[Closed] MTB coaching vs. equestrian coaching musings

I know what you mean by MTB training is looked down upon, I did a skills course, got some useful things out of it and learn't a lot which I try and employ when I'm out.

Some of my riding buddies thought it was a good opportunity to take the piss about needing to do it or the fact it costs £80 a day.

Funny thing is the majority of them could certainly do with it themselves.

whilst it may look like it sometimes, my bike isnt a mental animal with a mind of its own...

Although I understand what you are saying I think there is a major difference between riding horses and riding bikes.

Horse are alive and can do things you don't tell them to.

Edit: Too slow!!

whilst it may look like it sometimes, my bike isnt a mental animal with a mind of its own...

I'm not talking about the fundamental diference between a bike and a horse, rather the difference in approach to rider coaching. I still don't see why bike coaching couldn't follow the little-and-often approach - the fact that horses are alive and bikes aren't is neither here nor there.

Besides, the way you see some people ride, it does appear as if the bike is doing things they're not telling it to... 😉

My wife has horses and usually has a lesson a week.

In fact after a pal and I did an MTB training day last year a number of folk commented along the lines of "learning to ride your bike?".

I just replied with the comment "Andy Murray has a coach".

Mtb coaching requires specific terrain which might not be near by so travel time might make short sessions impractical.

I think the horse being alive is important here. You do a lot for that horse, even wash it bits!! So you want to know that you are treating it properly and that you and it are enjoying what you are doing together*.

With bikes, you just jump on and rag it around. Some people feel they need a bit of coaching to move to the next level. Some people are happy to stay at their current level or just try stuff out to expand their abilities a bit.

I've been riding bikes foe 35 years or so. I don't have the skillz or balls that some of my riding buddies have but i have a laugh and can keep up generally even though some have had coaching.

I'm never gonna race, so for me i don't see the point of a lesson. My biking time is at a premium and they are pricey too! I don't think people are looking down on mtb coaching though.

*I'm not talking about washing horses bits here!!

I've brought this up before, but comparing it to tennis coaching. Again it is pretty normal to have tennis coaching and often once a week. Around £10 for an hour and a bit in a larger group or £50 or so for 1:1. As ac282 mentions you'd need some terrain to coach on but there's plenty near major urban centres and trail centres are often busy. A regular midweek evening session would be quite nice with either just coaching and sessioning or as part of a fun ride.

Again, I'm not talking about [i]why[/i] people have coaching! I'm wondering why MTB coaching is of the intensive-but-infrequent style as opposed to the way most other sports are coached.

I imagine most people who start riding don't have a horse/pony, so that's a big reason to go to a riding school.

I've brought this up before, but comparing it to tennis coaching. Again it is pretty normal to have tennis coaching and often once a week. Around £10 for an hour and a bit in a larger group or £50 or so for 1:1. As ac282 mentions you'd need some terrain to coach on but there's plenty near major urban centres and trail centres are often busy. A regular midweek evening session would be quite nice with either just coaching and sessioning or as part of a fun ride.

Yes - this! It'd be great, every fortnight or so, to be able to meet up with an instructor at a specific location, work on a few things for an hour or so, then go away for a couple of weeks to work on them before the next session. It could be something as simple as properly nailing tight switchbacks or something - you only need a tiny section of trail for that.

One of the biggest mistakes amateurs in any sport make is getting something right once and leavng it at that - the pros will repeat it over and over until it's second nature.

I imagine most people who start riding don't have a horse/pony, so that's a big reason to go to a riding school.

I had a day with a coach that cost £250. It put me off riding for a few months. I felt a bit silly paying so much afterwards. I think something like the equine approach sounds far better.

One of the biggest mistakes amateurs in any sport make is getting something right once and leavng it at that - the pros will repeat it over and over until it's second nature.

Been going back up and trying stuff more and more recently. It works and honestly being able to ride stuff better is more satisfying

It's also about getting your technique right regardless of the scale of the obstacle - plenty of people can ride off a kerb but how many can ride off a 6' drop? Plenty can pop a 2' jump on a horse, but how many can jump 4'6"? If you have the right technique then the size is irrelevant.

