[Closed] Mountain biking and climate change: how to retain the most fun

I agree with your points about the problems to an extent but not the solutions.

Cycling as a hobby can be separated from cycling as a part of daily life. There may be some overlap between the groups but there are people who ride a bike to work etc and people who go mountain biking. Just like there are fishermen on trawlers and jet skiers. The two groups have not much in common and the number of mountainbikers who commute is probably still only a very small percentage, anecdotally maybe 10%, probably less? And likewise for most commuters it's either a choice or forced on them but its not something theyd do in their spare time.

So. Ignore any propaganda about moubtainbiking being good for the environment. Its only good if you compare it to something like motorsport. But there's a lot that you can do to minimise the impact it has.

1) don't buy shiny stuff every week. MTB has been my hobby for the best part of 20 years. I long ago stepped off the consumerist treadmill the magazine's pedal at us. Simple bikes and ride them into the ground. Buy second-hand. Anything that avoids a new part being made for no real reason. Does a lump of aluminium need shipping round the world several times just so you can have a matching stem that's 5mm shorter? People get obsessed with the latest stuff, when in reality their "it's so much more capable than bikes of 5 years ago" dandyhorse is in reality probably only a single figure percentage faster than a rigid singlespeed.

2) ride local. Sure the chilterns look less cool on Instagram than shots of lake district sunsets. But I can ride them from my door. With an hour's bimble either side I can get my trail center fix at swinley too.

3) if you do go away, cram as many people in the car as possible. And there's no such thing as a low cost flight for the environment. Flying to the Alps might be possible for less than the price of an enduro race entry, but that doesn't make it right.

Can see how a subscription model would work, hope don't for kids bikes. It would make maintenance and repair costs the manufacturers problem but everyone would still want to hire the latest model so might actually result in more "obsolete" bikes.

Buy the bike that is the best for riding from your front door. Yes you may miss some great trails that are a drive or flight away, like you miss having that bigger TV, nicer car, all those other aspirational things that cause dissatisfaction as much as enjoyment.

MTB is a just another consumer activity. Cycling for transport reduces carbon footprint and doesn't need new shiny stuff all the time. Riding locally on a simple bike and ignoring most of the new stuff seems like a good middle ground for MTB, doesn't mean you can't travel to ride sometimes either.

We are all hypocrites when it comes to climate change. Rich enough to pay for the problem to be ignored or sent to a third world country.

Not enough people will voluntarily make a change in their lifestyles for it to affect the climate. We need the governments world wide to enforce the change. But that wont happen because no one will vote for it and the economy wont work without oil / plastic etc.

So, either enjoy your riding while you still can, or start to reduce the population to a level the panet can put up with.

“We are all hypocrites when it comes to climate change. Rich enough to pay for the problem to be ignored or sent to a third world country.”

Bang on the money. Same goes for other ills such as plastic use.

Humans are bad for the environment full stop. Some worse than others. Some things get media coverage and make money under the pretence of being good for the environment but in reality aren’t. E.g. reduction in plastic use is likely to be worse for climate change.

Close all the trail centres until we've worked out a carbon neutral way of getting to them. Trail centres have made mountain biking the new golf for the middle class.

Instead of riding at a trail centre ride from your own front door, if the bike is appropriate for your doorstep riding it will still be fine. I'm still holding out on getting a warranty claim on my 20yr old Marin FS bike if it ever cracks.

It's not mountain biking that's the problem, it's consumerism. You don't need the newest shiniest kit to ride a bike.

Buy a bike and some kit, and then ride it into the ground. Don't drive to ride. No suspension. Vegan fuel.

miketually

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It’s not mountain biking that’s the problem, it’s consumerism.

Actually, it's humans.

Until we have an adult conversation about population growth, any attempts to mitigate individual anthropomorphic environmental impact will, at best, only be half a solution. We are the problem, we are breeding beyond the planet's capacity to accommodate us.

Other than that, enjoy your day. 😀

Maybe those people who string wires across MTB trails are on to something?

Population growth is levelling off - increased urbanisation naturally reduces birth rates, as does increased education of women.

I know I could be more eco-friendly if I'd bought a rigid singlespeed and not changed bikes every few years in the hunt for... ...something! But 99% of my riding is from my door (and has been throughout my MTBing life) and I commute by bike as well as mountain biking - both on my MTB.

The current main MTB is an electrified one so less eco friendly than a normal one - or is it? What's the impact of charging a battery vs eating even more food? Obviously the motor and battery etc had to be made so that's worse but I don't know about the long term. The other MTB is also the bike my wife occasionally rides. I can't cope with having more than two, it confuses me!

I think consumerism is the big problem. End the endless cycle of pointless upgrades. Buy quality products which have been ethically produced and designed to last a long time - and then keep them for a long time!

It can accommodate us but not if we live the way we do.

Unless there's a major shift at international policy level, any individual actions among us will count for nothing.

What do people think?

Have you got kids? If not, rejoice in the fact that you're doing the most environmentally friendly thing possible by not breeding more consumers.

Purchasing for longevity seems to be harder than it should be.steel chainrings go on forever, but it seems hard to find cassettes with low gears made a steel.

Suspension seems to be another area that should be made simpler, more reliable and easy to service.

Riding locally is something that gets overlooked. Rather than sitting in a car for 2 hours each way, spend that time digging locally.

I've wondered if an open source mountain bike could ever work. Being able to 3d print parts and make them interchangeable.

The irony of riding for me is that while cycling is considered this sustainable thing that’ll (help) save the planet, it’s the source of most of my consumerism, and a chunk of my carbon footprint. (The longest car journey I’ve taken in the last few years has been to ride in the Alps for example. And I eat more than most people I know, precisely as I spin my legs around for hours so often.)

I don't fool myself that my cycling is in any way doing good or even less harm to the planet. Perhaps the one and only saving grace being that keeping me sort of fit into my 40s means I walk whilst most of my neighbours drive, it's a mile at most. Of course the 'downside' of that is that'll I'll likely live longer.

I do drive to TCs for 80% of my riding, my local riding doesn't lead anywhere other than home again so it's only travelling for the fun of it. I buy a new bike every 3 to 4 years. Consumables are made globally, sometimes out of oil products and shipped to me.

I still maintain though that if we wanted to reduce pollution from transport cycling really helps, but the roads are still crammed with people on every kind of transport all trying to get to the same place at the same time, why? The Internet and faxes killed Concorde and business travel has fallen hugely in recent years, in every industry I've worked in the days of tearing around the place in your company car have gone, it's more e-mail, phone, skype now, it just makes sense.

