[Closed] MTB Psychology - the smell of fear?

Can't help because I'm exactly the bloody same! That said I still do it on local trails on features that I've ridden no problem beforehand. I'm a terrible over-thinker, it does my head in!

Everyone has their level I guess. I get the fear which I find very annoying because I'm not anxious / a worrier in any other aspect of my life. If I can just buzz along a trail I'll do it without thinking and will take any obstacles in my stride, but as soon as I start thinking about a specific feature then I almost know I'm not going to do it.

It's not even rational - I'll worry over a jump but will happily take far greater risks at other times - E.g. ride along a loose cliff-edge (with far greater consequences if it went wrong) without a second thought.

I don't know what the answer is, but I'm right here with you!

Exactly the same for me. Drops are my nemesis. I have the ability to ride 2-3ft drops without much issue, but the brain takes over and goes NOPE! 99% of the time when I do ride it, my reaction is "oh, was that it?"

I find it better to not have the choice of pulling out - when on a trip last year I was following a fairly fast rider down a blind trail, suddenly a 2ft drop appears 10ft in front while doing 15mph - the brain didn't have time to compute so I instinctively hit it, and didn't die.

what remy says

Personally I think its how regularly you ride. I ride BMX (poorly) and find I have to ride at least once a week to not feel horrible and wobbly when I get on the bike. If I can ride twice a week feel much more comfortable. MTB is the same but I ride much more sporadically, Need a few regular technical rides close together to become comfortable and fell "in tune".

99% of the time when I do ride it, my reaction is “oh, was that it?”

This is also part of the problem. When I was 14, me and my mates would be egging each other on to do jumps / drops / whatever. The fear was real but the payoff was massive - a huge adrenaline rush when I finally went for something.

Nowadays I still get the fear but not really the reward. It feels like I'd have to go stupidly, irresponsibly big to get the same adrenaline hit.

Same here, I have rule that if I've stopped to look just walk it as otherwise will overthink and spanner self. Also find if following someone will do loads more than if I'm on own or in front as think they've done so will I. Human brains are weird.

Can't help you, I'm the same.

Give me a trail I've ridden 100 times and I'll ride at 8/10ths, but a new trail I can be a shaking mess. I've had a last minute refusal on pathetic little features loads of times, I'm ready to hit it and suddenly my sub-conscious is heaving on the brakes. Worst thing you can do of course.

I think most regular people have the reaction you do don't they? and for good reason TBH. The thing I've had to train myself to do, is get off and have a look. Seems like a small thing but TBH my early MTB world was XC in giant loops, and in a part of the world where they're aren't really major obstacles, and it got ingrained in me, and i got used to... just not stopping (Strava doesn't help with this either TBH). Trouble with this attitude is that obstacles that need some technique to get over that you can't do or are unsure about get either routed around or walked in the name of "getting on"

I've binned off Strava, which gives me the excuse not to have to think about speed, time, routes etc, and that means I can go out with the express intent of learning (or sessioning as I think the young people are calling it) a particular feature or drop. I still get the fear, but that's now part of the thing I'm doing, rather than a psychological obstacle I've also placed in front of the physical obstacle I'm trying to overcome. Allow yourself, in other words, to acknowledge that you've still things to learn, and that you're still learning rather than assuming that because you've been doing this for so long, you really should have this nailed by now, and beating yourself up about the fact that you can't do something.

It's an interesting one for sure.

I find on a trail i'm more inclined to do something than i am in a static environment. If i'm riding a trail and following i just think "oh well, here goes"

But obviously there are limits to that tactic.

Using Swinley Summit has been awesome for me, repetition, repetition, time and time again, increasing confidence... Means i can then attempt things in the outdoor world easier.

But there's still lots of things i simply won't do, there's a limit.... but i'm near 50 and the reality is, i'll never be a jump god... along with the consequences of doing so.

Collarbone injury is still with you , that is understandable. That Remy video is great

Other than that,...Bones Mend... Press Send 😬

I'm the same, I end up over analysing stuff and then start to dwell on what could go wrong.
The biggest benefit for me is riding with people that are better than me but have an idea of what I'm capable of. I know I can trust them to not send me off something that is potentially outside of my capabilities and they will talk me through it and encourage me but also know me well enough that if I say I don't fancy it then they won't push too hard.
Once I'm at the stage of deciding to give it a go I take a few run ins so there are no surprises and then take a few deep breaths and just commit to doing it. Nothing worse IMO than still not being sure as you are about to do it as that's when you can mess things up.
If I clear it then I like to go and have another couple of goes to maybe do it better or if I nailed it then just to prove to myself it wasn't blind luck.

