More informative maps for off-road trails

You could possibly add notes to OSM (Open Street Map).

You mean like Trailforks? It does almost all that, I think.

A lot, but not all, of that info it would be possible to tag using OpenStreetMap.  You can can then choose to show it on your maps by rolling your own using mkgmap.  Some people, like openvttmap, try and style the info in ways that suit different sorts of activity e.g. hiking rather than mountainbiking, but it's tough as it relies on everyone agreeing the same sorts of tags and what they consider difficult.  If you are interested though then investigate OpenStreetMap and how things are tagged

for example, for sorts of gates

Tag:barrier=kissing_gate - OpenStreetMap Wiki

What I'm describing is probably a much harder problem than even OSM, as it's much more detailed and difficult to be comprehensive/consistent, and an even smaller number of people care about it. Also it shouldn't require geeking out with various tools to surface this information from the map data.

Yes it'd be a bit like Trailforks but every ROW and track would be on it, and with the extra information. Same big problem with getting the information populated and maintained.

As above, some of that is in OpenStreetMap. Some of the better mapping apps use the tags created there to give an indication of track width, surface etc. For instance, this is from Komoot

[url= https://i.postimg.cc/8CkKytZX/Screenshot-2023-05-09-212549.pn g" target="_blank">https://i.postimg.cc/8CkKytZX/Screenshot-2023-05-09-212549.pn g"/> [/img][/url]

Stuff like gates are also on OSM, including whether or not they are locked, but it depends on folk inputting and updating the data.

trailforks let’s you report problems with trails.

it needs to be populated with the trails first and that would probably require a lot of coordination.

clubs in north america use it a lot for reporting maintenance issues, but the whole trail building and maintenance thing is different there with a lot more organization of trail building and advocacy and cooperative land managers than in the uk. i can’t imagine a farmer checking trailforks to see if he needs to fix a gate on a bridleway. though someone at the local council might.

I do agree with the OP that more information would be great

For the moment I find the Strava heat map very useful for seeing where people actually actually ride.

I wonder if osm can be shown on Trailforks. As mentioned by someone else, all this relies on users reporting their findings...which is always going to be an issue.
It is only as good as the data it has access to.

For the moment I find the Strava heat map very useful for seeing where people actually actually ride.

LOLOLOLOL

Just don't follow any very, very faint lines 🙂

Don't feel a need for that level of detail, personally, but these might be of interest:

https://www.croydecycle.co.uk/mapsandguides.htm

https://www.yellowpublications.co.uk/products/around-about/

As above, OSM does this. I've been using it quite a lot lately, I've got into the habit of updating trail designations when your chosen route planning software refuses to snap your route to a bridleway and you have to change to walker mode or manually trace it.

Often you'll find it's been added and the author has said yes to Peds or horses and left it defaulted to no for bicycles. (I usually change them all to designated unless it's a permissive bridleway)

I've also found a couple of bridleways that were completely missing from OSM but are on the council's definitive map.

I wonder if osm can be shown on Trailforks.

You can - Trailforks has an OSM basemap layer (at least it does in the paid version of the Android app...may be in other versions as well)

Trailforks also has a heat-map layer, which may be more useful

I seem to remember the German Alpine maps I had for walking / biking in Majorca had some kind basic trail grading on them. It doesn't have all the info you mention above but even a simple indication of whether it's an estate track / boulder strewn mess / vague intention of a path that got overgrown in the 19th century would be really useful.

The Harvey's Maps are better than OS in this respect as they indicate clearly where there is a right of way whether there is a clear path on the ground or not. They also show "intermittent paths" differently. You can add them as a layer on some mapping apps like Outdooractive.

+1 for Harvey's maps. Not as info-rich as your OP, but more than OS.

If you really want that level of certainty in your outdoor experience, have you considered a trail centre Centerparcs? 😜

I quite like the adventure of not knowing every detail of my trail.

Thing is, natural trail conditions can change on a daily basis. Yesterday a hardpack singletrack around the edge of a field could turn into a total mudbath after a bit of rain and the farmer takes his tractor along it. All feels a bit nanny state to me - if you want predictive trails, ride a trail centre.

OS maps show whether there's a trail on the ground and whether it's double or singletrack. Well, the 1:25k ones do, not sure about the 1:50k.

Single black dotted line - singletrack.

Double black dotted line - doubletrack.

Obviously not 100% reliable, but usually a good indicator I find.

Found some of these maps in a bike shop in Dorking - just does Surrey...

https://www.oaktreeroutes.co.uk

Very useful in an avoiding "very bumpy field margin, often muddy" or similar.