Even if 10% of office workers were allowed to work from home it would make a huge difference, I know it's not always practical and not everyone has room for a home office - but think, if you didn't have to live within commuting distance of where you work, I'm sure you could afford to live somewhere bigger, especially if you didn't have the transport costs?

cycling from home and not replacing stuff till its broken beyond repair is the way to go to reduce your footprint. Trains to get to other places

I agree with your points about the problems to an extent but not the solutions.

Didn't think I'd offered any TBH! I think your answers are spot on.

Buy the bike that is the best for riding from your front door.

I like this very much, too.

Otherwise, I feel we're veering into just pointing the finger at population. OK, yes it's an issue, there's loads of us humans around. But that's not going to change anytime soon and to be frank I find it a tiring and distracting question.

What I really want to know is, how could the whole mountain biking market culture be change so the incentives point towards more longevity, local riding, and simpler tech if and when it's more sustainable?

A simple one: no one needs 12 speed. If all that research and development had gone into 9 or 10 speed drive chains, then we may have chains and cassette that lasted twice as long. And quicklinks that weren't only good for one ****ing use.

OK, and what if purpose-built mtb trails were made from the edge or urban area's out to local national parks or forests, instead of requiring a long drive?

Edit: another thing, trains really, really need to have more bike capacity. Getting to the Dales for me isn't too bad, but if I want to go for more than a single friend, it's a gamble for space. And the idea of getting on a train after a muddy ride isn't good, so I only catch a train to bike if it's dry, or I'm going to cycle all the way back home.

But what if, as well as trains having more bike capacity, train stations near good riding had:
1) lockers where you could leave a set of clean clothes to get into before the return journey
2) a simple bike wash

That would work brilliantly for me, but perhaps my situation is rare

“We are all hypocrites when it comes to climate change. Rich enough to pay for the problem to be ignored or sent to a third world country.”

There's degrees of hypocrisy though, isn't there?

I've driven to one cycling event this year (well, got a lift with a friend), and do all the rest of my riding from my door. I live where I do in no small part to facilitate that.

All my bikes are second hand. I drive my car so infrequently it regularly needs a push start because the battery has gone flat. I literally haven't used a car to get to work in over 20 years (the last time was when my mum used to give me a lift to a pub I worked at age 17). I've been abroad 3 times in the past 6 years.

My phone is second hand, my TV is second hand, my laptop is second hand etc.

But, I do own a car, I eat meat, I have been on flights, I have my fair share of consumer tat. Of course there are plenty of people who have a much lower environemntal impact than I do - either out of necessity or by choice.

I'm not trying to make some perverse boast with the list above, I guess I'm just saying that, if you care, you should do what you can.

Unless there’s a major shift at international policy level, any individual actions among us will count for nothing.

I think that is a defeatist and unhelpful attitude. If we all carry on happily raping the environment as we are doing, there'll be no incentive for any shifts in policy at national/international levels. At the end of the day, policymakers all want to win votes by doing what will be popular with the public.

I don't agree that population growth is an inherent problem, it seems like developed countries are reaching a point where net growth is zero with two kids being the norm. So population growth is only ever a transition where countries go from big families to small over a few generations. Undoubtedly the population will hit 10billion+ but it won't keep growing.

It's only a problem if those 10bilion expect to be able to squander their carbon footprint like Western countries did and they won't have to (or be able to even). Renewable power is cheaper, transport is going electric etc. Those are changes made at a national level and don't nessecerily impact on people's lifestyles.

And as for lifestyles, it's often touted that the world is doomed because 10billion people can't live like the 1 billion in Europe and the USA and be sustainable. And those provide the model to which others aspire. But look at China, bike sharing schemes are massive. Yes they resulted in hundreds of thousands of scrapped bikes but on the flip side it seems likely that cities the size of Beijing may end up with cycle statistics to rival Amsterdam if the trend of reversing car use continues.

While I know that buying locally isn't always possible, shopping at your LBS will help reduce the amount of packages arriving while simultaneously helping the local economy. Another thing to help this is to buy better and less often, more expensive products will likely last longer and perform better.

I am fortunate enough to be able to commute to work by bike which allows me to use my old "good kit" for riding to work, maximising it's lifetime.
Making your own sports drinks and bars will help reduce the single use plastic there (I admit I haven't actually got around to doing this).

For maintenance I mostly use Green Oil products, I find they work great and everything down to the packaging has been thought about to make as little environmental impact.

I like the idea of loaning and/or hiring on a per use basis. Will remove the need to have multiple bikes all for slightly different applications.

I do try and ride locally where possible or get public transport to places I want to get to but that isn't always possible, especially if I'm racing and I need to get there early and I don't want to race around with everything in my pockets.

Population growth is levelling off – increased urbanisation naturally reduces birth rates, as does increased education of women.

Yes in western countries population is in steep decline, at 1.5 fertility population could drop to nearly 10% current levels in 4 generations.

Africa on the other hand currently roughly the same population size is predicted to grow nearly 10 times to 10 billion.

Personal carbon budget that is used for anything (including consuming cycling stuff or getting to cycling venues)

Everyone gets a set amount and if you go over your allocated budget you can buy more credit (obvs at a cost) or incur much higher costs

Hows that?

It's all one step forward two steps back for me.

I ride two old MTBs. A rigid inbred for local and a 26" full sus giant raign for going gnar!

But.... there is not any riding from the door for me, (I am sure someone will tell me there is but railway tracks, flat routes etc are of zero interest). Fun for touring but not mtbing. 30 -50 min drive to perbecks is the closest local riding. The gnar is 2.5hr to Wales. I don't ride MTB very often due to the time it takes and the cost (2-3 trips a year), mainly ride BMX as I can do that locally but still not from the door, still anything from 10-30 min drive for my local spots.

So the only sustainable answer for me is to quit riding but it's my only hobby and source of fun.

I don't have a long commute and cycle sometimes but have to work away across Europe at least once a month but I have only flown for not for work 6 trips in 20 years, 4 to visit in-laws.

I don't think you can make a hobby such as mtbing environmentally friendly you can only reduce its impact.

Reduced consumerism and riding locally are the big ones but still limited without expecting people to quit.

Personal carbon budget that is used for anything

I have hear this one suggested before. I quite like it. The problem could be in the costing. E.g. someone who can buy a new efficient car every two years uses less of their budget driving the same miles as someone who dives a 10 year old car. It only works if all your consumption is taken into account.