Left field here, but the biggest thing for me is strength and fitness training, especially body weight stuff.
The more you are confident in your strength and your ability to hold, move, and catch yourself, the more confident you will be about drops jumps etc, you know if you can save yourself.

If you already have that, then listen to the other advice here...

(edit - Remy alludes to this, he says prepare your body.)

OP, do you enjoy drops and scary things? Do you get a thrill from clearing them? That is a big motivation for me... i love the feeling of bricking it and clearing it. As all those awful life coaches say, what is your motivation?

I think us mortals all get it to some extent.

Ultimately we are doing this as a hobby, there is no compulsion to actually ride challenging stuff if we just aren't feeling it on the particular day. So don't be too hard on yourself.

last weekend I still arsed around for a while before dropping off a step that can’t have been more than 40cm high.

Was this the biggest obstacle on the trail you rode that day?

I find one thing that does help is riding more challenging stuff. Up to a point you kind of adjust your comfort limits based on the average level of the trial. If the trail you are on has one 40cm drop then its east to balk at it. But, if the trail you are riding has a dozen 40cm drops and a couple of 1m ones then the 40cm ones become nothing and you have to think about the 1m ones instead. Its probably why you had no issue with small drops in the Alps.

There is a limit obviously. I'm never going to be smashing Squamish like Remy!

Thanks for all the replies! Well - I'm not the only one at least. I guess that makes me feel better (but of course makes no real difference on the trail either 😀 )

But there’s still lots of things i simply won’t do, there’s a limit…. but i’m near 50 and the reality is, i’ll never be a jump god… along with the consequences of doing so.

I'm nearly 50 too and I won't be a jump god ever but better than yesterday and worse than tomorrow is something I want to keep as long as possible. It's not an absolute or a comparison against others, it really is the fun of doing something harder/better than I've done before.

I find it better to not have the choice of pulling out – when on a trip last year I was following a fairly fast rider down a blind trail, suddenly a 2ft drop appears 10ft in front while doing 15mph – the brain didn’t have time to compute so I instinctively hit it, and didn’t die.

Very definitely this. A tow in to things from someone I know and trust helps enormously, and I think the fact that I ride alone quite a lot doesn't help me in this space because I don't get the tow in but also because the consequences of ****ing it up are a bit more difficult if I'm on my own.

Left field here, but the biggest thing for me is strength and fitness training, especially body weight stuff.

Yes - I've recently started this to strengthen my shoulder after the injury, and in the past although last year I was fitter than ever, it wasn't general fitness it was just massive amounts of cycling. I neglect core and upper body and I'm trying to fix that, if only to not hurt myself (in theory at least) if I fall again on the shoulder - muscle should help that a bit, I figure.

OP, do you enjoy drops and scary things? Do you get a thrill from clearing them? That is a big motivation for me… i love the feeling of bricking it and clearing it.

Absolutely - and there are very poor GoPro videos rad edits of me whooping with excitement when I clear stuff that is out of my comfort zone. I would happily ignore stuff otherwise, but I do need to feel like I'm getting better and not worse and I really do enjoy clearing stuff for the first time. I'm not good with heights (and ladders used to terrify me - but even that I've worked through and can comfortably do stuff 2 or 3m up in the air now).

Personally I think its how regularly you ride.

Almost certainly, yes.

Will watch the Remy video - thanks for the suggestion - there was another similar video on one of the YT channels (Loam Ranger, perhaps?) that offered some thoughts that although obvious made sense. Part of my issue is that all the good advice seems obvious when I hear it but turning that into something I actually do on the trail is something I'm a bit lazy at. ("Yeah, I know that" is a proxy for not taking the time and effort to practice because I "know" it. And yet I know there's a big difference between knowing and being able to. My guitar "playing" is another good example of that 😀 )

Try going through GMB fail of the week and watch how often people have what look like terrible stacks on some jump and then get up laughing or no more than winded.

