[Closed] Moving to flats from clip-ins

You can learn to hop with them (its the "proper" way apparently), and if you stick with them and put in some effort you should minimize the downsides and maximise the benefits but whether they are for you only you can answer.

I won't be going back to flats ever again.
Mainly because my shins now look like a canvas of scar tissue. I saw a horiffic shin injury recently where a kid slipped a pedal at the BMX track. About 15 inch 2cm wide gash. Could see tendons and all sorts. Grim.

I love my clipps. I never dab my feet and have become faster and more confident. I carry more speed to make sure I clear obstacles without issue. One drawback is that I find a difficult trials obstacle now and again where I don't want to be clipped in to attempt it.. Other than that, I can't think of a drawback.

First time out I used my usual shoes with the time clip-in plate still in place and it was not good, the metal on metal made it a bit slippy

Why? Why would you even try that? A [i]bit[/i] slippy!! 😆

Proper shoes and decent flats don't feel that much less grippy than spds - you just lose the ability to pull up on the cleat to jump, but you then have to learn the "proper" way to pull up, which is a back and up motion of the foot (kinda, it's complicated).

Use what works for you, neither is [i]right[/i]. I mix between the 2 depending on where I'm riding and/or if I can be bothered to change the pedals.

I dislike the inability to pull a pedal into place on a back stroke,

Unless you've only got one leg I can't see how that works?  If you are a biped then just use the leg that's pushing down to move the pedals either way.  Oh and get some decent shoes and you can pull flat pedals back too.

If you're coming from clips the chances are you've got the pedal too far forward on your foot.  Clips generally sit under the ball of your foot but with flats you want them a bit further back so the body of the pedal spans from the arch to the ball of your foot.

Hopping is all about the push/unweight, not yanking the bike with your feet.

For me, clipping in is all about the correct foot placement. I've ridden flats for years so bunny hopping was learnt the 'correct' way. I can still ride flats but the security of knowning the bike is attached (sort of) and knowing my foot will always be in the same place is the biggest benefit for me.

Using Nukeproof Horizon CL and five ten's

Swings and roundabouts. I'm happy on both, and I think there's a place for both. I didn't learn to ride a bike until I was 19 and within 3 months I had toeclips and after 6 months spds, so when I started using flats it took me a LOOOOONG time to develop the skills. My shins are a mess these days, but equally, I've slipped spuds plenty of times and taken a hell of a clout.

The only place I find flats actively "worse" than clips is long loose steep technical climbs right on the edge of traction - spin the back wheel and you're off, where on spuds you just end up spinning circles until you get grip again. The solution just appears to be to go faster and attack more! On the other hand any riding that involves smashing the arse out of corner, especially if its steep and slippy - flats every time. It's not so much the ability to get a foot down when needed, as to get it back planted on the pedal. Its a horrible feeling coming into an awful corner with the wrong foot unclipped and not gripping.

For general riding - drop your saddle slightly (1/4" ish) and drop your heels as you pedal - so you're pushing into the pedals more. Descending - dropper posts are awesome with flats. Weight low, heels down (like proper stretch in the calves down) and work the bike, The less you think about it, the more natural they'll feel.

Hopping is all about the push/unweight, not yanking the bike with your feet.

You can't 'yank' your bike in clips...if you do so then you'll be off your bike pretty quick smart. It's a myth that clips promote poor technique...you still need technique with clips. Poor technique is not the reserve of those riding clipless pedals.

Unless you’ve only got one leg I can’t see how that works?

It does work and you can get a lot more power out of it. Takes practice and requires strengthening the muscles in your hips and your hamstrings before it becomes natural. You miss it when you don't have it. There is a full 360 degrees of motion so why just limit yourself to about 180 degrees? Using the back 180 degrees reduces fatigue on your quads and gleuts, gives you a smoother pedal motion and generally a more balanced pedalling action.

Just ride what you feel most comfortable in whether that be flats or clipless. There is no better or correct method. If you're happy on one or the other I  don't see the point is changing. Just crack on as you always have.

I was in a similar boat but I now love flats - but invest in proper sticky shoes - the difference is massive.  The other thing I found is that you need to have your foot in a different place - with the pedal much more centrally positioned on your foot, rather than on the ball of your foot as you’d ride with clips - this makes it a lot easier to scoop back and up to achieve bunny hops etc

i still tend to use ball of foot for max efficiency when pedalling up though...

It does work and you can get a lot more power out of it.

Ah I read the comment as reversing a pedal into position by pulling it backwards, not pulling on the upstroke of normal pedalling

It's a myth that the power from clips in pulling back etc is significant I'm told.

If you’re never ridden flats it’ll be a bit of a learning curve but it is satisfying when you get it.