Personal carbon budget that is used for anything (including consuming cycling stuff or getting to cycling venues)

Everyone gets a set amount and if you go over your allocated budget you can buy more credit (obvs at a cost) or incur much higher costs

Hows that?

Fine by me. What do you think mtb would then look like?

So the only sustainable answer for me is to quit riding but it’s my only hobby and source of fun.

Could you train it to any good mtb spots if the trains weren't so s**t and there were facilities at the other end? (lockers, perhaps a shower, etc.)

This is the question I'm getting at: how to retain the most fun, particularly in situations like yours it seems, if massive reductions in resource use are needed.

Could you train it to any good mtb spots if the trains weren’t so s**t and there were facilities at the other end? (lockers, perhaps a shower, etc.)

Not really. I am in a beeching cuts railway black hole. I could cycle to a train station in about an hour or so but I am on a railway dead end. So for instance getting to Wales would take 4.5hrs excluding cycling to and from train station at either end Vs 2.5 -3hr driving. So what was a long day trip becomes minimum of one night away and possibly 2 nights away depending on train times. Similarly for the "local" (that's not that local) would be 1 or so to the train station then 20 min on train then an hour to get to a good starting point so what was a afternoon trip now takes all day.

P.s. I would say my personal carbon foot print while not excellent is better than most but my work carbon footprint is very bad. Not a lot I can do about the work one though it's not meeting and sales I travel for its boots on the ground stuff.

I guess the foundation to the system would be to get the accounting part right with some form of carbon assessment carried out for products on the market

My guess is that 75% of personal carbon emissions come from relatively few activities such as transport (non cycling), energy (heat and power) and food.

Perhaps any new system could first focus on these and then be rolled out progressively to other areas of consumption (clothing, consumables, bikes etc)

MTB (full bikes, components and consumables) could then be added.

but given the savings of not having to replace all that metal, all those bearings, etc.,

I stopped single speeding to work as I was breaking many big lumps of metal that don't wear out.

I think the way I'd work it would be well stocked council run workshops, so everyone who wants to work on their own bike doesn't need their own copy of every tool that they'll use once. Could have some pro mechanics for the "oops this used to work now it's worse" moments and those not interested in sorting their own bikes.

Also I'd work massively less and cycle slowly to anywhere I wanted to ride. Might need some kind of wheel or tyre hire programme if I was going to ride to uplift days (er, uplift buses count as public transport right?) etc. A network of pleasant, car free, well maintained routes would be necessary and could be paid for by a pay-per-shock Boris Johnson televised electric shock service. To maximize revenue and fairness, I would allow a bidding system for him or his supporters to pay to avoid a shock, increasing the cost of shocking him at the same time.

@thebrick

I guess that everyone’s employer would also need to be included in the scheme and live within their budget or buy more credit (in a market place) or pay for some kind of offset

I think that the technology would exist to do all of this running on a digital app on your smart phone

Woody

So the only sustainable answer for me is to quit riding but it’s my only hobby and source of fun.

Not having a go personally, but you do perfectly typify the problem.

Lots of flights
Lots of driving
And ending on "but what can I do?".

Fly less.
Drive less (you said it yourself, 10-30minute drive, that's what 10-60min on a bike?).

People need to get a grip and realise that they are not all special unique cases, they need to get on with it.

A simple one: no one needs 12 speed. If all that research and development had gone into 9 or 10 speed drive chains, then we may have chains and cassette that lasted twice as long. And quicklinks that weren’t only good for one ****ing use.

You can still get 8 speed groupsets and you don't have to use quicklinks.

Personal carbon budget that is used for anything (including consuming cycling stuff or getting to cycling venues)

Everyone gets a set amount and if you go over your allocated budget you can buy more credit (obvs at a cost) or incur much higher costs

Hows that?

I like the idea on a fundamental basis, but it'll never work with the way our Governments work.

Like we have now, the big car companies will lobby the hell out of the EU/UK to ensure that buying news cars to replace old less polluting ones will seem anything but the madness it is. We'll also shift the carbon to the most tax efficient part of the chain possible. Pay carbon tax on a car? Nah, I'll buy a Tesla and let them them mine for the batteries and the energy companies create the power and transport it to me.

Of course you'll end up with some crass teenage **** on Insta burning CFCs or whatever to show how rich they are.

I suppose if they enforce it properly and use the revenue to try to reverse it it would work, I just don't have much faith in people or government at the moment.

You know what? The best thing for us now is a flu epidemic. I'll roll the dice on that.

It's a tricky one for sure... I was recently involved in building a new blue trail at a well known trail centre and the amount of resources that go into it are quite an eye opener, with vast amounts of plant used to dig and surface the trail, not to mention the quarrying operation that delivers the surfacing.

By contrast, we did some improvement works on an existing trail and I chose to hand dig, partly due to access problems for the excavator; apparently my choice caused a degree of controversy, since allegedly hand digging is more costly per metre; whether that is in fact the case is debatable, given the maintenance and consumables required by excavators, from new tracks, to buckets written off by stumps, to about 40 litres of diesel a day each. That said, there's no doubt you can achieve features with machine built trails that you'd struggle to manage by hand.

However, putting it in perspective, I'd be surprised if the multiple months it took to build the trail would consume anything like 1 day of resources of the combined armed forces of the UK;

As an example, even in peacetime, the US military is the world's number 1 single consumer of fossil fuels (and #1 polluter); no big surprise I suppose, given those same resources are the main reason for much of the world's conflict.

In a round about way, that brings us back to driving to go riding; something that could no doubt be improved upon; in many respects, that's the beauty of electric cars; whilst by no means perfect, the potential exists to move away from fossil fuels, with renewable energy sources such as wind, solar and tidal; though all have their detractors, one has to wonder how much of this is due to vested interests given the subsidies afforded to far less clean forms of energy.

Bringing it back to the bikes themselves, an interesting case study would be to quantify how much additional material has been used as a result of the shift in wheel sizes; though individually it's pretty insignificant, on a mass production level, the difference between 26 and 27.5 is going to mean more material used; from tyres rims and spokes, to rear stays, forks, boost hubs and cranks etc etc.

The personal carbon budget/allowance would need to be run by an independent regulatory body accountable to Ministers and Parliament - loads of models for this that seems to work well enough

I agree you wouldn’t want govt to be directly responsible.

I think there isn't the slightest faint chance that humankind can collectively put aside individual self-interests and work together to a sustainable existence. Just not a chance.

