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Worth checking out the consumption-based stats too, put together by a women in my office:
The UK doesn't come across quite a well from that perspective.
I’ve been saying this fine years, but I do think one of the best things for the planet would be to ban football. Seriously!
Every weekend for 9 months a year, hundreds of thousands of people in the UK alone travelling the length and breadth of the country, just to watch a football match. Not to mention, every mum and dad driving to local football matches. I passed by the local kids club training last night and the were 20-30 cars waiting on their little ones.
Multiply this across Europe and I think mtb’ers driving once a month to a trail centre is a drop in the ocean.
Actually, going back a few posts, I've recently found using Trailforks has really opened up the riding potential locally. I've been adding as much as I can, but also finding things that I had no idea about. Sometimes within a mile of my house! I found Strava useless for finding new stuff, but all linked together, it works. I think that's a perfect example of a smart use of technology in keeping with this thread. You show me yours, I'll show you mine.
Whilst there is doubtless room for improvement, given the constant bombardment of consumerism by magazines and websites whose main role is to employ folk (most of whom seek a cushy life receiving freebies and travelling the world for the launch of the next big thing) to peddle fresh produce (and staler produce at discounted prices) on behalf of manufacturers, at the same time we have to remember if we don't buy stuff, then progress and innovation stagnate, companies go bust, jobs are lost, and it all kinda sucks.
At the end of the day, we should be encouraging cycling in all it's forms, as not only is it a healthy and enjoyable sport, but a relatively low impact form of transport; the more cyclists there are, the more people to ensure adequate provision for cycling infrastructure, which cuts down on car use and improves the ratio of fitties to fatties.
Which reminds me... the reason pedicabs (rickshaws) are only confined to a few cities in the UK is down to archaic licensing laws and the power of the taxi lobby.
They're a fun mode of transport, with minimal environmental impact which open up employment opportunities and benefit the local economy... surprised more councils haven't been proactive in encouraging their use.
Whilst there is doubtless room for improvement, given the constant bombardment of consumerism by magazines and websites whose main role is to employ folk (most of whom seek a cushy life receiving freebies and travelling the world for the launch of the next big thing) to peddle fresh produce (and staler produce at discounted prices) on behalf of manufacturers, at the same time we have to remember if we don’t buy stuff, then progress and innovation stagnate, companies go bust, jobs are lost, and it all kinda sucks.
This gets to the issue of systemic change. Climate change aside, automation and AI are probably going to put masses of people out of work, so we've got to do something about how the whole model of consumerism works.
I think just buying less often, buying simpler, favouring durability, and travelling less as an individual is useful, but insufficient. Trying to encourage a broader culture where you encourage others to do the same, and information and infrastructure is in place to make this easier (better trains, etc., good info on local routes), is much better. But this too isn't enough for the reasons you say: the whole economic system still requires endlessly churning out new stuff to avoid economic collapse. That's a much bigger challenge.
If the global economy stagnates the investment in developing countries will diminish. China is one of the biggest investors in Africa and it wouldn't happen without mass consumerism
You need to buy more stuff, shirley putting more pressure on better production methods would have a bigger impact globally than reduction of a few bike parts individually.
Even if everyone in the UK stopped buying so much tat the knock on effect in other parts of the world would counter act that marginal gain.
If we buy more tat {with better enviro credentials} then the developing world will be able to join us for the ride :o)
I think we need global economic collapse. Currently, the only way for people like me (not independently wealthy, don't own land) is to consume, or enable the consumption of, the planet in order earn currency to pay the bills.
Aren't those stats above that show reductions in emissions the ones where the UK sneakily left out aeroplane travel?
I very much like the idea of the local riding blog. It's an idea I've had in my head for a while (mainly as an antidote to bloody Instagram). I'd love to write for that if one ever got up and running.
I think 'gravel' bikes have a big part to play. I have a Genesis CDF which is just 'my bike'. I use it for everything except gnar - riding to work, around the lanes from the door, in the woods. I build it from second hand parts and it's a joy just to go ride.
I did move for closer riding. I live 4 miles from the Quantocks, which I really should ride to from the door but I guess driving up there on a Sunday morning is better than the regular 2 hour trips I'd make from where I used to live.
I'm just trying to consume less I suppose. Only have 2 bikes now, sow kit back up, use more robust parts rather than the latest lightweight stuff. No carbon...
Someone mentioned making your own snacks too. I'm trying that at the mo, takes a lot of organisation though.
I should probably change my ST subscription to online only too...
Damn, seems there's some elements in all this that might not immediately spring to mind...
