won't change for Wales at the end of the month, the Lakes in March, Alps in the summer or Finale in September. I hate changing tyres.

Does it feel draggy.... nah.

Possibly down to Rock Razor, my godlike fitness or the fact I'm simply used to it.

I can’t help thinking that massive wheels with huge tyres and monster cassettes are in some ways a step backwards - you’ll never get them light unless you spend a lot of money and they end up being fragile.
I still think the 2.3” tyres on my 26” wheels seem pretty big and fine in the rocky terrain I ride on. Maybe it’s becuaee I rode rigid bikes for so long when before suspension started becoming useful and I like to skip over stuff.

If you make a huge tyre light it’ll be fragile, same with rims. But smaller can be reasonably tough but without the weight penalty.

I had the Hope 35W too, i kept them for 4 months and decided the same. They're massively heavy for me and not really giving me any benefit as i'm not hardcore enough to need massively heavy/strong wheels. So i swapped to Hope Tech XC. Although with removing some weight from the tyres by fitting Vittoria Barzo/Mezcal. Overall i don't honestly know how much weight i've removed but it's fairly significant.

Rim sizes and tyres have both pumped weight up noticeably. Typical tyres are now often double the weight they used to be. 27.5 still gets people worked up but bigger wheels can make the bike better for many things.

Cassettes haven’t actually got heavier across the board though. The crazy expensive X01 1195 10-42 SRAM cassette is lighter than an M771 XT 11-36 by quite a long way. There’s very little in it between the GX 1150 cassette and HG81 SLX 11-36. The 12sp Eagle X01 10-50 cassette is 354g - Again squarely in the 10sp XT weight range. Yes, Sunrace cassettes are heavy because they’re keeping prices down and Shimano seem to be prioritising price over weight right now too although to a lesser degree, but it’s simply not correct to claim cassettes are heavier than they were before 1x.

Played a similar game recently - had a demo bike for the weekend. It came with Hope tech Enduro wheels, SLX 11spd cassette and WTB Tough carcass tyres inc a 2.5 Convict on the back. Did a couple of rides with those wheels then swapped to my Pro4/WTB KOMi25 wheels, built up with Sapim D-lights, ally nips and fitted with Maxxis 2.3 Exo TR tyres and an X01 cassette (basically built as light as I thought I could get away with). Both setups were tubeless.

That took over 1.5kg off the bike weight and completely transformed the way the bike rode. With the heavy wheels on, it was a sled downhill - wind it up and hang on, finesse not required. Pedalling it anywhere was horrible. With my wheels, the feel of the bike was transformed. Much nippier, rolled better easier to pick up and move around, just loads more fun to ride.

I'd be the first to admit that the KOM rims are barely fit for purpose - I have a total of 37 dinks of various sizes in the rear rim after a year of use, although it's still fairly straight. I've only had 1 puncture which was a slashed sidewall. 95% Peaks/Lakes riding. I'm at the lighter end of the spectrum which helps (64kg), but not slow. I do run sensible pressures (25F/30R). I do like "riding" the bike rather than being a passenger, so I'm quite active/poppy/hoppy and try to be smooth, but still the difference in feel - no way would I be interested in riding the heavy wheels for anything other than lift served stuff.

I still regularly ride a 26" bike - near as dammit identical spec wheels to the Hope/KOM set described above, just smaller; and again the lightness, agility and playfulness from the lack of inertia is great. I really struggle to understand how people cope with big heavy rims, monster tyres, liners - all that extra mass. Just seems to rob the fun out of riding. YMYV though...!

I hear what you are saying, I just hate having to 'ease off' to protect any aspect of my bike build. Pre inserts I'd be nervous tearing into a big old rock garden, now I leap into them as fast as I can handle.

I bike pack on a rigid bike with carbon rims and Thunder Burts, I love picking lines to keep things safe, so very much horses for courses.

Ideal world it would be great to have a second wheelset for the Enduro, some extra zip on certain terrain would add another dimension.

Goes off to look at wheels and tyres.

I have a total of 37 dinks of various sizes in the rear rim after a year of use

ever thought of simply running appropriate pressure in your rear tyre?

One ding should have alerted you to the real issue

Ok so I promised I’d chime back in once I got the new tyres on.

To save you reading back through the lot, I replaced my c.980gr Maxxis DHF WT and High Roller II front and rear tyres with a speed grip Nobby Nic and Rock Razor. (About 680gr each).

After a 35 mile shlep through the Hertfordshire mud and snow today I can confirm that this has transformed the bike.

I was whizzing along today and had my usual place in the pack rather than slogging away at the back.

Placebo aside, there is no doubt that it’s the tyres that’s changed how the bike rides. Felt half a ton lighter.

Now, I’m aware that this may be due to rolling resistance rather than weight, but I’m not fussed either way. My bike is back to normal again!

Over the moon. Will definitely keep an eye on weights and rolling resistance when buying tyres in the future.

So happy!

Cheers.