So as much as it's a fatalistic thing to say, I wouldn't worry too much. The planet will call time on us when it needs to that's certain.

😐

Fly less.

I think there need to be a distinction from flying for work Vs flying for personal flight. My personal flight are pretty low. Once every 3+ years on average and I have none planned. Work ones are not avoidable the work need people there. They are not work trips for meetings.

Drive less (you said it yourself, 10-30minute drive, that’s what 10-60min on a bike?).

The 10- 30 min was BMX so 30 min to > 60 min ride. Not the bike for journeys. Technically possible when dry but not practical.

Or the other 30 min was to the Purbecks under ideal driving so closer to 1.5 -2hr riding to get it the start of a MTB ride.

So without pretty much giving an entire day to a short trip it becomes very impractical.

My other driving is pretty low ~ 6000 pa and the number of MTB trips I take a year is ~3 so low. I am not saying that there is not more I could do but as far a mtbing goes short of moving house to somewhere closer to trails it is very limited. Moving would actually results in me increasing the number of miles driven dramatically due to being further from family and possibly work!

People need to get a grip and realise that they are not all special unique cases, they need to get on with it.

Very much this.
Everyone can make excuses as to why they can't change but we all can. We often just chose not to as it's difficult or inconvenient.

I guess that everyone’s employer would also need to be included in the scheme and live within their budget or buy more credit (in a market place) or pay for some kind of offset

I think that the technology would exist to do all of this running on a digital app on your smart phone

Yeah business / employers would have to be included for sure. The tough one though is avoiding offshoring of polluting business (as has already happened) to areas with less regulation. You loose revenue and jobs from the business and the carbt foot print doesn't improve its just moved by accountants!

I think a lot more people could ride more locally, more regularly, than do so currently.

I do one, maybe two, trips per year in the car specifically to ride (eg Dirty Reiver, Lakes MTB weekend with mates). Usually car share.

I am lucky enough to live somewhere (north Leeds) with tons of options from the front door, from 1-2 hour quick blasts to all day epics in the Dales. Covers most types of riding, road, gravel, rigid SS, XC, downhill tech etc. Nearly all my riding is, therefore, local, from the commute-plus-a-bit-of-cheeky-fun to all day / weekend rides. Yes, the short 1-2 hours loops are getting a little bit same-ey, but still lots of variety. I'm in the middle of planning an overnight bivvy ride, total loop 100km, and overwhelmed by all the different trail options that I've never ridden before, which are probably under 40km 'as the crow flies' from my home address. The same is true west, east and south of Leeds.

I get that there are areas of the country where the options are way more limited, and so there is little option but to travel by car/public transport more regularly. But there must be thousands of MTBers that live all over the country who could probably ride quite happily more locally, but instead regularly get in the car to somewhere more gnarr / trail-centrey.

I am lucky enough to live somewhere (north Leeds) with tons of options from the front door, from 1-2 hour quick blasts to all day epics in the Dales.

I'm North West Leeds too. I'm starting to realise how lucky we are. If you want proper gnar, perhaps not, but the XC is brilliant (in summer) and so damn convenient. I've worked out I can do about a 50km loop from my doorstep without doing any significant miles on the road, and midweek I barely see anyone on the trails.

I’m North West Leeds too. I’m starting to realise how lucky we are. If you want proper gnar, perhaps not, but the XC is brilliant (in summer) and so damn convenient. I’ve worked out I can do about a 50km loop from my doorstep without doing any significant miles on the road, and midweek I barely see anyone on the trails.

There are loads of 30-50k MTB loops from the door ... We should meet up and share routes.

There's better gnarr too recently. Loads of made stuff on the Chevin and Ilkley Moor that I haven't even started to check out. Stainburn is not so very far away either (but a drag on roads on the MTB to get there). Other fun stuff in Calverley woods and Esholt that I know exists but haven't properly checked out. Baildon Moor & Shipley Glen are easily worked into a 3-5 hour loop.

What do people think?

Two things:

1. Buy less stuff. Forget weighing up different environmental costs for different products, it's more sustainable not to buy them in the first place. You don't need multiple bikes. Or new forks. Mostly. Don't buy them

2. Ride your local trails, or at least only travel if you're away for a week or more.

For that to work, you have to maybe change how you think of 'fun'. Fun doesn't have to be new stuff. Or new places. It can be just enjoying riding what you have and riding it better. And don't fly, big carbon debt.

You don't have to ride new places, you can enjoy your local trails, ride them better, appreciate the way they change with weather and light and direction. Or you can just swallow the whole industry / STW thing that 'fun' is more travel, going faster, owning more bikes and more stuff. Where does that end?

Maintain what you have and buy durable stuff to start with. And don't replace when you don't need to, even if, oh, adjusting an SPD pedal bearing is a hassle and a new pedal is quite cheap. Just get your spanners out.

And if your local trails are rubbish? Move somewhere better.

There are loads of 30-50k MTB loops from the door … We should meet up and share routes.

Yes please.

And if your local trails are rubbish? Move somewhere better.

Perhaps this is where gravel bikes become a good thing, from a sustainability perspective. For many people they may be the only thing that makes local trails really fun.

And when they make 'road fat' bikes with 26 wheels and 60mm tyres, everyone can get their old kit out instead of buying knew crap*

*ah, except 18mm wide rims don't work anymore...

OP I can't help thinking that you are perhaps a perfect individual case study for your own work.

If anyone can calculate the environmental impact of their hobby then it's you, So do it. Figure out what your MTB related activities and purchases have done to the environment over the last year and look for opportunities to reduce that over the next twelve months and then write it up and publish it!

You seem to be looking for "total solutions", like sacking the whole thing off, where what can at least kick start some wider change is quantifying the current situation and then looking for an improvement of at least, I dunno 50%?

I'm sure I'm as much of an environmental disaster as the next bicycle enthusiast. But I will admit to near total ignorance when it comes to the details and the scale of impact for every one of my own activities/purchases.

If your work has prompted you to examine your hobby, use that as an opportunity to learn something you can then apply to your work and through that hopefully teach others.

Not enough people will voluntarily make a change in their lifestyles for it to affect the climate. We need the governments world wide to enforce the change.

Agree on the hypocrisy point, though if we need to be forced to change we're properly screwed. Because some will be forced, others (inc profitable but businesses) are able to skip the rules.

Since doing a lot more road riding its made me realise how wasteful MTB can be, and how much time I spent travelling to/from riding. Despite living on the edge of the peak...