That's getting away from the point though; that's for the "why coaching?" debate, as opposed to the style and type of coaching discussion here.

So, any coaches/instructors care to weigh in?

One of the biggest mistakes amateurs in any sport make is getting something right once and leavng it at that - the pros will repeat it over and over until it's second nature.

OP I rode a pony for three years and never had a single lesson aside from advice from the owners (I used to ride their second pony after my mate their son got a younger, larger pony). Lessons where out of the question as my parents couldn't have afforded it. People have horse lessons as they don't own a horse. I think mtb-ing is quite different

Few points:

Culture - you can go and buy a cheap bike and ride it, throw it in the shed and then get it out a few weeks later. When you learn to ride you can't do that so you end up going to a center where the only option is normally a lesson (occasionally a hack). Also generally horses are more dangerous, you may fall off learning to ride a bike but it is unlikely you'll get kicked in the head for not cleaning it right.

When you ride a bike you are learning yourself. You can practice skills etc. on your own. Sometimes it is obvious if you are right or wrong (generally because you are lying face down in the dirt when wrong).
When you ride a horse you are both learning. If you ride a horse badly it learns bad habits - The horse my wife shares is well trained. I can make it do flying changes over jumps. The ones down the stable will try and duck out or refuse a jump at every opportunity. I think this makes the training side more important.

Cycling is more like trail riding or hacking. You don't need some of the finer skills to just go and do it. On a hack if the leader goes into canter, most of the horses will follow and it doesn't matter which leg you lead with. However, dressage, jumping, xc etc. require a higher level of skill so are probably not comparable.

One of the biggest mistakes amateurs in any sport make is getting something right once and leavng it at that - the pros will repeat it over and over until it's second nature.

Not quite sure that I agree with this. Professionals or high level competitors are focused on what they need to practice to succeed in my experience. For example any horse very rarely has 3 good paces. It would be bonkers to spend your time on the pace which you know that your horse is a natural in. You will spend far more time on something you know that you need at the level you are at that your horse is not a natural in.

OP I rode a pony for three years and never had a single lesson aside from advice from the owners (I used to ride their second pony after my mate their son got a younger, larger pony). Lessons where out of the question as my parents couldn't have afforded it. People have horse lessons as they don't own a horse. I think mtb-ing is quite different

Although, on your point of "People have horse lessons as they don't own a horse" - incorrect. Average level riders, riding or competing at the equestrian equivalent of trail centre blue/red level will generally be having lessons every week - hence my reason for asking why MTB coaches don't offer this sort of regular, shorter-period coaching as opposed to the longer but less frequent type.

hence my reason for asking why MTB coaches don't offer this sort of regular, shorter-period coaching as opposed to the longer but less frequent type.

Average level riders, riding or competing at the equestrian equivalent of trail centre blue/red level will generally be having lessons every week

At the stables my wife uses this isn't the case. Most just school the horse themselves and hack out. They are not on expensive horses and are not competing. Seen plenty of other who ride horses like this.

My wife has only had a handful of lessons on her horse in the last few years. I only have lessons as a means to access horses.

I'm asking why the STYLE of lessons is different...

Average level riders, riding or competing at the equestrian equivalent of trail centre blue/red level will generally be having lessons every week

At the stables my wife uses this isn't the case. Most just school the horse themselves and hack out. They are not on expensive horses and are not competing. Seen plenty of other who ride horses like this.

My wife has only had a handful of lessons on her horse in the last few years. I only have lessons as a means to access horses.

[b]mikewsmith[/b], I think that's something to do with people wanting to spend their money on a tangible "thing" they can have, rather than something intangible like a lesson.

Again though, what I'm asking here is not the reason for having lessons; rather the reason for the difference in [i]type[/i] of lessons that those who do have them, have! Sorry for repeating myself, but we seem to be answering the wrong question here 😉

Forget I even mentioned horses! See the post about tennis coaching above - little and often. Golf lessons are the same - short lessons but regularly. Why isn't this offered for biking?

short lessons but regularly. Why isn't this offered for biking?