Tour de France condemned over ‘avalanche’ of 15 million bits of plastic thrown to crowd
Appreciate there's no MTB events on quite the same scale, but no doubt there's plenty of long forgotten promotional tat floating around the world's water ways with no intention of decomposing 🤔
^ oh yes, the TdF is a massive waste of energy and resources. Hate to think what goes into it in total. Whether it can justify it or where it sits on the general scale I have no idea.
You could apply the same thoughts to the EWS, DH WC and XC WC though, apart from the vans with giant plastic characters on top and PR people throwing useless tat at that crowds : ) All part of the TdF business.
Appreciate it's hard to criticise the TdF for waste in the global scheme of things, it's part of it but we all are, but if you didn't have global race series you might not have racing so far up the marketing agenda and people may find other ways to promote and enjoy bikes - ie "there's a 100 mile route near me, can I ride it in a day?" vs "ooh, a race at the other end of the country on built trails, best load up the new race rig into the van". Let's be honest, marketing can be inspiring and it works to some extent.
Apply something like that to a lot of activities as well as cycling (football was mentioned - I spoke to a brand agency not long ago about a cool 'everyday ballers' idea they had, about celebrating the local kick-about or 5 aside as greater than the premiership since it was real participation, thought it was great thinking) and maybe it could count.
The local rides blog/site/mag is a good point. Bunyan Velo did it well for a while. I think it's very hard to create/curate enough engaging content to feed something like that, esp if you try to avoid product tests and encouraging consumption. Take away race events and results and product news and you'd be left with the stories of journeys and insights mainly. There aren't many riders who write and take photographs that well or there aren't many variations on that theme, either way, content quality could be the challenge. Sidetracked does it well but mainly through promoting adventure rather than any specific sport, they're kind of like a more subtle Redbull TV in print. Wider appeal and more content opportunity to draw from.
Maybe my expectations are too high. The team behind Cranked could do it well imo, or would have a far more valid opinion on how feasible it could be.
There aren’t many riders who write and take photographs that well
Very true. It's a real skill. I enjoy reading touring blogs but 99% are rubbish! Just go to crazy guy on a bike to see the noise signi ratio.
Well, I've got a name: how about 'Riding at the Limit'?
Limit in this case referring to ecological limits. And 'at' meaning as opposed to 'over' 🙂
Flixbus in France and elsewhere take bikes, German and Dutch low-speed trains take bikes. ALSA buses take bikes in Spain. In fact you can get most everywhere in Europe cheaply on public transport with your bike without flying.
You have spent 6k on a shiny new bike, why on earth would you not want to send the gnar on it. For many its not possible to do that locally, so a trip is the only way. Then kicks in the selfish human nature that is now the norm.
But that’s just daft isn’t it? I live just below the Kent North Downs so bought a short travel full sus which suits my local trails. Seems a bit weird to me to buy an enduro sled that I can only use to its full capabilities by driving 4 hours somewhere.
Local motion?
apart from the vans with giant plastic characters on top and PR people throwing useless tat at that crowds
Happens at Ft William DH WC every year. Shimano being the main culprit.
Limit in this case referring to ecological limits
Can the limit be defined?
Local motion
Like
Limit in this case referring to ecological limits
Can the limit be defined?
Not precisely I suppose. It would be easy enough to get a rough idea though.
Say, if you took, say, material consumption per person in the UK, or average carbon footprint, and looked how much these would need to come down to meet a sustainable global average, then just said, 'OK, try and get your mtb footprint to reduce by the same amount'.
I'd guess we're looking at about a 90% cut, so the aim could be travel 90% less by car to go biking, by 90% less new stuff, etc.
Interesting thread this. Mirrors my suspicions that most big brands have been going down a dodgy road with their evolutions. Glad that others have found sites like 'the Radavist' where they favour or seem to promote simpler more utilitarian bike brands. Builds that seem retro by todays standards but are in contrast sustainably tough, possibly assembled upcycling old parts (but equally suited to modern group sets) probably based around a frame made from steel, maybe even from a local builder. And the key thing is that the riders seem to be having a blast...
As many suspect the profit driven machinations of the big corporate brands churning new innovations in performance to tempt that major purchase are in contradiction to what is actually best suited to most riders usage and environmental sustainability. The 'tool' aspect of a simpler bike is a great characteristic where an appropriate design can enable a rider to have fun in their local riding, be something you can rely on for a big adventure and everything in-between and be a positive healthy thing for the individual and the planet. Feel myself getting fed up with the 'toylike' modern bikes that rely on X incompatible standards, expensive but not necesssarily robust components, things that need continual servicing to run, or bikes that indeed need plugging in to the grid to get anywhere - and in many cases the performance of these bikes is pushed to the point where it needs to go on the roof of your Audi to the artificial trail park to explore it's limits, and feels numb anywhere less.