I now do

Far more riding from home (probably 99% of rides)
Far less maintenance and have less inclination to upgrade
Far less replacement of worn out bits
Much less mileage in my van
Far more mileage on my legs!

Not suggesting everyone takes up road cycling, but it was an eye opener for me (and I'm enjoying it just at much shhhhhhhhh....)

OP I can’t help thinking that you are perhaps a perfect individual case study for your own work.

If anyone can calculate the environmental impact of their hobby then it’s you, So do it. Figure out what your MTB related activities and purchases have done to the environment over the last year and look for opportunities to reduce that over the next twelve months and then write it up and publish it!

You seem to be looking for “total solutions”, like sacking the whole thing off, where what can at least kick start some wider change is quantifying the current situation and then looking for an improvement of at least, I dunno 50%?

That's a good point, I'm certainly not in a bad position to be able to do some sort of lifecycle analysis of mtb, with a few different scenarios, to find out, say, how an average mtb rider's impact is split between travel, new kit, and maintenance.

A study like that'd give some interesting answers, but their general thread is obvious: ride local, buy durable and simple stuff, don't get new stuff every time something novel comes along just because its novel.

Basically what a lot of people have said above -- so obviously quite a people already make their mtb follow broadly those principles. I don't want to blow my own horn, but I'm just about one of them. I very, very rarely drive to trails nowadays (probably once a month), ride from the doorstep 3 or 4 times a week and catch a train for a ride a couple of times a month. Aside from wear and tear parts, 95% of what I buy is second hand.

But I still have a car, I buy more new stuff than I'd like, and when I was with my ex I drove to ride a lot more, so my lack of driving nowadays is at best only half down to my own 'virtuous' nature, i.e. not much to be proud of. I could do a fair bit more.

So to me, the question is: what broader changes in cycling culture, business models, trail design, etc. could make lower impact riding more appealable?

I don't think it's the sort of thing that can be done one individual at a time.

Cut back on trips with bike in car, stop going on flights, have less children and buy second hand more. Plant some trees to offset the damage done, stop worrying so much and enjoy your life sensibly. Doing anything drastic on an individual level is too little too late. At this point I think such action would only be to ease your own conscience unfortunately.

So to me, the question is: what broader changes in cycling culture, business models, trail design, etc. could make lower impact riding more appealable?

Someone earlier posted about the environmental impact of building trails (is at trail centres). So you have the quarrying of stone, transport of stone (no idea whether stone is sourced locally at trail centres, but you'd imagine that in Wales, Lakes etc, it would/should be), the heavy machinery to build and maintain the trails. When you add in the fact that most trail centres are in fairly remote areas and not close to good public transport hubs, the overall carbon footprint is probably quite large.

Presumably greener methods of construction could be implemented? Trees planted to offset the carbon used?

New trail centres could be located closer to / in urban areas ... Leeds bike park is a good example ... But that has limitations too as a 6km loop and a jump line is going to get boring quickly compared to several 10/20/30km loops at a Forestry Commission trail centre.

So it's partly about a public transport option. But it's also about facilities when you're there. If you're travelling several hours to Wales, Lakes, Scotland etc, and certainly if you're staying over, it's difficult without a car ... You need changes of kit, maybe camping and cooking gear, non-riding wear, tools and spares etc. So to make travelling by public transport to trail centres viable, there needs to be better facilities on site / close by ... cheap accommodation, bike storage, ready set-up campsites, repair workshops, places to eat, and transport laid on from the nearest station.

It's a lot of infrastructure change for both the provider and the punter ... and that's without even starting to think about the public transport infrastructure, capacity on trains etc etc.

Since doing a lot more road riding its made me realise how wasteful MTB can be, and how much time I spent travelling to/from riding. Despite living on the edge of the peak…

I now do

Far more riding from home (probably 99% of rides)
Far less maintenance and have less inclination to upgrade
Far less replacement of worn out bits
Much less mileage in my van
Far more mileage on my legs!

Not suggesting everyone takes up road cycling, but it was an eye opener for me (and I’m enjoying it just at much shhhhhhhhh….)

Quite. Being able to go mountain biking isn't some human right, the way some folk on here seem to suggest. If you live somewhere that mountain biking isn't environmentally sustainable, and this concerns you, then either move, or find a different hobby.

That doesn't seem like the most constructive approach to a sport we all enjoy and which encourages healthy lifestyles and appreciation of the beauty of nature, which in turn is likely to lead to more people with an active interest in preserving the environment.

Despite my honest appraisal of the machinery used to build mountain bike trails, think for a moment how this compares to the construction and maintenance of the road network...

On a larger scale, how does 1 day of the global impact of MTBing compare to:

1 day of traffic on the M25

or

1 day of the combined impact of the City of London and Canary Wharf, from construction of the buildings, to transport and housing, feeding and clothing all those employed, to rubbish collection and disposal, lighting, running of office equipment, telecommunications and servers along with air conditioning/heating

it may be that there's room for improvement all round...

Everyone gets a set amount and if you go over your allocated budget you can buy more credit (obvs at a cost) or incur much higher costs

Hows that?

So rich people get to do whatever they like becausr they can afford to buy as many carbon credits as they want. Sounds about right 🙁

So as much as it’s a fatalistic thing to say, I wouldn’t worry too much. The planet will call time on us when it needs to that’s certain.

Mtbing has no measurable affect on the environment. Live your life don't be a dick and enjoy yourself. Everything will end one day whatever we do !!!

Buying lot's of shiny bike parts from all over the world will help to save the planet.
It helps the global economy, which will help decrease global poverty, which will increase education which will slow the population growth. Phew, everyone wins!

Question for you eco types - do you really envisage any of this working?

Let's take one specific example - air travel. Now let's just say we all stop travelling by air, or at least we make a sizeable reduction in air travel. How do you think this will affect the economies of countries heavily reliant on tourism? Greece would be an obvious European example, but many developing countries are even more precarious. I suspect that if the aims of, say, the Green Party (and equivalents in other developed countries) were met on air travel we'd be looking at a large number of these tourism-reliant countries becoming failed states.

There are multifarious other examples like this, yet, whenever I've raised this point I've never received an adequate response.

I'm not just making a rhetorical point here; I'm actually interested to hear how issues like these could be addressed, because, at the moment I see only over simplification and calls for abstinence (bit like religion, then).

JP

First, and sorry for the slight digression, I think it's not helpful to refer to eco-types.