Try going through GMB fail of the week and watch how often people have what look like terrible stacks on some jump and then get up laughing or no more than winded.

I watch the pinkbike Friday Fails every week, and I agree. More generally, I probably don't fall often enough (and I mean small falls, not massive crashes) to gain confidence in just getting it a bit wrong and dusting myself off.

Don't compare one drop to another - the size of the drop is pretty irrelevant compared to the run in and run out - that's what determine whether I'm happy about doing a drop far more than the size (up to a point!)

I'm very nervous for my ability, I have to feel well, strong and limber (how tense your mind is intimately link with how relaxed your body is and vice versa), I have to convince myself what I'm interpreting as nerves is really excitement, I have to picture it over and over, then commit at the first pedal stroke and relax. I'm one of those take a little longer to try something, but when I do it's normally perfect because I've fully committed.

I have to do something slightly outside my comfort zone a few times a week to keep the momentum going.

Plus riding the jump bike or bmx really helps, reassures me I've got strength and coordination.

Haha good topic👍 poor old fear factor, always getting the blame.

It's your over confidence that's the issue! Your subconscious knows that you're not as good as you think you are. The fear factor is just reminding you to practice more 😁

Your subconscious knows that you’re not as good as you think you are.

My subconscious is an arsehole. It's proved that to me many times before 😀

^^^ username might be clue here...

I doubt too much. When presented with a riding challenge (step down, drop, obstacle or something) I doubt my own abilities. Far too much. Sometimes I’ll stop and fanny around for ages before riding something that turns out to be well within my limits.

All the time! It drives me nuts that I can easily psyche myself out from doing something I know I can do but the view on the run-in just spooks me. My regular trails and their features are not an issue generally as I know what to expect but take me to somewhere new or that I don't visit that often and I get massively over-cautious. I'm always better after a skills day or an Alpine trip for a few weeks but the old cautiousness comes back pretty fast.

Part of the reason is I don't like getting injured, part of it is I suffer with terrible self-doubt and confidence issues and part of it is due to the last company I worked for. The first period of time off (5 weeks) I had with them was tolerated, the second they made me feel guilty about it (4 weeks) and the third (2 weeks) they made me sign a piece of paper saying that I understood the 'Extreme Sports Clause' in my contract and that the next time I wouldn't get full sick pay for any of it. They would have made me sign it after the second one but that was from a RTC while commuting in so wasn't extreme and they got their money back form the driver's insurers.

It does give my riding buddies something to laugh at though, watching me refuse to send it off something I've done plenty of times before some days and on others just not even thinking about it! I'm fully aware it's going to take me a few trips to my local trail centres once I'm allowed to travel to get my skills and timing back up to scratch as the local stuff is all tame by comparison. A skills day may be in order.

Just buy a gravel bike and give up all together. Worked for me 🙂

Seriously, I'm not sure I can help much but I certainly know how you feel. Maybe we should start a support group.

There is one difference for me, which is that once I stop to take a look my chances of riding it go down significantly. My best chance is if I just hit it without thinking too much.

I don't like the term over-thinking. In general thinking is good and there are far more problems caused by people not thinking enough than by thinking too much. But this is one case where my logical brain isn't much help. Let's face it, by any rational analysis mountain biking is a daft activity. I've broken both arms in separate crashes and have a permanent scar on my hip from a third. All were painful, involved significant time off the bike and I've no wish to repeat the experience. The more risky stuff I ride the more likely it is that I'll spanner myself again. So not riding this stuff makes perfect sense. Especially as I don't even get that thrill when I do ride it (just relief). I just wish I didn't feel so inadequate when I refuse to ride something and didn't let it ruin my whole ride/day. Which brings me back to my first line 🙂

Other than that,…Bones Mend… Press Send 😬

Yeah, sometimes they don't, sometimes they hurt forever more and come with "limited range of movement". I had my 4th Surgery 6 weeks ago for a crash I had in 2009.

I love clearing technical challenges that have taken some time to work up to. But I am not a huck and hope sort - no, way too timid for that. So I like to progress up to things incrementally. Session smaller versions, hip it to the side before hitting the gap, get the run-up practised, analyse it to the 'nth degree, watch the local kids do it with their eyes shut etc. Then finally do it!
… or not.