Putting my TDF away earlier, I realised that I hadn't had a single puncture in 2 years of riding on all sorts of surfaces at all times of year. They're heavy old tyres and tubes, but no faff at all. Same chain, cassette, £50 S/H wheels that are absolutely bombproof etc etc. Left me feeling pretty chuffed. Could do with a clean though. 🙂
Would genuinely be up for a chat about a blog or something with anyone who's interested. Have a bit of experience in setting something up that went pretty well before, and looking for a new project...
I think the name needs to be something like 'A Ride in the Woods' or 'Ride the Neighbourhood', not anything too environmental, but something that promotes simpler times with a sustainability slant. And there's nothing wrong with highlighting gear from environmentally conscious and small indie brands, we've all got to buy new stuff sometimes.
Public transport, riding local, using durable/secondhand kit? Sounds like my approach, e.g. this spring - but I'm not under any illusion I'm saving the planet. A few hippies on cargo bikes won't achieve that, it'll take Draconian action by authoritarian regimes on a proxy-war footing. For every Greta Thunberg, there's a thousand myopic assholes wringing their hands over David Attenborough's plastic warnings while simultaneously clearing litter out of their cars onto the roadside. There's a fundamental disconnect here - exemplified by this thread, where we speculate how a non-essential leisure activity like mountain biking can be environmentally friendly.
I refer you to my post on page 2. 😉
FWIW I'd live to use the train more but bike spaces are so limited that it's mostly booked up. In fact I'd thought about riding back from Blair Atholl today but there's not one space on any train available.
There's so much good stuff coming out here, I'm finding it incredibly hard to take it all in, think about coherent responses, remember them and then try to formulate some response!
It's always frustrating to hear the "Chinese power-stations = what's the point?" line; I don't think that was the @legometeorolgy's angle, more a personal concern with their own impact. I've been trying to avoid the trite concept of mindfulness, but I think it fits.
We'll all NEED new stuff at some point, we'll all WANT new stuff and I'm sure we're all guilty of convincing ourselves that our old wheels are no longer as round as the new wheels.
Peer pressure is a hell of a thing too. Mostly I ride on my own, but on the odd occasion I hook up with local group rides, I feel incredibly self conscious turning up on an old rigid bike, in basically fairly normal clothing.
This leads me on to another problem, which is one of perception and hard cash. MTB'ing, as projected, is NOT a very accessible sport or hobby. Yes, you can have fun with an older cheap bike, but, if you're new to it, that's not what you'd be sold. The problem with this local/sustainable/durable side of MTB'ing or cycling in general, is that it's probably hopelessly unsexy. It's interesting that the people who do seem most in tune with this are the bikepacking and touring folk; why should that be? Is it because the focus tends to be on durability and actually a wider view of the world, not just a gravelled chute down a mountainside?
We're being sold on potential performance rather than real needs, in all areas of life.
I've been wondering for a while about the original singlespeed mtb movement and if the conditions that led people to do that then are similar now, or would that be co-opted and marketed back?
It's encouarging to see though, that there are a lot of people who do seem to feel the same way. I'd love to see this thread grow and not just wither away, but how to keep up momentum?
Another way of looking at it is looking to the outdoor industry to offset its impact.
If bike brands, clothing manufacturers got themselves to a point where they were all carbon neutral and consumers started to improve their attitude to consumerism by looking after their stuff more we could actually find ourselves in a carbon positive situation as an outdoor pursuit.
Then you can just look at the rest of your habits (cars, flights, meat, kids etc) and tackle them whilst you enjoy cycling guilt free!
the performance of these bikes is pushed to the point where it needs to go on the roof of your Audi to the artificial trail park to explore it’s limits, and feels numb anywhere less.
I agree but its also a different type of riding. wich is why many end up with 2 bikes.
I've noticed when looking at these American websites such as the Radavist that one of the most popular clothing brands you'll see is Patagonia, and I'm sure it's because as a brand their ethos has always been about ethical and traceable sourcing, sustainability, maximising usage and repairability. It's great example of what a brand should be and whats heartening is that their ubiquity seems to show that there's an appetite for that even if the initial outlay cost may be higher.
What's the bike equivalent of a brand such as Patagonia? (I'm sure there's other similar clothing brands now but can't think of many bike manufacturers that would fit the bill) There seems to be West Coast US scene of small scale steel frame brands supplying the gravel/ mtb hardtail market ie Crust/ All City Cycles- don't know anything about them but some look like they're local built rather than outsourced frame production. You would've thought that there's space for brands like that in the UK and could be the way forward if this type of production proves to be of lower impact. I fear the answer is that the average Californian may have more disposable $ to accommodate the inevitable higher cost in a quality locally made steel frame vs mass market import.