Interesting question.

I wondered the same thing recently after speaking to a swimming coach. To me, swimming and cycling are roughly comparable in terms of how key a factor coachable skill is to overall performance. Plus, both are often learned in childhood, unlike horse riding which I imagine a greater number of adults would come to as novices (though admittedly I've no idea).

IME, most adults seem more likely to see the value in swim coaching than they do in MTB coaching, although perhaps that's skewed somewhat by the fact that adults who'd possibly consider coaching (aside from complete novices) are likely to be actively competing.

A few things could explain this - the price of poor technique is probably higher in swimming (as you'll almost certainly be slower and swallow a whole load of water) and also the fact that poor technique can be compensated for - to a not insignificant degree in MTB - by buying kit. There's a whole lot less kit to buy for swimming as well, so perhaps coaching is considered much sooner, once you've bought the best Speedos you can.

Perhaps its the fact that two riders with vastly different skill levels can go out on bikes and have exactly the same amount of fun that makes most people view MTB coaching as a luxury, rather than something the average rider would consider. Ultimately that's one of the great things about cycling!

You'd need bikers to get into the groove of regular coaching to improve the skills though, thus providing a skills trainer to get a regular slot/income.

Why get an adhoc £30 an hour one-on-one training with someone to ride a bike when you have a group of people turn up and pay £200 each for a weekends course?

It's probably to do with distance to travel and therefore the time it takes. If you own horses or go riding the stables are likely to be relatively close to your house and if you own the horse you're there every day to muck out, ride out etc so to have a little and often lesson just replaces one of your normal rides. Similarly with tennis you're likely to be in the local club which will be relatively close to you and will go once or twice per week - relatively easy to use that visit as a lesson.

With mountain biking there are far fewer suitable locations - most instructors will be based at trail centres. Do I want to go to the same trail centre every week for a lesson of an hour then do my own riding or do I want to ride my bike in different places. Have a think next time you drive to a trail centre how many horse stables or tennis courts/clubs/leisure centres you have driven past.

In addition - how many people are fit enough to survive a days tennis coaching?

It's not really apples to apples as others have already said, however...

Maybe if you think broader to expand "MTB lessons" to coaching in a broader sense then you could ask why don't more riders regular meet up with a coach to analyse their powermeter data for example... the answer is um... a lot at the racey competitive end of the spectrum which is similar to the equestrian types you seem to be talking about... do exactly that. MTB and cycling is broader than just skills coaching.

The real problem is the average MTB rider on STW isn't representative of the cyclist which most closely resembles the competitive equestrian chap or chapette. Perhaps the best comparison to competitive equestrian lessons is finding another group with a driven passion, sh1t ton of money and no proper day job 😀 Amateur "triathletes" and "ironmen" often fall in to this category and do actually invest a lot of time and money to get the most dialled aero position, fitness testing, PM coaching, training camps... the lot. Hell even a smidge of EPO and electrical assist motors for Masters racing and Grand Fondos... how more dedicated do you want the racey cycling end of the spectrum to be 😆

Oh, and we do have our own form of regular skills coaching, it is a precise combination of group rides with better riders and a smattering of p1ss taking. You can't really organise a social dressage bimble with the local hot shot but you can ride and learn a lot from the faster people in your area which many do

I guess the final point on the equestrian lessons is you are doing it for the horse more than anything at the upper ends of the competitive types, both fitness and the technical sides. I guess a lot of the time you are having the lesson to make use of the facilities as much as anything too.

I wonder if there is as much difference as you think?

There are a LOT of purely leisure MTBers who never have ANY coaching of any kind, since they were taught to ride a bike aged 5. And the lesser proportion, the keen MTBers who regularily ride and want to push their boundaries to improve their skills do things like uplift days etc. Not diretc coaching, but with a faster/better mate, probably the end result is the same?

I'm sure plenty of people have ad-hoc equestrian coaching every now and then, when on holiday perhaps, but i suspect far far fewer have a proper regular coaching plan, especially those that own their own horse etc? Ie, lots of people go to riding "lessons" to ride horses, because they haven't got one at home 😉

It might also be that a good number of MTB coaches are charlatans. So they need to make as much cash from as many people as possible, in as few visits as they can get away with.