The range of perspectives that environmentally inclined people hold is so vast, everything from the hugely optimistic ecomodernists who want an economically wealthy sci-fi world of urbanisation and nuclear power but with as much of nature spared from any human impacts as possible, to the deep ecologists, some of whom see humans much the same way that Agent Smith in the matrix does (i.e. basically a virus).

So the answers you'll get to that particular question of flights will vary accordingly.

The thought that pops into my head is that any tourism-dependent places that would suffer from aviation cut backs would be in just as shit a situation if there was another financial crash that left people without enough money to take a decent holiday. Which will certainly happen at some point. So I'd say there are underlying issues there that need addressing, irrespective of climate change. I'm not the person to say how though, there are people much better informed than me.

More broadly, my personal opinion is that: no I find it hard to imagine any of this working out as well as it really needs to do to avoid massive loss of life, human and otherwise. I'm going to try to help as well as I can without completely ****ing my own life up though. I don't have a great deal else more important to do tbh!

Middle class guilt isn't going to solve climate change!

I’m going to try to help as well as I can without completely ****ing my own life up though.

I think this is all we can do, perhaps also try to apply some pressure or influence over practices that continue to be wasteful. Change your buying habits, etc.

what broader changes in cycling culture, business models, trail design, etc. could make lower impact riding more appealable?

Supply logistics. EG, you buy a 'sustainable' steel frameset. The Reynolds tubes may be made in the UK, shipped to Taiwan for assembly into a frame, frames are shipped back. That seems bonkers to me now. It's just steel, with all respect to Reynolds' great product. Buy a frame made from materials made closer to the place the frame is made. Buy a UK-made 853 frame - look how good that Eighteen bikes frame in FGF is for the £. Or, buy a TW cr-mo bike from Taiwan. Small difference but our buying habits are our capitalist votes and it counts in the mid to longer term.

And I'd like to see the bike industry celebrate simpler riding - riding is simply enjoyable so why does it need a trip to Les Gets or Whistler on a 4k bike to be at a level that's seen as interesting or impressive to a marketing dept? Naturally we all want to be seen as successful or making the most of life, to ourselves and others. So why is some of the most satisfying riding I do (about to head out now at 5.50am, a local 2hr loop early on a nice morning, plain old woodland singletrack) so unmarketable? On face value it's pretty basic stuff and it's hard to get across how good it is in an advert or snapshot. But as 'lifestyle' riding goes it's become far more valuable to me than the 'load up and hit that destination' riding I used to do. It's low product impact, the bike I use for this riding has had no more than chains, rings and tyres plus a few bearings in 8 years now. If I rode for kicks I'd struggle with it but that was my riding 20 years ago. Now I ride for being outside, flow, exercise, opportunism and escapism etc. Travel to ride kills off a lot of that.

I agree with the cycling hobby / sport / daily transport comments. My daily transport bike is a £250 Vitus SS that I've had for years & only needed to change the break pads. My sport bike gets things replaced before they fail & is higher maintainance in terms of oils etc.

I've just built another bike (2nd hand) & the amount of packages coming through the door (both new & old stuff) is embarrassing!

I ride from the doorstep for 99% of my rides.

I do wonder if we tried the "doorstep" approach to more aspects of our lives if we'd enrich our locales more with what we'd like to be around. Why drive 10 miles for a coffee???

My guilt is buying online as it's cheaper & I have more choice as it then adds to a single item delivery which can't be good.

We're waking up, slowly, becoming aware, but our greed may be the planets downfall.

You don’t have to ride new places, you can enjoy your local trails, ride them better, appreciate the way they change with weather and light and direction.

This. Most of our riding's from the door and the odd time we drive it's for a local race (few times a year) or the car's out and we're up that way anyway so we might as well hit up Choppers for some skids and/or wheelies.

The more often you ride your local stuff- and it doesn't have to be exclusively off road, you can have just as much fun arsing about on stairs and walls and stuff - the more lines you'll see that you can ride. This brings the type of bike you ride into question though. I think there's more fun to be squeezed from a rigid or HT on smaller local stuff.

@legometeorology, was thinking about this on a ride this am, what sort of overall consumption goes into producing goods, eg an average car vs an average bike? When we look at a product that has a lot of complex parts, shaping and tooling do we see the see manufacturing energy costs? Any perspective on this?

I wonder where the CO2 output tipping point is between buying a new eco-friendly car that's cost (? just googled, not sure how valid) 120,000 to 170,000 megajoules energy or 750-1250 gallons of petrol to make vs running an older car that puts out a bit more CO2. And making the tooling that makes the car may add to that.

Cars may be the worst in terms of energy cost, lifespan and churn rate but I wonder where the E-MTB FS bike sits on that scale. There's suggestions of a basic bike (ie a £350 hybrid) costing ~500lbs of CO2 to make. A FS bike could be 2x that based on frame and parts complexity. 5x that for an E-FS maybe? Not sure - battery could cost much more. So possibly 1000lbs to 2,500lbs for some higher-end MTBs.

A car can be 15,000 to 25,000lbs, based on those MJ figures and general figures of a gallon of petrol giving off ~10lbs of CO2.

So very quick and roughly with conversions and assumptions along the way, a mountain bike may be 1/10th of a car in terms of manufacturing CO2 cost. I would have thought it would be less.

Why drive 10 miles for a coffee???

No-one actually does this... do they?

And I’d like to see the bike industry celebrate simpler riding – riding is simply enjoyable so why does it need a trip to Les Gets or Whistler on a 4k bike to be at a level that’s seen as interesting or impressive to a marketing dept?

This would be a very good start. I can imagine a pretty attractive marketing campaign could be made around a nice simple rigid or hardtail bike just called 'The Local' or something a bit catchier. You could easily have some little trailer where a rider blasts along a road jammed with cars, one could even have a bike rack full of enduro machines, and then dashes down some little ginnal into the woods and off to the moors or wherever.

This isn't an option for everyone of course, but a good thing to encourage where it is.

That old dirt cheap Pinnacle Ramin One was a good example actually. The Ramin Plus would do to, but I guess it was aimed at bikepacking.

but our greed may be the planets downfall.

The Planet will be here long after we are gone. As will life. The Planet has got another few billion years to support life. We've been around for 200,000.

It's pretty arrogant to assume we'll be top dogs forever! There's already been 5 major extinction events, "the Planet" will be fine!

