[Closed] more people switching to flats for xc riding....

Why the change ?

It's betterer and for most people the efficiency gains are meaningless.

Did you ask them?

Why would you think that your group is now (or in the past for that matter) representative of the wider riding community?

Did you ask them?

Why would you think that your group is now (or in the past for that matter) representative of the wider riding community?

err, no, just wondering about it on reflection.... 😯

Same reason why tyres got fatter, stems shorter, bars risier and angles slacker.

People seem to be more interested in grins than xc speed.

When this first started happening (for me it was 1998) we called them "fat and happy" bikes. Having said that, I only swapped to flats about 3 years ago.

I've moved to flats for two reasons, firstly my spds are on my commuter and I can't afford to buy another set nor be arsed to keep swapping. Secondly it's a new bike and I always get a bit too ambitious so the flats give me the bail out security. I'm loving the flats again so will probably just upgrade them rather than replace with spds.

It could be that XC is getting more technical.

Personally I've gone with flats because I find them much better for the bits when I'm not on the bike (e.g. pushing/carrying), easier to get started again if I have to dab in a technical section and because I can't detect any performance advantage to SPDs. It's not that I haven't tried. I've done timed runs on the same segments with flats and SPDs and I just can't detect any significant difference in speed. YMMV of course.

define "XC"

I use both SPD and flats.

define "XC"

Trail centres happened I reckon. Before casual riders like me, would have just gone out for ride, heathery singletrack and fire roads mainly, now I can nip out and he sort of trails that used to be hidden in the woods are now nicely signposted for me, so I'm doing more techy riding than I used to.

I still own some spuds, might have to put some on one of my bikes later today I've run out of decent flats and can't afford another pair for my new bike 😕

In the past it was seen you had to use SPDs to be a serious rider as they were that much better. But they aren't that much better, they are just different and I think people are realising this and trying flats more. I use clipless on my xc race bike but flats on my trail bike. There is a lot I like about flats and to be honest I don't notice a loss in efficiency enough to worry about it.

SPDs for general trail riding, most natural stuff, and all that just get out and ride stuff.
Flats for trail centres, and the slightly more technical or mountainous natural stuff.
And sometimes PD-M545's which are caged SPDs.

I gave flats a try around 2 years ago for my xc wheels on the ground riding after 5 years of toe clips followed by 20 years of spd's. I've no intention of going back, I just prefer not being attached to the bike and I think the improvement in pedals and shoes means I have no concern about my feet slipping. The only worry I have is is it ok to mix flat shoes and Lycra? 🙂

there is a certain percentage of 'serious' or shall we say snobby mtb riders than consider spds to be what you choose when you are serious about mtbing, like 'pahh he's still on flats, must be an amateur'
I've noticed this on here and other forums and within my local mtb club. I prefer flats too. DMR V8s here.

There's some strange views on here... I use spds for everything, xc racing, commuting, trails... I just feel more secure with my feet clipped in - nothing to do with snobbery 😆

Use what feels comfortable to you.

It's betterer

I'd guess either people are doing more technical riding/crashing or it's a fashion thing.
fashion stating previously "SPDs are for serious cyclists" so most were on spds and now "flats are for gnarr cyclists" and we get a big shift to flats.

SPDs for me, used to have flats for playing around on (aka practising skills stuff), don't get time to play now, I just ride so I'll take every advantage. I don't fall off much so the ejector seat side of flats doesn't appeal to me but I do however pedal every ride so efficiency gains of spds do appeal 🙂

Numerous contributory factors for me:

1. My riding is tending more towards big mountains and tech descents, so flats suit me for both the hike-a-bike climbs and the tech descents. Good all-round compromise.

2. Getting clipped into spds was sometimes an issue when there was no easy run-in to an obstacle.

3. More feedback and less float. First thing that I noticed on first day on flats was that there was slight wear in the swingarm bearing. Never felt it on SPDs.