Taking 200 quid off someone once is easy. Trying to take 20 quid off them 10 times is a lot harder. Especially if you have little/nothing to offer.
(I base this on a few guys i've ridden with over the years setting up road and MTB coaching based on their fantastically wide and high level experience (HA!) and their advanced training (BC level 2))

The key term is "competitive" because for the massive majority, we aren't.

Anyone who sticks a number on starts thinking about coaching unless you really are only putting the number on to ride around at the back and have a giggle

Thinking about it, the horses analogy is more like musical instruments; you need lessons of some sort to get you going and depending on the instrument more than others. Eg guitars can be self taught with assistance from the internet but you can't for a violin unless you're happy to sound like dogshit

Some interesting points raised so far, and definitely a few that I hadn't thought of, such as locations for coaching - I guess having Swinley, Tunnel Hill, Caesar's Camp, and the Surrey Hills all within half an hour's drive means I'm spoiled for variations on trails and areas to train on. I get that a lot of people learn from their riding buddies, and this happens in horse-riding too, but I'm kind of antisocial and don't really like riding with big groups of people! I do enjoy getting better at things I like doing though, hence my interest in getting some coaching; I just didn't necessarily want to do it the way it's currently done.

Just to say I'm fascinated by the OPs original question.

My wife rides horses (and bikes) and has a lesson every 1-2 weeks, pays £18-30 depending what it is, who's coaching, how many other riders.

I'd happily pay £20 for an hour's ride with 2-3 other bikers of a similar level and a decent coach as long as it was local - 15 min drive max.

Maybe reason it doesn't exist is that many 'recreational' horsists do aim to compete, even at a low level, and are judged on technique. Lots of nursery/novice classes around in SJ and dressage. It's kinda the only way up from riding in your own yard's arena.

By contrast, a recreational MTBer may aspire not to race but to go for a weekend in the Lakes or in Torridon, or to ride a big drop in the local woods. Even if you do want to race and choose something easy to enter, if it's Mountain Mayhem you really don't need good technical skills to get round. Nobody judging technique and giving you a scoresheet either!

I don't think MTBing is that hard. We learn basic cycling as kids; plenty of kids get more than basic skills just messing about. Kind of hard to do that swimming, and perhaps hard on a horse I dunno. So when we hit the trails, most of it's about refining these skills and learning through trial and error.

Those good people you see whipping down your local trails - do you think they were coached? Almost certainly not. Sometimes people learn from each other, like rock-climbers might do. I never heard of anyone having climbing lessons after they started out. Lessons are for beginners to get their head round it and to learn the safety stuff.

Plus - MTBing for a lot of people isn't about going fast - it's about getting out there and having a laugh. You don't have to do big jumps or shave seconds off your time. It's like going for a walk, but faster and more fun. Like 'hacking' referred to above, I suppose.

I'd love to do some sort of regular MTB classes.

As a coach i always found it hugely beneficial to see players on a very regular basis as you can see how they are progressing, make minor adjustments, or bump up the difficulty as appropriate. I've run full day group events too, and whilst the players enjoy a full day playing, its certainly not as beneficial as breaking that time into smaller regular sessions.

Still tempted by a couple of half day 1-to-1 sessions on the bike, but its a lot of cash to invest in something where i don't have someone watching to make sure i'm on the right track.

I think it's just the nature of mountain biking that coaching isn't really a thing. Just getting out riding is good enough for most of us, so committing to regular training isn't a consideration. This is certainly the case for me, I'm only getting out once a week at the moment so I wouldn't dream of turning my only ride into a training session.
Go over to road racing and it seems like most riders are following a training plan and have a coach or take part in club training.
There's no shortage of riders in your area so why not approach a local coach and see if you can get a few people together to do it.

I don't think MTBing is that hard.

Those good people you see whipping down your local trails - do you think they were coached? Almost certainly not. Sometimes people learn from each other,

Lessons are for beginners to get their head round it and to learn the safety stuff.