I'm not saying we shouldn't try btw, but our game is to maintain the status quo for as long as possible. If there's any chance of that happening, it's only going to happen at governmental levels, individual choice is all well and good, but there's fundamental changes that needs to happen, cause well, consumerism isn't going to go anywhere, so instead of saying lets cut this that and that, we need to figure out how to make it all sustainable, which needs more fundamental systemic worldwide changes.

Doable imo, really just needs there willingness to do it, which ultimately means, soon as it's profitable....it'll happen. (either that or it'll happen through necessity, we do like brinkmanship!)

@legometeorology I've been following this thread with interest, as it seems we've been thinking roughly about similar things. I'm a complete sucker for trawling all the notable cycling sites and often getting pulled down into the shiny-stuff rabbit hole. My saving grace from all that is just being skint- I have to make stuff last and just can't afford new gear all the time.
I'm lucky though, that Dover is such a good place for MTB, that the need to drive anywhere further away rarely raises itself.
A great part of it all, I think is the aforementioned interwebz and magazines, STW included.
Sites like The Radavist and PathLessPedalled do showcase more of the sustainable side of MTB as well as the latest and greatest, but rarely outside of the US. I have been thinking that there is an opportunity for a UK equivalent, focussing on "boring" riding. Think RSF, Bikepacking.com, The Radavist, bimbling, Bicycle Quarterly etc. But all in one place and actually made to look as good as the glossy, rad stuff. It doesn't have to be necessarily over-worthy and hair-shirt, just make it look as good as it feels. Any takers?

Someone earlier posted about the environmental impact of building trails (is at trail centres). So you have the quarrying of stone, transport of stone (no idea whether stone is sourced locally at trail centres, but you’d imagine that in Wales, Lakes etc, it would/should be), the heavy machinery to build and maintain the trails.

I always wonder about this when people get upset about erosion out on the hills. The option of putting in hardcore/gravel (massively sanitising a trail) is very temporary and involves a lot of energy and a massive hole in the ground elsewhere. IT particularly upsets me when it's already eroded down to the bedrock.

I'd like to think we're reasonably conscious as a couple to do our bit & try to cut down waste, plastic use, buy local & reduce consumerism. There is an element of hypocrisy however, as we are going to Canada this summer to ride our bikes, and then to Italy later in the year to do the same.

Taking it back a level, to 'riding local' given the sort of riding I enjoy, it doesn't really exist & it probably does make sense to move somewhere better. We get through a reasonable amount of kit, as we ride, and race a lot, so things wear out, get broken and replaced.

That said, to be honest the 'hobby cyclist' with disposable income who spends a chunk of cash on their thing each year to me isn't really the issue at this stage, it's a raindrop in a lake compared to the hundreds of millions of tonnes of plastic waste we produce every year for example.

We will probably be hit by an asteroid before we totally wreck this place. I'm sure the plastic will survive though.

I have been thinking that there is an opportunity for a UK equivalent, focussing on “boring” riding. Think RSF, Bikepacking.com, The Radavist, bimbling, Bicycle Quarterly etc. But all in one place and actually made to look as good as the glossy, rad stuff. It doesn’t have to be necessarily over-worthy and hair-shirt, just make it look as good as it feels. Any takers?

Definitely, but please don't require it to have yet [i]another[/i] type of bike.

I think a big part of this is that MTBing has morphed over the years from primarily being "off-road adventure" (as I remember it from my youth) to providing condensed weekend Thrills and spill, primarily at specific venues (trail centres) this is a product of social conditions, people are now more "time poor" than they used to be, and the media portrayal of MTBing... But of course the catchall phrase MTBing covers an awful lot of different things now.

I find it interesting that "bikepacking" has become an increasingly popular subset of MTBing in recent years, along with the rise of the Gravel bike... As mentioned above riding further, from your door seems like an obvious solution, but then we come back to the whole 'time poor' element of things...

The truth is you will never make any form of cycling a zero carbon activity, but I do think quantifying just how high/low the environmental impact of the different subsets of bike riding are/can be has much wider value.

I also think a bit of personal experimentation to see if you can do some conventionally 'high carbon' activities with a minimised environmental cost. like hitting a trail centre.

Example: jump on the motorway to BPW and then sit in a diesel guzzling uplift truck for 8 hours of runs Vs train it to Merthyr Tydfil, and then ~30min pedal to the venue, pedal up pass for the day? the likely trade-off there is time and convenience, you may well end up having to camp locally or book a premier inn? perhaps turning a day's riding at BPW into a bit more of an adventure...

That old dirt cheap Pinnacle Ramin One was a good example actually. The Ramin Plus would do to, but I guess it was aimed at bikepacking.

Thanks - exactly what it was meant to do. Both just aimed at simple, fun riding. Neither were volume sellers though, that may be a reflection of the Evans customer and it's low key looks, lower showroom appeal vs more featured and loudly marketed bikes/brands. ie, the old what the industry offers <--> what the customer buys point and why things are slow, or at least not easy, to change.

Truth is, it's difficult to market anything subtle and nuanced eg 'make touring appealing' vs the big-impact stuff of Enduro or Red Bull.

@kayla1 Ha! No, that's the beauty of it- it should be all about NOT requiring a new type of bike.
Articles on bodgery, what-works-with-what etc.

Doable imo, really just needs there willingness to do it, which ultimately means, soon as it’s profitable….it’ll happen.

Call me a doom-monger .. but like smoking despite knowing the risks, this is all too far in the future for most of us to be acting now. When it's serious enough to act it's too late. It won't be profitable to act because profitable is doing things the cheap dirty shortcut way. What'll happen is fewer and fewer people will have comfortable wealthy western lifestyles (that will need greater protection). The average 'wealth' level will drop globally as population grows vs space and resources.

'The Age of Stupid' is over a decade old and nothing has changed. What did any of us do 10 years ago to take steps to reduce our impact?

So, yeah. Fun on a simple bike locally is good. Helps me cope in a world that seems totally nuts : )

I think having a local "scene" is what make riding possible for many. Even if the topology is not favourable you can build fun trails.( See swinley in the mountains of Berkshire.) But if there is nowhere to build or no one to build with people don't ride locally.

I live on Hampshire Dorset boarder and some people have put great effort in to making a blue run but it has been made so blue it's actively avoiding what little topology there is here. Don't get me wrong some people have obviously put effort in to talking to the right people but it's so sanitised it just becomes used by families with tag alongs. Not that there is anything wrong with families using a trail but it shows its level of challenge even on a rigid single speed. Because this is of no interest and other land is out of bounds I don't ride from the doorstep.