A few thoughts:

Get decent shoes. 5-10’s are one of the best options but if you don’t want to spend loads of money go to sports direct and et some cheap skate shoes for under £20. They’ll grip well enough with a waffle sole, just I find they can be a bit bendy.

Peddle needs to sit further back under your foot and you need to push your heels down for more grip.

If you can’t bunny hop / lift the bike over stuff without spds you need to learn to bunny hop ASAP. You’ll need to pull the front up like you’d do a manual (not just arms, but push forward with your hips / feet), then transfer your weight forward and suck the back of the bike up under you.

I’m just going back to clips after a few years off and I quite like them. For me, the main benefits of flats is not being attached to the bike on steep tech stuff. I can get out of spds quite quickly, but not as quick as getting a foot down with flats.

It’s a myth that the power from clips in pulling back etc is significant I’m told.

You end up with a less powerful down stroke.

https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/how-long-does-it-take-to-get-used-to-clipless-pedals/

There is definitely a lot more power from using the upstroke with clips. I used to do a lot of spinning where the bikes were linked up to power readings (and in fact the class was about competing to generate the most energy overall). Going several times a week and using the same bike to eliminate errors meant I could repeat my average power inputs pretty closely especially with the same tutor. Learning to then pull up effectively made a very significant difference.

I ride with both intermittently, I much prefer clips for fast local riding as they're just that little bit more efficient (it's mostly because you're pushing directly on metal, not 1/2" of energy sapping foam) but do like flats for unfamiliar and more technical trails.

Jumping and bunny hops are slightly different.

Jumping - you just unweight the bike as it goes over the jump, the bike goes through it's path in the air and so do you, unless you lift your feet up of the pedals then you and the bike should stay together.

Bunny hops - practice, it's (in my head anyway) more about pushing the bike forwards as you push your bum down and back to lift the front wheel (nothing to do with your arms) then pushing down on the back wheel once the bike is at an angle to the floor (image at the extreme with the bike vertical and you push down just on the rear wheel then as you hit the top of your jump pulling the bars beings the bike up with you, like that but you're only at 20/30/40deg to the ground).

Bunny hopping (cheating) in clips is basically pulling the bike up 6" off the floor quicker than gravity pulls your COG down. If you master bunny hops on flats and get decent height then you can do the same in clips.

Learning to then pull up effectively made a very significant difference.

Were you measuring your heart rate at the same time, and all the other variables?

Thanks for the views, think I'll try some better shows and persevere a little longer

cynic-al - yes, heart rate and power output monitored

Tim, if you want cheap shoes the link below is pretty much what I bought initially and they work ok. They also seem to dry fairly quickly and are pretty much wipe clean. There seem to be some cheaper versions too.

https://www.sportsdirect.com/soviet-whitehall-shoes-110057?colcode=11005705

There is another thread running with a psa for 5-10’s for £50 though. I’d say they are better with grip and the thicker sole means your foot gets less tired on big rocky downhills than cheaper skate shoes. Once they get wet though, they take ages to dry out. I’ve got 5-10 freerider elements so they’re a bit splash proof but once they’re wet they’re wet. Even with shoe warmers in them (in the garage) hey can take a couple of days to dry out.

<div class="bbp-reply-author">ononeorange
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There is definitely a lot more power from using the upstroke with clips.

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Pulling up makes little of no difference to power output at anything other than sprint pace.

There's several ways to prove that:

1) Power output is linked to cardiovascular fitness, you can only go as fast as your heart can pump blood, your lungs can oxygenate it, the bloods capacity for oxygen and your muscles capacity to convert oxygen into energy. Pulling up does nothing for those. All it does is split the effort between different muscles. You can prove this looking at the power outputs of different (but similar mechanically aided) sports like rowing, wheelchair racing, hand cycles etc, they all have very similar power outputs despite using arms, legs and different motions (pulling and pushing).

2) The pulling up muscles are vastly smaller to the pushing down muscles. It's your hip flexors Vs your quads. Try it, do a body weight squat, easy isnt it.  Now hang yourself from your feet and try and bend your knees (even without trying you know that's impossible).

3) Get a more detailed power meter, even the Pro's don't even fully unweight their back leg on the upstroke! The power meter is still doing the sum of front foot - back foot = torque.

4) You weigh ~800N, your bike cranks have throw of about 0.35m, your cadence is about 85. If you were pushing at 100% (which means your back leg is unweighted but still doing nothing let alone pulling up) you would be doing 800W*.  Remember what I said about sprinting? An average cyclists threshold power is about 250W. You can pull up, but only when sprinting.

The efficiency gains from SPD's are almost entirely down to the shoe construction not having a thick layer of rubber and foam in the sole.

*800N (force) x 0.35 (cranks throw) x 2 (legs) x 85/60 (rev's per second).