Week or so back we went out with some mates and spent a good few hours sessioning some local jumps and lines with the camera out, took video's showed people what was happeneing and tried to explain why things were not working out.
For some it was being able to jump without nosediving or to get through some obsticles, others it was line choice and approach etc.

Last all in bike holiday included some coaching as you went, halped get the most out of the trip and a little every day brought everyone along over the course of the trip.

I wished when I was younger I'd had someone to teach me some of the key skills early on and then been able to build on them over time. It takes a long time to get over bad habits and now I'm not at the point where I can take the fails of learning by crashing so much.

No it's not, it's also really easy to do it really badly.

But still have plenty of fun in the process. For many people it doesn't matter how bad you are.

The problem with MTB (in my mind) that makes it really hard to progress technical skills without supervision is the penalty for failure.
If you want to try and get more topsin on your backhand at tennis then maybe you miss a bunch practising. If you want to lean the bike more and perfect weight distribution to corner faster, the penalty is falling off lots, which for (sane people at least) is not fun and hurts.

Ultimately though mtbing is like all cycling mostly fitness dependent. You can have all the skills you want but if you are an unfit, fatty they forget it. For the average STW rider who thinks mtbing is a slow ride, with frequent stops and a few pints in the pub at the end, then a coach would be the biggest waste of money ever.

I think the biggest example of this is skiing v snowboarding. Nobody seems to get more than a week of snowboarding coaching, but the majority I see out really could do with it. Not least because they push and pull their turns with back foot rather. But also to learn mountain craft especially off piste, even if safe Canada off piste

Same with surfing, I am pretty good but get coaching session every now and then too improve technique. Hugely helpful to have someone else who can see why eg losing snap off cut backs etc.

I'm sure I'd benefit from MTB coaching too.

I had begun to think that I was the only person who was looking for the style of coaching that the OP was referring to but for some reason in the world of MTB it is virtually impossible to find (part of it is reflected in what Ghostlymachine says above about charlatans, some of it I believe is down to the fact that many interchange coaching with guiding, given that most tuition within the MTB world has evolved from guiding).

Most guides to learning/tuition that I have ever come across in other walks of life has talked about breaking the information into small chunks and then practicing that information to embed it followed by a check (review/test) to ensure it is embedded before moving on. This doesn't happen when you have a one off day where you are bombarded with information - generally people will only remember a few of the things that they were shown and even then in a corrupted form. I am lucky enough to be able to ride in a local woods that has plenty of features so I do session stuff to try and improve my skills - I would love to find a good coach to spend an hour a week with to work through my bad habits which I can work on eradicating - it would then mean that my trips to BPW and the like would be more fulsome because I would be better able to use the facilities (if I have bad technique on a 4 foot gap what chance have I got in scaling it up).

more like musical instruments; you need lessons of some sort to get you going and depending on the instrument more than others. Eg guitars can be self taught with assistance from the internet

It can, but trust me.. more often than not the "self-taught" people have ingrained bad 'form'. as a once frustrated guitar learner who bit the bullet and got lessons they really did teach something you'd never learn off that (great mind you!) justin bloke on youtube.

the whole problem is feedback.wihtout anyone to correct your mistakes you could end up like those people who turn up on the x-factor and can't believe they don't sound great, because they trust their tone-deaf mother over someone who wants to exploit their talent for cash - if they had any.

That aside.. I view 'skills' practice in probably a different way from many. I'm a ex-skateboarder.. and a lot the time is spent 'trying' to learn and do tricks, not just doing them. so its always a session. there are even 'training' games built around being able to consistently do the tricks which force you to try tricks you couldn't usually. its similar with BMX. in those environments your peers help you.

With both skateboarding and guitar a key thing is to keep doing it regularly. So ride more, practice and get advice from your peers, and if necessary some pro-tuition could really help.

I keep thinking about getting some coaching, particularly as there are areas of my riding I'd like to work at.

I think I'd be much keener to get a regular session with a coach than a half day session. Essentially, I've never had any coaching, and so much as when I've been out with far better riders I've been given some really useful tips, I don't have that feedback to know I'm actually putting those tips into practice correctly! Having done karate a long time ago, and even done a bit of coaching in that myself, I'm aware of how different what you are doing and what you think you are doing can be.