We will probably be hit by an asteroid before we totally wreck this place.

Asteroids only 100m across (big but won't wipe out more than a town) - every 5,000 years on average. Really big ones but still not guaranteed extinction-level (unless we're struggling already) - every 500,000 years or more.

To some degree I almost see it the opposite way, i.e. shouldn't people being more time poor be a perfect incentive for doorstep riding? It means a 1-2hr window becomes enough for a blast.

Again, I'm lucky, but some of my best rides are those two hour doorstep blasts in the evening, when you don't need a map, only need minimal tools, and outside weekends I can easily avoid anything resembling a crowd.

@legometeorology, was thinking about this on a ride this am, what sort of overall consumption goes into producing goods, eg an average car vs an average bike? When we look at a product that has a lot of complex parts, shaping and tooling do we see the see manufacturing energy costs? Any perspective on this?

Unfortunately I tend to look at things from a fairly macro perspective (like say the carbon footprint of a city or whole nation), so details like this escape me. I'm one of those academics who runs out of answers when we get to practical everyday questions 🙂

Thanks – exactly what it was meant to do. Both just aimed at simple, fun riding. Neither were volume sellers though, that may be a reflection of the Evans customer and it’s low key looks, lower showroom appeal vs more featured and loudly marketed bikes/brands.

Shame. From my own perspective, there should be a real hook there somewhere. Do you think Pinnacle will try something like that again?

If there's one promising idea I'm getting from this thread it's the potential for some-sort of movement to make local riding something special, not just something you do when you've no time for something better. I guess there could be scope for some sort of arty but informative blog-style site with routes starting within or on the edge of major UK cities, some high quality media, musing on simple bikes that still embrace genuinely awesome modern tech like droppers, some public transport info for more adventurous rides that are well served by trains...

If there’s one promising idea I’m getting from this thread it’s the potential for some-sort of movement to make local riding something special, not just something you do when you’ve no time for something better. I guess there could be scope for some sort of arty but informative blog-style site with routes starting within or on the edge of major UK cities, some high quality media, musing on simple bikes that still embrace genuinely awesome modern tech like droppers, some public transport info for more adventurous rides that are well served by trains…

My thoughts exactly, but rather than a wordpress style blog, I think something closer to Bikepacking.com or TheRadavist where there's regular updates, different subsections and archives. I'm afraid though, that would probably be a full time job in itself.
Any ideas for a name?

its a very interesting subject. Like everything, most people will have their own agenda/thoughts/ideas. I feel very aware of the global situation and as futile as it sometimes feels, I try and do my bit with regards to single use plastics, recycling etc etc.

But like everyone, I am a hypocrite. My recycling bin is stacked full, I avoid plastics.... yet my bike is made from carbon and I drive around in a fossil fuel burning Civic Type-R hot hatch.

I think one of the problems is how we now live our lives and are accustomed to certain 'ways of life'. Not leaving home to do the weekly shopping, relying on the internet, wanting the latest and greatest items etc etc. Which in turn reflects in how we ride our bikes and where we ride them.

You have spent 6k on a shiny new bike, why on earth would you not want to send the gnar on it. For many its not possible to do that locally, so a trip is the only way. Then kicks in the selfish human nature that is now the norm. Why use public transport that is less convenient when you can jump in your SUV and drive to the trails.

I have some very tame, but fun enough local riding to me. But equally I will drive to Surrey Hills or QECP for something a touch more lively. Would I still go to these places if I had better riding on my door step.... yes, but a lot less often.

How do I get better riding on my doorstep... short of the suggested idea of moving, its not possible (or I move closer to good trails, but my commute to work becomes longer, in a car). So maybe the solution is to allow people to build trails on local land. But we all know how impossible this is. So its a catch 22.

People can definitely do more to preserve the world we live in or to help slow down the rot, but much of the time they don't want to, as its up to the 'government or superpowers' to force us to make the change. Heaven forbid we should do our own bit.

Just for reference I have given up eating crisps in an effort to reduce the unrecyclable waste I produce. It might not sound like much, but by god, do I love a crisp!

Have you got kids? If not, rejoice in the fact that you’re doing the most environmentally friendly thing possible by not breeding more consumers.

Always love this when it gets rolled out. It’s likely to be the younger generations that will try and sort out all the things mine and previous generations have royally ****ed up.

I’ve recently gone to one bike and a rigid at that. It’s a compromise on some fronts, but bloody great fun and great as an all rounder.

My thoughts exactly

Yep, in fact I realise my post now reads like I stole your ideas 🙂

Shame, I've not got the time or expertise to put into something like that, but I love the idea. I'll at least spend sometime thinking up a name.

jameso

Subscriber
Doable imo, really just needs there willingness to do it, which ultimately means, soon as it’s profitable….it’ll happen.

Call me a doom-monger .. but like smoking despite knowing the risks, this is all too far in the future for most of us to be acting now. When it’s serious enough to act it’s too late. It won’t be profitable to act because profitable is doing things the cheap dirty shortcut way. What’ll happen is fewer and fewer people will have comfortable wealthy western lifestyles (that will need greater protection). The average ‘wealth’ level will drop globally as population grows vs space and resources.

‘The Age of Stupid’ is over a decade old and nothing has changed. What did any of us do 10 years ago to take steps to reduce our impact?

So, yeah. Fun on a simple bike locally is good. Helps me cope in a world that seems totally nuts : )

tbh, overall, uk emissions have been on a downward trend since 1990, down 44% total emissions, and 39% on C02 emission, so in general that is pretty decent. the trend is looking good, almost halved emissioned in under 30 years. So project that forward and the future is looking good from a uk only perspective.

Problem is the rest of the world, while it continues to develop and expand things will continue to rise over all. So it's just a waiting game.

In general the EU looks like it's stabilized and heading towards as downtrend, as is the US, I'd say both will be on a downward trend over the next 50 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/dec/05/brutal-news-global-carbon-emissions-jump-to-all-time-high-in-2018

But as the rest of the world develops, not really much we can say to them, given how much we personally used in the passed. So it's a cases of waiting to see how, the likes of China and India, basically Asia in general develops over the next 50 years I guess. I'd think the Asians are well placed to inovate and times goes on too.

So, aye as mentioned, I do agree there's very much a game of brinkmanship going on. I don't think it's completely unachieveable. "The West" seems to be on course to a downtrend(although don't think we can quite say that yet), and it's a case of lets see how Asia develops is really what it looks like to my layman eyes...

It's too early to be overly pessimistic yet imo..