4. Consistancy. I have a few bikes, ranging from 180 F/S to 140 H/T. Flats work for all of them.

5. Wear. SPD pedals and cleats both wore out pretty quickly for me, and with a few bikes/shoes wearing at different rates, interchangability between which pairs of SPD shoes on which bikes was just overcomplicating things.

i think its cos the stock advice now is to learn on flats - people buying bikes are advised to get flats to learn on. therefore more people start on flats and once confident the move to spd`s is harder to justify.

i ride both and see teh benefits of both. for decent length rides spds are more efficient but it does limit that 'ooh a cheeky wallride, i'll give that a go' aspect to your ride which i miss when i'm clipped in.

100% about flexibility for me. My bikes get used for riding with my two young children, club xc out in the hills riding and utility trips. I would be changing pedals twice or more a week and frankly I cannot be bothered. If I was planning a rare full on day in the South Downs I might bung the spuds back on for the extra arch support from the disco slippers.

I also think my pedalling action (flexing properly at the ankle) is better on flats because it needs to be.

there is a certain percentage of 'serious' or shall we say snobby mtb riders than consider spds to be what you choose when you are serious about mtbing, like 'pahh he's still on flats, must be an amateur'
I've noticed this on here and other forums and within my local mtb club. I prefer flats too. DMR V8s here.

Eh? Where did you get all that from?
Has anyone ever actually said something like that to you?
If anything STW seems to be full "Flat pedal evangelists" at the minute but I don't think there's quite the tension over pedal choice that you seem to imagine?

I'd say the vast majority of MTBers actually DGAF, it's only bike-bores that over think and then "Tribalise" these minor kit choice "issues"...

My personal "Journey" with pedals has been Clips and Straps for a most of the 90s, went to riding flats in the late 90s stuck with that through the 00s and took up SPDs in the last 3-4 years or so and now only ride SPDs...

Apparently I buck the supposed current "trend" but the reality is that people use whatever they believe works best for them, I simply decided SPDs worked for me (after years of resistance), I could pick up flats again tomorrow, but I'm not all that bothered by them at the minute...

Both clips and flats are used quite successfully by all sorts of riders for all sorts of riding, its really not a big deal... Honest.

SPD's for 90% of riding, except i switch to flats for riding in the Alps, don't know why, just prefer it being easier to bail out, plus find it easier getting on/off chair lifts and pushing the bike.

And flats on the fat bike, mostly ride on sand, so often just grind to a half and flats and large standover mean i still have both testicles.

cookeaa - Member

Eh? Where did you get all that from?
Has anyone ever actually said something like that to you?

I've had, in all seriousness, "Surprised you've not upgraded to SPDs, you're quite good now". Like flats were something I was supposed to have grown out of.

Fashion isn't it? Sam Hill won some stuff, Steve Jones decoded it must be because he was on flat pedals and everyone decided that rad riders wear flats.

I prefer SPDs for all riding, I find I have much greater control over what the bike is doing, don't dab and my feet will not come off the pedals unless I want them to. Flats for me are a backwards step, and I have noticed that the fastest dh riders (the ones winning world cups) are back on spds again now.

it's a fashion thing.
fashion stating previously "SPDs are for serious cyclists" so most were on spds and now "flats are for gnarr cyclists" and we get a big shift to flats.

This.

I think that now you can buy a 160mm bike you can pedal all day, switching to flats just reflects that fact. Even probably 5 or 6 years ago, a 160mm bike was compromised for everyday use in the UK, and so most people had an HT or shirt travel FS, and rode in SPD's. Now you can buy a super capable mince tank yet riding it anywhere, i think more people have moved to flats to suit the more technical riding that bike can support. And the trail centre point made above is pretty valid to i think

I've never had a crank spin round and **** me in the shins since I went to SPDs, and for that alone I'll stick with them. I do pedal noticeably better on them too, but that could be be familiarity.
Probably just use case though - how many flat pedal users are out doing 20-30 miles with a few bits of nice singletrack vs hammering technical terrain? My riding is mainly the former, and I prefer SPD for it.

munrobiker - Member

Fashion isn't it? Sam Hill won some stuff, Steve Jones decoded it must be because he was on flat pedals and everyone decided that rad riders wear flats.