I feel like if I did have any coaching, anything I do would be so ingrained that one or two half days would never get it out of my system.

Still tempted by a couple of half day 1-to-1 sessions on the bike, but its a lot of cash to invest in something where i don't have someone watching to make sure i'm on the right track.

A 1-1 day with Jedi or Nathan is the best £210 you'll ever spend on your biking, a group (public ie 8 people) lesson is £95 (prices from memory)

OP make no doubt coaching/lessons are fabulous but unlike horse riding where you go once a week which in many casis is yoir riding, on biking you go once every few years and ride / practice (ie session) the rest of the time. If the majority of riding I did was in a group or on lessons I probably would give up.

I could do with safe practice more than coaching. I *know* I have the skills to do big jumps/doubles/gaps but I don't have the balls. Some really nice easy progressively larger jumps to 'session'.

The planks at Cwmcarn were good.. RIP Cwmcarn planks...

I think it's a great question to be honest

Regular golferists will get a lesson to help with part of their game

Even hobbyist motorcyclists doing the odd trackday will get an instructor for a session to provide a few pointers (I know I have, and I definitely won't be racing)

I coach mainly at jnr/youth level but have coached adults also. What does surprise me is the reluctance of some people to consider coaching but I do think the image of MTB'ing has a bit of problem as reflected by the GNAR rating of photos of downhill racing, getting air, gap jumps and all the other stuff that even the most committed of us only do 10% of the time. I was skiing for the first time in 5 years back in Feb and didn't hesitate to choose a lesson to get me back in the groove. I do get requests from time to time at my local club to put on adult coaching for MTB. For some I think they don't want their deficiencies exposed and I have friends who can ride a bit but would really benefit from some structured coaching, yet I know they would never do it.

This is a good and relevant point :

If you want to lean the bike more and perfect weight distribution to corner faster, the penalty is falling off lots, which for (sane people at least) is not fun and hurts.

This type of coaching certainly does exist. My closest trail centre (well bike park) offers a wide variety of weekly and monthly coaching options for adults and kids. I know other trail centres I frequent offer coaching and I suspect they can offer a similar arrangement.

Before I moved recently there was a guy who lived nearby who was in the coaching game. I know he would have happily agreed to an hour or so every few weeks or months for a cost less than those horsey prices.

Also my cycling club used to run an informal coaching session once a week in the summer. Just where a couple of more experienced riders helped pass on a few skills. Even just cycling regularly with a club is a good way of picking up tips from others who are a bit better or a bit more knowledgeable.

There's certainly other options out there other than paying many hundreds of pounds for a one off day's coaching.

There's am element of "it's just bikes, everyone can ride a bike, right?"

There's also an element of riding the terrain you've got. The riding I did in the Chilterns has almost nothing in common to the riding I do now in Calderdale. If I'd have done training here and then moved to the Chilterns all those lessons would have been pretty pointless.

There's an element of knowing that to be good at something (coached or not) you need to do it over and over and over and over and over and over and over...And for many people MTB is the "thing they do on a Sunday morning" to get away from the kids and the missus for a couple of hours. The idea of doing a corner or a drop of or nailing a rock entry to a series of drops enough times so it becomes second nature is anathema, there just isn't the time.

There's an element of most folk knowing that they've got to get to work on Monday morning. I can't rock up to work with teeth missing or my face smashed up 'cause I was spending all Sunday nailing that tricky DH steep switch back with the rock in the middle that forces you to go for the corner gap...

Some people offer this style of coaching, and it seems popular:
[url= http://www.alinecoaching.co.uk/the-evening-sessions/ ]All booked up this year [/url]

Halfway of mtb coaching you have said is £200, that is 4 hours. 1 hour with the Olympiad is £70...so 4 hours would be £280...
You can't 'get' multiple things in 1 hour on a bike...it needs time to run through it and start to Embed it...horse riding, I think, has less large bad habits to break so an hour seems more beneficial.