I'm sure there are actually quite a few brands or makers in this country already like that, but they're going to have a potentially small market share. This is where a website showcasing, collating and bringing this all to the fore is the way I see it happening.
Repair local,make local,buy local, ride local.
There is an association called EOCA that is for outdoor brands (some big ones signed up included Patagonia and North Face) that brings the companies together to work on environmental projects. It could, in future, also be some way of showcasing who does what.
No bike companies in it yet but suspect it could be more efficient if they joined EOCA rather than setting up a bike specific variant.
exemplified by this thread, where we speculate how a non-essential leisure activity like mountain biking can be environmentally friendly.
Or to look on the bright side which I rarely do on this topic - if we think about reducing the impact of something we relate to, that do for fun not need and are unlikely to stop, can it apply to other areas of life? I don't really compartmentalise life much. An attitude applied in one area tends to affect others.
There seems to be West Coast US scene of small scale steel frame brands supplying the gravel/ mtb hardtail market ie Crust/ All City Cycles- don’t know anything about them but some look like they’re local built rather than outsourced frame production.
Taiwan made and shipped around the world. All-City is part of QBP, Salsa and Surly etc.
Thanks Jameso- that blows my illusions. What would be great would be to see a brand that is transparent about it's sourcing of materials, it's production facilities and ultimately the carbon footprint of it's products - It's not something I've seen out there often and could even be something that's marketed as a positive thing. Or would we all be too horrified at the harsh reality of global economics? I remember a decade ago I bought an Ellsworth over another brand having been impressed by their attempts at the time towards a carbon neutral in-house factory, possibly with renewable power sources (was that real or just marketing?...long gone now i assume)- I'm glad I did, it was a great bike, and realise this positions me as 'not normal'.....but it shows it can influence buying decisions.
and realise this positions me as ‘not normal’…..
No less normal than buying a bike because a particular pro won a race series on it, or you thought it looked good? Any reason is a fair reason really.
Here y'go, great podcast - interesting ideas on bike leasing and overcoming the second hand stigma. Still reckon we're f@c£ed, mind, but it's nice that people like Isla Rowntree are trying to make a difference.
Leasing always seems to end up that the user get the raw deal in the end with so many extra charges or get outs by the leasing company that I can't see leasing bikes being the exception to the rule.
This leads me on to another problem, which is one of perception and hard cash. MTB’ing, as projected, is NOT a very accessible sport or hobby. Yes, you can have fun with an older cheap bike, but, if you’re new to it, that’s not what you’d be sold. The problem with this local/sustainable/durable side of MTB’ing or cycling in general, is that it’s probably hopelessly unsexy. It’s interesting that the people who do seem most in tune with this are the bikepacking and touring folk; why should that be? Is it because the focus tends to be on durability and actually a wider view of the world, not just a gravelled chute down a mountainside?
Au contraire. Bikepacking has taken off in a big way. What was a niche, with niche low volume suppliers, has become big business and the market is flooded with cheap, rip-off kit the same as any other. What's more there are an increasing number of bikepacking events, where folk are encouraged to travel across the country, or to another country, to participate and compete. And where there is competition, there is a demand for lighter, probably less durable equipment. Loads of folk (many on this forum) will have fully equipped themselves with bags, tents, stoves, luggage etc and many will have used them once or twice, some not at all - all based on some marketing dream of cosy evenings round a camp fire.
"No less normal than buying a bike because a particular pro won a race series on it, or you thought it looked good? Any reason is a fair reason really."
More of a knowing nod to the rep of Tony E.... But actually if brands displayed their eco credentials then it could become a 'primary' reason to favour that brand, for some people it could be as important as looks or other marketing. Patagonia are a prime example where all of their efforts are absolutely front and centre on their webpage...I like this a lot. If outdoor brands can operate like this and prosper then seeing as the bike industry has an equal end usage out there in the environment, it would be great to see more efforts from the bike brands. I see on that list of EOCA brands that many large outdoor brands are signed up, but no bike brands other than those with dual associations...Gore, Vaude, Thule are on there.....
That's a good shout and it would certainly help in raising consumer awareness, along with having a positive impact...
However, to really make a change towards sustainability, we have to confront the elephant in the room; the military industrial aviation complex...