Then last year, Pinkbike ran a pseudo-science article "proving" that SPDs were best, because only one rider had won a world cup race on flats in the 2 seasons before. But ignoring that only 4 riders had won a world cup at all- so what it basically meant was "Whatever Aaron Gwin and Greg Minaar have on their feet wins races"

My switch was for medical reasons, my leg's not keen on any sort of twisting but still, I'm probably as happy on flats as I ever was on SPDs. And I love that I can just jump on my bikes and go

For me, it's so I can do this round Cannock...

[img] [/img]

[i]SPDs for general trail riding, most natural stuff, and all that just get out and ride stuff.
Flats for trail centres, and the slightly more technical or mountainous natural stuff.
[/i]

This.

If I'm riding by myself or looking at XCing with 1 or 2 others I'll run SPD's> If we are going for a local group ride it's bound to include a load of (more) technical stuff - so flats.

[i]how many flat pedal users are out doing 20-30 miles with a few bits of nice singletrack vs hammering technical terrain? My riding is mainly the former, and I prefer SPD for it. [/i]

When I was Southern-based it just wasn't worth going flats for the few yards of real techie stuff, but now living in Scotland I've downhill trails that last for nearly a mile 🙂

I can't speak for anyone else, but the thought of having to change my shoes in order to just dick about on a bike makes me sad.

I've always used SPDs and like being connected to the bike. Other than that I couldn't care less what other people use, like or dislike TBH

It's probably a mixture of fashion and what you are used to. There's also the cost of switching: it used to be that switching to SPDs was the expensive direction but looking at flats nowadays there isn't much between switching either way. Give or take: pedals - £50, shoes - £90, you might need shin pads when going to flats as well.

When SPDs first came out most flat pedals weren't particularly good so the benefits of clipless outweighed the cost of switching. Modern flats are much better so the difference is much less.

[i]I can't speak for anyone else, but the thought of having to change my shoes in order to just dick about on a bike makes me sad. [/i]

What, you think we carry whichever shoes/pedals we aren't using just in case? 😉

how many flat pedal users are out doing 20-30 miles with a few bits of nice singletrack vs hammering technical terrain?

a 30-40km ride for me is quite common. I've tried SPD's and didn't like them, feel far more confident and happy on flats. So, it's flats for me.

Like most things, it's largely fashion.

For me, SPDs are more efficient for flat-out XC speed. Lots of the guys I ride with are (unfashionably) into sprinting about all over the place and I find keeping up with them on flats is a pain.

I prefer flats for those (fashionable) technical, downhill-orientated rides where you're not rushing up the hills and along the flat bits.

As has been said, it's mostly fashion. SPD's used to be in fashion, now flats are. Just the same way as an upright riding position was in fashion, then a low, race position with narrow bars, now back to upright with bars getting wider everyday. Other examples are available.

As much as the mags and sites like this praise the current trends as the greatest thing ever, they were doing exactly the same for the old fashionable things in the past. I remember when long, slack bikes were scoffed at even though the benifit of them now was still the case then. If you shout loud enough and repeat it over and over people will believe you.

Recently had a foray with flats after years of spuds.

Flats were 100% responsible* for my now broken scaphoid. If I was clipped in I wouldn't have superman'd and landed on my hands, I'd have stuck with the bike and landed on my elbow pads / shoulder / hip.

*not necessarily true

What scares SPD users from riding flats for XC is the fear that it'll make them much slower because of the huge loss in efficiency - but it's simply not true. Yes there is a marginal gain hence it would be foolish to do serious XC racing in flats (except in really muddy conditions) but it is a tiny difference in average long-term applied power.

When I started riding again in 2009 most in my circle were on clips but now it's definitely the other way around. Some of the clips riders have switched to flats all/part of the time but most newcomers are starting on flats and staying on flats.

Why would you want to wear SPDs for a GMBC ride? You'll only get 10' before you need to unclip and wait for someone to stop faffing. 😛

GHill - Member
Why would you want to wear SPDs for a GMBC ride? You'll only get 10' before you need to unclip and wait for someone to stop faffing.