Just buy a gravel bike and give up all together

I have a gravel bike. Ironically, that was the bike I fell off and broke my collarbone 🤣 I enjoy the gravel bike, but every time I'm back on the MTB it just reminds me how much more fun the MTB can be. It really is more enjoyable (but there are many reasons why the gravel riding I do is fun too...)

I love clearing technical challenges that have taken some time to work up to. But I am not a huck and hope sort – no, way too timid for that. So I like to progress up to things incrementally. Session smaller versions, hip it to the side before hitting the gap, get the run-up practised, analyse it to the ‘nth degree, watch the local kids do it with their eyes shut etc. Then finally do it!
… or not.

Aye, that's my world.

effortless when you're 12.

Ironically, that was the bike I fell off and broke my collarbone

Yes, I'm still getting physio to sort out an ankle injury I got when I fell off the gravel bike on the ice a few weeks back. So maybe it's not that great advice after all. Luckily that one only hurts when I walk though and is fine when I'm riding 🙂

Worked for me

Yes, I’m still getting physio to sort out an ankle injury I got when I fell off the gravel bike on the ice a few weeks back.

Mmmmm... 🤔😆

Yak+1

I was very tentative after have my shoulder rebuilt with pins & plates in 2010, all the way to a big crash with spurty blood and a broken elbow during the 2018 Exmoor Marathon.

Funnily enough, the latter has made me less tentative.

I get what you're saying, Yak and Kryton, but that's not always possible. There are a couple of gap jumps near me which are no longer than other table jumps that I hit with no issue but of course the gap means the consequences would be worse that I've never dared them. There's just no easy way to work up to those ones... but I get what you're saying.

Its practice and repetition for me. Used to get spooked by drops all the time so i built a couple of drops in the garden. Now i'm less spooked. If going anywhere with drops etc (BPW) then i session the ones in my garden a few times before i go to get my confidence back up.

Now just need to do the same for gaps and steep rocky technical sections (my nemesis) cos they bloody terrify me

orangespyderman - yeah, sometimes it is not possible to practise, but if you have hit 3 tables that ride that were bigger than the double, then I would go for it - run up and landings being similar.

There is/was a nice size step-up near me. To me it is quite big with a gap and an imposing looking wall of earth before the top. It isn't really massive, and every kid in a 3mile radius can probably do it. But to me it looks big (it isn't). So I have been hitting the lip and hipping off to one side. Getting higher, further and a bit more sideways over a couple of weekends when I pass by it. Easily enough height now consistently to land on top and not case it into the earth. But that took 2 weekends.
I went back last weekend to do it....and its been flattened... rubbish and now the trails are shut for 2 weeks too.

I definitely have fear/confidence issues, and am often in the situation whereby I bottle out of stuff I know is well within my reach, this is especially the case with a decent sized gap or a drop where there is not an option to come up short (ie the safely net).

When allowed (lockdown obvs) I've started to ride with one or more others (after a long time spent riding mostly solo) and we are all a pretty similar standard.  What this means is that if one does it, then all tend to do it as we know it's within our ability and no-one wants to get left behind on the progression front.  It's also handy as that if one of us knows the trail, then the others can follow knowing that the features are 'doable', this has meant that I've just ridden stuff which on my own I would have stopped to think about.

What has also helped is repetition on features.  For example one week we found a line of 3 doubles (not big dirt jump types, just fairly mellow ones up to about 10ft gap).  Had a few practice goes before linking them up, they're now the warm up features if we ride that area.  Same with a drop in the same area.  Again not huge at 4-5 ft, but one that has to be launched as it has a shelf before the landing, also a dodgy run in.  We eyed it up and I'd probably have bottled it on my own, but with eyes on did a couple of runs to the side and then hit it no issues before the others also did it.  Again, next visit back to that area, it was straight off it without thinking.  The next step is a 6ft vertical (about 8 ft once you land with the gap to clear), it has a much better run in and I know that I can do it but am going to need to dig deep can get over my demons, but I feel better equipped now I've done the smaller one.  We're all in our early 40s but getting such a buzz out of progressing.

Also if you have a bikepark near that can be useful.  Rogate is fairly local to me and the great thing is that it's very progressive and well built.  You can start small and build up. Looking forward to the reopening as we have plenty more to tick off there.