The U.S. military’s greenhouse gas emissions are higher than most countries
Whilst I certainly condone sustainable practices, reduction in consumerism, responsible vehicle use and avoiding flying, even in the best case scenario the overall impact of the mtb industry casting it's gaze inward and focusing only on it's own activity would be relatively minimal; to really make a change, activism on the real sources of pollution (who are also responsible for much of the brainwashing of the planet crushing plunder led consumer dream) is essential.
Wanna know why airline owner Richard Branson funded a politically motivated benefit concert in Venezuela?
Oil...
The whole thing's just really ****ing depressing if you think about it too much. For every one person doing as much as they can, there's a thousand who don't GAF. New plastic bike? Aye. Drive (or fly!) to ride? Aye. A million electric gears with a chain three atoms wide that'll need to be replaced in a month's time? Yep, sign me up cos it'll look mint on instagram. And that's just the MTBers.
Me and my OH do as much as we can; no flying, no farmed meat, minimal dairy, no kids, car use down to a few times a month and I look out of the window at the people on our estate and I find myself thinking, 'why bother?' Energy drinks cans just chucked away, the odd fast food wrapper.They don't GAF. I want to do more, to try and get people to listen but I don't know how.
A million electric gears with a chain three atoms wide that’ll need to be replaced in a month’s time?
FWIW my experience from maintaining a fleet of hire bikes for a few years is that 9/10/11 speed kit has lasted much better than 8 speed. Could just be that only crappy 8 speed is still available of course....
Aye Kayla, am much the same as you. Consciousness does seem to be changing slowly, particularly in the younger generation, they're probably our only hope - but agree it will probably take heavy government legislation to affect the behaviour of a worrying irresponsible majority who just don't GAF ...and that's just not going to happen from our main political parties in fear of losing voters.
I just listened to that Isla Rowntree interview.
That was a really interesting and quite wide-ranging discussion.
She seems like an extremely astute business person as well as a lover of bikes, and it's an interesting discussion of balancing social responsibility/morality/environmental considerations with commercial concerns, consumerism and the bicycle as a consumer product, linear product life cycle and circular life cycle.
She has a brilliant philosophy and understanding of modern consumer culture and where it might be headed. She even won me round to the idea of a rented kids bikes
I really liked pretty much everything she has to say.
That interview has the kernel of several workable solutions to this threads specific topic... Could the bike rental thing work for other types of bike?
Islabike also sounds like a great company to work for...
As it was mentioned that it's ten years since 'The Age of Stupid' previously...an interesting 11 minute listen...and a Postlethwaite.
No worries, there's plenty of time, dunno what all those hippies are fussing about...
https://twitter.com/i/status/1155830186144862208
I'm not riding a rigid singlespeed
No one else is sharing my bikes
I wont stop buying shiny stuff
I wont stop driving to cool riding locations
I am offsetting all of this by not self-replicating
As for my carbon generating hobbies....well I didn't ask to be born did I
As birth rate falls, its actually people living longer that fill the world up. Yet, I never hear the people talking about population control offering to do something about it themselves.
I’m not riding a rigid singlespeed
No one else is sharing my bikes
I wont stop buying shiny stuff
I wont stop driving to cool riding locations
Realistically speaking, this is the most likely outcome for the vast majority of riders...
Even if these schemes were to have a significant uptake, the unfortunate fact is that it'd have very little impact on global climate change.
However, it's not all doom and gloom; Ethiopia have the right idea:
Ethiopia plants more than 350 million trees in 12 hours
Being as trees and plants breathe in nasty 'boil your grandchildren alive' carbon dioxide and breathe out 'soothing tranquility that chills the sun the **** out' oxygen, it can only be a good thing.
Couple that with the shade provided by trees and it's clear that whomsoever designed the planet in the 1st place had a pretty good handle on the concepts of maintaining life and/or ecological balance.
Now, whether DEFRA are gonna read this post and immediately scurry out throwing out subsidies to reclaim all the land that's been deforested over the centuries remains to be seen, but damn, it's better than boiling your grandchildren, even if it did mean market forces caused the price of meat to rocket, making it less taken for granted by the all consuming masses.
That said, careful placement of said trees allowing light to pass through to the forest floor would still allow photosynthesis and thus grazing...
-I don't have kids
-I have 2 (old secondhand) cars but did a total of 1000 miles between the pair of them last year
-I fly once a year, and always take the train on business travel despite the plane being half as long
-I'm a vegetarian
- I don't visit trail centres
So with all that in mind I'm more than happy to keep do my part in destroying the environment with a new bike every 18 months
This guy's potentially setting a good example, not sure what his travel habits are though
https://bikepacking.com/bikes/mathias-dammers-surly-krampus/