Posted 1 minute ago # Report-Post

iainc - Member
I guess youre missing us then Grant ?

Only for the cafe stops and banter 😉

I agree that the speed advantage of SPDs is marginal. But it is real and noticeable when riding hard.

For me, the advantages of flats are marginal, too. When I use them it's because I like the feel/experience, not because they are 'better'.

Spuds are cheating, but then again, I still use clips and straps.

Switched to flats from SPDs part way through last season. Run DMR Vaults and 5:10s. The facts are this - I am able to commit harder into tech/sketchy sections and as a net result am faster.

As has also been suggested - good riding 150-160mm Enduro bikes driving more aggressive riding than old style XC, and so riders are evolving to the required better technique that flats encourage.

I used toe clips when I first started out then SPDs then had a dabble with flats to try and ease the knee issues that I hade developed and got worse with SPDs. Just could not get on with them, was using the biggest platform I could find for my size 12 fat feet but was constantly having to reposition my feet to get comfortable for my knees.....apart from thwacking my shins a few times which I still do with current Time Atacs on all my bikes including the road bike so all my riding shoes/boots can be worn on any bike. I have however considered trying flats again on the FS as I am running the DH version Times on it and it's nice having the platform if you haven't clipped in quick enough before hitting something really technical I suppose that and ability to bail PDQ .....I just worry that at places like Antur my feet will loose contact with flat pedals or elsewhere at speed and result in a snapped leg/ankle.
It would be interesting to see some statistics on such injuries and pedal use at the time.

What scares SPD users from riding flats for XC is the fear that it'll make them much slower because of the huge loss in efficiency - but it's simply not true. Yes there is a marginal gain hence it would be foolish to do serious XC racing in flats (except in really muddy conditions) but it is a tiny difference in average long-term applied power.

How big is tiny? As much as I like riding flats I would beg to differ. Riding my 5.10s I have a lot less power and I cannot get up some technical climbs that I can with SPDs on, it is more tiring. With SPDs I have the options of more pedalling techniques and the shoes are stiff as boards. I practice drops and jumps with flats which is fun and using flats means I remember heals down with SPDs.

If there was any danger of me crashing as I was unsure or going slow I would probably prefer flats but then again maybe you should not ride stuff that you feel unsure about.

then again maybe you should not ride stuff that you feel unsure about.

That's the only way you get more technically capable as a rider - otherwise you end up one of those glorified roadie/XC mincers who constantly climb off the bike to cope with a switchback/drop etc.

but then again maybe you should not ride stuff that you feel unsure about

Why on earth not ? that's half of the fun 🙂

What scares SPD users from riding flats for XC is the fear that it'll make them much slower because of the huge loss in efficiency - but it's simply not true.

well - yes it is. for someone interested in speed (up mainly) there is definately an advantage in clips. and its quite large. noticeable to me and i`m no whippet but i do have a decent hill to go home up every night

however most people are out for a merry jaunt/banter in the woods so therefore outright efficiency is not needed. the ability to 'have a go' is.

it all depends on what terrain you ride regularly and what you like to do on a bike.

For most, it's fashion, plain and simple.

Why do so many MTBers wear baggy clothes? The same. Like many things, the UK seems to be out of step with mainland Europe on this.

Why do so many MTBers wear baggy clothes? The same. Like many things, the UK seems to be out of step with mainland Europe on this

Because we're all fat and 40 IT nerds who know they shouldn't have lycra on.

What scares SPD users from riding flats for XC is the fear that it'll make them much slower because of the huge loss in efficiency - but it's simply not true. Yes there is a marginal gain hence it would be foolish to do serious XC racing in flats (except in really muddy conditions) but it is a tiny difference in average long-term applied power.

I can't bunny hop or jump with flats on, I know, I know, I'm not doing it right!. One reason I'd like to get away from spd's is the indisputable fact that a brass cleat on the bottom if the foot acts to conduct all the heat out yer foot in the winter.

I tried going back to flats and hated it. I much prefer using SPDs.

I switched a few years ago.