Same here.
That collarbone is playing with your mind despite what you say!
I did mine in June 2019 and now I shit myself when faced with any kind of drop/gap.
The thought of reliving that pain floods back and shuts down any thought of a relaxed and natural manoeuvre. There's a 'jump line' near me that features a log drop - not huge but committing by the time you've hit it at a decent speed. I sessioned that line in the summer last year and pieced it together bit by bit. I must have ridden up to the drop 8 times and bottled it every time. All I could think about was the pain when I crashed. Then I just thought 'sod it' and landed it perfectly twice followed by a not so good landing. Ridden it once since. Now I reckon it would be a headf*ck again!

I'm 50 too and still improving (plenty of room..).

Something that really helped me last year was a tape measure. I measured the tabletops that we built at our local jump spot, and one or two hips I've built locally, I then measured the nearby gaps that had me spooked. Logic said I could do them so I did, repeatedly.

If something scares me, I either seek it out, or build it and then practice it till it becomes normal. Still have days when I'm spooked though and don't like to have to hit a corner too soon after a testing feature.

It also helps if you have a mate who is not only better than you but good at breaking a feature down. Way better than a mate who says go fast or get your weight back...

it's all just risk/reward, whatever fear you have, you need to overcome with that argument, you can go and get better, practice jumps/drops/etc, but it'll come down to appetite for 'what if' it goes wrong, same for me, have done the collarbone, ribs, knee, etc, etc over the last few years, coming back is slow, confidence is built up through practice, baby steps and building skills that are useful, but i still won't hit stuff where i just feel the risk/reward is just not siding with reward, those drops that even if you fail 1 in 10 times, could lead to a nasty one.

I do enjoy just doing skills day stuff, where you hunt out a suitable place, and just play, for drops i have a place i go that has 2, 3, 4 and 5 foot drops to flat, you can keep speed into them, or take it off, so in a play i'll just master the 2 footer, then 3 footer, i'll practice landing back wheel first, front wheel first then both, you do need to break it up with a bit of messing about, but a couple of hours just doing that gets you feeling confident that you can switch how you land for the terrain, as my issue is i always overdo it and can get rear wheel first quite a lot, which can be scary when hitting a downslope!

As an old instructor for another sport used to say to me, practice makes permanent, so make sure you're practicing the right things, if in doubt, 1 to 1 lesson.

I reckon technique, the other is the mental confidence you can apply that technique when you need it. If you crash, as I did recently, particularly on a trail you’ve nailed 50 times, it knocks that belief in your confidence. I have a trail near me with a small feature that I’d cleared often enough for me not to worry much about it, once I’d had a few deep breaths, but one day I did stack it and damaged my ribs, and it knocked me for six. I’ve taken the chicken line for 5years now, yet I’m so much a better rider and hit more complex features all the time. The mind is complex.

I reckon any coach worth their salt should be covering the mental side, not just technique.

Thanks all. I think technique and repetition do help, and I certainly progress more the more I ride. I watched Remy's video which is an interesting take on the topic and also came across this video which I think explains a few things nicely in terms of building up to something. I can really relate to taking 3 years to build up and doing hundreds and hundreds of reps of the escape line 🤣 It also describes what I think paulneenan76 is describing - the line becomes a habit, if that's the tricky line that's great but when the habit becomes the chicken line, it's something that'll need work to break. Sharing here for the other nearly 50's too 🙂 The drops course on the same channel is an interesting take on the technical side too (I am in no way related to the channel, just one of those that I found felt quite relevant to me)

Same here, I find a trail centre/bike park visit helps restore confidence. BPW always restores my mojo for drops, however they've not been a option recently.

Yeah, BPW has some good stuff there, even on a push up you can just session the likes of A470 to get the drop and tables, hotstepper as well, it's just a case of finding that fun bit to practice and getting there a few times, FoD is good for me, can get there quickly, and know that if i want to practice tables, then the skills park has good ones, as does up top at GBU, drops i can head over a bit into wastelands, same with gaps, so lots of practice in a small area without too knackering climbs.

But, falls do happen unfortunately, knowing how to ditch is a good thing as well, i find the worst falls are those that are unexpected, the runs you've done a hundred times without thinking, then you come off, not much you can do for that though, except some armour!