Many a time, I’ve walked or ridden a trail on the map only to find it an utter pain in the arse

Then you'll know for next time. I agree with @matt_outandabout. I like the uncertainty of exploring. What you're describing is why trail centres and bike parks exist

Exploring is fun. Sometimes type II fun, like negotiating the spark gaps between path ends on adjoining estates.

OS Maps aren't always up-to-date though...I spent a few days in the Lomond Hills with Duke of Edinburgh expeditions - 1:50k shows a trail, 1:25k doesn't show the trail at all - it turns out to be a farm track going round the side of the hill and a very useful track. So I suspect the maps aren't updated that often (although the track has been there for a good few years).

Then you’ll know for next time. I agree with @matt_outandabout. I like the uncertainty of exploring. What you’re describing is why trail centres and bike parks exist

This. If you want absolute certainty about what the route is going to be like, go to a trail centre. "Natural" routes are just that, natural*. You can make pretty good judgement from a decent interpretation of an OS 1:25k map anyway, but if it turns out to be different to what you expected then so be it, that's the great outdoors for you

*I know they're rarely actually natural, but you know what I mean.

Part of the fun is going out and seeing what new routes are like for the first time, if I could just look it up I'd probably skip some that I might have otherwise enjoyed.

scotroutes
LOLOLOLOL

Just don’t follow any very, very faint lines 🙂

Not sure what's hilarious about that, but it's an incredibly useful way of plotting routes in areas that you might not know anything about, urban or otherwise.

For instance, something up your way (I think). Looking at this map, you might be tempted to ride your bike along that path up Strath Nethy, knowing nothing about the area.

[img] [/img]

Check the heatmaps, see no one actually does. There's probably a reason for that (there is!). Time for a rethink...

[img] [/img]

Plenty of people do walk up it, but turns out there's a better path on the other side of the burn. Good to know.

[img] [/img]

I use this approach in urban areas too, when I can be arsed.

Not sure what’s hilarious about that

Sorry. I just pity anyone who has followed some of my more "exploratory" tracks 🤣

there’s a better path on the other side of the bur

And, in this particular instance, "better" is relative. I think Sanny once write "Strath Nethy is Gaelic for glen of despair"

airvent
Free Member
Part of the fun is going out and seeing what new routes are like for the first time, if I could just look it up I’d probably skip some that I might have otherwise enjoyed.

There is that, something I'm conscious of. Some of my favourite 'trails' are tracks I didn't like the look of on the map.

Forewarned is forearmed though, if you go in expecting 6 hours of hike a bike, and it turns out to be a banger, there's no better feeling.

[img] [/img]

I.e this. That'll be my GPS track shown on the heatmap. It definitely wasn't a banger, and I was thankful I wore my wellingtons, but what a fantastic day we had squarebagging.

I quite like the adventure of not knowing every detail of my trail.

All feels a bit nanny state to me – if you want predictive trails, ride a trail centre.

Then you’ll know for next time. I agree with @matt_outandabout. I like the uncertainty of exploring. What you’re describing is why trail centres and bike parks exist

If you want absolute certainty about what the route is going to be like, go to a trail centre.

Part of the fun is going out and seeing what new routes are like for the first time, if I could just look it up I’d probably skip some that I might have otherwise enjoyed.

Yes the detail is excessive, but the intent is essentially to answer "is this line on the map going to be a crap bike ride". To maximise enjoyment in the limited time available, and have more confidence in trying new routes that aren't well-known and documented. You might have more time to spare and live close to good riding areas, not everyone does.

It's been a wet week, what would be a good route?
I want to ride my bike not push/carry it for half the ride, which way should I go?
I can't climb a stile with my eMTB, which way should I go to avoid having to turn back?
I'm on a gravel bike, should I try this route?
etc.

Those are questions with useful answers, and make a big difference to whether you enjoy your day out.

Geograph can give info about the actual paths on the ground.  Often you get a good idea of what the path is like

https://www.geograph.org.uk/

It’s been a wet week, what would be a good route?
I want to ride my bike not push/carry it for half the ride, which way should I go?
I can’t climb a stile with my eMTB, which way should I go to avoid having to turn back?
I’m on a gravel bike, should I try this route?
etc.

Those are questions with useful answers, and make a big difference to whether you enjoy your day out.

Mostly fair questions, but probably not ones that are likely to be answered by an online map because of the level of nuance involved / variable conditions / skill levels / ideas of what's acceptable etc. In the real world you'll often get acceptable answers asking on here / FB groups / twitter feeds like Keeper of the Peak etc.

Except for the bit about climbing a stile with an e-bike, obviously 😉