I did so as I wanted to be able to start doing a bit more jumping and I felt more natural on flats.
I liked being able to put a foot down if necessary
I have weak knees and the twisting to release is bad for my knees especially when tired
More than once I have fallen into the mud having failed to release my SPDs on the correct side

monkeychild - Member

I tried going back to flats and hated it. I much prefer using SPDs.

The question I always ask is, how good a go did you give it? You can't just jump from one to the other and expect to instantly get it, there's some basics that need to be relearned sometimes and that means the first rides will probably suck- it's like suddenly, you don't know how to ride. You can't compare the two unless you put serious time into both and work it all out.

(I think though this works both ways it goes more so for people going from SPDs to flats, but then the folks that have the most trouble with that swap are probably the folks with the most to gain)

Main thing is that if technique issues stop you from getting on with the other sorts of pedals, they're technique issues that you still have when you go back to your own- whether it's dabbing too much, or not moving well with the bike. Pretty much everyone can learn from swapping over.

Always ridden flats, but want to try SPDs for more XC & Climbs.

But with an ACL reconstruction I don't want to be twisted up in my frame when I inevitable crash and the SPDs don't release. Even if you decide to go for more XC ride it always ends up that you go down the sketchy bits too quickly and end up in the bushes/trees/ditch!

[quote=philb88 ]Always ridden flats, but want to try SPDs for more XC & Climbs.
But with an ACL reconstruction I don't want to be twisted up in my frame when I inevitable crash and the SPDs don't release.
You could try the new Shimano Click'R pedals. They are supposed to release more easily.

I started in flats but now I switch between the two depending on mood and how cold/ muddy it is since my flat shoes are warmer.

I'm riding a hard tail, according to strava there's little difference in my speed descending on either. Where I notice the difference is putting power down on flatter sections. As it gets rougher and the hard rear of the bike bounces more it's definitely easier to keep pedalling smoothly when clipped in. With flats I sometimes find my feet get bounced mid pedal and that upsets my pedal stroke.

I feel safe in spds (strange yes). Part of the bike and that. Although I am having to use flats on a jumps skills course so that will be interesting. Also flats are good for the family bike ride, strapping your spd shoes on and clipping in is way over the top.

Fashion doesn't really feature for me. With SPDs, it's fit and forget, just let the legs go round, no skiting off the pedal and scraping shin bones or rattling nuts off the top tube. Particularly useful on stuttery ground but certainly more tricky starting off on steep climbs. Ye pays yer money....

Baggies and spuds!!!! Are you taking the piss???? (and no I don't care what a load of DH rider do)

I'm currently trying out SPDs on my SS. Not really taking to it at the moment, I can see some flats going back on soon.

I want to get on with SPDs just for winter footwear choice.

Some great mixes of opinions, hugely informative so far, keep em coming !

Baggies and spuds!!!! Are you taking the piss????

I'd agree that if you're interested in improving technically and being able to use the best system for any particular ride then it's worth trying - and persevering - with both. If not then just stick with what you like.

About 8-10 years ago I didn't manage to unclip in time at 0 mph and went over landing on tree stumps... One battered my leg (which bloody hurt!) and another the top tube denting it (one of the coke can Coves).

I decided to give caged spds a try but they are really the worst of both worlds. Worse to clip out of and sod all use if not properly clipped in (IMHO).

So about 5-6 years ago I decided to give flats another try. I only put them on for a couple rides really but liked them so much they stayed on (and got for my other bikes too). I was much happier on the techier stuff knowing it was easier to bail if necessary.

I'm much happier on flats, only using spds for commuting. Can't see going back to spds full time off road.

Clip less always on the road bike though...

Right, fark it, as a spudder for 10 years or more, I'm for giving it a real go, I'm for giving flats the whole summer to convince me. I'll decide after that. Post bookmarked.

I found spd's a revalation on rocky ground no more bouncing off the pedals on climbs, the extra bit you get from pulling on the up stroke when you need it.
The rocky desents were a learing curve, but found with the spd's wound to full loose you can dab like flats if needed.

I see lots of people disliking flats because they struggle to stay on them, someone even said you need shin pads to ride with them? I think this sums up the problem really, if you really can't keep your feet on flats then you are lacking in your bike skills. I am no bad ass on a bike but to me this is technique that really should be learnt but I see a lot of people go atraight to spds to mask there lack of technique rather than persevere in order to get better. It always amazes me how many people jump to spds before they can even bunny hop. There is nothing wrong at all with using spds if you prefer them or use them on race days but using them because you can't ride properly with flats is a bit of a cheat that wont do you any favours in the long run.

Bottom line riding properly on flats then deciding you prefer spds = cool.
Not being able to ride flats and then using spds to mask this rather than getting better = not cool.

Just my opinion but I think any negative comments about spds stem from the above.

John

Some interesting reading on flat pedals and spds with regards to efficiency.

https://www.bikejames.com/strength/the-flat-pedal-revolution-manifesto-how-to-improve-your-riding-with-flat-pedals/

I've got flats on my commuter bike as i find being able to get my foot quickly on the pedal and accelerate from lights/in traffic etc makes me feel much more in control and therefore safer. Im usually across and clear of the 'road furniture' of a junction before the waiting cars are, motorbike style. Tried spds for a day and hated it, if you're going to clear the junction before the cars you need to be on your pedals and stomping straight away, 1 2 seconds soft pedal while you clip in isn't going to do it. Stopped riding spds for MTB 5+ years ago.

I dislike flats because they are heavy gumpy lumpy efforts. Why would I add more weight and less efficiency and power to my bikes? In the dim and distant past when I had gear danglers and lots of boing at both ends I found flats ok, but for ss weight weenie gunrning...hell no

Those who say to ride flats you need to work on your techniques - well that argument works both ways - to ride SPD's you also need technique and a lot of practice to become familiar and confident. I've only ever ridden clippless pedals, and before that old fashioned toe clips (on road bikes of course), and feel perfectly confident on them and can get out of them immediately and without thinking in the event that I need to bale or dab a foot down. I see no way whatsoever how flats would benefit me. I do small jumps and a lot of technical riding and occasionally might take on some DH runs. If I suddenly decided I wanted to start taking on 10ft gap jumps with mid-air tricks, I would make the change, but I can't see that happening any time soon, I think i've missed the boat on that type of stuff.

I think the issue is that there are so many people new to biking over the past few years - its become trendy especially amongst the mid-life crisis set, where for most of them the last bike they rode was probably a Raleigh Burner or Grifter when they were kids before clip less pedals were even invented. Well they're obviously not going to jump straight onto clippless pedals are they and probably won't do enough riding to want to make the change and put in the practice to get used to them. This is exactly the case with a mate of mine. Last year he decided to take up cycling after never riding a bike since he was a small child, bought a road bike and an MTB. He rides clippless on his road bike but flats on his MTB. However it took him ages to get used to clippless on his road bike and he's still a bit wary at road junctions so will never consider clippless on his MTB, he only gets out on his bikes a handful of times a year anyway.

Ultimately it doesn't matter, just ride what you feel the most comfortable on. Is anyone going to tell Steve Peat he'd be better if he rode flats?

I've got caged SPDs on my commuter so it's almost best of both worlds: I don't [b]need[/b] to clip in to get away at junctions - strong leg is left clipped in with pedal at two o-clock, lights change, push on pedal, other foot on to other pedal and I'm away.

Flats are a [i]system[/i] in the same way that SPDs are - you can't simply get a set of flats and use any old shoe, you need a flats specific shoe. This is probably one reason why people struggle. You also need to be pushing in to the pedals more - SPDs let you relax when you aren't actually pushing as you know that your shoe isn't going to slip off the pedal.

Forget the flats/spd stuff, what we need is gloves that lock your hands on to the bars.

I won't be getting them either. 🙂

To descend on rough terrain with flats you need to lower your seat IMO, otherwise you end up bouncing around on your bits. I used to used flats all the time for bmx, slalom, jumping etc, but for Xc and 'normal riding' it's spds every time.

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Sam-Pilgrim-My-Cross-Country-Loop-2013.html

some people just ride a bike for fun.